Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: stuckinthemud on September 13, 2017, 04:06:41 am
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Hi guys,
I think this is just a moan, but let's see where it goes. I hate making bow strings and occasionally I find myself making bows to fit a string I already have on another bow just to avoid making a new string. Am I alone in this??
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Definitely not alone!!
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Don't really love making them , but don't dislike it enough to make a bow to fit a string I already have, new bows always get new strings. ;) :)
Pappy
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I don't mind making them. It doesn't take very long once you get it figured out good.
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I enjoy making them and choosing colors to accent my rigs. I started making them in the mid 90s. Wouldn't want to guess how many I've twisted up. Maybe a thousand.
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I dont mind making them some times I like doing things that dont require a lot of thought like strings,chasing rings or sharpening tools the one I dont care for is when I have to shread 2 oz of sinew when I only have one day to do it !
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I don't mind making strings at all. I use a bowyers knot on the bottom so they fit any bow. :OK
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I've got to give that a try, its mostly twisting up the second loop that is killing me.
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Not crazy about making strings but certainly do not make a bow to fit a string
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I don't mind making strings at all. I use a bowyers knot on the bottom so they fit any bow.
+1 :OK
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Not keeping those center strands parallel and untwisted before putting pulling or stretching pressure on the string or loops has pissed off many a bowyer watching their feathered in hand twisting disappear below their loops.
I'm usually a little excited so to speak to shoot in a new bow so making strings is part of the anticipation of that and don't mind it then.
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Stuck if any part of it is kicking your butt, you probably aren't doing it right. Its incredibly simple and takes maybe 20-30 minutes to make one. Including serving it. See if you can find a local who can help you through the part that you're struggling with.
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I absolutely hated making strings when I used B-50, one I switched to D97, and made a decent string jig, it's been so much easier not dealing with the 9 feet of stretching from B50. But yes, I have made bows to fit strings because I hated it so much. Once I switched, I just made a bunch of various lengths so once I get to that point of tillering, one of the stings will fit. Then eventually it gets its own string.
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I'm very good at making an easy job really difficult according to a Team Leader I used to work with. ;)
It takes me about 20 minutes to twist up a string, I just don't really make them often enough to get the method ingrained in my muscle memory. Its not helped by being ambidextrous so I take a few attempts to twist both strands the correct way and roll them the correct direction, usually three tries at the first loop before it stops untwisting itself when I let go, then I struggle with positioning the second loop and frequently have to un-twist the string when the distance is too long or too short. That means I tend to make three or four strings in a session (and some end up left-twist and some end up right-twist), by the time I'm on my third I'm on a roll, but the first and second are a re-learning experience. I clearly need to build more bows so I can spend more time twisting strings, but, since I don't like making strings, when I get workshop time, I avoid it by roughing up another bow (I have three finished on the long string waiting for me to make their proper strings, one horn bow under way a three piece just started and a set of arrows ready for fletching, that's in addition to two other bows needing re-stringing) ;D :D :) ;)
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I sat down one day and forced myself to make a dozen strings all roughly the same length. The last few I had it pretty much figured out. For a while I was making bows to fit strings ;D but I've only got one left.
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I actually really enjoy making strings. I find it relaxing
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I have at least 25 used strings, when I make a bow I select one the right length and use it during the building process. When the bow is finished I always make a new string for it. I have probably made over 500 strings through the years but don't particularly like making them.
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20 minutes?! What are you guys doing, making strings underwater or something?! Shouldn't take more than about 5 at most for a double loop laid in string.
If you roll both bundles over your thigh so the whole lot is twisted, then simply put them together and roll them as one the other way on your thigh, it's done in minutes. You're not all doing that "twist left, wrap right, twist left, wrap right" thing are you?
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You're not all doing that "twist left, wrap right, twist left, wrap right" thing are you?
? yes, but then I didn't know there was another way. So, do you space out the threads in each bundle for a tapered splice?
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20 minutes?! What are you guys doing, making strings underwater or something?! Shouldn't take more than about 5 at most for a double loop laid in string.
If you roll both bundles over your thigh so the whole lot is twisted, then simply put them together and roll them as one the other way on your thigh, it's done in minutes. You're not all doing that "twist left, wrap right, twist left, wrap right" thing are you?
Does that make a cabled bow string? I prefer them to not be cabled.
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It helps if you rolled cigars for a living in a previous life ;) ;)
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Come to mojam and accidently sit down next to the string making area. And wait till all of the new guys come over and need a string for their bows. You will learn really fast. I probably make about 20 some odd strings in a couple of days.
