Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: Badger on September 25, 2017, 11:10:53 am
-
I am working on a low elevation yew bow right now. About 1 1/2" wide and 68" long. I was skeptical about the width being too narrow starting off but I decided to go with a 50# projection anyway. The bow has a 10" stiff handle and fade section with slightly over 2" in reflexed tips. I usually keep a bow like this on the long string until I reach 50#@24". When I hit 50#@22" I thought I lost about 1#in set but wasn't sure I read my scale right so went ahead and tillered out to 23" at which point I was more careful about reading my scale at the benchmark of 17". After drawing to 23" and coming back to 17" and rechecking again there was no doubt it dropped another pound. The mass was also falling too low at this point from a projected mass of 22 oz down to 20 oz and I still had a ways to go. I decided to drop my target weight to 35# instead of 50#. Will update with the results. The measured set at this point is 1/8".
-
Nice evaluation sequence Steve.Thanks for sharing.
-
Knowing how much adjustment to make when one first notices the changes, is where experience comes in handy. Thanks for the numbers. Do you think that there might be a formula for that?
-
thank you Steve,, evey time you explain ,,, I understand more and more and am able to incorporate into what I am doing,
-
Thanks Steve I appreciate the posts not commenting much but following your method !
-
Steve how do you aproach target weight tillering?
-
Steve how do you aproach target weight tillering?
John, I always start out with a target weight in mind. I think my method might be somewhat of a time waster but it seems to work for me pretty well and maybe only adds a couple of hours to a bow. Instead of floor tillering to first brace I have started going to the long string much sooner. Once I get just a little flex in the bow I go to the long string. The first thing I do is even up the tiller even though I know I have a long way to go, I want to start off as even as possible. Each time I pull the bow on the tree I pull to full target weight. I stop a few inches short of target weight to set a benchmark for weight. Lts say I am reading 36#@14" on the long string. I go straight to 50# at whatever length that is and pull it several times and then I go back to the 14" mark to see if the weight changed, if the weight changed I reevaluate the bow, I either look for places I can get more wood bending or lower my target weight expectations. This year I built 3 English longbows using this method, all 3 took no set and all three broke world records for distance. The hundred pounder beat the existing record by about 40 yards and it was a much lighter bow.
-
wow thats imprssive,,, I would say it worth the time and effort
so it it starts taking set on long string, how much do you lower your target weight..there was one thread where you expained how to see the max,, target weight,, I cant find it,,
-
I am working on a low elevation yew bow right now. About 1 1/2" wide and 68" long. I was skeptical about the width being too narrow starting off but I decided to go with a 50# projection anyway. The bow has a 10" stiff handle and fade section with slightly over 2" in reflexed tips. I usually keep a bow like this on the long string until I reach 50#@24". When I hit 50#@22" I thought I lost about 1#in set but wasn't sure I read my scale right so went ahead and tillered out to 23" at which point I was more careful about reading my scale at the benchmark of 17". After drawing to 23" and coming back to 17" and rechecking again there was no doubt it dropped another pound. The mass was also falling too low at this point from a projected mass of 22 oz down to 20 oz and I still had a ways to go. I decided to drop my target weight to 35# instead of 50#. Will update with the results. The measured set at this point is 1/8".
Had you continued on the 50# road and hang the set, how do you think the the bow would perform compared to the 35# version? Looking at it from a hunting point of view and also a flight point of view? Also is there a chance that the 35# bow would just flat out shoot a setty 50# bow.
-
I am working on a low elevation yew bow right now. About 1 1/2" wide and 68" long. I was skeptical about the width being too narrow starting off but I decided to go with a 50# projection anyway. The bow has a 10" stiff handle and fade section with slightly over 2" in reflexed tips. I usually keep a bow like this on the long string until I reach 50#@24". When I hit 50#@22" I thought I lost about 1#in set but wasn't sure I read my scale right so went ahead and tillered out to 23" at which point I was more careful about reading my scale at the benchmark of 17". After drawing to 23" and coming back to 17" and rechecking again there was no doubt it dropped another pound. The mass was also falling too low at this point from a projected mass of 22 oz down to 20 oz and I still had a ways to go. I decided to drop my target weight to 35# instead of 50#. Will update with the results. The measured set at this point is 1/8".
