Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => English Warbow => Topic started by: FilipT on October 16, 2017, 11:13:34 am
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My hazel longbow is ready for tillering. It will be 70" nock to nock, 72" tip to tip and I expect to have proper 30" draw length out of it; 32" is probably overkill as everybody underdraws it. It will not be a warbow, because it will be maybe 90# maximum.
I will post pictures as I go but for now I have some questions which I must resolve before I put it on the tiller.
1. String doesn't go through the center. I suspect roughed out bow blank didn't lose enough moisture before I removed the clamps so it bent a little sideways. I measured that one tip would need to move 1" to the side in order for string to go directly through center, or I could bend sideways both tips under 1" to get same result.
Should I use heat gun to correct this? Never used dry heat before and I thought I would try that now, and later use heat gun for heat treating.
2. Could I attempt to make side nocks without horn on it? I read about them and like the idea but I don't know how to make them.
3. How much poundage heat treating adds? I don't want to get over 100# bow and even now is a bit over sized for a 90#. Don't want to remove too much wood!
Tnx for help. :BB
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It'll be interesting to see how you go. 30" from 70" is asking a fair bit of the wood... And self side nocks at <90lbs is asking a lot too, I'd have thought...
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Dry heat works well on hazel, tempering can add a lot of weight but it also adds speed to the cast. I'm sure hazel will be fine with side nocks. Did you check out the hazel warbow Del built?
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Yes I did, but I don't remember if his was longer ntn than mine. From look they seem pretty much similar. But here is twist, I can barely move limbs a little, so I cannot floor tiller. Also during the shaping it felt like I was shaping hazel. So I think this is some heavy hazel and I may have done it by accident too powerful.
I must obtain heat gun first so I can start the tillering. I will keep you all posted.
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... I can barely move limbs a little, so I cannot floor tiller. ...
That's the whole problem with Warbows...
Don't assume it's too powerful... it prob' isn't.
Get as short a string as pos' on it and see how it bends.
Del
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I read that before and I will try to put the string as soon as I establish good enough bend at brace height.
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If you do that it will already be too weak. If you have plotted good tapers then you must trust them and put a string and pulley on it and use that to get it to brace
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Actually I even used calipers to check the initial taper! That is a little engineer in my doing haha. So your idea is immediately brace height? I have never done that before and honestly I am a bit afraid.
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Yup.. it's always scary but if you pull to full target weight on a "just long enough to get it on" string, that is less stress than full weight at brace, so it won't hurt the bow (IF the tiller is ok.... you stop short if you spot a problem with the tiller).
If you don't pull full weigh you just end up with an under weight bow...
You get a lot of people trying for 100# but only pulling to 40#.... then they are surprised when they end up with a 40# bow ::)
Del
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So the method is using the shortest string as possible ("just long enough to get it on"), pulling it to intended weight, checking the tiller, bracing it and then going to the full draw? Or I got something wrong?
Is that because of what you said in your yew warbow youtube series, that when you get to brace, bow is already "finished"?
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Yeah, that's about right, by the time it braced you don't have much spare draw weight or draw left to play with.
It is simply so hard to get a warbow braced you need to get the tiller as good as possible as early as possible.
Del
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Has anyone checked their warbows during tillering with Badger's mass calculator? I frequently use it for other bows and it works great and I think it probably works for warbows too.
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Not me, just not my thing.
Old English saying "you don't fatten a pig by weighing it" ;)
Del
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Not me, just not my thing.
Old English saying "you don't fatten a pig by weighing it" ;)
Del
I do religiously on ELBs, war bows or anything over 100# tend to do better coming in a bit lighter than suggested. I was working on an 85# bow today, with the tiller I was planning on using the suggested mass was 23 oz. The mass was dropping as I tillered so I lowered my target to 70#, bow came out beautiful at 20 oz. I am almost always working with different woods and different weights and the mass program is pretty good at letting me know how my design is working out and what I can expect. It also helps me get it right sometimes on the second attempt. If I start off too narrow I just have to go with what I have but if I start off too wide I can always narrow it as I go.
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"I do religiously on ELBs, war bows or anything over 100#"
@ Badger... I'd just like to point out we aren't supposed to talk about religion on here ;)
Del >:D
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Slightly related topic for which I don't want open new thread.
Could arrows be made from wooden dowels you can see in stores? I read discussions about them and opinions vary. People say only if the grain runs along the length of the dowel, which makes sense. But then again, when you taper them or make them barreled, grain always ends tapered.
So, yes or no? These are the cheapest solution I could get in order to have warbow arrows.
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Slightly related topic for which I don't want open new thread.
Could arrows be made from wooden dowels you can see in stores? I read discussions about them and opinions vary. People say only if the grain runs along the length of the dowel, which makes sense. But then again, when you taper them or make them barreled, grain always ends tapered.
So, yes or no? These are the cheapest solution I could get in order to have warbow arrows.
Sure you can. Just make sure at least couple of rings go fully end to end. It might be hard to estimate the spine of dowels in store, but it would be best to have at least 12mm of thickness from where to work down.
Not me, just not my thing.
Old English saying "you don't fatten a pig by weighing it" ;)
Del
I do religiously on ELBs, war bows or anything over 100# tend to do better coming in a bit lighter than suggested. I was working on an 85# bow today, with the tiller I was planning on using the suggested mass was 23 oz. The mass was dropping as I tillered so I lowered my target to 70#, bow came out beautiful at 20 oz. I am almost always working with different woods and different weights and the mass program is pretty good at letting me know how my design is working out and what I can expect. It also helps me get it right sometimes on the second attempt. If I start off too narrow I just have to go with what I have but if I start off too wide I can always narrow it as I go.
I agree, the mass princible is a nice tool to see where you are going. I think it suits the most a beginner, but also advanced. I tend to get some confidence from it, when im having the first 100lb+ pulls in the tiller tree, closing my eyes and waiting for the bang. :laugh: I got 2 staves roughed which are 40 oz in weight and plenty wide, so only the sky is a limit!
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I would also make a spine tester so I could know what I am working with. Funnily, the mass calculator says that this hazel bow should produce 140#! It is 1010 grams now, but I doubt it is really that strong as I could bend limbs a little by floor tillering and you probably can't do that with high poundage bows.
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+1 for spine tester. The mass calculator is quite exact, it's just you apparently have a too wide profile. My friend has a 110 pound hickory bow, which weights like 160 pound bow. :D Its 40mm+ wide, even though the bow could be 30-35mm wide...
