Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: Philipp A on September 17, 2017, 10:26:47 am
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Hi All,
Finally I had a chance to make some bows again. My latest project was a Haida Gwaii style bow with belly ridge modelled after the bows found in the Canadian Museum of History's Haida Gwaii Exhibit (highly recommended to visit). I left it unpainted since it is such beautiful wood (HHB from my own bush seasoned for 1 year). To view the pictures please click on the Google Photo Album link below (please let me know if you have any difficulty viewing the pictures):
https://photos.app.goo.gl/UiRDggf8vBqqoxXp1
This was a difficult bow to build and I started with the belly ridge early when making the bow since I did not know what to expect and I wanted to have enough wood so I could correct any mistakes. So it took me almost a month to make (I worked most days at least a couple of hours on it).
The only tools I have used (after roughing out the shape on the band saw) was a hoof rasp and a modified paint scraper that I have filed and sharpened to the shape of the belly ridge and double concave sides I wanted to make. It took me a while to realize from the Museum pictures that the bows actually had this belly ridge and I have always wanted to replicate it since that time.
Thank you Simon for your advice on the tillering of the bow and your overall feedback, it is much appreciated!
The bow shoots amazingly straight and the belly ridge seems to add some stiffness to the bow. I am shooting it "Comanche style with my thumb up, it fits naturally along the belly ridge and is most comfortable to shoot that way. I am working my way to fully draw the bow and at this time I have drawn it to ~ 23". My natural draw length is not much longer (around 24-25") and I am close to maxing out my maximum draw weight of ~70#. The bow has very little hand shock and is comfortable to shoot.
Here are the measurements:
1) 67' n/n
2) 55# @ 21", 65# @ 23"
3) Width at nocks: 5/8"
4) Width at widest point: ~1 5/8"
5) Width at handle: 1 3/16"
6) Thickness: 1/2" (except tips and handle, measured outside, does not account for concave portions in belly)
7) Thickness tips: 5/8"
8) Thickness handle centre: 7/8"
7) Weight: 616 grams (21.73 oz)
8) Average speed at 23" draw length measured with Chrony: 145 fps (except that number to go up quite a bit as I am working my way to fully draw the bow. Max speed was 151 fps measured at ~23")
9) String material: brown FF
10) String silencers: grey fox tail
11) Set after 24 hours rest: 3/4" (highest spot)
By the way I have woven in additional string material in the flemish loops to soften the impact on the nocks, thats why it might look a bit odd.
I would be grateful for any feedback you all might have and I am looking forward to your reviews.
Cheers,
Phil
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I forgot to mention that the first pics where I draw the bow was when the bow was still drawing 10# heavier at 21" and the last pics with drawn bow is with the bow finished.
PS: sorry for the mix up with the symbols finding their way into my numbered list, I should have previewed the post.
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I like it. Nice job. Any insights as to what the ridge does?
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That's a really nice bend you got there. :) Like DC I'm curious about the function of the belly ridge.
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Thanks guys for your reply and compliments. As to the function of the belly ridge I can only speculate. When you look at the pictures you will see two of the original bows from the Museum I have modelled my bow after. All 3 of those bows have the belly ridge. From my comparison with my other pyramid bows, this bow is a bit stiffer and it might give it some torsional support based on the shape. The Museum bows could also be ceremonial bows since they have other examples of cruder Haida Gwaii bows in their collection that have no decoration and are not nearly as nicely finished.
All I know it shoots very straight and I have less scatter in the target than with my other bows. It could have something to do with the way I grip the bow with the thumb up lodged against the belly ridge.
If anyone has seen this style of bow before other than the Museum bows I am showing in my pictures and has other ideas as to its function I would be very interested to hear.
Cheers,
Phil
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I thought I add a few pictures in the post since not all folks like to click links. For high resolution pics please click the link in the original post
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Well, I have seen the bow before posting and asked Philipp to show it here. I think he has done great work on a classy stave.
@ Philipp: Forgot to ask, the limb halves (left and right the ridge) do they have a "roof" profile or are they plan?
My thinking about the ridge: The Haida bows are a lot shorter and the ridge give stability to not torque. Also it adds strength with little mass added.
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Thanks Simon for your support and assistance when I was making the bow and your compliment, it means a lot to me. In regards to your question on the profile, I thought a picture is worth a thousand words. I am including the front view of the tool I have used which results besides the ridge in a double concave profile.