Had you continued on the 50# road and hang the set, how do you think the the bow would perform compared to the 35# version? Looking at it from a hunting point of view and also a flight point of view? Also is there a chance that the 35# bow would just flat out shoot a setty 50# bow.
Thats a good question, If the set happened at 24" with a bow braced I might keep going 1" at a time and if it only developed a total of say 1" set or lost no more than 5# due to set I would still have a nice shooting bow. If I am building a flight bow I really try to go for almost zero, like no more than 2 or 3# loss total.
I will give you a more dramatic example, years ago I went to a walk the talk fastest bow contest. I brought several bows along. One of them was tillered out to 24" and shooting 10 grains at 175fps which was the fastest I had ever gotten for that draw length. Once the event started I realized it was a pain to readjust the machine to 24" so i told them to go ahead and draw it out and test at 28", well the bow only gained 2# and was still shooting at 175 at 28" still decent but all the super performance was lost overdrawing what the bow could actually take.
-
Thanks for all your great explanations! I am totally committed to try this on my next bow!
-
One thing I think I have mentioned but if not I will say it again. If you know the wood and know the design and you know it to be well within the limits of the wood there is no need for a no set tillering procedure. Once I establish a good design and width to work with I don't stick to very strictly because I have confidence in the design. I like it mainly when working outside my comfort zone or when I am trying to zero in on best dimensions for a given design.
-
One thing I think I have mentioned but if not I will say it again. If you know the wood and know the design and you know it to be well within the limits of the wood there is no need for a no set tillering procedure. Once I establish a good design and width to work with I don't stick to very strictly because I have confidence in the design. I like it mainly when working outside my comfort zone or when I am trying to zero in on best dimensions for a given design.
I guess when all is said and done this is how I tiller. I can usually achieve less than an inch of set. Sometimes better than that.
-
One thing I think I have mentioned but if not I will say it again. If you know the wood and know the design and you know it to be well within the limits of the wood there is no need for a no set tillering procedure. Once I establish a good design and width to work with I don't stick to very strictly because I have confidence in the design. I like it mainly when working outside my comfort zone or when I am trying to zero in on best dimensions for a given design.
How often does a piece of wood surprise you? I would have swore that you could have got a 50# bow out of a piece of yew like that. But then I haven't made many 50# bows. More like 40's.
-
I could have gotten 50# but not maintained the reflex I wanted, as an elb I could have easily gotten 50#.
-
Well, cutting back to 35# target weight was a good decision. Hasn't dropped any more weight and I have it out to 26". As the bow thinned down it gained a little reflex. I went ahead and sanded it all up and tommorw get it out to 28" and finish it off. Very good shooter. I will post some pics if it doesn't break. By measurement it hasn't taken any set but by pounds dropped by overcompressing I was able to identify about 2#.
-
Sounds good looking forward to seeing it !
-
I always enjoy your posts, each time again I learn something new.
About those three record-breaking ELBs that you made this way: where and when did you (or some other archer) break these records? I'm curious about such cutting-edge flight shooting, as always.
-
I always enjoy your posts, each time again I learn something new.
About those three record-breaking ELBs that you made this way: where and when did you (or some other archer) break these records? I'm curious about such cutting-edge flight shooting, as always.
I was very fortunate to have built the bows for a Hungarian gentleman named Josef Munoz and his family. He is currently the most winning flight shooter in the world, he knows how to shoot. He and his family broke the records at the recent flight shooting event held at the Salt Flats in Wendover Utah.
-
congrats again in fine world record shooting bows,, :)
-
Steve, were those record breaking bows bamboo backed ipe or yew? I have always felt like yew was going to take a little set no matter what, but that it didn't seem to suffer in performance from an inch or two of set like some other woods do.
