Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => English Warbow => Topic started by: apg on August 20, 2017, 07:54:22 am
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Hi everyone. I'm going to be making a 70" English Long Bow, and I've got a piece of knotty (!) English Yew.
I'm confident with tillering etc, and have made a small ELB before, but I'm a bit nervous about beginning the work on this.
How do I find the center line? Do I follow that center grain in the photos, even though it may be a little wonky?
And then the stave it pretty big now, a few inches accross and deep. Is that a hatchet job, or should I be using a draw knife and working it for a day or two until I have a roughed out shape?
Thanks for any advice - I'm really confused at this early juncture.
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I'm really wrestling with this same thing as I'm working on my first really long bow. I think that these long bows follow exactly the same rules as 'normal' length bows. Follow the grain, straighten with heat if necessary and use the best tool for the job in hand. For me that means hatchet for as long as possible then plane and rasp then scraper
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With something like that, just bash a straight line through it. You don't need to mess about following grain or growth rings or anything, especially if you're not making it super heavy.
If you WANT a character bow then follow the pith line, but it certainly isn't necessary.
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No don't follow the pith..but do follow the crown on the back. If the crown meanders then it is important to follow it.
So to start with mark the highest part of the crown on the back, this is your 'center' line. Mark out width from this, allowing extra width at any knots. Reduce to width. Rough in the taper, trying to be as accurate as possible.
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Yes, "FOLLow the crown" asmike said. Lay down the stave crown up and rest a ruler or straight stick on top. Make sure the stick is level .mark a dot where the stick touches the staves crown. Now move the stick along the stave a fewinches and repeat. After marking the entire length this way, connect the dots. This is your centerline.now, lay out your width out from this centerline. You can rough out with a hatchet if its sharp and you are good. Also
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String, masking tape and a pencil is your friend. (You can't do too much harm with a pencil, and it may take a couple of tries to find the best straight line)
I lay out a straight line with the string and mark where that lies with the pencil.
Sometimes I mark it on the bark side, having taken off the outer bark leaving the pinkish inner bark which will take a pancil mark, sometimes I mark out on the other side.
Don't try and rough out too close to final dimensions as the wood can move, also keep the tips at least 20mm wide initially until the bow is moving a fair bit, this will allow some sideways adjustment of string line and also helps stop it bending sideways.
Leaving extra width on the initial rough out also allows you to follow the grain a bit if you need to for some reason.
I have a couple of Youtube build alongs, they don't really show the marking out, but may help.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sR28fBBADdY&list=PLBz2tD9476KRkSOSICLsc-zj5ADyPKLZB (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sR28fBBADdY&list=PLBz2tD9476KRkSOSICLsc-zj5ADyPKLZB)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XgG0M--KCZE&list=PLBz2tD9476KQFyMBLEylQGh952tBT_mZB (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XgG0M--KCZE&list=PLBz2tD9476KQFyMBLEylQGh952tBT_mZB)
Del
PS, Your stave is probably a bit short for a warbow, but it depends on draw weight and length.
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Hi everyone,
Thanks a lot. Great advice. So I shaved off the bark, and marked out the crown on the highest section of the crown of the bow. I made a line between all of those marks and I'm left with what will be a *somewhat* bowed bow - it will be bowing out in the center, which seems to mean, I think, a string would sit way off center from the middle of the handle.
I feel like I'm doing this wrong. Does what I said make sense?
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Here's a better explanation:
red line is a roughly straight line as a string would make from bottom of bow to top.
Blue line is following the heighest point of the crown all the way through.
Ash
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Follow the high point of the crown, things get a bit weird if you don't and you'll end up with a lot more work shaping the bow to compensate for the slope you put across the back when you didn't need to. Yew straightens really easily with a touch of heat, it will even soften on a hot sunny windowsill, as I found out the hard way one time. Besides the huge increase in performance you gain from tempering the bow means you will be heating it anyway, so you can temper it and straighten it at the same time.
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You honestly don't need to follow the crown. I never do, and I've taken crappy twisty English yew over 150lb.
Yew is bulletproof when it comes to layout. You can ignore twist, bend, knots etc. It really is the perfect beginners wood, as you can ignore all character and just make a straight bow without having to worry about the extra problems that sideways bend offers.
70" is a good length too, especially for a 30" draw length. People have made heavy, heavy bows drawing to 30" out of 67" staves, so don't worry about that. Just tiller carefully.
I'm sure everybody will disagree, but if I were you I'd use a long straight edge or string, lay out a dead straight centre line and work from that. The small amount that your stage is curving just isn't worth the effort of tillering a bent bow, or heat treating a thick handle to try and force the limbs straight. Any other wood and the rules change, but not here.
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Oh, and just shift your red line to the left a bit, so it's more centered. The tips don't matter, but you want the middle of the bow to be more or less in the middle of the stave.
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Okay, thanks everyone, and @WillS I'm taking your advice.
I've got two more questions.
The knots on the bow (see photos), I should make a wider berth around those on the edge of the bow right?
And, looking at roughly the shape I'm going to have with a 1.25" wide bow, I've got SO MUCH extra wood. Do you guys think I should just measure and cut with a hand saw, or use the draw knife to slowly work it back.
Any advice appreciated!
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Follow the crown...and don't ignore the knots.
It is very easy to straighten yew and a valid technique to learn as we all know that truly straight wood is a rare thing indeed.
Thicker wood is stiffer than a thinner spot ...right?? Think what a meandering crown will do to the stress in the limb....as it is thicker on one side than the other if you don't follow the crown.
I'm sorry Will but yew isn't magical wood. You can break these 'rules' with other woods too. However it still isn't a good idea and never will be regardless of how many times you do it ;)
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Leave extra width round the knots... you can always remove it later!
