Primitive Archer

Main Discussion Area => Shooting and Hunting => Topic started by: DC on October 13, 2017, 10:51:35 am

Title: Deer death
Post by: DC on October 13, 2017, 10:51:35 am
I've wondered about this and OO's post http://www.primitivearcher.com/smf/index.php/topic,61728.0.html
 brought it up. He showed a deer that had been shot through the heart and yet still ran 40yds. I've seen a few stories of deer that got hit by the arrow, walked a few feet, and fell over dead. Any ideas why some would run and some wouldn't?
Title: Re: Deer death
Post by: PEARL DRUMS on October 13, 2017, 11:46:19 am
Heart shot deer always run a bit, double lung deer can fall over quickly at times. Keep in mind a deer can run 50-100 yards in 3-4 seconds with no heart or lung functions. Most good hits are over 10 seconds or less.
Title: Re: Deer death
Post by: osage outlaw on October 13, 2017, 11:47:30 am
Deer can react different to being shot.  Both of the ones I killed this year bolted as soon as they were hit.  They went on a dead straight run and dropped about 40 yards away.  I guess the sudden burst of adrenaline is what causes them to run a short distance.  My first self bow kill was a buck that I shot in the heart with a stone point.  When my arrow hit, the deer flinched and looked around.  He continued walking up the hill like nothing was wrong.  He had no idea that an arrow was sticking through his heart.  After a short distance he started to wobble and then tried to run.  That was an unusual reaction from my experiences.  When I hit one in the heart/lungs, they normally take off in a straight line and crash through brush or whatever gets in there way.  If the shot is less than perfect a deer will find a trail and stick with it.  This is just my observations from 25 years of putting meat in the freezer.  My hunting area is thickly wooded hills with some hay fields.  Maybe deer react different with other terrains. 
Title: Re: Deer death
Post by: BowEd on October 13, 2017, 12:13:30 pm
Most times they run.Some farther then others.I found to hit them completely relaxed is best.I hunt thick vegetated areas also.Had the same experience as Clint with an eight point too.A pass through ground level from a blind.The buck just hopped once and continued just walking away slowly.It was confusing a bit.I usually watch exactly where the fletching disappears and this time it disappeared completely quickly.I thought I might have missed.Things happen fast.I waited and waited saying to myself there's no way I could have missed since it was around an eight yard shot.I finally went out and looked at the crime scene after around an hour.I found my arrow 30 feet beyond the deer red from tip to tip.I found him 40 yards away later after following a blood trail on both sides of his tracks.
This is what I like about quiet self bows.A deer gets stung and bumped by many things as walks along.A well placed arrow from a good quiet selfbow with a very sharp broad head could feel no more upsetting then getting stung by a big bee or getting poked by a sharp stick for all they know since they have no idea it came from the bowhunter.They don't realize they are dieing from blood loss far as I'm concerned in my opinion and really can't do anything about it.
Title: Re: Deer death
Post by: DC on October 13, 2017, 12:25:45 pm
Is it possible that the ones that run actually hear the arrow leave the bow but it takes a split second to tense up and start running and by that time the arrow is there. So they are in running mode as the arrow hits and it looks to the hunter like the deer ran as it was hit. The ones that don't hear the arrow just keep on walking like nothing happened.
Title: Re: Deer death
Post by: osage outlaw on October 13, 2017, 12:30:05 pm
I hit a buck in the shoulder blade once with a modern bow.  I don't know what happened but that deer dropped like it was a spine shot and didn't move.  It's legs were locked up straight.  I have no idea why it reacted like that.  It took a follow up shot to finish it off.  That's the only time one has ever dropped that wasn't from a spine shot.   
Title: Re: Deer death
Post by: osage outlaw on October 13, 2017, 12:31:47 pm
I don't believe so DC.  The first doe I shot had no clue I was there and my bow set up is very quiet.  Even a deer that is shot through the heart or lungs with a gun will take off and run a distance before going down.  There is no way they heard that bullet coming.
Title: Re: Deer death
Post by: bjrogg on October 13, 2017, 12:52:14 pm
I think it's like Ed said, they don't know there dead. Their flight instincts take over until their body can't go anymore. Much like a chicken with no head.
Bjrogg
Title: Re: Deer death
Post by: DC on October 13, 2017, 02:19:57 pm
Thanks guys. I'm not a hunter so I have no way of answering these questions myself. It just seemed odd that some run and some drop dead. I'm thinking the "drop dead" are pretty rare.
Title: Re: Deer death
Post by: BowEd on October 13, 2017, 02:33:00 pm
DC....I should have been more explicit.Just because the shot is dead silent does'nt always mean they just walk away.Most will be startled by the arrow contacting if they are relaxed.Some won't.I just gave a for instance episode,and I don't quite see the comparison of a noisey gun compared to a bow really though.I shot a buck once with a self bow that was lopeing past me in the stand and he bolted hard for 50' and stopped.Then walked away slowly and fell over.Spined a doe that dropped in it's tracks too.There's all kinds of scenarios out there.I've shot dozens with a muzzle loader before taking up the self bow challenge.Noone that I know of can predict whether a deer flees hard or slow.
All in all if hit in the vitals correctly they only have so long to live and in some cases hard flight might even hurry up the process like BJ said.Trick is to get a good blood trail to follow in thick cover and that'll happen if hit correctly,and a humanitarion end to a successful hunt.
Title: Re: Deer death
Post by: bradsmith2010 on October 13, 2017, 03:04:03 pm
dont think there is a way to predict,,
I once saw a hunteer shoot a bull elk with rifle, and it didnt even flinch,, i thought he missed,,  but then fell over dead,,
all the deer except spine shot ,,,ran at least a little,,from my experience,, some would stop,,,and others would run till out of gas,,
Title: Re: Deer death
Post by: Danzn Bar on October 13, 2017, 06:37:54 pm
Every and  I do mean every bow kill has been different for me.  I See no pattern except if after the shot the deer see you it could run for a mile or more.  I preach you must be as quite after the shot as you are before o
Title: Re: Deer death
Post by: mullet on October 13, 2017, 07:50:38 pm
I've only killed one deer with a bow but several with a rifle and muzzleloader. The only one's I ever shot with a rifle and dropped where they were standing were the one's I hit with a .300WinMag.  i've shot others with 30.06, muzzleloaders and shotguns that ran a long way whether shot through the heart, lungs or liver. The only deer I shot with a bow ran 70 yards after being shot through the liver and one lung and a complete pass through.It ran straight down the logging road spraying out of both sides.

