Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: bradsmith2010 on May 14, 2017, 04:37:58 pm
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my main interest is in bows similar to the Native designs
I find the most simple D bows will pretty much shoot as well as any wood bow I have made or shot,accuracy and cast,,,
I'm talking straight tip flat bows mostly,,
not Turkish flight bows or composit bows,,
the more I learn, the more I know they had things pretty figured out,, thats just my take, lots of testing with chrono too,, (-P
I was testing a small flat bow,, Ishi inspired and was still amazed at the cast,, and just wanted to share my never ending enthusiasm bout Native Style Bows,, :BB
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I've been playing with some cypress that is very versatile great for flat bows. And quick to work.
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I always wondered how that wood would work,,please keep us posted on that,, (--)
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There are too many variations to lump all NA bows together. Speaking of cast though I have an experience to speak directly of. I made a short (48") for a friend of mine of osage. Flat profile bend through handle. We were all flight shooting our bows and the little bow I made was shooting greater distances than all the other bows even other bows I had made. It would consistantly shoot about 20 yards farther than any other bow. Yes we took arrows into account and shot all arrows out of all bows. I can't tell you why this was happening it just was.
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I think that design is very efiecent design lighter mass more working limb etc , the only down side is stability & comfort on realease its the type of bow I hunted with last season , but the thing I have always wonder & would think all though no way of proving it is that they probably have a longer duty life compared to a handled bow of the same dimension speaking to self bows I think on the shorter ones some speed is lost to stacking but they are fun bows to build & more challenging to get the tiller right then you would think (=)
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I've made a few Eastern Woodland style bows, simple with single side nocks and was impressed with how well they shot; no hand shock and smooth as silk.
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nice points,, there are alot of designs,, and shorter bows do have their limitations,, but not all Native bows are short,, some war bows ,, I have not built that many like that,, but I think I could make a 68 inch,,28 inch draw flat long bow bow style that would shoot pretty hard,, and no stack,, but dont have any chrono stats on that,, but if you want to make a nice bow,, the Native designs are a good starting point,I think,, (-S
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he Native designs are a good starting point,I think
and maybe even hard to improve on, in a lot of ways we modern types don't often stop to consider ;)
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yes and one thing I have been giving alot of thought too,, also the way you shoot one has a lot to do with the performance,,I am just speculating,,
but when you shoot one almost like a snap shooting,, the cast is greatly increased,,
if you pull it back to an anchor hold and release like we might normally shoot, the speed of the arrow decreases,, this would be evident in shooting for distance,, or with a chrono,,
I find my accuracy at close range very good,, with no anchor snap shooting and increased cast,,making the bow even more effecient,, and I have a feeling alot of ancient archers killing game at close range may have had a similar more effecient release to get the most out of the bow,, :-D ,, just thinking too much, -C-
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This one is a Cherokee inspired war bow 66 in.48 lb @29 I Chrono it at a averages of 157 fps b-50 11 gpp not a rocket launcher but good solid hunting bow, it has about 1 1/2 string follow but honestly it is a bit snappy in the hand It's bare bow no handle wrap but I think if I built one again I would add 4 in. of reflex in hopes of keeping 2 in. & use FF string and a built up cork handle it would probably out perform a handled bow of the same length and add some serious Fps with the bendy having 8 more inches of working limb & narrower limbs , less mass , I was just thinking about your performance comment , but there is a lot of room to experiment with the design maybe I'm veering off the NA bow but still the basic bow with some improvements
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I think with fast flight,, and 10gpp, you gonna be 165,, and maybe better with really good release,, I would say thats shooting really well,, for a simple bent stick,, sometimes the follow doesnt seem to hurt the performance as much as one would think,,nice bow,,,,, with a good heavy arrow that gonna kill a buffalo, whew,,
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I made a Cherokee inspired war bow recently as well. I wish I had a chrono, but it pulls about 65# at 27" and I'm pretty sure it would shoot a heavy arrow fast enough to be a functional weapon of war. Like Pat said, it shoots very smooth with no shock. :OK
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You guys made a good point about the heavier arrows I tried a 750 grain arrow in that bow and it was dead in the hand I have a 62 in hickory/sinew bow that shoots a 530 grain arrow completly dead in the hand on the longer heavier wood osage ones they seem to me to be more arrow weight sensitive I was told some of the old timers used to use thin sheets of lead in the handle for damping , but it would be easier for me to learn to make the bow around the arrow I try to make all my hunting bows around a 530 grain arrow , hey Brad do you have a side profile picture of your Ishi inspired handle, thats a beutifull bend on your bow Upstate !