This is because adding thickness, is way more weight-efficient, than adding width. Mass principle makes you drive for more efficient, but still safe bow!
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Makes sense, as bow is 40 mm wide. I went for that width because hazel needs to be a bit wider. I won't narrow it down as I like overall proportions.
How is hickory when made into warbow? Does it have handshock and is physically heavy or your friend has a flatbow of that poundage?
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I don't personally believe in "handshock-woods". You can make a longbow from maple as from ipe. Just make sure the profile is ok (flat belly, round belly etc). The hickory longbow i mentioned, is just a bit wider longbow, with square profile. I have understood that you can make quite heavy warbows from hickory and keep them in decent width even at high poundage. Like with every wood, make sure you make the tips moderately skinny, so you don't think some wood is "handshocky" ;). Sure it might be sometimes hard with extra hard woods like ipe/osage/syringa etc.
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Years ago I took a dislike for longbows becuase the handshock was so bad. It was the way i was building them. I never get any handshock anymore even shooting very light arrows out of them. Another thing is that regardless of the density of the wood same draw weight bows should weigh about the same. I am working today on a hickory backed cherry 72" long by 50#@28, I just finished boo backed ipe same length and draw weight but they are vastly different in width and thickness yet identical in physical weight.
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Yes there are no handshocky woods just excuses for poor work by the bowyer ;)
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I was in the store today and inspected the dowels I talked about above. They have really good grain, there are at least 10 usable dowels. They are made of beech, probably european.
Is that good arrow wood choice?
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I haven't tried, but sure why not. Many woods make arrows, its just that some woods are a) easier to obtain b) easier to work c) more durable. So as long as they are straight and don't break on first hit, have fun!
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They shouldn't break if I look at the one with the best grain. But as warbow arrows can be torpedo shaped, tapered or barreled, grain always will run off. Will S knows a lot about that. Anyway, I'll try to find the best there is, but first I must see what about feathers and arrow heads.
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I read a lot about spining the warbow arrows and it seems to all point that spining them doesn't matter as same as spining the bows with weights such as #50 for example. Does that make any sense?
The thing is I don't see any plans for spine tester for arrows over 28" of length. Arrows of 28" of shaft length are commonly used for 28" draw and a bit lower than that. Plans state that you must suspend weight at the middle and the distance between points on which arrow is suspended is 26".
But for bow that draws up to 30", you will need longer arrows. Does that mean that you need to suspend arrows on points that are 28" apart? Notice that for 28" arrows, suspension is 26", so 2" less. I used same logic for 30" arrows.
I don't know what to do...
P.S.
I see couple of times mentioned on other forums that guys suspended warbow arrows on usual spine testers and spines all come out wrong.
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@ FilipT
For a spine tester the distance between the supports doesn't matter too much because you divide the distance by the deflection.
So if you have the supports at a longer distance you get more deflection so it cancels out.
E.G Say 28" and 0.5" deflection gives 28/0.5 = 56
The same arrow at 26" between supports would give 0.464" deflection and thus gives 26/0.464 = 56
This shows that the further apart the supports the more accurate the reading.... but basically it doesn't matter as long as you remain consistent for any particular set of arrows.
So for warbow arrows you might decide to use supports 30" apart, but for flight arrows maybe 23" apart.
Del
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That sounds a bit tricky as I don't know how I would modify support distance when I want. I made today everything except supports. The interesting thing is that I read the following in one of the plans:
The spine tester assumes your arrow is 28" long. The shorter the arrow is, the higher the effective spine, and the longer, the lower. The thumb rule is 5# for every 1". So, if your dynamic spine is 50#, and your arrow is 29" long, your effective spine (accounting only for arrow length) is 45#. If your arrow is 27" long, your effective spine is 55#.
According to this I could make the supports 26" apart and use it for 28,29,30,31, etc. inch arrows except I would add or subtract 5# on measured deflection. Would that make sense instead of making adjustable support spine tester (which I never seen anywhere)?
Also do you use spine testing before putting fletchings and point on or when you have bare shaft of wood?
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Filip
testing is for static spine, or beam deflection. just a reference point to get you started. you can test anywhere along an arrow or an arrow of any length.
The shorter the arrow is, the higher the effective spine, and the longer, the lower. The thumb rule is 5# for every 1". So, if your dynamic spine is 50#, and your arrow is 29" long, your effective spine (accounting only for arrow length) is 45#. If your arrow is 27" long, your effective spine is 55#.
the info in quotes is about dynamic spine, or how the arrow is supposed to act when you start shooting it.
google "stu's dynamic spine calculator" for an excel application.
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I downloaded the calculator, read instructions a couple of times and played with it. Really interesting tool and easy to use if you have bought already assembled modern arrows but needs to be calibrated if you make wooden arrows yourself. From what I see, two black boxes should match as closely as possible and they will have number very close to poundage of your bow.
I finished my spine tester and now the new project is arrow tapering jig.
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For what it's worth, my advice is to ignore spine testers and also tapering jigs.
They're fine if you're buying arrow shafts that have been selected by weight or rough spine already, but if you're using dowels from hardware shops or better still cutting your own timber and turning them into shafts you should be tapering the arrows differently depending on their weight. If you run them all through the same jig you'll end up with a load of different weights due to the natural variances of the timber you're using. You also would need to make different jigs for every different species of wood which is daft.
Forget spine as well for now, because the simplest method is to finish a large set of arrows without spining, shoot them into a target and group them by where they hit. Get a feel for each group's spine by simply flexing them in your hands and after a bit of practice you'll be able to spine future shafts based on what you learn. It's so unimportant if you're not shooting for competition scoring, and all you really need to know is whether the arrow is safe for the bow you're using.
Beech is fine by the way, it's mentioned by Ascham in Toxophilus and works nicely out of pretty much any weight bow. You'll have to experiment with different tapers to suit the stuff you get, but my initial advice would be to go for a 3/8" size and taper the last 8 or 10 inches down to about 11/32 for a 70-90lb bow.
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What about 10 mm diameter all way parallel from beech? Too strong? I thought of doing tapering jig so I can make in future torpedo shaped ones, for stronger bows. I read that definition of torpedo is last 1/3 of the arrow tapered.
EWBS lists livery arrow as being suitable for bobtail or torpedo shape with nocks being 3/8" in diameter and near arrowhead being 1/2" in diameter. I would like to try make these type of arrows.