Patrick
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A good string is not rushed, just like any other thing of quality.
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No, they're not cabled at all. They end up just like any good Flemish twist string, you just don't have to individually twist every twist. It's described really clearly in TBB2, but essentially every element is the same - same number of bundles, same feathering and tapering etc. You just tightly pre-twist the areas that need twisting by rolling them on your thigh, put the two bundles together and twist again, the other way.
You actually end up with a much nicer, tighter string than doing each wrap by hand, because the thigh-rolling keeps the twists way more even and tight. It's a much faster way of getting a much better string. Win win!
What's really nice is that if you're doing a proper primitive string with something that has short fibres like linen, you can pre-twist the entire string using a simple drill jig, and end up with the whole string reverse-twisted just like the laid in loop area but massively stronger. I recently used that method to reverse twist a beautiful linen string for a 135lb elm bow, and the entire string took perhaps 10 minutes, and most of that time was spooling out the starting material.
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I only reverse twist the loops until about an inch past the last string tag end. I hand roll the rest of the string while smoothing out the bundles.
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I think you might have misunderstood ;)
There's no difference - it ends up looking exactly the same. It's the physical process of twisting that is quicker this way. You can either twist and wrap every single reverse twist (however many you choose to do), or roll the bundles along your thigh, flip and roll again and you're done.
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And when I say "you might have misunderstood" what I really mean is "this is impossible to describe via typing, I'm doing a crappy job of it" ;D
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How about a video build a long? I would like to see your process, especially if it only takes you 5 minutes ;)
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So, this is what I think Wills was going for (please correct me)
1.
measure/cut/lay out strands for first bundle, including feathering
2.
pre-twist with drill or roll along thigh to twist into tight bundle
3.
repeat for second bundle
4.
put strands together, fold back on each other to form loop and roll the other way along thigh to weave the splice.
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^^^ That's it. Almost exactly.
Steps 1, 2 and 3 are right, but step 4 should be:
Put (pretwisted) strands together, roll the other way along thigh to reverse twist, fold back on each other to form loop and continue rolling the other way to weave the splice.
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So you don't reverse twist your loop ends?
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Yes, the loop ends are reverse twisted...
Just did this one, SUPER rough - this is not how they look when you're doing them properly, you get lovely round reverse twists but this shows the four steps.
1. Left hand holding the starting point of the twist, right hand rolls DOWNWARDS
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4338/37033256606_8ac4331894_b.jpg)
2. Left hand holding starting point, right hand rolls UPWARDS - first reverse twist.
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4438/37033256736_b746fcc585_b.jpg)
3. Loop folded, right hand holds loop and left hand rolls DOWNWARDS
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4407/37033256796_9c6df7739c_b.jpg)
4. Right hand holds loop, left hand rolls UPWARDS.
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4396/37033256916_5db0e59d13_b.jpg)
One Flemish twist laid in loop.
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Let's see the 5 minute version. ;)
Seriously. Double loop, and better looking than individually twisted. Go.
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That's definitely different then the way I do it.Talking about the loop being made.My tails are intertwined or reverse twisted into the main body lengths individually and lengths are different to give it a taper which is part of the extra time factor on my end I'm sure.Plus this is just me I usually 3 ply all my strings.
I'm sure your way holds good enough but I know my way does for sure.
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Top string makers spend a lot of time with strand tension balance where everything is even in length and equally strained.
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I'm with the group that hates to make them. I will sit down and do it when I have to, though. I have a place here local I can drive to and buy one already made for $10. The thing that I hate the most is when I get the string finished and it's a little too short or long and I have to untwist it and redo.
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That's definitely different then the way I do it.Talking about the loop being made.My tails are intertwined or reverse twisted into the main body lengths individually and lengths are different to give it a taper which is part of the extra time factor on my end I'm sure.Plus this is just me I usually 3 ply all my strings.
I'm sure your way holds good enough but I know my way does for sure.
Yours is the same as mine. My tails are reverse twisted into the main body at different lengths, to feather them out so there's no stubby ends. I also usually 3 ply mine - especially if they're natural fibres. This rolling method works for 3 ply (and more) just as easily - that's what makes it so good!
The longest part of the entire string build is counting out the strands, and staggering the ends for the taper.
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I feel like nobody has read the Traditional Bowyer's Bible chapter on string making... I thought they were "the" go to books on this stuff?
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I'll have to disagree with you.It is not the same.Unless I'm looking at the picture wrong.It looks like your taking 2 main bodies and reverse twisting them into each other.Mine are individually twisted into each other.