I wonder if the performance you are getting is more a result of a near perfect tillering job than it is the no set aspect? The near perfect tillering being a result of the attempt to have zero set.
A test would be to take one of your zero set bows and after testing speeds with a 10 gpp arrow, pike it a 1/2" on each end. Let it take its set and then test with a a new 10 grain per pound arrow.
Great stuff you are sharing Steve. I appreciate it, even if it is making me rethink what I thought I knew ;)
-
Carson, I actually did some extensive testing on that a few years ago. I was trying to find out if hysteresis was inherent to wood or something we induced during the tillering process. The evidence cleary showed that most hysteresis is actually induced by crushed wood fibers. I actually already knew this but wanted to find a test that could prove it. Strong evidence suggests this when shooting bows that have only been tillered out to 23" or so, ever notice how crisp they shoot? That's what actually got me started on actually testing for it.
I finished up the little low elevation 35# I was working on here in the thread, it actually picked up reflex instead of set, about 3/4 of an inch. Shoots great. I took some pics but can't figure out how to find them on my computer, I think I may have deleted them, not real tec savvy here. I also need some more arrows, I will get with you in a couple of days 5/16 the heaviest spine you don't have. 11/32 is ok if you don't have 5/16.
The winning bows were boo backed ipe.
-
Strong evidence suggests this when shooting bows that have only been tillered out to 23" or so, ever notice how crisp they shoot? That's what actually got me started on actually testing for it.
I can't help but recall what Tim wrote about another 23" bow a while back
The combined Ishi-Pyramid bow. Steve Gardner and I combined have tested over 5000 bows. This 57# at 23" red oak board bow is the fastest straight self-bow either of us have ever tested at this draw length.
Thanks for sharing, Steve.
-
lots of times I start shooting a bow at 20 inches and on out,, the chrono,, tells me what I can expext,,
sometime Badger will chime in that its shooting good for a shorter draw,, and I have found as stated above a short draw bow can shoot surprisingly well,, its counter intuitive becuase of the shorter power stroke, but as stated sometimes the longer draw is a wash because of the set the bow starts taking,,
thats amazing about the 57# at 23,, what was the bow shooting,, fps,,
I will add that if you are shooting the bow through the chrono as you tiller,, if you extend the draw and you dont see an increase in cast,, you know you are compressing the wood,,even if you cant see it in set,,,
-
Brad that was so long ago I don't remember, I do remember one boo backed bow I had that was shooting 175 @ 24", when I drew it out to 28" eventually it didn't get any faster and barely gained any weight. I think a good piece of wood can hold its own against fiberglass if we nail the design and tiller.
-
thanks,, I see these guys all the time say the longer draw is always better, I have just never quite believed that,,
-
Brad, I am pretty well convinced that a lot of us have been slightly under designing our bows for a long time. Every once in a while we get one just right by accident and they shoot like demons. Thats why I say no set tillering is only useful for locking in a design. Once you ahve the design figured out that will give you a minimum of set you have no more need to do the no set tiller process. I still use t because I like to crowd my bending areas and it lets me know when to stretch out and get a little more limb bending somewhere else.
-
59 25" NTN, shooting a 560 gr arrow @172 fps
specs and pics pp. 125-6 TBB4
-
Thanks Willie, I need to look that one up and refresh my memory.
-
This thread has brought the no set tiller in pespective for me Im glad you posted what you did Steve Im going to use it on my current bow but Im starting out really wide & over built and going to use the no set method to side tiller to draw weight if Im understanding it right it should work ? My thinking is in the early stages no worries about excesive set being wide & can get to draw and weight with minimal set !
-
This thread has brought the no set tiller in pespective for me Im glad you posted what you did Steve Im going to use it on my current bow but Im starting out really wide & over built and going to use the no set method to side tiller to draw weight if Im understanding it right it should work ? My thinking is in the early stages no worries about excesive set being wide & can get to draw and weight with minimal set !