Btw, I thought of jig as a tool which can be modified for different tapers. I have some ideas for it. It would not be large, since it would taper only that last third of an arrow.
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Tapering the last 1/3 is fine, but you will want to extend that sometimes. It's not very common to only taper the final 1/3, the more common method is to taper the entire shaft from head to nock. It's not actually historically correct, but then neither is tapering the last 1/3...
My point really was that every arrow should be tapered differently according to it's weight, spine and what you're using it for. It's up to you though - to be honest, most people just taper from head to nock on every single arrow.
Beech will be fine at 10mm parallel, but will shoot better with a rear taper.
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How do you usually do your taperings? Do you have jig or you hold arrow and drill in one hand and sand paper in other? I thought of that as an alternative solution.
So, you actually do the spine testing on parallel shafts and then you proceed to tapering the arrows? How do you determine how much taper do you need according to spine?
P.S. What is historically correct profile of medieval warbow arrow? Barreled?
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They used all sorts of profiles in order to make each shaft as good as possible. Some are parallel, some are bobtailed (this isn't a straight taper but more like the shape of a trumpet) some are barrelled, saddled, chested etc etc. There is no one "medieval" arrow shape.
I do mine with a knife or block plane if I'm turning the shafts by hand the traditional way, or a small belt sander if I'm doing them quickly. My method with hardware shop dowels is to flex them to get a rough idea, weigh them and group them and then taper them depending on the individual weight and rough spine. If a shaft is very dense and stiff I'll bobtail them, if it's quite whippy and light I'll keep them full width as long as possible.
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My method with hardware shop dowels is to flex them to get a rough idea, weigh them and group them and then taper them depending on the individual weight and rough spine. If a shaft is very dense and stiff I'll bobtail them, if it's quite whippy and light I'll keep them full width as long as possible.
I will do as you described, although I will use my spine tester as I don't know the feel of spine by hand. Tomorrow I am hopefully buying heat gun and can finally correct the bow.
Would you say that 40 mm of reflex is too excessive? That is what happened with bow, together with going to the side. It lost very little moisture in last few weeks but it still got deformed. Can't say I am happy about it.
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Where do you guys get feathers for your arrows? I looked at ebay, put the filter for the free international shipping and got a lot of results.
Would this type of feathers suffice, I mean could I make fletchings from them?
Here are goose feathers:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/50pcs-Beautiful-natural-goose-feathers-6-8-inches-15-20-cm-color-black/311990653681?hash=item48a41792f1:g:FuoAAOSwm9tZ2oiT (https://www.ebay.com/itm/50pcs-Beautiful-natural-goose-feathers-6-8-inches-15-20-cm-color-black/311990653681?hash=item48a41792f1:g:FuoAAOSwm9tZ2oiT)
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Wholesale-20-1000pcs-Natural-goose-feather-15-20cm-6-8inches-24-Colors/112312038670?hash=item1a2651b50e:m:mPYFxNSsHmFi1CNPkr5PjBg (https://www.ebay.com/itm/Wholesale-20-1000pcs-Natural-goose-feather-15-20cm-6-8inches-24-Colors/112312038670?hash=item1a2651b50e:m:mPYFxNSsHmFi1CNPkr5PjBg)
https://www.ebay.com/itm/500-pcs-natural-goose-Feather-15-20cm-6-8-inches-Various-Colours/172913648829?hash=item284274e4bd:m:mkKwBaUaCOBCTVHeGz6b0ZA (https://www.ebay.com/itm/500-pcs-natural-goose-Feather-15-20cm-6-8-inches-Various-Colours/172913648829?hash=item284274e4bd:m:mkKwBaUaCOBCTVHeGz6b0ZA)
Turkey feathers
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Wholesale-5-100-PCS-high-quality-25-30cm-10-12-Turkey-feather/112319760792?hash=item1a26c78998:m:mBPLC80SupH8RFl_pM48NpQ (https://www.ebay.com/itm/Wholesale-5-100-PCS-high-quality-25-30cm-10-12-Turkey-feather/112319760792?hash=item1a26c78998:m:mBPLC80SupH8RFl_pM48NpQ)
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Wholesale-10-100pcs-precious-wild-turkey-tail-feathers-4-12inches-10-30cm/252730898963?hash=item3ad7ef7a13:m:msTJe7nkGe6iSCvKaz3ZyJg (https://www.ebay.com/itm/Wholesale-10-100pcs-precious-wild-turkey-tail-feathers-4-12inches-10-30cm/252730898963?hash=item3ad7ef7a13:m:msTJe7nkGe6iSCvKaz3ZyJg)
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Look for 25-30cm feathers, those are way too short. I've bought quite a lot of cheap goose feathers from ebay, 18€/100pcs or so with free international shipping.
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Ah, 10" at least? Look at the turkey ones, they seem to be best suited and look nice. I don't care if they were not used in medieval europe as turkeys weren't imported yet.
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Why best suited, when goose was used? I don't know was it allowed to link here those... Anyway, you can find 25-30cm goose or turkey there. I would prefer goose. Some of them are colored all funky, but you can pick the white one.
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I can't seem to find goose feathers over 5" in length, that is why.
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Search "goose feathers 25-30".
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Ah thank you, now I found them. Before I put "goose feathers 10 inch" or "goose feathers 25 cm" and didn't get the wanted results, weird.
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I get my goose and swan feathers for free, as I just pick them up every breeding season. Waterbirds drop their flight feathers at the same time as building nests, so I can usually get around 300 - 500 over a couple of weeks.
If you get geese nesting in your country I wouldn't bother paying somebody else to pick them up
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Slightly related topic for which I don't want open new thread.
Mmh, pretty confusing to have two completely different topics in the same thread... I was hoping to see the hazel bow, finally ;-)
This said, I don't bother too much about matching theoretical spine to a bow's poundage. What matters, IMO, is the acceleration an arrow experiences when it is launched. A 50# bow shooting an arrow at 150 fps will need a much lower spine than if it shoots the same arrow at 200 fps.
The general rule (500 spine for a 50# bow) likely comes from the fact that most normal (hunting) bows will shoot about the same speed (160-170 fps at 10 gpp), and shoot a certain grain per poundage arrows. In primitive bows, we tend to use 10 gpp as a standard for comparison, gf folks often use 9 gpp, and wheelies use 5 gpp...