This is the reason why it took so long for me to finish the bow. I started using the scraper early (even before tillering) so that I would have enough material left in case I screw up.
Cheers,
Phil
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I've seen those bows and I don't recall seeing any ridges but it was pretty dark in there at the time. I might be going back there in the next couple days so I'll have a closer look
Nice bow by the way
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Hi Marc,
Thanks for the compliment it is much appreciated!
I am including a close up pic I took from the side of the museum exhibit. As you said it is pretty dark and hard to see and there is some glare from the window, but you can clearly see the belly ridge on the bow on the last bow to the right. On the other two it is less visible. This is the reason why it took me some time to figure this out. At first i thought it was a painted line and then I noticed the belly ridge which is very clearly visible especially from the transition of the black paint in the handle to the red paint of the limb.
Cheers,
Philipp
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Why are you short drawing that thing? You have more than enough length on that bow. Pull that sucker back!
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Hi Marc,
Here is another pic from the Museum where I have used the flash on my camera. Again you can see the belly ridge especially on the bow to the very right.
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@ Bryce: I am slowly working my way towards the full draw length with this bow. This is a stiff bow to pull (65# @ 23"). I naturally don't have a very long draw length and max out at 24-25" and have not pulled much more than a 70# bow. I will keep you posted as to my progress....
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I think similar ridges are used on bows from further up the pacific coast. Sinew cable is also used in many bows from further north. There are some primo woods available on Haida Gwaii that are not native further north, and how much wood was traded up and down the coast is an interesting question. Perhaps design infuences were share also? Some wood identifications made in museum collections may be just guesses, so it is hard to know if certain design features go hand in hand with described species. Do you recall what the museum bows were reportedly made from?
Perhaps the ridge serves as some sort of chrysal indicator during tillering or weather changes?
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@willie: I am including a picture of the label of the bows exhibited from the Museum. The bow to the very right with the most prominent belly ridge and concave sides is from a different collector and labeled No 26, the one in the middle is No 27 and the one on the very left No 28. The two bows in the middle and the left look like they don't have much of a concave section to the left and right of the belly ridge but look more like a roof shape.
They are all bows made from yew.
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Nice looking Bend! I'm with Bryce, pull that thing back! It's kinda like a double hollow limb design. Didn't Weylin make one a while ago? With a ridge down the belly. Someone posted one a while ago. Cheers- Brendan
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That's pretty cool, never seen one like that. :)
Pappy
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Thanks Penderbender and Pappy.
@Penderbender, do you remember when Weylin posted a similar bow? I would very much be interested to see it.
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That's a really nice replica! I like the tool you made for the belly ridge. And no offence but I have the same feeling as a few others, pull it back! It wil let your arrow scream at that draw weight! ( Just kidding, I can't draw more than 75 either;-) )
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Thanks @leonwood. I am slowly getting there in terms of pulling the bow. I can now get it back to the corner of my mouth where I normally have my anchor point (24-25" draw length depending on how straight I hold my arm). The maximum arrow speed I have obtained now is 158 fps and I have now more shots in the low 150s. Hopefully I get it over 160 fps soon... I am however more interested in how accurate I can shoot the bow than speed and I have better arrow groupings with this bow than with my other bows. It shoots really flat.
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I was in there today and it is very hard to tell but from a certain angle it does seem to have those ridges, my cell phone camera is just not up to the task. From the way the string sits in the nocks I'm just not sure if they are on the belly or back. I have taken pics with a digital camera of all that exhibit several years ago and there were a lot more bows than what is now shown. I just don't know where those pics are right now
There was another Haida bow in another section that looked very nice.
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Hi Marc,
Glad you had a chance to look at the Museum bows again. Besides the close up side view (some glass glare) which shows that at least for the two bows to the left the side with the belly ridge is the one that has a slope to both sides of the handle into each limb and it appears from what I can see the back is flat.
I am including another somewhat darker picture again from the side view that show that the two bows to the left show clearly some set bent towards the observer when standing in front. I can always post in a photo link a higher resolution of the picture if you have trouble seeing it. The bow on the right is a much heavier draw weight bow and also longer with the widest point in each limb in the middle of those limbs. I am still somewhat confused on that one which side is which. I have written to the Museum to see whether they have front and back pictures of the bows which would of course would be very helpful to get the complete picture on those bows.