Stickbender use the no set tiller in conjunction with the bow mass and it will zero you in on the right demenisons, you might be shocked at how wide your bow ends up, just make sure you have the mass where you need it. More mass allows you to add stress to your design, reflex, shorter working areas etc.
-
I took my little 35# low elevation yew bow out this morning and flight shooted it. My chrono doesn't work. It exceeded my expectations. I was hoping for 180 yards and I hit over 200. I am going to go back tomorrow for a more accurate measure. I was just counting the fence posts that were 10ft apart. I shot down a fence line.
-
Steve,
looking back over this thread, I see that you move your benchmark as you tiller. In the opening post you were still using a 17" benchmark for a pull of 23" . Later on in the thread you mentioned a "I stop a few inches short of target weight to set a benchmark for weight."
Does it seem to matter much. how close your benchmark is, to where you are working ?
-
Willie, it doesn't really matter where you put the benchmark as long as you reestablish it every time you go to the tree.
-
Thanks Steve my last bow of this design took minimal set but marked the design areas that where on the verge of set and beefing those up substantialy and adding reflex on this one so well give your system a go I'm thinking of it as the Mass principal Gen 2
-
Thanks Steve my last bow of this design took minimal set but marked the design areas that where on the verge of set and beefing those up substantialy and adding reflex on this one so well give your system a go I'm thinking of it as the Mass principal Gen 2
What will you be building?
-
This one is going to be a 66 in. Osage Lever bow haven't decided on lever length but probably 8 1/2,in I want to induce 4-5 in. of reflex to start probably strait levers would like to keep 2.5 in. of reflex or better 48 lb at 29 1/4 I'm thinking 1 3/4 out of the fades 1 5/8 mid to 1 in. at the lever fades the 68 in. version of this design was 1 1/2 in. Out of the fades 1 3/8 mid to 7/8 at the lever fade same weight and draw it's holding 1/4 reflex with none induced took minimal set but noticed at the mids it was just about to so I'm figuring with 2 in. Shorter with the added mass should get me in the ball park I was planning on tillering to about 20 in. or so & using the no set tiller and side tiller to get to draw weight & mass !
-
This taken after finishing up on the tiller tree and maybe a dozen arrows had gone through it, about 2 1/4" reflex, after flight shooting today the reflex had increased to 3 1/2", I will get another photo.
-
The profile on that bow is holding up very good and seems to like it if it is even increasing.It would'nt be drying out a bit more yet too would it?
-
Very nice I like the slow bending hooks , I was curious about the increasing reflex also , if you get a chance to Chrono please post I would bet you have a wicked ultra light there !
-
that bow is very nice, I bet its a sweet shooter,, (SH)
-
The only bow I've had do that was a piece of Doug Maple. It was the tension side of a piece that had been held straight for drying. As I removed belly wood it gained reflex. Does Yew have tension wood?
-
Very nice I like the slow bending hooks , I was curious about the increasing reflex also , if you get a chance to Chrono please post I would bet you have a wicked ultra light there !
I figure it was tension wood just coming back with the belly thinning. I don't have my chrono at the moment but I took it out and test shot it for distance with a 450 grain arrow. It exceeded my expectations by quite a bit. I was hoping for 180 yards but I got well over 200 yards with no wind. I am going to double check my measurements but I am pretty sure it was at least 208, all arrows were tightly grouped.
From a grains per pound standpoint I am pretty sure it is the fastest self bow I have ever built a little behind my best laminated. They don't have a 35# class for men so I will see if I can get a lady to shoot it.
-
Congratulations on that self bow Steve.Outstanding!!I'm sure the bow must feel light as a feather in the hand.Do you think being a fresh bow helps too?
-
Congratulations on that self bow Steve.Outstanding!!I'm sure the bow must feel light as a feather in the hand.Do you think being a fresh bow helps too?
It probably does help although one of the main reasons for no set tillering is that they stay fresh because you are never going into that zone where they break down.