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Ishi inspired osage
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Thanks Brad I wanted to see a concept of the thickness !
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Im no flight shooter,nor do i hold the chrono as the only criteria to what constitutes a good bow,therefore,the simple working handle D bow fits the bill for me and my shooting.
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I could be proved wrong but no they won't perform as good. Simply because the arrow has to have a low spine weight to clear the bows handle. That been said build them if that's the look you trying to achieve. If they could have had better flight maybe the sharps and Winchester would not have won out . :-[ (SH) Arvin
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yes and one thing I have been giving alot of thought too,, also the way you shoot one has a lot to do with the performance,,I am just speculating,,
but when you shoot one almost like a snap shooting,, the cast is greatly increased,,
if you pull it back to an anchor hold and release like we might normally shoot, the speed of the arrow decreases,, this would be evident in shooting for distance,, or with a chrono,,
I find my accuracy at close range very good,, with no anchor snap shooting and increased cast,,making the bow even more effecient,, and I have a feeling alot of ancient archers killing game at close range may have had a similar more effecient release to get the most out of the bow,, :-D ,, just thinking too much, -C-
Brad that applies to all bows. The release that is. So what is going to help one will also help the other style. I am not here to bash native bows though.just my thoughts. Arvin
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Arvin, a longer arrow will decreases the effective spine without diminishing the arrow and will shoot well from a wider handled bow.
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Pat are you saying that the longer arrow does not have to bend more than a stiffer arrow. My thoughts are if the arrow of any length has to bend more to clear the handle . Then the arrow flight will be jeopardized due to energy loss from the arrow coming back to its original straight shape. This all happens after release. Thru a chrono this will not be witnessed but in flight distance it will. The arrow recovery robs cast. Arvin
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I shoot 30" arrows for my 26" draw and have never noticed any loss of accuracy.
Every inch over 28"(standard arrow is 28" long with a 125gr point)will reduce the effective spine by 5# so a 30" arrow with a actual spine of 50# will shoot like a 40# spined arrow. You can also reduce the effective spine by adding weight to the front. The standard requires a 125gr point on a 28" arrow to be the actual spine. If you add a 150gr point the effective spine will be reduced by 5#(5# per 25gr increase or decrease). So a 30" arrow with a spined shaft of 50# with a 150gr point will shoot like a 35# spined arrow.
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Im no flight shooter,nor do i hold the chrono as the only criteria to what constitutes a good bow,therefore,the simple working handle D bow fits the bill for me and my shooting.
I was always under the conclusion that any stable bow tillered correctly is a good bow.Whether it is a few fps faster then another or not.Many aspects to archery.Many hold the chrono as a tool though.To see how efficient a bow can get.No need to ball cut the process to know that.
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Mr Beadman I agree it's not all about speed!!! If you asking about cast speed has to be a factor. So does arrow spine. I understand matching arrow to bow. May not be the best at it . But I'm still learning so help oh hard head Arvin.
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Pat are you saying that the longer arrow does not have to bend more than a stiffer arrow. My thoughts are if the arrow of any length has to bend more to clear the handle . Then the arrow flight will be jeopardized due to energy loss from the arrow coming back to its original straight shape. This all happens after release. Thru a chrono this will not be witnessed but in flight distance it will. The arrow recovery robs cast. Arvin
+1.Distance shooting is different.A combination of arrow and bow efficiency is required.The chrono is mostly about the bow.
Again many aspects and challenges I feel can be gotten after in archery.Just having fun I figure to me.No need to down play someone trying to have fun on a fair playing field amongst friends.This means to me the archer is mostly challenging himself.Each challenge themselves as much as they want.In fact it's where concrete conclusions are gotten from.Why would that be bad thing?Answer....It's not!!!