You gotta find out what spine (or particular arrow) shoots best for each particular bow.
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I live in Croatia, there are no wild geese here. Nobody I know deals with poultry so I cannot get domestic geese and turkey, so the ebay. Same thing is with horns.
I bought heat gun today and tomorrow is judgement day. Either I will correct the string alignment and reflex or it will break.
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I managed to heat three areas on bow and correct it as far as I could. Also I removed slight twist from one limb. Now the offset from center is 6,5 mm which I think is manageable and will not rotate bow in my hand (or will it?). I couldn't get it more corrected as this bow had really resisted movement even when heated thoroughly. Below are before and after pictures. Red line represents string alignment.
BEFORE CORRECTION
(https://image.ibb.co/ksXHaw/prije.jpg) (https://ibb.co/fVBX8G)
AFTER CORRECTION
(https://image.ibb.co/fkRM2b/poslije.jpg) (https://ibb.co/dDrohb)
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Good, good. I'm following this.
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Del,
I thought bow making is a religion! It is certainly addictive! And I am barely started! :BB
Hawkdancer
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I cut the nocks but because of additional work around the house I cannot proceed to tillering for at least 2 days.
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I started tillering today. It was a big job, limbs barely moved for couple of inches. The biggest deal breaker is 40 mm of reflex. I cannot correct that. Also my tillering string stretches as even though I have string material (spectra fishing braid), I haven't got serving material so I didn't make proper tillering string.
Any suggestions?
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I find that if the string has too much twist it stretches more, spectra or not. Maybe that's the problem. Perhaps you could pre-stretch it by leaving a really heavy weight hanging on it overnight?
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I don't even have a string made of it. My endless string jig is not finished yet and I don't have serving material. I am using currently a rope for starting engines such as those from lawn movers and chainsaws. It doesn't stretch really when you tiller a bow up to 60#.
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If you've got good string material..... why not just make a string?? Endless loop strings aren't as good as twisted strings, and you don't need to serve twisted strings.
Make up a good strong twisted string with laid-in loops and start tillering.
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I would like to make regular flemish with bowyers knot but I hear many of these materials slip, especially slick material such as fishing braid.
Also, how would you deal with 40 mm of reflex and uneven shaped limbs (one has dog leg)?
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When I have reflex in a bow and it wants to flip on the tree I use 5 min epoxy and glue a flat piece on the belly side of the handle. It helps keep it stable. Once the bow is braced you just rasp it off.
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I doesn't flip at all and I am grateful for it! But what it makes is that it gives much more resistance to bending. I must try new string and see what it will happen then.
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I made the flemish string, it looks really good for a first try. It stretched a couple of times during tillering and than it stopped. Tomorrow I will continue with tillering.
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Bow is tillered to brace and ready for string!
Managed to get tips moving evenly to brace. I put the scale on rope and when the tips got to around 5-6" of draw (which is close to brace height), scale read around 100#. Since my scale goes to the 110# I didn't continue to measure further than that as it would break.
When I put the bow on kitchen scale, its mass was 866 grams. In mass calculator bow with current parameters weighs about 842 grams for 130#.
So when I get these things into consideration, I think the bow is currently about 120-130#. Somebody (I think Del) said that when you measure draw weight using long string; what you measure at brace height, will be probably final weight when you put actual string and pull it to full draw.
Since I want bow around 90# I still got enough room for removing wood but as I have read about tillering heavy bows, I am aware that they can lose weight really quickly so I will not go furiously at scraping.
Now what I need help is that I don't know how to make stringer notch. I will simply need it as it will be impossible for me to brace this bow using usual stringer. Do I need to make just some shallow groove at the top of upper tip?
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I worked a little on the scraping the both limbs to get even bend at brace and then I attempted to put string on it. I never thought I would say this... but how to brace this bow?
I tried stringer method and I cannot do it by myself, I'll try to ask dad to help me, but then again, how can I put string in future by myself.
Tried the knee on the handle method too. Completely impossible because bow has a reflex and it cannot stay still while I push my knee against the belly.
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Yup that's the problem making warbows... if you can string it, it's probably under weight ;)
A boat/trailer hand winch is handy for initial brace. Video of warbow winch/brace here:-
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QGKt8bEa-Ig&index=3&t=37s&list=PLBz2tD9476KRkSOSICLsc-zj5ADyPKLZB (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QGKt8bEa-Ig&index=3&t=37s&list=PLBz2tD9476KRkSOSICLsc-zj5ADyPKLZB)
Some pics of my tiller winch at the end of this blog entry. Note I shortened the winch handle to make it more compact.
https://bowyersdiary.blogspot.co.uk/2013/08/copper-archer-has-bow.html (https://bowyersdiary.blogspot.co.uk/2013/08/copper-archer-has-bow.html)
Del
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I saw winches like that in store nearby but they are expensive. Anyways I know I could easily brace with them, or even pull big weights but on the other hand, when I go shoot in the nature, I don't have winches bolted to the floor to put string on my bow. That is the thing.
Is there another way? I don't consider myself weak and I am doing weight training, but this is just ridiculously hard!
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I saw winches like that in store nearby but they are expensive. Anyways I know I could easily brace with them, or even pull big weights but on the other hand, when I go shoot in the nature, I don't have winches bolted to the floor to put string on my bow. That is the thing.
Is there another way? I don't consider myself weak and I am doing weight training, but this is just ridiculously hard!
Once it's actually finished it's relatively easy to brace with a stringer, and maybe help from someone to slip the string on while you heave with two hands. It's not so much the pulling that's hard, it's the reaching across with one hand that can twist you back at an awkward angle.
But early in the process it is V difficult as the bow is still not fully tillered and is at a higher weight...
If it's not at a higher weight, there is a danger that it will end up under weight when finished.
Del
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If you make the stringer as short as possible, so it just fits on, I find it a lot easier, then stand up to bend the bow instead of pulling it up with just your arm. Just something I found, hope it helps.
R.D.
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If you make the stringer as short as possible, so it just fits on, I find it a lot easier, then stand up to bend the bow instead of pulling it up with just your arm. Just something I found, hope it helps.
R.D.
Yeah, getting that stringer length right is critical so you can use leg muscles not hurt your back.
Del
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Good idea, a stringer that I can barely put my foot into, am I right? Than I am basically doing a something akin to a deadlift. I will try tomorrow.