-
Yes I gather that concept and goal and believe it is the smart and best way to be making bows that are durable.So I guess then it should'nt show much signs of use over time then like a couple thousand arrows and 500 hours of extended bracing times.
-
Yes I gather that concept and goal and believe it is the smart and best way to be making bows that are durable.So I guess then it should'nt show much signs of use over time then like a couple thousand arrows and 500 hours of extended bracing times.
One of the first I did like that before I had actually named the system I used for about 8 years. 3-d competition as well as flight once a year. I doubt it had anywhere near 2000 hours brace time maybe 500 but easily had 2,000 or more arrows through it. Never lost 1 pound of weight. As it seasoned I had to nock off weight every year to make the 50# limit. It continued to break the it's own record as it aged until I gave it away last year as fresh as the day it was built and still improving on performance. Gaining and loosing moisture while braced is what I believe causes some accumulative damage. I always unbrace when I am done shooting.
-
Does Yew have tension wood?
there is a good discussion of this Q. here. http://www.primitivearcher.com/smf/index.php/topic,55682.0.html
I have always been curious about the qualities of the wood on the tension side, and how it relates to bowmaking.
The difficulties I have run into is a lack of hard science, and a practical way to test for differences. Compression qualities are much better understood, as wood usually fails there first.
I suspect that the differences in tension quality of a stave might make the difference we often see between a good bow and an exceptional bow. The exceptional bow, of course, also needs good compression quality, proper design and careful tillering. It does seems logical, (to me anyhow), that making a bow with minimal set or cell compaction, may be the best way to let good tension quality contribute to the overall performance.
-
I agree Willie, I nver have figured out a way to isolate tension from compression as far as what they are doing in any particular bow. I believe you are right. Sometimes you run into a good pice where the tension does seem to show itslef.
-
Yes I gather that concept and goal and believe it is the smart and best way to be making bows that are durable.So I guess then it should'nt show much signs of use over time then like a couple thousand arrows and 500 hours of extended bracing times.
One of the first I did like that before I had actually named the system I used for about 8 years. 3-d competition as well as flight once a year. I doubt it had anywhere near 2000 hours brace time maybe 500 but easily had 2,000 or more arrows through it. Never lost 1 pound of weight. As it seasoned I had to nock off weight every year to make the 50# limit. It continued to break the it's own record as it aged until I gave it away last year as fresh as the day it was built and still improving on performance. Gaining and loosing moisture while braced is what I believe causes some accumulative damage. I always unbrace when I am done shooting.
Well then that's like a lot of the bows that hang around here.I shoot my bows extensively besides the 3D shoots and hunting with them.Unbracing after use also.Although not tested for breaking records are shot through a chronograph occasionally if I see it fit for curiosities sake.They stay good shooters here too and as winters go by poundage does gain a bit too.To keep way from any set retillering is needed.As said by yourself before there are many of us besides me who are probably tillering in a low stress manner and method without bringing attention to it.It's good as I said before that you are.It can only bring more nice bows out to the public.
-
Ed makes a good point about poundage increases with climate change I also have had greener osage increase over time somthing to think about if your going for no set tiller , but the part of this I have a hard time wraping my brain around is the increased mass unless the increased reflex over comes the increased mass of course I can therories all day but won't know tell I build a bow trying it !
-
Ed makes a good point about poundage increases with climate change I also have had greener osage increase over time somthing to think about if your going for no set tiller , but the part of this I have a hard time wraping my brain around is the increased mass unless the increased reflex over comes the increased mass of course I can therories all day but won't know tell I build a bow trying it !
The increased mass is just based on the concept that width controls the draw weight of a bow and thickness just contols how far it can safely bend. In theory bows of the same design aside from width would have the same thickness but the heavier bow would be wider. So any added stress from reflex, draw length or shorter working areas has to be accounted for by adding width or mass.