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all arrows flex and bend when they come out of a bow,, even center shot,,
thats why its so tricky to find the right arrow for flight shooting,,
my point is,, some Native style bows, perfrom very well for there draw weight,, and have great cast as well as speed,,as well as accuracy,,and durability,,
if you have a bow with will shoot 170 fps with a 10 gpp arrow, you can tell its gonna cast the right arrow very well,,
I just tested a sinew back bow 55#@26 inches,, 180 fps with 500 grain arrow ( I had been shooting this bow for a year),, for me that is very nice performance,,, the arrow is going around the handle,, it is a simple Native inspired design,, 55 nock to nock,, I am not saying its the best design for flight shooting,, just that for a simple straight tip bow,, it shoots well and has nice cast,,
I have another bow I have been shootinig and it is just a self bow with rawhide back,,
it follows the string a bit after more than a year of shooting and hunting,, it is 55 nock to nock and 53# at 26 inches, and will shoot a 430 grain arrow 175 fps,,thats not amazing speed, but it would translate into nice cast for a bow,, and for close range hunting ,, very nice cast with a hunting weight arrow,,, my ultimate goal is not speed, but I love a simple design that has accruacy and speed and durability,,that will shoot for decades,,,
I am lucky I have some bows I am still hunting with after more than 20 years,, :-D
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Ok ,, Arvin, I will bite,, do you have any stats to verify your opinion on performance or cast, I am always open to learning something based on some documentation,, like maybe some bows you have tested,, or what the flight or chrono stats were,, ,,, flight shooting is way out my league but I do understand basic performance from a wood bow, ,and love to compare bows to bows,, any kind of bow,, I just like making the Native Style bows,, not really based on how they look,, but how they shoot for me,, (-P
comparing bows to rifles , does not seem like a reasonable comparison to me,, or I would not judge the performance of any bow against a modern rifle,, about a 2000 fps difference in speed ,, with a modern rifle quite a bit more,, :NN
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Beadman....
Hit a nerve there,did i?
If some need flight shooting and chronos as verification,thats fine..Its just that i dont.The design i prefer has proven itself through time .My enjoyment and game in the freezer is all the verification i need. :)
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What is a good source for the various Native American bow designs? I plan on getting started on a bow this summer, probably about 45 - 50 lbs @ 26/27". Still got to find the stave. Prefer a somewhat shorter than 60" ntn.
Hawkdancer
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parallel shaft arrows are pretty popular now a days, but I would like to hear more about he tapers and barrelling that might be commonly found on the NA arrows used with these designs
Encyclopedia of Native American Bows, Arrows & Quivers by Steve Allely and Jim Hamm is good for looking at various designs. a little light on actual dimensions though...
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Traxx,, I call the deer the organic chronograph,, (-S
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Traxx....No not really.Just trying to explain to those who like to push the envelope and improve on things is all.It's all good.
Soooooo exactly how many deer self bow kills have you had to say such a statement?I can kill a deer with a broom handle bow of 35#'s if that's all I want.
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(-P
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You got it Brad.You might have to make an extra batch!!!
I'm really rather busy here making a string on a new bow to shoot it in then through the CHRONOGRAPH so don't eat too much popcorn.OK?
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Well Beadman....
I cant say exactly,but will say this,the first 10 or so deer i killed,were with a self bow,that was made by my grandfather,long before i was born.this was back in the early 70's.more small game than deer.I can also tell you,that this bow wouldnt have won any flight shoots or impressed anyone,with its chrono readings either.What was impressive about it was that it was very forgiving of slight shooter errors or deviations in form and it was so quiet,that it often gave a shooter a second shot,when the first arrow went astray.I actually had deer,look at where the arrow hit and stand to give me a second shot,because they didnt hear where it came from and their attention was focused where it hit. Sometimes,its not speed that kills,but quiet.
I know this is going to be hard for some to believe,but there are a few of us around,who have been doing this whole"Primitive Archery" thing,long before the Internet or Magazines or certain books were written.When i was a kid,other kids called me Ishi boy,because i was a luddite of sorts,concerning archery tackle.I remember when i first saw an add for a New Magazine Coming out soon,that was called Primitive Archer and i thought.Well ill be,there are other people still doing this stuff too.
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Traxx, I'm with you on this one sir. Most all my hunting bows are between 48 and 52-54 incher's. I still can shoot my 50# bows but have killed deer with a couple that were 48" and about 40# that were gifted to me....even posted pics. There is a lot of white-guy misconceptions around and they are freely passed about....I'm gonna keep shooting my crumby little native styled bows and eatin my venison. ;) oh ya, almost forgot about my short, stubby little arrows....gonna bring them along too.