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That's right 8), you only need one foot on the stringer, the other foot stepped a little towards and pointing to the top nock end, like lifting a heavy suitcase. If you have the top nock end a little higher before you lift it also makes it easier to reach and slip the string loop on.
Keep your back upright and tense your stomach to avoid injury.
R.D.
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I have to ask, if you can't brace it, will you be able to pull it?
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I have to ask, if you can't brace it, will you be able to pull it?
Good question.
Obviously, in this stage not. The aim of this project is to get around 90# bow that would help me do learn technique for future heavy bows, to practice tillering of heavy bows, etc.
This bow is currently probably around 120# and in this stage is simply overkill. If it does came out to be like that near desired draw length, I will remove wood evenly to get it to desired weight.
The biggest problem is that bows could get too light very easily. I could simply just now remove evenly wood from both limbs but I don't know what I would get when I get to the final stage.
This bow for me is basically an experiment to see how these heavy bows work and how do I tiller them. For future projects I will have more knowledge than now.
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If you always pull it to full target weight and watch the draw length slowly increase as you remove wood, you can't come in too light! (well maybe the odd pound or two)
It really does need a disciplined approach if you want to hit a target weight.
This post shows what I mean. 110# Warbow from stave to full draw as a single picture showing it being pulled to 110# at each stage.
http://www.primitivearcher.com/smf/index.php/topic,61907.0.html (http://www.primitivearcher.com/smf/index.php/topic,61907.0.html)
Del
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I must buy better and stronger scale. This current is made like a dynamometer (spring inside a shaft) and measures up to 110#.
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If you want a 90# bow do as Del says and pull to 90# each time, instead of thinking about taking weight off just think of perfecting tiller and the weight will come off. Just keep making the tiller more perfect and more like what your ideal is. Always pulling to 90# and no more.
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Tnx Badger.
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what do the truck drivers use where you are?
stuff like this is reasonably priced
http://www.cargoequipmentcorp.com/2-Inch-Ratchet-Straps-with-Wire-Hooks-p/57xx84x-12.htm
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I have something like that at home, but how much "draw" this thing can get? I know you can use it, and I have personally use it for tying things but it never had big range of motion.
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remove the long strap, wind your parachute cord on the spool
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Well that ratchet would work. Didn't even cross my mind earlier. If you make a lot of heavy longbows, you will enjoy a winch like Del's.
Also the problem with normal step on stringing is that i tend to be a bit scared of pulling the bow towards me. They haven't smacked me YET, though...
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You really need to just get used to bracing heavy bows, if you want to make them. Even if your bow is currently 120lb that's a very easy weight to brace with the right technique. It's still within the limit for bracing without a stringer, as well. Not the knee method, but the step through works well, as do a few others.
If 120lb is causing these issues, what happens if you want to make a 150lb, or 170lb bow? Can't use winches and pulleys when you're shooting. Also, don't worry about winches and ratchets for tillering - they tend to just make it too slow and can sometimes even get stuck. Set up a good pulley system and tiller the bow with a strong rope. You can feel what's happening far easier, pull as quick or slowly as you like and it's a much more organic and healthy way of drawing the bow.
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Oh, and you don't need a second groove for the stringer. Once you're back to brace the horn nocks should go on, and the stringer should be made with slipknots each end. They slide over the horns, and tighten as the horn widens towards the bow tip. They'll sit firmly and won't slip further down, so you can cut just one groove in the horn instead of two. They never look right with two, when you're making sidenocks.
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For what it's worth, I have an ongoing back injury and I can sympathize with anyone struggling to brace bows no matter what technique they try!
The problem is caused by reaching out or twisting or both.
My solution is to make the stringer just long enough to fit and then use a short stick with a concave end to sit against the bow belly and a string slot to take the stringer.
The stick just needs to be long enough to get the bow to brace height.
So now you can brace by securing the bowstring while the bow is held at brace by the stick, no leaning over and no twisting!
My stick has a small piece of leather glued into the concave end to stop it slipping and prevent any scratching to the bows finish.
This small piece of kit is easy to take out into the field with you. Mine hangs off my quiver.
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Nice :D
I imagine it still causes issues getting those nasty slipknots out of sidenocks though ;)
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WillS, I would have to see this stringer you are talking about, mine is simply two loops string.
P.S. I don't bother myself with +120# bows and horn nocks because I didn't even finish this bow. After a few years I can start to think about this further.
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Hi Filip
To understand what Will is referring to, Take one end of your stringer and pass the loop through the loop on the other end and pull it all the way through. That end now has a running loop.
Now take the running loop and take it back to the other end and pass the whole running loop through the loop on that end and pull it all the way through.
Now you have running loops on both ends and they will tighten up under tension so that you don't need a second slot on your nock. Just tighten the running loop about a half inch above your upper limb nock slot. The lower limb running loop can rest right up against the bowyers knot.
Hey Will
I can't believe you haven't got the hang of it. Your not still using that F/F plastic stuff are you?
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Nope, linen. Simply doesn't work. I'm not alone though, nobody I've mentioned it to can do it either with bows over 130lb.
Filip the reason I mention 120lb bows is because that's what you said this is at the moment. You may be aiming for 90lb, but it doesn't make a difference. If you need to winch your bow down just to put a string on, you're doing something wrong no matter what weight it is.
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You really should be putting horns on though, it's far safer. You can get away with self nocks at 90lb, but they have to be absolutely perfect, and with you using modern string materials I'd imagine you will constantly find the tips splitting. If you switch to natural fibre strings you'll be fine, but you probably don't want to do that.
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I don't have horns nor natural fibers nor the way to obtain them, so these self nocks will have to suffice for now. I thought of using already premade FF endless string, but I could make double loop flemish from spectra fishing braid. One day when I will have enough money I could order these things from abroad.
@meanewood
I understand what you mean now.
I will probably put this heavy bowyering on pause for a year until I get proper resources. Its hard to get serious when you got jack shit to work with and no easy way to obtain them.
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The self nocks will be fine, but you MUST pad the string loops. The one you posted in the main bows section would cut through a self nock in minutes. Make the loops very, very thick by laying in lots of extra short strands and you'll be ok. Your string material is absolutely fine, as long as the string is made properly.
Remember that bow making is one of the oldest skills in the world. You don't need winches, pulleys, ratchets etc to make a bow. Heavy bows take a slightly different approach to lighter ones, but only in the sense that you ideally want the bow mounted on a wall instead of tillering by hand etc.