On page 168 of the Traditional Bowyers Bible Volume One, Steve Allely describes some of the bows he has seen from British Columbia and some cross sections of those profiles are shown as well besides their description.
The profiles form those museum bows look a lot like profile "D" (Nootka) except that it doesn't have the concave ridge but a rounded ridge instead with double concave sides. Steve actually states that some of the bows he has seen had ridges running down the middle both the back and on the belly others had it only on the back like in profile "E" depicted on the same page 168. But that one is more like flat triangle.
Again hopefully someone will write back to me from the Museum so we can clear up the mystery.
If Steve still frequents these pages, it would be cool to hear from him on the subject, maybe he has some pictures of some of the bows he has seen that had the ridges.
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Penderbender, you are thinking of Carson's double hollow limb bow. :)
http://www.primitivearcher.com/smf/index.php/topic,58266.0.html
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Thanks Weylin! I was beginning to think I was dreaming. Stinks to photos are gone. Cheers- Brendan
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Do this Brendan, works a treat.
http://www.primitivearcher.com/smf/index.php/topic,61563.0.html
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Thank you Phil for sharing this inspiring bow!
Coonst
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Thanks to Coonst and all the others that have commented. And thanks Weylin for pointing out that Carson Brown has made a double HLD bow last year. I have reached out to Carson, so I could compare his bow to mine. It would be interesting to see the differences and how deep his concave sides are verses mine.
I still have a long way to go to reach the skill level of most of you. Carson, Simon's and Weylin's work are all an inspiration to me and all the others on this forum whose work I have seen and that I continue to admire!
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If the ridges are on the back, id say its a spine to attatch a line of sinew to. If the belly, id say its for chrysals to show up for over stress indicator. Probably left in place to show the integrity of the bow isnt compromised. i can see it as a display of skill as well, maybe add value to the bow if traded ?
My mind went on a hypothetical rant. Pardon me.
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Nice to see this bow here Philipp.
I feel the ridge adds strength without adding much mass. I think it might also benefit from heat-treating more than a flat belly as the ridge can be heated quite thoroughly and evenly in less time.
It is also interesting to consider how this might allow the back to curl up under tension pull while still giving the bow the benefit of a deeper cross section.
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Thanks Carson for your input it is much appreciated! I would be interested on whether anyone has experience with heat treating HHB. I would very much appreciate some advice on that. Right now the bow shoots really really nice. Zero hand shock and smooth draw and I can finally draw it back to my normal anchor point. Would there be an increased chance of chrysals if I would heat treat the belly?
Cheers,
Phil
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really nice craftmanship, congrats
Hans
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Nice repro bow. I'd have never thought of a tool to add the shape in one step. Well done.
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Thanks Chuck,
I first struggled to figure out how the Haida managed to make such straight belly ridges and perfect symmetrical concave sides. Then it dawned on me that they must have made themselves a stone scraper with the correct shape to achieve that kind of symmetry (at least that's what I think). That led me to sacrifice one of my paint scrapers I normally use to finish the tillering of my bows and file in the shape what I wanted. It was a bit hard to keep the tool sharp but it worked otherwise really great.
By the way I really like your HHB bow as well you have just posted. I have asked you some questions on heat treating and recurving the bow. Would love to keep in touch on the topic since I would like to try this myself.
Cheers,
Phil
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If anyone has seen this style of bow before other than the Museum bows I am showing in my pictures and has other ideas as to its function I would be very interested to hear.
Phil,
the bow on the left is a Makah, 3'-10" long, and made from yew.
BTW, did any of your inquiries yield additional info about this design?
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thanks willie, much appreciated! That is a very short bow for the Makah! They must have been very skilled bowyers to make these short self bows (I understand the Makah is not backed).
The museum did get back to me but the pictures were very low resolution and of not much use to me. They said I need to make an appointment to see the bows up close and to measure them. I will take them up on the invitation and hopefully will get to see them in January or February so I can take some close up shots of the bows. I will keep you posted.
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thanks,
I forgot the link to a copy of the original printing of
North American bows, arrows, and quivers. By Otis Tufton Mason
https://catalog.hathitrust.org/Record/100343631
and you are correct, in that it had no sinew. Interestingly, it was reported that "This bow is exactly of the form of the sinew-lined bows further south and inland.