Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Arrows => Topic started by: DC on October 02, 2017, 11:24:57 am
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Sorry to bring this up again but I seem to have a mental block about it. I put my arrow in the spine checker and check the spine at various positions as I rotate it. I find the position where the spine meter reads the highest and mark the top of the arrow(that would be the concave side). Do I put the mark against the bow?
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Doc
The stiff side to the bow seems to be the conventional wisdom with shoots, at least, but I am probably the least experienced arrow/bow maker here. That is what I am doing.
Hawkdancer
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I guess I wasn't very clear. What I'm trying to find out for sure is which is the "stiff side". I tend to overthink things and in my mind "stiff side" can have a few meanings. I also have it in my mind which way the arrow should go and it seems to contradict how I'm interpreting "stiff side to the bow".
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Generally (read - in a perfect world) the arrow nock should be perpendicular to the shaft grain, and the shaft grain should be horizontal as it sits on the bow shelf - and the top of the Arrow (concave) as it was on the spine tester is facing the bow. Russ.
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On a spiner with the weight attached and the shaft bowing[concave side].That's the side against the bow if it's the stiffer reading.I mark my spine on the shaft and weight by the nock on the other side so it's visible when nocking an arrow also so I know where to cut my nock on shoot shafts for self nocks.I don't ever use plastic glue on nocks on my arrows.If your making arrows that way that's the way it's done for self nocks.A 1/2" wide wrap should be done below the nock then too for safetys' sake.
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On a spiner with the weight attached and the shaft bowing[concave side].That's the side against the bow if it's the stiffer reading.
Thanks Ed. That also fits in with my way of thinking so everything is good.
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I had to ponder the same question as you stated too then through making enough arrows the procedure was solved.
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With doweled arrows there are 2 predetermined possible stiff sides, the sides with the edge grain but because of the direction of the grain "flames" only one of these sides is safe to put against the bow. Cane and hardwood shoots are different and their stiff side has to be determined and that side goes against the bow.
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Yes +1 of what Pat B said and I should have mentioned it.Split timber shafts to be the safest with the rift grain points or flames pointing at you and the edge grain on the bow only have 1 choice of a side against the bow with self nocks.
That's why when buying split timber shafts it's important the seller does his testing on them properly before sending them away.
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Ed, I think you may have a typo. You want the grain arrows or flames on split shafts to point away from the archer, along the top of the arrow, as it sits on the shelf. In this way, if the arrow splits on release, the back portion will hopefully travel up and away from the bow hand.
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Also, split shafts can be used one of two ways, depending on which end you designate as the nock end. Once nock end is set, only one way is left to you, unless the shaft has no runout.
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Russel...I want the rift grain that goes across my knuckle to have the grain run out or tips to be pointed at me not my hand.That way if the arrow does break on release I want the points the opposite direction of my hand.
With that being said the rift fade out is the opposite on the other side most times so there is only one side to shoot from but sometimes the points are both ways on some shafts too yet.If the shaft is the proper spine for the bow most always the arrow will not break anyway.
Should mention too one should always check wooden arrows occasionally.The self nocks and the shaft etc. for any damage.
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I agree, we want to situate the arrow so that if it does break on release, that it does not go into the bow hand. The front portion of the broken arrow falls away since there is nothing pushing it forward. Tthe rear portion of our hypothetical broken arrow is still being propelled by the string towards the bow hand. This broken arrow, will break along the grain, diagonally, from the grain flame on the top, following that growth ring, to the grain flame on the bottom. This diagonal line will act as a kinda ramp, and will dictate the direction the back half of the arrow will follow, and we want this ramp to urge the back half arrow portion to travel up and over the bow hand, not down into it. Thus, we want to orientate our grain flames pointing towards the target on the top half of the arrow so that, if it does break, the broken grain line will be, from arrow top to bottom, going from further away to closer to the shooter. A picture is worth a thousand words, and I don't have one. I hope you are able to form a mental one.
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Like this?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KhUOoyz6ips#t=3m30s
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I agree, we want to situate the arrow so that if it does break on release, that it does not go into the bow hand. The front portion of the broken arrow falls away since there is nothing pushing it forward. Tthe rear portion of our hypothetical broken arrow is still being propelled by the string towards the bow hand. This broken arrow, will break along the grain, diagonally, from the grain flame on the top, following that growth ring, to the grain flame on the bottom. This diagonal line will act as a kinda ramp, and will dictate the direction the back half of the arrow will follow, and we want this ramp to urge the back half arrow portion to travel up and over the bow hand, not down into it. Thus, we want to orientate our grain flames pointing towards the target on the top half of the arrow so that, if it does break, the broken grain line will be, from arrow top to bottom, going from further away to closer to the shooter. A picture is worth a thousand words, and I don't have one. I hope you are able to form a mental one.