Horn tips can be bought online very easily and very cheaply, and you have everything else you need. There's no reason to stop now, just crack on and get into it.
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What if I simply make more strands than needed and thus get a thicker string? I have not measured diameter of string I posted but it is a 20 strands with each being 0,43 mm in diameter. I will put exact measurement later when I put calipers on it.
Where do you get horns? I registered myself to paypal so I could do online shopping. I looked at ebay but didn't find much. Some horns have a price of 20$ (or more) per 1 or 2 pieces which is completely ridiculous inflated price to me.
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...Where do you get horns? I registered myself to paypal so I could do online shopping. I looked at ebay but didn't find much. ..
Where are you? You say "$" do we assume USA?
There are good suppliers in the UK.
Del
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Croatia. I used $ to describe prices I saw on ebay, which are all in dollars. My paypal account and card are also compatible to dollars.
Here in Croatia you can't get almost anything related archery. Country nor people simply don't have interest in it. Those few that don't practice Olympic archer (vomit) must get everything from abroad which has prices that are mostly well noticed on our wallets. There are few archery shops but they sell only bows, arrows and maybe pre made strings.
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Do you not have cows in Croatia?
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My linen thread is rated at 18/5 and I get it from a leather-goods suppliers (they sell leather, buckles, threads and so-on for craft workers who make belts, saddles, riding gear, fishing tackle).
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Do you not have cows in Croatia?
And what if we have, do you think that I should go around villages and ask if someone slaughtered a cow recently so I could get horns.
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Just checked that dictum sells 20x100mm rolls of water buffalo horn at 4,4€. You could make two nocks out of it. I might myself order those...
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Do you not have cows in Croatia?
And what if we have, do you think that I should go around villages and ask if someone slaughtered a cow recently so I could get horns.
Pretty much, yes. If paying for them is a problem, do what you have to do. I get my cow horns from slaughterhouses, farms, cattle vets etc.
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I think it's time to (mis)quote Marshal Tito: "Snađi se, druže, ako se nećeš ni ja ti ne mogo pomoći!" For the English speakers, it means; "Comrade, get round it (as in, be resourceful) if you don't, then not even I can help you." And the man was everything back then, thus, no-one could help. :laugh:
Anyhow, I'm also having trouble finding useful cow horn on this side of the border. I've talked to a local farmer and he gave me a horn of a huge bull. But the trouble is that the horn is hollow all the way to the tip. The walls are nice and thick but they get really thin at the top and the inside tissue appears to have extended all the way to very apex of the horn. I talked to some people and they all say that's normal and indeed, that used to be my understanding of cow horn until I started this bowyering addiction. Now, I gave up on cow horn shortly thereafter because I found some nice stag antlers in the forest, but still.
What I wanted to say is that I understand where Filip is coming from with his frustration about horn. That's why one needs to channel one's inner communist dictator/leader/hero. :D
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Over here we can get horn, antler, hooves, rawhide and sometimes sinew at pet stores. They are all sold as dog chews. Maybe you have pet stores but maybe not.
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And what if we have, do you think that I should go around villages and ask if someone slaughtered a cow recently?
Not after the job is done, but you might offer to help out the next time a cow gets slaughtered. :)
The last moose I helped with got me all the sinew, some nice large bones, a hide, and enough steak for a few family cookouts, but the antlers were not offered. :(
Perhaps a post about your experiments with a substitute for cow horn will uncover ways other folks have found alternatives
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I think it's time to (mis)quote Marshal Tito: "Snađi se, druže, ako se nećeš ni ja ti ne mogo pomoći!" For the English speakers, it means; "Comrade, get round it (as in, be resourceful) if you don't, then not even I can help you." And the man was everything back then, thus, no-one could help. :laugh:
Anyhow, I'm also having trouble finding useful cow horn on this side of the border. I've talked to a local farmer and he gave me a horn of a huge bull. But the trouble is that the horn is hollow all the way to the tip. The walls are nice and thick but they get really thin at the top and the inside tissue appears to have extended all the way to very apex of the horn. I talked to some people and they all say that's normal and indeed, that used to be my understanding of cow horn until I started this bowyering addiction. Now, I gave up on cow horn shortly thereafter because I found some nice stag antlers in the forest, but still.
What I wanted to say is that I understand where Filip is coming from with his frustration about horn. That's why one needs to channel one's inner communist dictator/leader/hero. :D
Haha, Tito being "wise" as usual. Although you are lucky regarding other archery supplies as you have Disport website. I might order FF from them, but they don't have a lot of info on their products.
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Perhaps a post about your experiments with a substitute for cow horn will uncover ways other folks have found alternatives
If it comes to that I will. I think I read somewhere that there is an artificial substitute and I see that antler ones are cheaper than buffalo on some websites.
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Over here we can get horn, antler, hooves, rawhide and sometimes sinew at pet stores. They are all sold as dog chews. Maybe you have pet stores but maybe not.
Hmm... interesting idea. I'll check out it in nearby pet shop. Just to be clear, what I am looking for, in what shape horn comes? Also, is it that not too hard for chewing haha?
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I will continue today and try to brace it. These past few days didn't have time so I haven't even tried to do anything.
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Ok, so definitively couldn't brace it. Strength was not a problem but the fact that every string I used as a stringer stretched. I have some belt and I thinking of making a good stringer from it. But I don't know how I could attach it to bow tips. I saw little pockets that are sewn and I am not sure would high force rip off that sewing. Any ideas?
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Over here we can get horn, antler, hooves, rawhide and sometimes sinew at pet stores. They are all sold as dog chews. Maybe you have pet stores but maybe not.
Hmm... interesting idea. I'll check out it in nearby pet shop. Just to be clear, what I am looking for, in what shape horn comes? Also, is it that not too hard for chewing haha?
It comes as a horn. We get Water Buffalo here. They are from young animals I think, They are about 6"(15cm) long. About $7 Canadian.
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What are you using as a stringer? A bit of old paracord is the usual approach.
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Filip, stop beating around the bush, I'm waiting to see how a hazel warbow turns out! But here we are; (still) discussing the insanely complex device that is the stringer.
Maybe use that fishing braid as stringer material? Glue on temporary wooden nocks and use a double loop stringer. Problem solved.
Don't wanna use that braid? Use the belt you've mentioned, get some thick leather, make holes sufficiently away from the edge and "sew" the leather into pockets for the tips using the fishing braid. Male sure to use enough of it so that it doesn't just cut through the leather.
