Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: Stick Bender on August 12, 2017, 08:54:57 am
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This is a stave I picked up from Clint about 1 1/2 years ago been ruffed & inside sense winter its 68 in. Lever bow I have it at 47 lb @27 right now Im heading to 29 1/2 @47lb any thoughts ? One fade is slightly more reflexed then the other started out with about 1 1/4 reflex & the bow is 1/8 positive in the pic ?
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Imediate unbraced
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Nice work!!!
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Looks good to me! With those lever bows I always start the bend directly from the fade to get a nice circular tiller and get as much working limb as possible.
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Nice looking bow, Stick. That’s a good layout for Osage. It’s “real” close to being tiller. Just a few scrapes in the middle of the working sections of both limbs should bring it home. As Leon mentioned, you’re looking for a circular shape on the working sections, and you’ve done a good job so far. Good luck, H.
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Looking pretty good to me. You could get the lower limb near the fade bending a bit more and coming into both fades at the levers.
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Looks sweet to me, mind it looks like you could draw it back to your ear and shoot a warbow arrow ;)
Oh, just re-read :-[ and you are aiming for 29.5" looks like she'll take it, can't wait for the FD pic :)
Del
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It's looking good. It could use a few scrapes at the fades.
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Ok here it is slightly heavy for shoot in and sand not perfect but shoots sweet & hard even with probably 3oz left in the tips or better to come off it took some more fairly even set and the top limb was the slightly deflexed one and took a bit more set decided to do this one ala natural instead of inducing reflex and it turned out about neutral ,cant wait to get the tips down and chrony built this one for shooting heavy hunting arrows & pulled to 29 1/2 im hopping for some decent speed all coments & critic welcome this only my 3 rd lever bow could have probably got the upper fade working a bit more but im at weight and its shooting great !
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Imedeate unbrace
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Nothing wrong with that! Looks really good. That will lauch those heavy arrows for sure, especially with your drawlength!
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If I had to be critical I'd say your curtains could do with an inch off the bottom right ;)
Del
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I will tell Mrs Bender but hope you dont live to close for your own safety !!
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looking great (SH)
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Sweeeet!You nailed her pretty good!Some pretty good Indiana osage there too.Not counting the human manipulation factor which had a heck of a lot to do with the final outcome.A hunting weight arrow of 525 grains or better will fly just fine off that bow.
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Thanks Fellas that peace of hedge looks like it came from the same batch that Clint is using on his thread has the same late wood early wood ratio , but keeping it inside sense winter helped too I have been shooting 520 grain arrows threw it this after noon seems to hit the stop pretty good but thats subjective I wiil get numbers when done this is the longest bow I have made in a while forgot how smooth they draw , not much hand shock even with the bricks on the end ,these type bows seem pretty efficient with dumping there energy !
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Looking good so far....the tough part of lever bows is keeping the set down between the fades after a few hundred shots and leaving it strung a few hours. You got a good start, keep up the good work.
DBar
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Thanks DB I probably shot close to 90 arrows yesterday let it Marie the string for 4 hrs to , hopefully get the tips down next week end and another 100 arrows threw it hopping to hunt with this one in the fall , Im tempted to get the heat gun out & put some reflex in but promised my self on this one I woudnt , Im hopping I dont end with more set particularly in the fades this is a pretty reseliant peace of Clints hedge !
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I'm still at 25.43 oz on mass, calculating Steve's numbers if I figured right I should be between 21-22 oz ,this bow is on the over built side at 1 1/2 in width but most of the mass is in the lower part of the working limb the bow tappers from mid limb to 1 1/32 at the static fade I'm hoping to work the static levers down to 5/8 to 1/2 with a flare out at the pin knocks & thin as much as possible so I'm hoping for 3 oz or better & maybe another 3/4 oz finishing out the handle I'm going to Chrono the bow at this weight later today and post and post Chrono numbers at different weight removal so I can see the mass principal in action if any body is interested !
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Cool to verify the writings in the TBB book.I've read every 65 grains removed from the tips[I'm assuming the last 6"] is a 1 fps gain especially on longer bows like you've got.On your design then I would say if the levers are longer then 6" and kept stiff yet you could see more yet.
I'm sure with as much as you've got to remove some difference will be noticed.
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Yep the levers are 9 1/2 on this one I'm amazed every time I apply Tim Bakers & Badgers theory it's kinda fun ,the Chrono is a good tool for it takes the guess work out mass where it's needed and not where it's not I got the string marrying for another 5 hrs so far so good !