rich
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just as I suspected, they do shoot really well,, (=)
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So....Having said That and since the title of this thread was asking,"Native Amreican bow designs, how do they shoot? "I answered it by insinuating that they shoot fine for the purpose they were intended for and still work well for those same purposes.They fed and protected their families well when they had no popcorn to eat,while twisting up a string to shoot through a Chronograph. :)
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well I do think the chronograph has validated how effecient some of the designs are,,and how well they shoot for me, makes a comparison available for those that are interested,,, hunting and shooting is what I like,,
I like being able to test my bows,, I dont really have a place to shoot for distance most the time,,
but I have fun shooting, and just shooting them as well,, I am still learning,, I hope to test one on an elk this year,, I drew a tag,, for first of sept,, (=)
I started making Cherokee inspired bows maybe 20 years ago, and I make a better shooting bow now than then,, because of all the info available,,,they are my favorite, thats why I started this thread,, the more I learn,, the more I appreciate the bows and the culture they came from,, :-D
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I think Chrono numbers are great ,I'm learning bow making threw corespondents with other bowyers or reading or the threads here so it shows me how efficiently I'm making bows the first time I re tillered a bow 4 lbs lighter & picked up 5 fps I was sold on the Chrono the first time I made a bow over 170 fps I was amazed it realy takes a lot of guess work out of it for me but that's just me I see others opinions on just making the bow & enjoying it ,I don't see any argument ether , the OP brought up the Chrono numbers , I would rather see broke in Chrono numbers rather then this bow has great cast or it's snappy or a subjective coment like that !
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Thats Fantastic Stick Bender......
I commend you .Great to see you are having fun with your archery.To be honest,My initial reply was more tongue in cheek and just to rattle some chains,as i know there are some who take this to extremes of almost Biblical proportions. >:D
I do wonder at times though,if the early Native peoples definition of "Efficient",may have differed from our modern version.I often wonder if there was more practicality involved with their version of Efficiency.
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I'm sure they did maybe distance I don't know ,but I suspect your right these same conversations have been going on for thousands of years just with different knowledge & tools but they had a certain advantage of father to son teaching and so forth we get to blog and share ideas & we don't have to rely on it to survive like they did (=)
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I often wonder if there was more practicality involved with their version of Efficiency.
Practicality with how they shoot or just in general for other reasons?
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Actually Willie....
I was thinking of bow design.
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Lets take for example....
The double curve bow.By all modern standards,its considered a poor shooter and inefficient.Yet.....This was the predominate style of bow from the southwest,straight through the country,up into Canada.There are surviving examples of bows from this region,that are designed to be faster,so we know the knowledge existed,but they are the exception. Considering,they relied upon these weapons for survival...Why was this the case?
Was it ease of construction,or maybe more forgiving or maybe even less prone to breaking or failure?There must be a reason,that they traded arrow speed for other aspects in the style they preferred.
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Why was this the case?....There must be a reason
LOL.. I thought you might have had some educated guesses in store for us.
Traxx, these are some of the same qualities I think about sometimes.
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I think if you hunted and shot one say consistetly for a year,, that bow only,, some of its secrets would reveal themselves,, I agree, there was a reason the design was used frequently,, I have not made or shot that design, but that is on my list to learn about,, I am guessing that in the heavier weights,, it had fine cast,, and as mentioned less prone to break,,??? maybe a bit more stable for a shorter bow as far as accuracy,, I am guessing,, :-D some of the modern design bow use deflex to their advantage,, (SH)
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Traxx....Well that's wonderful Traxx I congradulate & commend your own history to archery life.Hunting involves a lot more then just the speed on a bow,but I don't mind having it there when I need it and I should stop right here,but some people like improving their tools.Some don't.It's their choice.Quietness is a big part of my success hunting with self bows also,and have had the same scenario of a miss turning into a hit later.Been eating deer mostly for meat all of my life.
They nick named me little Daniel Boone when I was a kid.I started shooting a bow in general in 2009.With a crash course it seems since then.My hunting history has been all my life yet from a kid.Mostly and extensively raising and training coon hounds.Making record book achievements there nationally.The physical effort of deer hunting is a fraction compared to hunting hounds.Still I have managed to kill over a dozen deer or so with self bows around here.Along with countless small game.
You sound like some guys I've hunted my hounds against that would claim they shot 300 coon to their dog during hunting season.I draw out with them at a sanctioned UKC hunt and after 1/2 hour of a 2 hour hunt they withdraw being so far behind in treeing coon and points.My hounds treed far more then 300 but they did'nt get them all shot to them.Sometimes the killing numbers don't tell the story in the ability of a hound just like the killing numbers with archery don't tell the story about a bow.Everybody has their own achievement markers they shoot for.Some get off the bus sooner then others.
I believe the natives definition of efficiency was being the provider and protector people could depend on and that involved a good bow I'm sure.I also believe stealth and concealment played a big part in their success and that is a bigger part of hunting then the bow.