For heaven's sake just get on with the bow, one doesn't make a bow on the internet! ;D
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@WillS
I tried paracord 550 among other things. It stretches like crazy. To clarify, you and me talked some time ago about paracord and despite being legit and not chinese knock off copy, it has huge amount of stretch, but it never breaks. We never got a conclusion why that is like so. Definitely I must use that belt I found.
@Strichev
Be patient. Its easy to not beat around the bush when you have things going for you. When they do not, you are doing everything you can to get on the desired course and that takes time and effort. When I brace it it will be done in a day or two. I don't really have much time currently for anything related bows and its a wonder for me I even got to this stage. But I don't want to leave people wondering since I started this thread so I am using every available opportunity to continue the work.
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You're only getting it to brace height. You could use old elastic if you really wanted to. Any paracord is plenty good enough for bracing. If you really can't make it work, do a quick rough bracing string out of your fishing braid.
Getting a bow to brace and seeing it with a string on is supposed to take a couple of hours maximum, not days/weeks.
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Getting a bow to brace and seeing it with a string on is supposed to take a couple of hours maximum, not days/weeks.
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There is no "supposed".
It is not a race...
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Getting a bow to brace and seeing it with a string on is supposed to take a couple of hours maximum, not days/weeks.
Just to be clear, a "day" of bowyery in my life is actually an hour or two, since I don't spend a lot of time on it. I don't mind the slow pace, especially since there is a lot more important things in my life.
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Be patient. Its easy to not beat around the bush when you have things going for you.
True that. And indeed, patience is a must. All my work is currently on hold after I realized I've probably been idiotically making bows out of around 15% moisture content wood. Now I'm drying things indoors.
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if it is too stretchy, then double or triple it up. I find that stepping on the string with two outstretched feet goes easier than just one in middle (of course if the tips are two far to reach, then get a helper)
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if it is too stretchy, then double or triple it up. I find that stepping on the string with two outstretched feet goes easier than just one in middle (of course if the tips are two far to reach, then get a helper)
Interesting idea, I will try that and I'll post results. But the thing is that everywhere I read about paracord 550 I get two distinct answers. One camp says it stretches, other camp says it doesn't stretch and that you can use it for tillering string for example. I bought it from one store that sells survival gear among other things and they clarify that it's really a real deal paracord. Very weird. On wikipedia it says it has 30% stretch.
But the question then arises, what do guys that have non-stretchy paracord really use?
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I think it's highly unlikely that paracord differs that much. Perhaps your idea of stretchy is different to everybody else's ;)
If you use a 550 stringer, and stand on it pulling the bow upwards and the bow doesn't move at all, you're looking at something over 200lb. That's another thing to be aware of - because you've not done this before, there's a good chance your preconceptions are beating you. What may feel "heavy" to you could be very light to somebody who's used to heavy bows, and perhaps you don't know the difference in feel between getting a 90lb bow braced to a 130lb bow.
Hazel can make very, very heavy bows with not much depth. Maybe you've got one of those at the moment, and need to take it down a lot.
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The point is, when I made the length of paracord stringer such that I could barely get my foot onto it and pulled the bow, bow flexed (even though it's heavy then I am accustomed to) and it got almost to the point I could slip the loop of string. But, at the same time bow stretches the paracord such that I loose all the motion and mechanical advantage of "deadlift" and basically my hand is doing all the work. Do you understand what I am saying?
If I would have non stretchy stringer I could just simply pull and slip the loop.
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Sounds normal to me. It's probably just new to you, and you need to develop the technique.
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Brief update:
Yesterday I made the stringer from super durable polymer based belt. I made better double loop flemish tillering string and 40 mm in diameter ring which serves as string adjuster (Del uses similar).
I braced the bow with practically no effort but my string stretched. I set it 3" shorter than nocks in order to get full brace height but it simply settled against belly of bow. I am not sure what to think of it, it's much better made and I suspect it needs just to settle. Any ideas?
I will tomorrow wind a bit around the ring in order to shorter it, as I have guests in house and can't work on the bow today.
Also I will put various pictures.
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Guests went away and I used the ring to adjust the string and again went for bracing. Then I realized. String doesn't stretch at all, windings untwist as each winding of the loop pulls other toward itself and that causes string to lengthen. I don't really know what I did wrong and there is no material left.
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Keep it simple. Get rid of all the tricks and the rings and the belts etc.
You're just making a bow.
Make one string that has a bowyers knot at one end, so you can set the right length. Make another string to use as a stringer. Brace the bow high enough that the tips aren't pulling the string apart, but are being pulled downwards. I personally always go to full brace height immediately, but that's up to you. The lower the brace height, the more the string will want to stretch.
We're talking primitive weapons here. Always have that in mind and you'll be fine.
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Paracord is actually parachute cord, it is stretchy to absorb the shock of a 200 # plus jumper and his/her equipment at the opening of the parachute. Really great stuff! For trivia, the standard US military chute has 26 suspension lines, each 550# test, cargo chutes many more. You might try a couple strands of lawn mower pull cord, it does' stretch so much, but I haven't the experience to do more than throw out an idea.
Hawkdancer
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You might try a couple strands of lawn mower pull cord, it does' stretch so much, but I haven't the experience to do more than throw out an idea.
Hawkdancer
Have tried that, didn't work much. Comes already as a rope and has a stretch but doesn't break.
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Keep it simple. Get rid of all the tricks and the rings and the belts etc.
You're just making a bow.
Make one string that has a bowyers knot at one end, so you can set the right length. Make another string to use as a stringer. Brace the bow high enough that the tips aren't pulling the string apart, but are being pulled downwards. I personally always go to full brace height immediately, but that's up to you. The lower the brace height, the more the string will want to stretch.
We're talking primitive weapons here. Always have that in mind and you'll be fine.
I did went for a full brace height, but something is not right, string just settled against the belly. Luckily I finally can brace the bow and as I soon my paypal activates I am buying FF spool.
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Are you pre-stretching your string? They all have stretch in them, it has to be removed by pre-stretching once the string has been finished.
Can you post some pics of the string you've just made?
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I will post pictures tomorrow. Also, I think I realized for real this time what is wrong with string. It's a bit about material but mostly about my technique. I made stupid mistake while making it. Lets just say that I didn't twist properly and these twists don't function properly.