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Ok here is the numbers I'm averaging 164-65 ,highs 169 fps I'm going to call it 163 fps to keep it honest it's still new and slightly heavy I shot the crap out of it to get solid numbers very few errors got nice flight and nice relese today so the bow is 25.43 oz b-50 tiller string 509 grain arrow 47.5 lb 29 1/2 draw ,was surprised at the numbers thought it would be slower I'm actually only pulling 29 1/4 but tillered to 29 1/2 so figure 8 fps for FF string plus weight reduction I think I will end mid 170s hopefully I'm trying my best to keep all numbers honest !
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At 20 yards I'm pretty sure your bow will more than do it's job if you do yours for hunting.
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Looking at the back profile I'm sure you could narrow the 'levers' quite a bit and not have them bend. Where you have the thickness increasing it would be safe to narrow to 5/8 ths / 9/16ths then into 3/8ths at the nocks themselves. If you don't want to put overlays on such narrow outer limbs a simple side nock works.
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nice,, I agree the tips can go more narrow,,
and that will make the bow shoot even sweeter, congrats, B
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For sure on the levers ,in the post above I said I was going to Chrono now at the heavy mass and take the tips down and repost Chrono numbers as I go to show the mass principal in progress I'm hoping for at least 2 1/2 oz maybe 3 oz in them this one is pin knocked so a slight flare at the tips but won't add much weight got another 90 arrows or better threw it today and no additional set I'm just trying to get it real shot in so the numbers are accurate ! This is the most resilient peace of hedge I have worked with yet !
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Stick, I have no idea how I missed this one. The bend looks great and the numbers speak for themselves. Those :-D better be on the lookout for you my friend (SH) :-D
-C-
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Thanks Jeff means a lot to me coming from you , hope I can poke some thing too !
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I feel as though I've made plenty of these to comment here and if and when you make more of these type bows out of a certain type same wood your confidence will get to a point where you will have everything really close or dialed in I like to call it and close to finish at floor tiller and the end mass number will be more revealing to you sooner along with the poundage etc.String alignment by then will be a minor or non issue to solve.Charaterish or straight type bows will not matter either.Watching what happens with the wood removal you are going to do will tell you something that you will remember on a bow you should be proud of.The wood in this case is very good but the execution of the design by you deserves a lot of merit also.
I usually start with wide enough working limbs if possible to adjust the mass by side tillering after setting my thickness taper and things bending evenly but leaving enough thickness to tiller there too which most times is the case.
It's not what everybody does but to me it's fun and does help to zero in on a certain wood and design and I'm just naturally curious to understand what's going on and perfect something as best as it can be done.Improving little things about it along the way.Especially your tillering skills.Then move onto a different wood and design or same design and different wood.I've found that whitewoods most often out shoot osage of this design.Not by much but most times a little.Heat treating being the game changer.
Bow making has a way of making questions in your mind appear for inspiration to make another.The next one better hopefully.
In your case a 29.5" draw length always has to be considered as mine is only 28".More length of working limb is the solution or relief of strain on the inner limbs the way I see it unless someone else has something to add or reveal.
I'm sure other designs on a shorter bow will accomodate the draw length on non backed self bows that remain healthy and safe.A 64" or a little shorter retro bent tipped bendy handle type bow comes to mind by me.The deflex reflex design would be something to consider too.
I did'nt notice length of comment...Sorry for ranting here.
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Nice performance :), I think the long draw length helps, especially with heavy arrows, gives 'em time to get up to speed.
Del
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Looking good so far bud. With a lever bow I like the fades to bend more and through mid limb. this allows those working limbs to give that bow all the cast it can.
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Thanks fellas for the good words, Ntvbowyer this bow is not a true Molly design more in common with a parallel limb design with extended levers the front view profile mandated more of a elliptical tiller , Ed thanks for your post a lot of insight in it , after having a more hot roded version of this bow fail on me last year I was to chicken to side tiller & add reflex I was just looking for a tank of a hunting bow but having said that I have a stave getting ready for a more hot roded version as soon as I can get all the honey dews done that I put off to build this one ,with the techniques you mentioned in your post Ed , Del it's a love hate situation with the long draw it defiantly adds energy but makes it tuffer at least for me to make shorter handled self bows !
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Well done . Good speed. I have not built but a couple . So the info from the rest that have is interesting to me. What would be a minimum width on say a fifty pound lever be at lever fade to mid lever to tip. I am talking Osage. Say 8" lever. 69" bow with a 10" handle. I know there is lots of variables but just a ball park. Arvin
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If Ritch does'nt mind I'll comment here.So your request Arvin is my command to type....Ha Ha.