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I play african drums with some guys from Guinea,,,,they have been playing the same type drum for 1000's of years,,,there are subtle differences in the sound of the drums,,,, and the best drummer always gets the best drum,, even if its yours,, I wonder if some of the same mind set existed with the Native
Archers,, if there was a stand out bow,, I wonder if the best Archer was intitled to that bow,, and was it easy for then to adjust to any draw length,,???? or draw weight,,
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I think those native American bows performed surprisingly well. Bows drawing only 23" with no set can get up to about 150 fps with a good release even 140 wouldn't be bad and plenty enough for taking game. The short bows with short draws I have seen did very well as long as they didn't take set.
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Badger, I guess you were taking a nap,,, I was hoping you would chime in,,, (SH)
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Brad, lately I have been taking more naps that building bows!
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something to be said about taking naps ;)
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Guys this is all about preference . I don't want bash any Bow or its maker.
Clean arrow flits gives you both accuracy and cast. Pat I am at a shoot with
Gilbert. He is sporting a very nice bow you made. Indian style. He is pulling
It 26" my draw length. I don't think he minds if I shoot it. Would you. I would like to see how she shoots. Arvin
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Badger.,,well Naps are good for recharging , ,, thanks for your input,, your depth of knowledge is always appreciated,,
Time for my nap,, (AT)
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Cmon Guys....
Dont let the other silly stuff detract from the intent of this thread.
I remember,when this site first started and almost every bow posted was an old Native style design.
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Traxx,, I got distracted, I been out shooting my Native Style bow,, (AT)
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I guess I'll sound stupid and ask what are you guys going back and forth about? I just read through the whole thing and it seems everyone agrees that native style bows perform quite well.....
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your right Paul,, I think some of us just got bored,,( and missed their nap)
I am gonna do some chrono test tomorrow and will post,, I have a nice 48 inch sinew bow tillerd out to 20 inches,, gonna test it at 20,, and then tiller it out to 23 and see what she will do,,,
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you know Brad....
I have actually sat in actual ancient hunting blinds in a few locations and i can tell you,they would not have worked well,with a static full draw style.it would have blown the hunters cover and resulted in no shot opportunity.If a person puts themselves,in the positions and circumstances that the ancient hunters used,things start to become more apparent about their methods and justifications of such..
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Brad This is a native bow squiggly sapling /sinew bow I'm hopping to get to brace next week end so far 7 1/2 reflex looking for 48 lb @29 hopping to pull your numbers or better with a heaver 11gpp arrow this one is center shot also I think a lot of these type native bows where built for reliability in the past but if the design is pushed applying the knowledge we have now ,they are very capable of great performance , the Ishi design like yours has always fascinated me I would like to try one at some point
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I just woke up from my nap and read all this. Good to see you Traxx and Half Eye it's been awhile.
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This thread and the bow I'm working on got me thinking a lot about this design but the one thing you don't see talked about much is tillering close to the the handle if the bow is tillered in a arch of a circle tiller in theory the limb would be moving in a faster return path more bending near the handle but more hand shock making a faster bow as opposed to more elipitical tiller with more comfort less speed Brad have you noticed any speed difference between the two bows knowing you have made both ?
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I like that bow you working on Sick Bender,, I think you need to send it to me and let me see if I can kill a deer with it before you waste any more time on it,, :)
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You don't want this one Brad to much aggravation to enjoy ::)
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ok here is my 48 inch sinew osage,,
it holds about 2 inches of reflex,, only has one elk back tendon on it,,
I just shot it,,47#@20 inches,, 156fps with 485 grain arrow,,,,
even at a short power stroke,, still spitting an arrow at deer killing speed,,
even its not center shot,, at deer killing range, that will have no effect on its ability to kill game,,
now you if I take the bow out to 23 or 24 inches as planed,, the ratio of speed to weight is probably gonna go up and it will have better cast at its draw weight,,
these bows are underated,,,they can shoot very hard even at a short draw,,
for example if I just drew it to 23 inches with no tiller the weight would go to bout,,55,,,that alone gonna give me about 7fps,,
and the longer power stroke at least 7fps,, making the bow shoot,,close to 165 170 fps with the 485 grain arrow,,( I think that would kill and elk, whew (AT)0
this shortie will shoot about the same as a very good long self bow,,with a longer draw,,and longer power stroke,,
it was not hard to make, ,took a very small stave and very little sinew,, effecient,, to make and shoot,,
I will tiller it out to 23 and see if I am close on the projected increase in cast,, -C-
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Stick Bender,, I missed your question bout the speed difference in tiller,, I have not noticed a difference,, I think the key is how much set the bow is taking,, if the unbraced profile is about the same I think the cast would be pretty close,,I think you are right in theory,, the stiffer handle bow should shoot a bit harder cause less working limb,, I think on a longer bow it might make more of a difference,, on the very short bow, I am not sure,,
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Brad.....