Looks like to me I could take your loop insert my finger and make it bigger if I wanted too.My way you can't.The loop is locked into 1 size and that's it.I must be seeing this wrong I guess.
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No, it's my crappy photos, not you! The loop is locked, just like a normal Flemish laid in loop.
There's literally zero difference between this and the slow way - the string is no better or worse, but by rolling the bundles on your thigh first, and then rolling them back together the other way you do all that "twist left, wrap right stuff" in on go.
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The slow way balances tension much better and undoubtedly looks better.
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I've seen dozens of different ways to make string. Had my hands on a few different methods as well and I just can't visualize what you're saying. Components of it, yes. But as a whole it's not making sense.
If making a single loop string the rolling on the thigh trick saves lots of time. But that's only after the first loop is laid and string twisted out past the tags. At this point I would roll out the entire string on my leg - or forearm - and have it done in a few mins.
For double loop strings there is no gain to thigh roll the body of the string cause you have to separate the string again to lay the second loop. (I assume this is where our methods diverge.) With double loop strings the length is very specific which is why string jigs are so common. Consistency being the key to most things in archery, it's no different with strings and the more you do the better it gets.
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I think that next time I make a string I'll give it a go, if I don't like the results I'll just untwist it and do it the 'normal' way. Thanks Will, and everyone else, for the all your input.
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I like to use a single loop fast flight tillering string with a timber hitch to get my string length dialed in. Then I'll take that string and use it to measure out the correct length for an endless loop. They are better strings in my opinion. Takes a bit of time, but so does everything else in this game. Like PatM said, there's no rushing quality.
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Will S...My fault then as long as the string loop is locked in size that's good.I'll show a pic of my loops.The only way they get bigger is from stretching a little.
Ruddy Darter....That's almost an exact replica of the way I make my 2 looped strings then while making the second loop I can hold that string to the exact length I want to start the second loop at.Along with measuring the tillering string after tillering like Aaron does.
Stuck....Usually I only got 3 to 4 inches of interlocking tapered fade below the loop.It holds.So I start out with around 9" length to make the loops.Start at the 4"to 4.5" mark from the end approximately.Reverse twist 1.5" for a normal loop on my bows/larger if larger tips.Then interlock reverse twist the rest of the ends into the main body plys individually.
(http://i920.photobucket.com/albums/ad41/Beadman1/DSCN1789_zpsfigygjuh.jpg) (http://s920.photobucket.com/user/Beadman1/media/DSCN1789_zpsfigygjuh.jpg.html)
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there is no gain to thigh roll the body of the string cause you have to separate the string again
Correct - that's why you don't thigh roll the body of the string ;D
I'm talking purely about thigh-rolling INSTEAD of the slower "twist, wrap, twist wrap" thing. I'm not talking about a different way to make a string, I'm talking about a different method to make EXACTLY the same string.
Basically - if you took my string, and put it next to a Flemish laid in double looped string made the slow way, you wouldn't be able to tell the difference - in quality, tension, method etc.
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I may be wrong here but nonone's corrected me but after I make a 2 loop string I keep the main body lengths parallel the hook one loop onto something stout and non giving and stretch my string with a screw driver into the other loop.The fades on the string keep their length then.Then I like my strings just a shade longer then needed at this point.Then I simply twist the string to my exact length I need which can be fro 20 to 50 twists after being used on the bow.
Let me understand here now the single loop method I do myself too like you or pretwisting on my thigh indivdiual strands then reverse twisting with a drill then or on your thigh.I agree that way does'nt take long at all but for 2 loops it takes me longer and no drill or thigh rolling is used at all
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Yeah the double loop is a bit of a faff, but it does work with some practice. I just hate bowyers knots because I normally make strings for bows over 130lb, and FastFlight and bowyers knots are a bad mix at that weight!
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I gotta agree with that about that slippery FF.The FF tillering string with a bowyers knot used usually takes at least a couple extra wraps to hold securely.A good waxing helps me too.
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I quit using a bowyers knot on my tillering string. It kept slipping. Danznbar gave me a small aluminum spacer with 2 holes in it. You take a long double loop string and run it through the spacer. If you need to shorten it you just add another wrap or two through the holes. It works great and saves me a lot of time fighting with the bowyers knots. It's small and light enough that I can shoot the bow with it on the string and not notice it.
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Cool....Seems I've seen or heard of that before too.
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Basically - if you took my string, and put it next to a Flemish laid in double looped string made the slow way, you wouldn't be able to tell the difference - in quality, tension, method etc.
You're making up stuff now to justify your quick and dirty method. There is just no way you can free roll something without having it under tension and have it be as tight and tidy.