I have killed a lot of hogs with a bow and the only one that fell on the spot with legs in the air was one I hit over the left eye with a stone point and it traveled down into the neck, instant dead.
Title: Re: Deer death
Post by: osage outlaw on October 13, 2017, 09:48:19 pm
I did have one deer almost drop instantly from an arrow in the heart.  It didn't actually hit the heart but it sliced both main arteries going into it.  It disconnected the heart from the rest of the system completely.  That buck didn't make it 10 yards. 
Title: Re: Deer death
Post by: RAU on October 13, 2017, 10:16:56 pm
Clint I shot a buck with compound in late 90s high in shoulder and it too dropped like a rock and needed a second arrow just like yours. Acted just like a spine hit, no idea why. Every other arrow killed deer of mine besides a handful of spine shots has travelled I would say average of 75 yards maybe a little less. Most rifle kills of mine that don't hit the shoulders have run a fair distance too. The only way to consistently anchor deer where they stand, not including brain/spine hits, in my experience,  is to smash the shoulders with a rifle (you lose a lot of stew/burger that way tho)
Title: Re: Deer death
Post by: JW_Halverson on October 14, 2017, 02:37:08 pm
This may be anthropomorphizing greatly, but I am reminded of a story a friend's WWII vet father used to relate every once in a while when he was trying to illustrate how we kids needed to toughen up.  He went all through basic and deployed to the European theatre with the same bunch of guys. He says there was one fellow that shirked every detail, cut corners everywhere, but was a mean son-of-a-biscuit.  Another guy was jovial, everybody's best buddy, but just couldn't help but react poorly whenever things got tough.  In one particular bad stretch of battle the slacker s-o-b had a leg blown off, handed off his grenades and ammo to his buddies, and used his belt as a tourniquet. He was left behind.  They picked him up two days later. He had managed to mop up two enemy with nothing more than his knife.  The happy-go-lucky guy took a bullet in the shoulder and promptly died. 

Hard to say whether deer have differing philosophies or reactions to adversity as humans do. But I know dogs sure as heck do!