Was it you,that posted about a short sinew backed bow with impressive numbers,some time back?
On LW perhaps?
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Ok thanks sense where on this topic this little guy is seasoned up now it's 44 in I'm thinking 45 lb @ 21 ,1 in retro flip 700 grain sinew 4 in. Of starting reflex 10 gpp what would be your estimated speed guess ? nice clean stave 1 minor pin ? Also that's a nice bow you posted there please let us know how it is when you get it stretched out !
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just guessing 160 fps plus,, I havent tested one with that much reflex,, but based on what my bow shot today,,thats my guess,, it will be interesting to see,,
Traxx, I dont think I posted any sinew bow stats lately,,just here,,
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This would have been years ago.
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Brad, you little bow performs very well! One thing often overlooked is a big jump in efficiency with shorter bows. I have a little plum sinew bow about 50" long I need to chrono.
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plum and sinew sounds really nice,, I have never seen one, please post if you get to shoot it,,
I have a plum bow Marc made, it is self bow and man it shoots great,, (AT)
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I like to look at it from a hunter's aspect...It's natural for me to barley peer through or over brush as I hunt from the ground...A bent 48'' bow while canted is normally never higher than my head...I have been busted more than once by 68" limb waggle on the draw... :-D I think the shorter bows are more concealed for the ground hunter vs tree hugger...Short bows in close never gave me a problem as long as I spent time practicing...Ya gotta pay your dues... :NN
Don
No disrespect meant to tree stand hunters
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I like to look at it from a hunter's aspect...It's natural for me to barley peer through or over brush as I hunt from the ground...A bent 48'' bow while canted is normally never higher than my head...I have been busted more than once by 68" limb waggle on the draw... :-D I think the shorter bows are more concealed for the ground hunter vs tree hugger...Short bows in close never gave me a problem as long as I spent time practicing...Ya gotta pay your dues... :NN
Don
No disrespect meant to tree stand hunters
This is one reason why I really like the idea of a 50" long 28" or even 26" draw bow.. Should also be crazy fast, good for small game with lighter arrows?
Modoc bows seem basically like pyramid bows. Short and sinewed, they should perform perfectly well with light arrows. I wanna make a 26" draw version. With sinewed incense cedar it could be pretty cool - how wide would such a pyramid bow with a sligthly bendy handle have to be for 26", if 50" long? If 53" long? Should be a little rocket...
The Miwok design seems pretty effective and attractive too. Sinewed incense cedar or juniper, static recurves. Not sure of the draw length / bow length they got, though. maybe 1.25" wide handle and like 42" long - guessing.
http://www.primitivearcher.com/smf/index.php/topic,60499.0.html
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I am just a German Irish cross. Don't know a whole lot about Native American bows. Did they build selfbows? If so how was there performance. Less than sinue backed? I'm a longgggbbboowww guy so I will sit back and read. But when it comes to hunting I have killed whitetail, Nyala , and a wilderbeast with a selfbow. 68" ntn Osage . It don't have to be short to hunt .
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I know one thing is sure. If I had to make bows using the tools they had available I would make them super simple, super short and learn to shoot 6" short of my draw the same as they did. Same with the arrows. Its much easier to find and make good shoot arrows 20-24" long as compared to 28-31" long.
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Selfbowman,, some of the eastern style bows were long,,like a flat longbow,, some very similar to your 68 ossage,,
Pearl,, thats a really good point,,
Loon, I am conservative I would go with the 53 inch,, but have a feeling the 50 inch bow would work if a little wider for the 26 inch draw,,
as far as the draw length on the 42 inch bow,, I am guessing it would hold up to 21 inch draw,
When I read about Ishi testing some bows,, he did over draw some quite a bit,, I usually am hesitant to draw them more than half the bows length,, if I am getting good cast,, I dont see any need to over stress the bow,,
once you get the power stroke to 20 inches or so a bow will start to shoot pretty good,, or have good enough cast to hunt with at a reasoanble draw weight,, :G
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I haven't read the whole thread,but shooting style comes to mind.try a anchor at your chest,thrust the bow arm forward and release!its fun and surprisingly accurate.maybe this is old hat,but somewhat new for myself.