The actual twisting of loops takes very little time even if done in the method you think is SO incredibly labor intensive. The time is all in the prep and attention to detail.
It's really easy to hide sloppy work into a twisted string under tension on the bow.
I'm pretty sure you have now reduced every aspect of bowmaking to some sort of rushed shortcut. In this I can't think of a single exception.
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If you say so mate!
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knotted strings are underrated. But still not that easy because the strands tend to get pulled and such. Would be easier with some sort of solid material. I.e. just reverse twisted material...
ooh could reverse twist just the loop portions. Uglier than flemish, but ..
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I use this for 90% of the time.
for presentation, I take the time to do a flemish
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So do you unlay that to splice in the loop?
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no, just a knot for the loops and some serving for my fingers.
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That's dyneema? What size do you use? Thought it didn't hold knots very well as its quite slippery, so, what knot do you use for that?
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yes, dyneema. knot holding ability is about the coating. will try to post a pic with the knot later.
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Any good tutorials on how to make FF double loop string?
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Knots create a weak spot in any rope or string, they might work but i wont use them
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Knots create a weak spot in any rope or string, they might work but i wont use them
This is true but all the old composite bows had knotted strings. Usually pretty complex knots to distribute strain and allow quick loosening to adjust.
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Any good tutorials on how to make FF double loop string?
Stalker....I bet there might be an archery company that might have a helpful you tube of making a double loop flemish string.Whether it be B50 or FF it would be the same way.
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Knots create a weak spot in any rope or string, they might work but i wont use them
This is true but all the old composite bows had knotted strings. Usually pretty complex knots to distribute strain and allow quick loosening to adjust.
PatM....Yea but those strings on those horn bows were served before any knots were put into those loops.
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Any good tutorials on how to make FF double loop string?
These are pretty good
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C07evRZT_PQ&feature=youtu.be
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9iTI--H5FdE
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Knots create a weak spot in any rope or string, they might work but i wont use them
This is true but all the old composite bows had knotted strings. Usually pretty complex knots to distribute strain and allow quick loosening to adjust.
PatM....Yea but those strings on those horn bows were served before any knots were put into those loops.
Maybe some of them but not all of them. Artifacts show bare string or a chamois leather cushion wrap on the Scythian bows. The rawhide strings were simply knotted. You can see that on Manchu bows and bows from Tibet.
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I like the Bearpaw link, although I wonder can jig be made so it accepts long strings, such as for longbows
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PatM....I imagine so then.I'm sure you've done more investigating then me.I'm just stating from what is in Karpowiczes book.
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I like the Bearpaw link, although I wonder can jig be made so it accepts long strings, such as for longbows
Of course it can.
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I like the Bearpaw link, although I wonder can jig be made so it accepts long strings, such as for longbows
You can make the jig as long as you want. Because everyone twists a little tighter or looser you just have to calibrate it. To do that I decided on how much string I was going to use to make my loops and marked that on the side of the jig so it would be the same every string. Then I made my best guess for length for the first string. When I finished the string I marked the length on the center row pin I used. If the center row pins are 1" apart then you can make strings in 2" increments. To start with I put a strip of masking tape down the center to write on. As I made strings I mark the length it actually turned out to beside the pin I used. After a bit you'll fall into a pattern and you'll be able to make a string the right length the first time, very satisfying.
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I like this drawing. It seems there is place for string for big bows.
(http://www3.sympatico.ca/ragiwarmbear/diy/flemish/fig1.gif)
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I prefer endless loop but have been making a number of natural fiber strings lately with fine linen threads (35/3) that I picked several years ago. I got 2 lbs of the stuff and it's decent quality but too fine for an endless loop. I reverse twist and ply the thread then ply it again into shorter length. It takes me a lot longer than 10 minutes to make a string.
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here are some knots I use...
the first is a "bowyers knot", or what we call a keg knot around here
the second and third are front and back of the same knot, basically a clove hitch
the last is a close-up of the gangion knot, before it is tightened.
Btw, the tips are "nockless" as recomended by WillS a few years back.
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These days, besides modern style endless strings, Koreans use a fancy knot tied into an endless unserved string, with FF. They seem to have done the same with silk in the past. I've also used this knot, the korean knot has been very difficult to get right for me, compared to this one. (drawing by Bede from ATARNnet)
edit: the below is more of a Manchu than a Korean knot. I should make an illustration of the Korean knot...