I have always wanted a decent study done on deer being hit with an arrow when unaware of the shooter, versus those hit when aware, versus those hit when aware and on elevated alert.  Of the three, I would much rather stick a deer with it'd head down munching browse while it is humming a happy little tune to itself about how it is a wunnerful day to be alive!  Personally, my shortest trail was under twenty yards from where he was hit, and it was on a buck in rut that knew exactly where I was, what I was doing, and that I had been the one to deal the death blow to his boiler room.  But he was also in with a bunch of does that were not alarmed and here at the peak of estrus.  He died trying to get a leg up on one of them!  He went out working on his favorite part of the year!
Title: Re: Deer death
Post by: BowEd on October 14, 2017, 05:46:47 pm
It could be the shock impact of hitting bone alarms deer as opposed to going through just flesh that makes them run harder in the beginning.Excluding head shots of course.Both terminal if in the vitals but different reactions to it.
Title: Re: Deer death
Post by: sleek on October 14, 2017, 10:06:21 pm
My only bow kill was difficult to say the least.  It was a deep angle, went through the stomach first, then the diaphragm, took the corner off a lung, missed the heart and center pumched the other lung and exited the other side. Blood all ove the impact site. I tracked it about 300 yards hands and knees through all kinds of brush, hills, tall dead grass that has purple spots all over when it dies... i found half my arrow 50 yards in, then the other half about another 50. I suspect she was pushed perhaps by yotes.
Title: Re: Deer death
Post by: BowEd on October 15, 2017, 07:19:35 am
That's a good job trailing sleek.Proud of ya.
After over 50 years of hunting I don't think there's any predictable reason why deer run farther one time then another.
Like everything else in this world you prepare for the worst and hope for the best.
Title: Re: Deer death
Post by: BowEd on October 17, 2017, 10:28:19 am
Many times here there are deer/turkeys/coon all eating together at the bird feeder here in the dead of the winter on a sunny abnormal warmer day for the coon to be there.Good entertainment!!!
I will say I've had more bucks generally walk away from being shot then does though.Could be they are in a different state of mind I don't quite know.
Title: Re: Deer death
Post by: vinemaplebows on October 22, 2017, 03:28:37 pm
I had one doe stare at me as I put a arrow through her heart face on, she never moved even after the shot, and fell on her face. That is the strangest reaction I have ever personally seen. Sometimes I think the arrows are so sharp that there is a delayed reaction to the brain, especially if they think they are safe.

I was tracking a deer for my brother, who had a arrow on his string in case the animal was still alive. The weather was really cold with lots of rain, we were cold to the bone....anyhow at some point my hand was cut by my brothers arrow head, and half the blood we were tracking was mine, I had no idea of the cut, no pain, nothing. The cold numbed the pain to the point of no feeling.
Title: Re: Deer death
Post by: GlisGlis on October 23, 2017, 08:49:30 am
Quote
Sometimes I think the arrows are so sharp...

I'm not shure it's related to sharpness
I had an accident with a chainsaw and reported some nice deep wounds on left arm
I was also so lucky not to cut away any essential parts
As I stared at that bloody gash asking why I feeled almost no pain.
I tough I had severed some nerves but that proved to be false so there are major wounds that cause small or no pain
Probably if the animal feels relative safe certain wounds are not a reason to flee
Title: Re: Deer death
Post by: BowEd on October 23, 2017, 11:02:14 am
I know organs inside people don't seem to have nerves like from a needle puncturing them for a test or something.At least I've been told that too.
Title: Re: Deer death
Post by: bradsmith2010 on October 23, 2017, 11:20:51 am
yes I tell my wife it doesnt hurt the deer when I shoot them,, she just looks at me funny,,, )P(
Title: Re: Deer death
Post by: Strelets on October 23, 2017, 12:10:38 pm
Certainly the heart and the arteries have no nerves. Last year I had an angiogram; they stuck a needle and tube into my femoral artery in the groin, worked it up through the arteries into my heart and injected dye into it. I was wide awake with only a local anaesthetic where the tube went in. I didn't feel a thing except for an ache in the groin.
Title: Re: Deer death
Post by: BowEd on October 23, 2017, 02:25:50 pm
Strelets...true enough.
yes I tell my wife it doesnt hurt the deer when I shoot them,, she just looks at me funny,,, )P(
That's a good one Brad.Robin tells me to just not shoot a baby one. )P(
Title: Re: Deer death
Post by: Hawkdancer on October 24, 2017, 11:08:15 pm
I think the running is more apt to happen regardless of weapon.  Rifle/muzzleloader bully/ball are are Mach 1.5/2+ and they still run even with a heart/lung shot.  I had one hit with my .58 cal. with round ball in a rib going in, decimated heart and lungs, still went 75 yards.  Had another run up hill almost 100 yards after a standing heart shot.  Haven't had a bow kill yet.
Hawkdancer
Title: Re: Deer death
Post by: JW_Halverson on October 27, 2017, 05:11:16 pm
I think the running is more apt to happen regardless of weapon.  Rifle/muzzleloader bully/ball are are Mach 1.5/2+ and they still run even with a heart/lung shot.  I had one hit with my .58 cal. with round ball in a rib going in, decimated heart and lungs, still went 75 yards.  Had another run up hill almost 100 yards after a standing heart shot.  Haven't had a bow kill yet.
Hawkdancer

I have a buddy that I turned into a flintlock shooter after he turned me into a bowyer. Turnabout was fair play, I think.