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Bushboy,, that is what I have been practicing lately,, it is fun,, I am surprised how accurute it can be,,I am only shooting at close range now,, but am going to try some long range stump shooting soon,, (-S
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Ok I have never posted this before,
this is a buffalo I shot with and osage self bow bout 20 years ago,
I did not know how to make a very effecient bow so just shot the heaviest bow I had at the time,,
it was about 70# at 25 inches, and I think very slow by todays standards
I used a 800 grain birch shaft,, with simmons two blade head,,
the bow had alot going against it,,
it was slow
it had side checks
it had a sapwood back,,
but,,,, it did shoot an arrow all the way through this buffalo at about 25 yards,,
I really thought it would bounce off,, but primitive bows are more powerful than most would think,, and very effective even on the largest game,,
the arrow literally looked like it was floating toward the buffalo,, and then just disappeared,, I can see it like it was yestereday,, anyway I thought it would be a nice addition to the thread,, (SH)
the hinge like appearance is really just a natural delflex in the wood,,
I still have this bow and plan to do some test with it and see if it has picked up any weight in the last 20 years,, and shoot it with a fast flight string to see what it will do,,
back then Tim Baker said in volume one,, that a 70# bow should shoot a 500 grain about 177 fps with 500 grain arrow,, or 210 yards,, I think this bow was not shooting that fast,, and we now that with fast flight ,, heat treating,, etc, bows in general shoot harder, bows in the 55# range shooting that hard,,
I guess my point is,, a bow shooting a 500 grain arrow in the 170's will kill a buffalo,, (AT) whatever weight you have to make the bow to achieve that cast,,
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ok I shot the 48 inche sinew bow with a 333 grain arrow,, 176 fps,,,,47#@20 inch draw,, (SH)
its really pretty accurate out to 10 yards for me,, after that I need more practice,,
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Cool picture, Brad.
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thanks Pearl ,,,, its a nice memory,, and was a real confidence builder for my weapon of choice,, never had any doubts after that that a good wood bow could do,,,
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Big medicine in that bow Brad.Great picture.Still got his hide?
If you ever get a chance check into Dr.Ashbys findings on the tuffhead site about arrow penetration even with a lightweight bow.
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Interesting thread.
Lately I've been pushing the limits of my bow designs and breaking them (then I've got to get more wood and wait for it to dry.... ) This technique is necessary in the journey to making better bows. But the Native Americans had hundreds (or maybe thousands) of years to develop designs. It seems, however, they didn't capitalize on some very important design features that are necessary for the greatest efficiency and power. This is an important observation and seems puzzling to many people.
For example, some NA bows have thick tips, odd tillering, short draws, highly crowned backs, bark remaining on the back, carvings and embellishments on the tips and/or sides, heavy wraps of sinew or rawhide near the tips, tassels and other loose decorations, and various other characteristics that use up energy. Why is that?
Simple answer: You didn't use the same bow for everything (hunting was only one use). Unfortunately, not many examples of working bows survive, so we don't know the full range of uses and needs, but there are a few things we can look at to help us understand "how they shoot".
(1) The arrow shafts can tell us a lot. Many NA arrows have shallow nocks that only work well with pinch-type grips. Pinch grips limit the draw weight (and arrow speed) for everyone except the very strong. Also, many NA arrow sets have spines and shaft weights that do not match (or vary greatly). This means that they were not shooting very close or very far but somewhere in the middle. Some arrows are very long and some very short. Usually this means that the bows would be very long or very short but this was not always the case. Here, we have to look deeper. Some arrow shaft materials were extremely light weight and the added length helped increase the arrow weight, for example.
(2) The careful study of stone arrowheads can reveal things. A lot of true arrowheads have "needle" tips. This type if tip helps increase penetration. If the bows were extremely powerful this feature would be an unnecessary hardship. Needle tips are both difficult to make and easy to break.
(3) The old accounts of the first Europeans sometimes contain useful information. Many accounts tell of Indians dressed in various disguises when hunting so they could get very close to the prey. If they had powerful, long range bows and very accurate arrows, why would they need to get extremely close?
(4) Current primitive cultures that still use the bow and arrow can provide clues. If you watch current makers and users of bows in cultures that use them for everyday hunting, you will see that there isn't much time spent getting things "perfect". Usually, an archery set is made quickly (relatively) and to kill a specific type of animal. And almost always this killing is done at very close range.