-
I just finished up another one that didn't come out as good as the yew bow. My own fault. A 70" osage bow stiff handle. I heated in 2 1/2" reflex out of the form. It held 2" of that up to the first brace and 24" draw. I lost another 1" in the last 4" of draw. I didn't respond quick enough to the first signs of set by going deeper into the fades and getting my outer limbs working more. More patience and I could have easily had a top shooter. I still have a good shooter but didn't get the full potential. I have found that very well made self bows with conservative designs can usually shoot in the low 170's. If you get the no set tiller just right the same profile can suddenly jump up to the 180 mark.
-
I have found that very well made self bows with conservative designs can usually shoot in the low 170's. If you get the no set tiller just right the same profile can suddenly jump up to the 180 mark.
allow me to add to this "shooting 10 grains per pound of draw weight".
-
Steve, when you are tillering a heat treated bow how do you deal with the treating pulling out compared to the bow taking set? Put another way, if you have established a bench mark and then pulled to full draw weight and then come back to your bench mark how do you know if a change in the bench mark is due to set or just a bit of induced reflex pulling out?
-
That's a really good question, I have addressed it before but don't have a good answer, only a theory. I know for a fact that some induced reflex will just pull out naturally. Its not really set. The best way I have found to identify it is creep back in a rested bow. If it doesn't creep back it really hasn't taken set. What makes it hard and takes a lot away from this technique is that the early induced reflex does carry some weight that will drop. I like to allow 1/2" but have seen plenty of instances where I know I could have allowed more. This is partly what screwed me up yesterday, I treated the first part of the set as just not holding all the reflex when in fact it was actually taking some set. The best I can come up with right now is that the no set method is not 100%, just another tool to help us out if we are looking to hone in on a design. It does give us a better chance of getting that super bow here and there. I build all different styles and lengths and weights of bows so I rely heavily on the no set method but if you have already honed in on good dimensions for a given design it won't help much. I started off yesterday building a 70# bow, 1 3/4" wide, 70" long. I figured that was overkill to get started on. Early losses made me decide to drop down to 50#, it was holding very well so I started refining down the edges as I increased the draw, lowering the mass as I went. I ended up 1 1/2 wide pyramid design. I am overall very happy with the bow but I know I blew it for much better performance by not responding quick enough to what it was telling me. The bow comes back to 2" reflex after resting which tells me it is true set it took, not all that bad but I am still kicking myself in the but, the stave was perfect.
-
Not really as bad as I thought, I went out and put about a dozen arrows through it and it was sitting 1 3/8 reflex when I first unbrace then goes back to 2", going to flight shoot it on saturday morning.
-
With my limited skills I find the last 4 in. of draw to be the reflex killer if not done right , Steve at what point do you induce your reflex when using your method ? Congrats on your bow & it still holding over 50% reflex.
-
Stick, I don't have a set rule but when I have the bow bending pretty well on the long string or roughly about 22" of draw. I have been going to the brace at 24" draw but I might move that down to 22"
-
Good discussion, Thanks for sharing your wisdom and ideas Steve
-
I took the 70" osage out this morning and flight shot it. Not competitive for world records but a very good shooter. Shortest shot 210 yds longest shot 215 yds. No wind. I think I will stay with the 70" for a few more bows and do a better job of avoiding set. The bow is close enough that I can see where the little bit of set I got cost me. I love the way the longer bows shoot, smooth as silk. I seem to be creeping up in length about 1" a year for my favorite bows. I am going to designate this bow as my 3-d shooter for the time being. Current self bow broadhead record is 221 yards with a 500 grain arrow. We lowered the arrow weight to 450 grains so I am looking for 235 yards minimum. I shot the current record with a little wind behind me which can easily add 5 or 10 yards if the arrow is following it right.
-
The bow I'm hunting with this year is 68 in. It's the longest bow that I have ever hunted with but like the extra length for smoothness & accuracy , it's easier for me to pull more weight with the longer smooth drawing less stacking longer bows they are fun to shoot and hold reflex well !