His deer shot with his .54 have always run.  He double lunged a buck once and he recovered it nearly half a mile away.  I tend to see mine go down at 20-40 yds.  Neither of us is a "hot loader", he shoots 85 grains in his .54, I load with 70 in my .50 cal.
Title: Re: Deer death
Post by: BowEd on October 28, 2017, 09:47:37 am
Yes JW I've had a jonathon browning .54 hawken since 1980 and shot dozens of deer with it.Black walnut stock/brass and iron furniture.I put a 35" badger barrel on it instead of the 30" barrel that came with the gun.10/1000ths deep rifling.Slow twist of 66".Meant for round ball shooting.Still have it.Put a finer blade front site on it too.Very accurate.All round ball[.52 cal. with a .10 thick pillow tick patch/I think 280 grain weight] loads many times with only 60 grains of black powder at ranges under 50 yards and a bit more powder past that range.I keep paper patch quick loads I make with me of different grain loads.I can truly actually say every deer I hit with it died.Usually always going down somewhere's between 50 to 100 yards.Depending on whether a good shoulder hit happened they went down earlier.It is my only go to big game rifle.
Is'nt much different with a good sharp broadhead as far as distance deer go after being shot most times.I'll say this though bow hunting at close range is more work but more exciting if the deer are around.
Like I've read said.Dead is dead at 20 yards or 200 yards.
Title: Re: Deer dgeath
Post by: Will Tell on October 28, 2017, 11:53:43 am
I've had a few drop in their tracks, two with rifle slugs out of a 12 gauge shotgun and one spine shot buck the spine shot put him down but he was far from dead. I had to shoot him again. Both 12 gauge shots were in the shoulder.
Title: Re: Deer death
Post by: Swamp Thang on November 15, 2017, 06:02:22 pm
I lucked out had an unusual spike run past me about 6 feet away I shot him on the run he cut a flip and dropped.
Title: Re: Deer death
Post by: sleek on November 15, 2017, 06:06:31 pm
Neck shots are best imo. With a rifle of course. The trama will take it out quick, leave the heart to pump out the blood for you, no need to drain it, and you dont loose much meat. And if you miss, its a clean miss almost guarunteed. A good expanding bullet to almost 90 percent of the neck is a nock down shot.
Title: Re: Deer death
Post by: osage outlaw on November 15, 2017, 07:48:15 pm
I found a really nice 8 point dead that had a bullet wound to the neck. 
Title: Re: Deer death
Post by: sleek on November 15, 2017, 07:55:36 pm
I found a really nice 8 point dead that had a bullet wound to the neck.


100% effective  most of the time :D
Title: Re: Deer death
Post by: BowEd on November 18, 2017, 11:02:37 am
Swamp thing....Cool!!I had that happen to me shooting a good sized button buck once.Does were on the other side of me in the stand and the button buck was on the other side a distance of 50 yards or so.I used my doe bleat and he came running by on a lope right by my stand.Nailed him with a passed through dogwood at less then 5 yards.He did'nt go very far.Not a trophy or anything but it was exciting.
Not in the neck though.In the vitals.
Title: Re: Deer death
Post by: Pat B on November 18, 2017, 12:01:06 pm
The most effective shot placement is in the boiler room, heart/lung area from slightly quartering away to straight on from the side. In my opinion the neck isn't a very good area UNLESS you hit an artery. If you just hit muscle the deer can live out his life with an arrow sticking through his neck.   >:(
Title: Re: Deer death
Post by: Strelets on November 18, 2017, 12:41:40 pm
Here's one hunter who went for neck shots, illustrated about 1340. Medieval arrowheads could be very wide, up to about 3" across the barbs, which would increase the chances of hitting an artery.

Howard Hill used to hunt from horseback, has anyone tried it in more recent times? I used to ride in the New Forest in England, and noticed that deer and other animals often showed little fear of someone on horseback.
Title: Re: Deer death
Post by: Pat B on November 18, 2017, 03:00:07 pm
I had a friend in South Carolina that hunted from horseback with a 30-30. He said he could ride right up on deer if the wind was in his favor.
Title: Re: Deer death
Post by: BowEd on November 18, 2017, 03:49:48 pm
Some Iowa boys do that on a tractor or a combine too......lol.
Title: Re: Deer death
Post by: sleek on November 18, 2017, 05:48:45 pm
To be clear, neck shots are best with a good expanding rifle bullet. Id not attempt one with an arrow unless im dying of hunger.
Title: Re: Deer death
Post by: Pat B on November 18, 2017, 07:51:15 pm
A high shoulder shot will usually drop them in their tracks.
Title: Re: Deer death
Post by: PEARL DRUMS on November 19, 2017, 06:46:34 am
Neck wounds are what we found most often, second goes to leg wounds, when we processed hundreds of deer every fall at dads shop. Your target is about a 1.25" round spinal column, artery's are a total crap shoot and the rest all solid meat. Hit one in the throat and good luck killing it. In my opinion, you couldn't take a worse shot and I don't care what trigger you are pulling or string you are dropping.