Before this gets too long winded, I'll end it here. Obviously there is a lot to think about (which makes it fun). In conclusion it is my opinion that NA bows were not all that powerful. I would say 40lb draws were the norm, even for the longest bows. Therefore, with the lack of the need for power, all sorts of designs will work. Perhaps that is why we see such variety.
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Obviously there is a lot to think about (which makes it fun)
I agree, and thanks for some of your thoughts on the arrow aspect.
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Well I can speak from my own penetration test I was Chrono testing a Mohegan style 46 lb bow with b50 & a530 grain arrow when it cleared the Chrono at 153 fps didn't seem very fast to me but the arrow skipped over the top of the arrow bag & blasted right threw my heavy double ply PVC fence & stuck in the ground in the back yard I have no doubt it would shoot right threw a white tail but not as deadly as look I got from my wife (AT)
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ok Jack, but they did capitalize on important design features as the bows I just posted demonstrate,,( short draws can be effecient)
probably some of the bows you are refering too were for ceremony,, not hunting,,
not all Nataves shot a pinch grip,,
some bows were strong,,
I use a wide variety of spine length and weight, and I can shoot close ,,,, ,or far,,,I know how each arrow shoots as I am sure they did,,
even a powerful bow,,, needs a sharp tip to kill a buffalo,,and a strong bow,, even our razor sharpe steel heads fail to penetrate from modern bows,,,
any one that hunts with a bow,,, knows that the animal can jump away from an arrow ,, even a very fast arrow,, so you need to get close,, to up your odds off success and not loose your arrow that took a weekk to make,, even when I shot a very heavy fast bow the deer at 10 yards can jump the arrow ,, thats why they needed to get close,,
bows in the museums show,, that some took time to get things right,, I am sure there was a wide range of talent as there is now,,
the bows Ishi made were very good examples ,, make a duplicate of one of his Sinew Yew bows,, and you will see the arrow fly,,
I think you diminish the basic design and its effeciency ,,, when you say all sorts of designs would work,,
if you have made many bows, you would know,, that is not correct,,
maybe the norm was 40ish,, but there are accounts of much more powerful bows,, documented in jim Hamms books, and others, and if you were going to shoot with a sinew string,, the design would need to be effecient to bring down deer and elk and bear,,, also very powerful to shoot through a buffalo and kill the one on the other side,,, obvously well designed bows and arrows,,
thanks you so much for you input,, if was fun thinking about your views,, :)
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Laubin writes in his book about the Spanish being attacked and three horses shot through both shoulders,,,"these could not have been propelled by the sort of little childrens bows we so often see as being "real INdian", then he says his friend Chief White bull killed four bullalo with the arrow hitting the dirt on the other side,,and states,,,"Since there is no doubt that originally there were many Indian bows of considerable power, let us now take up some of them in more detail. I couldnt find my Jim Hamn book but still looking :)
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Nice Buffalo Brad. My first bows where not as efficient as my present bows either. The wilderbeast I shot was done with a 47# at my draw 26". Penetration into shoulder 14-16 inches. 145 gr ace I think. 565 gr arrow.15 yds. The Nyala the arrow was sticking out both sides and both lungs where pumping plenty. 60 yd recovery. I prefer to shoot game at 6-10 yds if possible. Not to hard if you have the wind in your favor and not a herd of game in front of you. :) Arvin
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A friend of mine shot a 600# cow buffalo with a 50# decent shooting self bow I made, The arrow did penetrate both lungs but didn't come out the other side of the animal. He had about a 50 yard recovery.
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My goodness Arvin.Your a world traveler.Congrats.Seems a well placed shot does wonders with good equipment.
I've got a good friend Grant Poindexter that's been making his bows[long bows] for quite some time that went to Africa too.Came home with a wart hog,zebra,wilderbeast,and a huge impala type beast.Can't remember the name of it right now but it was as big as an elk that's for sure.Oh a kudu.Quite an experience for him.At the age of 72 he finally shot the biggest whitetail of his life last year.It had 16 scoreable points.A big fella all with a 50ish pound bow.Quite a fella himself like you guys.
These wooden bows I wish other people would realize are just deadly,deadly weapons.That's for sure.
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I have really enjoyed reading this thread, and I really enjoy na style bows too! Cheers- brendan
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Good wooden bows have performance very easily comparable with the average good glass laminate bows... the wheelies are just overkill. I think most people just don't know, I've seen NUSensei (easily with the knowledge of your average sort of archer) call a standard glass lam bow with white limbs and a wooden riser (IIRC) a "wooden bow"
Ishi's bow drew 26", so that's good... I could shoot that decently, I think. But maybe not with his style of shooting.