Arvin....For a more streamlined looking type look generally an inch wide or a scooch less at the end of the working limb and the beginning of the fade.You'll have to see on yours maybe yours is narrower yet there at that point.That would be around 11"to 12" from the tip with at least a 3" long fade to 9/16" or even less wide at base of lever[8" from tip] to 1/2" or less wide 4" from the tip.Then narrowed to your hearts desire for the string groove.At 69" long you'll still get 20" working limbs each.I just keep narrowing till I feel it's all it can handle.A pic.L-R..Osage/Black locust/Winged elm.All these bows were 64" long with at least 10 to 12 inches non working levers.The black locust came in @ 63" long @ 52#'s @ 28" weighing only 13 ounces overall with a stiff 8" handle.As a reference the measuring tape is 11/16" wide.They are actually 1/2" wide or less a good 6" from the tips and at the most a little thicker then 1/2" thick.The lesser dense wood usually is a little thicker.Every one has very good cast.Also I realize these are not the holy grail of bows but suit me.Many designs can be made to outstanding shooters.
(http://i920.photobucket.com/albums/ad41/Beadman1/DSCN1769_zpsup1jtkph.jpg) (http://s920.photobucket.com/user/Beadman1/media/DSCN1769_zpsup1jtkph.jpg.html)
I'd be interested in what your dimensions were from the past on the last foot of your bows of this design.
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Thanks Ed for posting that, chime in any time you want , Arvin thanks for the kind words ,on the bow posted I'm at 1 1/32 at the lever fades I plan on Eiffel towering just out of the fade to 5/8 & tapper to 1/2 near the tips & then play the thickness by ear did that on the last one and it worked for me ,glad to see the interest in this type bow, to me it just makes sense it capitalizes on mass placement even on a overbuilt bow like mine you get above average performance but a real plus for these bows is they are completely dead in the hand even with heavy wood like osage & longer limbs very stable bows at release I'm leaving my levers a little heavy as this bow is pin knocked and plan on field stringing with out a stringer also my fades are more abrupt and happen with in 1 in. For a total of 9 1/2 lever.
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Thanks Beadman! When I get home I will try one. 13 ounces with a stiff handle! Wow I know that one is fast. Arvin
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Hey Ed if you get a chance could you snap a side view shot of your 3 in fade I'm going to try that on the next one comming up I'm going for a 69 in. On this one to ,I would like to get longer leavers & more narrow width on the working limb plus induce maybe 4 in. reflex to start !
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Bottom to top winged elm/black locust/osage.Generally speaking the thickness is 7/16" or less a foot from the tip where working limb ends.The levers themselves generally are around 9/16" thick.You can see the osage is about as thick as it is wide.The black locust a little thicker then wide.The winged elm more so yet.They are all narrower then they are wide on the lever parts.
(http://i920.photobucket.com/albums/ad41/Beadman1/DSCN1770_zpspamnxv2i.jpg) (http://s920.photobucket.com/user/Beadman1/media/DSCN1770_zpspamnxv2i.jpg.html)
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Thanks Ed I appreciate it as I'm sure others too like you said after making a few of these you end up with more questions then answers !
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sweet looking bow and impressive speed! I need to try this type of bow as well. I have 30+ staves of HHB to choose from so lots of room for some mistakes and to get it right :)
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Thanks Phillip I have to get the tips down to see on speed these are fun bows to build and fun to shoot ,good luck with yours !
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I got the limbs down 1.7 oz there still wide at 0.69 in & 5/8 thick but wanted to shoot the bow to see the fps with lowered mass as soon as it gets a little latter dont want to wake my neiobors ,but my total mass is 23.17 so far part is a little off for cleaning up the handle !
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Tip
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Tip
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Tip
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For truth in reporting Im using Tim Bakers method of leaving the bow strung for at least 1 hour and pulling to full draw 3 times actually I shot a dozen arrows first so on the low 167 fps at 1.7 oz difference actually did tripples at 171 fps but taking the lower number to stay accurate hopping to get the tips down more and a string made but going to end up with a all day mid 170s hunting bow remeasuring the imidate unstring no aditional set botom limb is neutrol the top took 1/16 set !
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Highs
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Imediate unbrace
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Now's the time to see if we paid attention to the math teacher in school heh??.....lol.If you did a triple 171 I'd go with that Ritch or 170 maybe.That's the 509 grain arrow off the 47.5# bow too correct?You know actually the weight of that arrow of close to 35 grains over 475 grains should compensate for your overdraw of 1.25"? over 28" for standard fairness.You probably thought that out already.So that should be pretty close.Usually I try to shoot 3 arrows then take the average.Looks like your self bow is holding up fine.Very little what I call soft set that returns quickly after unbracing.