If you want the best red meat you can make. Leave as much blood within muscle as possible and drop the animal ASAP to do so. Bleeding out is for white meat.
Title: Re: Deer death
Post by: PEARL DRUMS on November 19, 2017, 06:51:57 am
Having a chance to look over literally thousands of deer and hear thousands of deer stories was a great opportunity for me to learn what kills deer outside of my own field experience. From rifles, shotguns, muzzleloaders, cars, trucks, pistols, bolts and arrows. I seen and heard it all. Every fall we would line up slugs, bullets and broad heads on a wall perlin. Few of which actually killed the animal, but were still in it.

Moral of the story, shoot them in lungs/heart or don't shoot.
Title: Re: Deer death
Post by: sleek on November 19, 2017, 07:19:15 am
Having a chance to look over literally thousands of deer and hear thousands of deer stories was a great opportunity for me to learn what kills deer outside of my own field experience. From rifles, shotguns, muzzleloaders, cars, trucks, pistols, bolts and arrows. I seen and heard it all. Every fall we would line up slugs, bullets and broad heads on a wall perlin. Few of which actually killed the animal, but were still in it.

Moral of the story, shoot them in lungs/heart or don't shoot.

Well, i sit corrected ... I guess this is one of those moments where you learn your old man taught you wrong.
Title: Re: Deer death
Post by: bjrogg on November 19, 2017, 11:17:50 am
Some Iowa boys do that on a tractor or a combine too......lol.
That may have happened around here years ago, but when a few guys lost their combine I think that pretty well put a end to it around here. Our CO has become very serious and he doesn't give anyone any breaks. A person could buy some very nice hunting trips for the cost of a combine. It's going to be hard to keep the coyotes population in check. They are really hard to keep in a section without guy's watching the road. If I have to watch road I just park a stand somewhere. If I can't stop the coyotes from there they are going to cross the road. We have had a lot of guys get tickets just for having a gun with shells in the tube leaning against a vehicle.
Bjrogg
PS I just have to agree with Pearl. Put whatever your shooting in the broiler room.
Title: Re: Deer death
Post by: BowEd on November 19, 2017, 12:57:19 pm
bjrogg...I gotta agree it's not a very efficient way to farm unless a passenger is along.The operator needs to keep running his machine and getting the harvest out.Priorities win the day there.
Title: Re: Deer death
Post by: PEARL DRUMS on November 20, 2017, 06:08:40 am
Having a chance to look over literally thousands of deer and hear thousands of deer stories was a great opportunity for me to learn what kills deer outside of my own field experience. From rifles, shotguns, muzzleloaders, cars, trucks, pistols, bolts and arrows. I seen and heard it all. Every fall we would line up slugs, bullets and broad heads on a wall perlin. Few of which actually killed the animal, but were still in it.

Moral of the story, shoot them in lungs/heart or don't shoot.

Well, i sit corrected ... I guess this is one of those moments where you learn your old man taught you wrong.

My dad told me the same thing sleek. It is a generational thing.  I never tried it because I knew from 14 years old on it wasn't a good shot.
Title: Re: Deer death
Post by: BowEd on November 20, 2017, 06:44:30 am
I recall back in 1984 I went to Attikokan Ontario to bear hunt with my .54 muzzle loader.Took a neck shot at a big blackie 25' above him from a pine tree.Knocked him out!!!!After smoke cleared he laid there dead still.Thought that was very odd too.Turns out I just grazed him along his neck and eventually he regained conscience and took off.
Should of took the vital shot right through the shoulder blades.That would of stopped him altogether forever.
Title: Re: Deer death
Post by: Pappy on November 23, 2017, 08:11:23 am
I am a behind the shoulder guy, haven't gun hunted in years but when and if I ever do again it will be behind the shoulder 4 or 5 inches down from the back and 3 or 4 inches up from the brisket, middle of the ribs, they can't live with out heart or lungs. Same with a bow for me. ;) And of course I like the bigger target area,not the greatest with either. ;) :) :)
 Pappy