Yes I think we agree on the safety concept of construction.I'm going by the construction layout shown in the TBB 3 book of custom made shafts.Footing arrow shafts.There is a picture there of the rift gain in relation to the nock.
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I will look at TBB 3 tonite.
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Page 250 at the top in the TBB 3.
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I could not find my copy last nite. I will find it tonite.
I did, though, search the PA archives as well as Trad Gang, and found numerous threads and diagrams showing and explaining that the grain flames should be oriented on the top of the arrow by pointing towards the arrow head (bow hand) for the reason we have been discussing. In looking back at your statement, you were talking about the grain flames running over your bow hand when you shoot off of it. Maybe we agree? The flames that would run over your hand would be those on the bottom of the shaft, and would, in my way of thinking, be pointing at the nock, as they will always be opposite the flames on the top of the arrow. Although I never thought about the grain flames catching my hand, in normal use, lime feathers, your reasoning is consistent (for a different reason)with my "broken arrow" fear and reasoning for the top of the arrow flames pointing towards the head.
I urge you to search the PA archives and tell me if you don't find what I found. I searched wood arrow grain orientation in google and got PA and Trad Gang threads as well as numerous diagrams. I just don't know to post them here. Don't know about you, but I can't see what loon was trying to post.
Russ
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RB
Loons "link" is non-clickable, but if you click on the word "select" just above, you can copy/paste into the address bar of the browser, oryou have tabs in your browser, you can just drag it to the tab bar
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Just watched loons posted video. Although the guy says that the grain should be downward and back - the photo of the arrow is he holding shows the rift grain pointing forward on the top (back on the bottom) of the shaft.
See this diagram
h ttp://tradbow.com/wood-grain-direction/
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So, I found my TBB 3 and looked at the diagram on the top of page 250. This diagram attempts to explain the two different types of grain configuration we could expect to see in a split shaft. The text uses the terms reed and rift. I would use the term "edge grain" for what they call reed - and I think we agree that this is the edge of the shaft most likely to spine the highest value, and it is then therefore this edge which goes against the bow slight window. The other type of grain, I call rift or we have been referring to it as the grain run out or grain flames or points. This rift grain will point one way on one side of the shaft and the opposite way 180 degrees around. That is all this diagram purports to show. It did not, as far as I could tell, indicate which way the rift flames should point in a finished arrow. As the diagram I posted yesterday shows, you should orientate the rift flames on the top of the finished shaft to point at the arrow head. Although it is not common to have a shaft break on release, if it does, the shooter will be safer if orientated this way. I hope your research leads you to agree. Russ.
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Yes I'm good with the way I make my split timber shafts.The points are visible of the flames of the rift on page 230.I've never had a shaft break into my hand as what we are talking about.Off some highly reflexed bows too yet if that makes a diff.
Ed.
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Another reference as to what I mean RB.Been making them this way for quite a while and it's the correct way with no problems.There was some glare on the first picture from the fash.Here's a better picture.
(https://i.imgur.com/yWYnel4.jpg)
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Ed
I can understand you not wanting to change the method you have been using, but if it can be improved, maybe you should give it some consideration??? As to the pics you reference, they demonstrate or indicate that the rift grain flames of the shafts should point towards the arrow head, on the top of the arrow, as it sits on the shelf, as I have been attempting to explain.
With the picture from the book you just posted, only the bottom right photo indicates in which direction the arrow head is to be (to the left). The grain of the arrow in this picture shows the rift flames facing towards the head.
In TBB, on page 230, there is a stick figure drawing re spine. But the facing page 231, shows an arrow sitting on a grain scale. The rift grain flames are visible in this picture, and they too, are oriented so as to face the arrow head on the top of the shaft (we can tell it is the top of shaft due to the nock and nock indicator).
So, once again, I am thinking, if these pictures of the arrow rift grain are how you orient your shafts, then we are in agreement. From your other writings in this thread, though, I got the impression you were advocating that the rift grain flames on the top of the shaft should be pointing to the nock end of the arrow - and if this is what you believe, then not only do we disagree, but I also believe you are mis-understanding the pictures and diagrams you have drawn attention to.
Russ
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RB...My interpretation of the pictures is correct.The way I make them the arrow if it does break will angle off away from my bow hand.Leaving the points from the broken arrow pointing away from the bow hand. I believe your wrong and we'll just have to agree to disagree.