Knots on the belly (if sound) are not a problem. Knots on the back have no strength what so ever, and if you look at it as a missing 1/4" of sapwood then the extra width replaces that (and follows the flow of the fibres) without making it too stiff.
The mistake I often see is people leaving a bulge on the back where there is a knot AND a bulge on the belly, this just creates a rigid area which may not appear to be a problem, but it creates a weak point either side. Often you'll see two knots treated like that with a thin point between them which is asking to become a hinge.
Try to get smooth even continuous sapwood on the back.
Like a lot of things in bow making, you can make compromises. I've laid out bows on the diagonal with a stave like that, but as Mike points out, that gives problems of one edge being lower that the other which is tricky to tiller. If it's just slightly out it's not too much of a problem, you can use heat to correct the twist, but then you can use heat to correct the sideways bowing!
It's all about compromise and making the least bad choice! You can't always tell which way is best, and both ways may well make a fine bow.
Often the solution is a little of A and a little of B.
I've found that correcting twist is relatively easy, whereas a big bend at the grip is harder to do...
This is why you need the pencil... keep drawing lines until you think you've got the best compromise.
Del
PS in your last pic, there is a dip either side of that knot, just let the side of the bow swell out gently round that as you may need to allow for that dip. Like I said when in doubt leave extra, it can be taken off later, but it's harder to put it back on.
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Interesting thread, first time I am hearing about yew being very impervious to design mess up or things like that and also being perfect for beginners. Always regarded it as wood you can't touch before you have years of experience. Probably having to do with yew being rare here so I regard it as some kind of "magical" tree I will never have access to.
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It's not "magic" by any means, as Mike said. It's just incredibly forgiving. It will tolerate really bad tillering without chrysalling or breaking, and most of the time you can ignore all the flaws you'd need to be careful with when using other woods. I've made really heavy bows from terrible yew, full of sliced knots, rot, violations... You name it. It doesn't need heat treating, it doesn't need a perfect back, it doesn't even need sealing from moisture.
It's actually one of my least favourite bow woods, as it's so boring to work with. What you mentioned about it being hard to find is definitely the reason it's become so hyped up, but as soon as you find a reliable source for it, you very quickly realise just how easy it is to get a bow from.
It's long been my opinion that one of the main reasons it was used so much for mass produced military bows is simply because you can make it into a heavy bow in about an hour. You don't need to follow growth rings on the back unlike almost every other wood, and if your tapers are good you'll have a bow after the first bracing. It's no better than other woods (in fact I think average elm and ash will outshoot average yew almost consistently) it's just much quicker to use.
If you're an idiot it will go pop of course, but with a stave like the one posted here, it shouldn't take more than a few hours at most to be shooting, with a bit of experience.
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Yes, well....
I've made 300# Warbows from old packing cases in 30 minutes whilst blindfolded using only a chainsaw... ::)
Del
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Have you got a link to your blog for those?
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Have you got a link to your blog for those?
LOL ;D
Del
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It's just incredibly forgiving
I have no doubts about your assertation, Will, but I have to ask if forgiveness, as a working quality, is a relative thing? It's quite logical to say that Yew is a more forgiving wood to work with, than say, Oak. The implication being, that it is easier to execute a given design using Yew.
But to me, this indicates that yew is a superior wood for bowmaking, and therefore is capable of
of being well utilized in a more highly strained designs. Said another way, with the care and attention needed to craft a bow from a "lesser" wood, with equal effort, could not a superior bow can be had from yew?
It almost sounds like you are advocating sloppy workmanship is acceptable, but I have seen in other threads where you have made strong recommendation to a neophyte, to accept nothing less than the best tiller possible, even if the bow comes in way under design weight.
I admire your work that you have posted, and know you are meticulous about your own workmanship, so some of the advice you have presented in this thread seems confusing.
Perhaps I have made a poor assumption about the capabilities of yew? As much as I have always wanted to work with yew, I do not have the luxury of obtaining it locally at a reasonable expense, and maybe I should not bother, if it is not usable for an exceptional bow?
with respect,
willie
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I think you've misunderstood me completely. Good yew, made into a good bow by a good bowyer will be superb.
Yew just happens to be more forgiving to mistakes and timber flaws than other woods. You can get away with more. That doesn't make it a lesser wood, just a more versatile one. It means beginners can get on with making a bow and end up with quite a good one despite knots, twist, violations and bad tiller whereas usually, with other woods, they couldn't.
If you can get hold of yew, you will find it makes a wonderful bow. And the better you treat it, the better the bow. However, IF you happen to slice through the back rings, or misjudge a knot and leave half of it in the bow, the bow won't break. If you did it with ash, or elm you'd probably end up with two much smaller bows...
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To address the original question, I have done both; followed the crown and ignore the crown and snap a chalk like. Both have worked fine for me, both have their own things to deal with.
I also believe yew is an awesome wood for beginners, for the all the reasons mentioned and also is such a soft and workable wood.
I don't know how anyone can say yew is boring to work! :o
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I think what Will meant when he said Yew can get boring to work is due to an over familiarity with a forgiving wood compaired to more challenging woods.
Let's face it everything becomes boring if you do it a lot!
I'm a Firefighter and believe it or not, entering burning buildings becomes 'boring' when you've done it for 30 years!
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Let's face it everything becomes boring if you do it a lot!
I'm a Firefighter and believe it or not, entering burning buildings becomes 'boring' when you've be doing it for 30 years!
Another firefighter! I've only been doing it two years though so it's not had time to get boring yet...
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I'm a Firefighter and believe it or not, entering burning buildings becomes 'boring' when you've be doing it for 30 years!
Ahhh, I thought I could smell smoke that day...