We'll see after a proper string is put on there too. (-P
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I have it down to 22.19 Oz I had it strung most of the day to simulate hunting conditions my arrows are starting to go out of spine so its hard to get good numbers so had to change to a slightly heavy arrow but averaging excluding the highs I will call 168 fps sanded some for clean up on the limbs I will recheck but think I lost a little draw weight also Im well over the 200 arrow mark so next make a FF string and work some arrows up should get good numbers, its funny how as you get lighter mass & faster speed you can actualy see your arrow spine change for the bow I will end up under 22 oz when done for a slightly over built bow the lighter the tips the sweeter it shoots its a real tack driver at this length !
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Tips
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I got this bow shot in and limbs sanded today ended up mass wise at 21.5 oz which calculates real close or slightly under Badgers numbers I got the levers a lilltle lite & started to flex so I heat treated them and there now rigid lost some weight to shoot in & sanding Im at 46 1/2 lb @29 1/4 and after strung for 4 hrs and shooting about 30 509 grain arrows before the chrono my average speed is 172 Fps in real numbers when fresh and first strung it was averaging 176fps but was only interested in actual field numbers that was with 8 strand FF will post some pics after it gets out of the beauty shop another note Im not shooting proper spined arrows & could pic up some additional FPS Im glad I got the chrono it has taught me a lot about making bows & is fun watching the speed go up as you tweake the bow !
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very nice performance,, congrats on a great bow,, I am sure the deer gonna love it,,
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Thanks Brad as you know its a balacing act when you get to this point but what I realy like about this bow is when the arrow is gone its completly dead in the hand you can shoot it open grip & it just rolls over never made one like that before !
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It's good to hear your satisfied and you did an excellent job on it too.Very nice cast on your bow.I'd give it an A+ for a self bow.After shooting these a person seems to get a little clearer view of hand shock.The ease of the draw and release seems to help with accuracy too.
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I just read this post, nice job on this bow! Experiment with design and find what works best for you, personally after building quite a few lever bows my fave design is shorter, around 62 ttt for 28-29" draw, levers 12" including the 1"top fade. I start 1-1/2-1-5/8 wide at the fade with indiana sage and taper to 1" then to 3/4" end of the 1" long top fade and taper to 1/2" all rough layout. I like to recurve the levers as well. Took me a while to find what i liked, lots of options with lever bows, hope to see more from you,
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Nice work Ritchie.
what I realy like about this bow is when the arrow is gone its completly dead in the hand you can shoot it open grip & it just rolls over never made one like that before
sweet, what do you attribute that deadness to?
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Thanks fellas greatly appreciated it ,Bubby I think Im going to try a shorter one on the next go comming up a interesting design note that I found was when the levers started to flex from to much mass removal that the Fps ex potentially (Big words for me)...lol , started to fall off more so then just a slight whipping , Im guessing it had to do with the string angle , when I heat treated the levers I shimmed them out ahead of the lever fade 1/8 but it really made a difference in consitent speed the bow stays positive ahead of the handle even after imediate un stringing , Im impreesed with these bows as far as taking advantage of mass & shooting quality , they can be finiky & a ballacing act to get them right but even at only shooting 300 arrows out of spine I would feel confident I could drop a white tail at 20 yards !
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Front view
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Willie just saw your question I think its 2 fold the efficient design & eliptical tiller !
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This is more of a holmgaard style,Truely a boxy tiller but after a 1000 or more looses it holds it"s profile!the magic of good white elm!
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Thanks for posting Bushboy nice looking bow I have not tried white elm but those who do speak highly of it !
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Hi Fellas kinda a all over the map thread we have going hear but got around to finishing this bow up went with Tru-oil & cane wrap nothing fancy just a plain simple duty White tail hunting bow fits me perfect ,plain & simple ! Will get some more pics when my buddy can take them for me out side !
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Handle
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Handle
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Front profile
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Been waiting to see you finish this one.Nice!!!!!....Good old hedge doing it's thing being a work horse of a bow.Does the wiggle on the top limb tip move the string over for ya a bit on the handle?
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Thanks Ed it moved it maybe a hair but it pretty much lined up right down the center of the handle I left the handle thick during ruff out just in case there where issues & I cut it closer to center this was one of those staves that every thing that I thought could be a issue never was a problem it was nice but I don't think I will try lightening the levers up so much that they started to flex and heat treating them rigid it worked but got lucky at least I know there at minimum mass....lol