(https://i.imgur.com/dtqIxsL.jpg)
can also do an overhand or fig 8 on a bight, but that's very difficult/impossible to adjust
FF is so ridiculously strong, it doesn't matter that knots create a weak point. With lighter bows, it's not difficult to overbuild a dacron string either
Not necessary with dacron but with FF, I burn the tag end to prevent it slipping through the knot, and haven't had any problems with my 50# bow, shooting 7gpp. I used to use CA glue to secure the knot, too, but that makes it make a loud noise when it slams into the string bridge
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Willie, that doesn't look like a Boyers Knot(Timber Hitch) to me. The tail comes out in the wrong place. I googled Keg Knot and got nada. Could we get a better look at the first one.
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I've used a bowyers knot for 30 years with B-50 string and never had a string break; 14 strand x 2 ply for bows up to 65#.
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Willie, that doesn't look like a Boyers Knot(Timber Hitch) to me
it's not, it is just what I use for a bowyers knot. the tail reverses around the standing line to double the loop. lots of ways to finish it off depending on how permanent you want to make it. two half hitches is shown in the photo.
bubby is right, in that some knots weaken the line more than others. This hitch in particular is one of the worst for that, but it can be easily untied while under tension. Just plan accordingly...
I do not expect that google would help you with what is a local name for a commonly used knot around here. Just don't know what the rest of the world calls it.
actually the gangion knot and the korean knot, as shown in Loon's pic, are very similar. basically a slip knot with the running end tucked back into the knot a bit differently.
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Willie, that doesn't look like a Boyers Knot(Timber Hitch) to me
it's not, it is just what I use for a bowyers knot. the tail reverses around the standing line to double the loop. lots of ways to finish it off depending on how permanent you want to make it. two half hitches is shown in the photo.
bubby is right, in that some knots weaken the line more than others. This hitch in particular is one of the worst for that, but it can be easily untied while under tension. Just plan accordingly...
I do not expect that google would help you with what is a local name for a commonly used knot around here. Just don't know what the rest of the world calls it.
actually the gangion knot and the korean knot, as shown in Loon's pic, are very similar. basically a slip knot with the running end tucked back into the knot a bit differently.
Think I got it now. There's another strand hiding behind that tail.
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I like making strings!
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I like making strings!
Go and stand in the corner! ;)
Del
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Del, do you use double loop strings for your warbows?
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I saw ad for a fishing Spectra braid. Brand name is Power Pro and it comes in thicknesses from 0.10 to 0.56 mm. Most important thing here is the price. Whatever meters / 2 = price. So I can get 300 meters for 150 Croatian Kuna which is about 24$.
Would this be a good choice for a string material? Spectra is supposed to be non-creep material. I should probably put a lot of wax on it but is it any good?
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Yes it is very good and despite being slick it still twists up well with wax.
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Cool. Have you tried specifically fishing braid or Spectra specifically made for bowstrings that comes pre waxed?
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I am talking about the fishing line. Bowstring spectra is well proven. You're not experimenting with that.
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Once someone settles in on a certain type of string material they usually stay with it if they like it.Mine as far as FF material goes is FF plus from an archery supply business.
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Beadman, I would too if there was someone selling bowstring material in Croatia. Until now I bought always pre made FF strings that come in lengths for bows up to 70" ntn. Since I want to make longer bows (warbows) I must have access to good, strong and relatively cheap material so fishing braid presented itself as one of these choices. Ordering from abroad is not so good because of excessive shipping rates.
Pat, what diameter do you recommend, 0.40 mm enough and making 14,16 strand strings from it?
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Just go by the listed pound test to establish string count. Keep in mind even the heavier pound test is still very thin.
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Del, do you use double loop strings for your warbows?
I make continuous loop strings. These have two fixed loops each with half the thread count that the main body of the string, mind I lay in a couple of extra strands). I use low strand counts, typically 8 or 10 on light and medium weight bows and 12 on a warbow, but I pad the centre serving.
I have done a couple of Flemish twist linen strings tho' for correctness on a Hedeby style bow.
Del
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Stalker, there is a sticky about this subject put up last year
http://www.primitivearcher.com/smf/index.php/topic,58933.0.html
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I am just worried that it will "settle" or that it comes too thin or too thick, especially when I put on the serving. Wonder if I could serve with same material too, except I would not wax it?
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I am just worried that it will "settle" or that it comes too thin or too thick, especially when I put on the serving. Wonder if I could serve with same material too, except I would not wax it?
It certainly won't be too thick and you can just experiment with serving material to fill things out to fit your nocks.
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I thought about doing it flemish style.
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So?
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Nothing, with flemish loops, they are thicker than what we have with endless strings. And they don't have padding.