Not sure if it's smart to untwist the whole thing and start over, might be a bit hard to separate bundles.
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I take them apart and redo them all the time. Take as much of the old twist out as you can. Once you've made a few strings you start to understand what's going on in there and you can second guess stuff.
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Do you think it would be possible to get in contact with those Chinese UHMWPE spectra fishing braid manufacturers and order just a monofilament string? They have to braid it, but they could just take it off the production line before braiding and just ship it out. I guess it would have to be a large order for them to bother doing that but still... it would probably be way cheaper than "archery" fast flight. It's the same material.
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I found 35$, 2700 feet FF string on ebay. Brand is Brownell and seller is from USA. I'll order this, as I don't care about fishing braid and I don't ever intend to buy it again. That stuff is so hard to work with as its so slick and dry that it doesn't really make sense using it, except if it's your only way (like mine was).
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Dunno, I didn't find it that hard to work with the braid, just wax it liberally. But yeah, being super cheap about things ain't good. Then again, 1000 m braid is cheaper than 900 m fast-flight - and it's way thicker. So, you could get 3000 m for the same price as that proper FF.
I'll probably also order a proper FF spool. If you ever find good linen or hemp for making strings, do send me a PM.
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Suitable linen isn't hard to find (just search for Barbour 18/3 and try and get the original Irish stuff, but the new EU made Barbour is fine too) but hemp.... Urgh. I've been stripping down hemp plants for weeks now to make strings and it's a very unpleasant job. Absolutely the best natural fibre for strings though, no question. You can get it from Japan or India in full length fibres if you're rich, or do it the long slow way - either method you can make glued hemp strings incredibly thin that will be safe in the heaviest bows you could ever imagine.
Linen works best I've found as a full reverse twist string with 3 plies - imagine you're twisting up the loop of a normal string, and just keep doing the same thing for the full length.
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Thank Will, I'll look into that. I'd really like a natural string on a bow for once.
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Linen works best I've found as a full reverse twist string with 3 plies - imagine you're twisting up the loop of a normal string, and just keep doing the same thing for the full length.
Why full twist? I remember you have made linen strings for 130 pound bows at least, is that the highest?
I've always made the normal flemish.
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It just helps remove the inconsistencies with unknown fibres. I wasn't impressed with the breaking strain tests, so full reverse twist locks the short fibres in much better. That string was still only about 3mm which is a good size for general shooting.
You can definitely make them without reverse twisting the whole string, but you'd need very good quality linen thread in order to do it, or treat it like the hemp strings and glue instead of wax them. I know it's been done at 180lb without reverse twisting.
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Will, is this Barbour 18/3 you are talking about or that "EU made" as you put it? Can you do it two plys flemish? What is the breaking strength of each strand?
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It's all 18/3 Barbour, but it used to be made in Ireland before the company shut down. It's now made in the EU somewhere. There's still the original spools out there but they're not always stored correctly, and can be very weak and brittle.
You can do 2 ply Flemish but it won't be very strong. It can get quite complicated, but essentially you need to make sure you have a maximum of 7 individual strands per bundle. Depending on breaking strain you then need to calculate how many bundles you need. 3 ply is far stronger than 2 ply, even with the same number of strands. For instance, if you decide you need 21 strands, you must make the string with 3 plies of 7 strands.
With modern string materials you can just bunch up as many strands as you want, but with natural fibre strings you have to be much more careful.
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I have to see that 3 ply technique. I am noob in the 2 ply one, let alone in the 3 plys haha.
Anyway, just few minutes ago I untwisted tillering string, carefully separated bundles, waxed it much more and made it again with applying what I learned yesterday. I think this now is much better made. I will brace the bow in the afternoon when I have more time to work.
Two loops
(https://i.imgur.com/dEctjJW.jpg)
Two loops closer, no coiling this time
(https://i.imgur.com/J0DMIEj.jpg)
Stringer
(https://i.imgur.com/eSaAWS6.jpg)
Stringer strength haha
(https://i.imgur.com/lL9CMXM.jpg)
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Look at this, finally made a good string and already at least 3 strand broke. To start from beginning, I braced the bow about 10 times, because each time strand lengthened from full brace to be almost on belly. Each time winding around the ring to shorten it. It seems that ring created uneven tension and couple of strands broke.
I am not sure what to do. Should I do timber hitch on one end and disregard these broken 3 strands and have faith in the rest of 17 strands to hold?
Each strand has breaking strength of 80# and math supports that, but keep in mind that we have bundles of uneven number of strands.
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You don't wind it around the ring to shorten, you simply reverse twist. I have never had a string twist more than 1/2". I don't think you are putting enough reverse twists in to keep the string from unraveling once you have pressure on it. You should have at least a couple of reverse twists per inch. You also might be twisting the wrong way. You twist the string the same direction you twisted it when you built the string. Usually counter clockwise.
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After you have completed your second loop hook one of the loops over something and take the other end and start twisting, don't pull on it too hard until you have enough twists to lock in the loops.
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I put a lot of twists on it and string doesn't appear to rotate/unwind/whatever you want to call it (as string before did) as I brace bow.
When you look at the bow braced, you can see how brace height lowers almost 1 mm per second (!) until it lays on the belly.
Also, this string is very long and twisting it a lot would not make it suitable for bracing this bow, so I used ring.
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You can twist the hell out of a string and it won't hurt it. Fast flite string does not stretch. I have built hundreds and hundreds of them. You will get a little stretch on a new string until it pulls tight and that's it. We need to find out what you are doing wrong. Too low of a brace height will put extra stress on a string also. Is your stretched string at least 3" shorter than your nock to nock?
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It's not fast flight, but spectra fishing braid. I used the ring to adjust string to be about 3" or bit more shorter than ntn length of bow. When I put it on bow and it lengthens by these 3". These process was repeated at least five times, each time stretching.
It's not untwisting like the previous badly made string so I am really wondering where does it get that additional length.
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It has to be the string, I am also using some spectra 100# test at the moment because I ran out of string. I am not getting any stretch. I say get a different string.
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Are the loops getting bigger/ smaller? You say it's stretching 3". Does it recover at all? If the 3" was coming from the loops they would have pulled out by now I would think. Especially if you did it five times. That's 15" of string that had to come from somewhere. Somethings not adding up.
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I have heard stories of counterfeit Spectra out there. The word "Spectra" wasn't hand written on the label was it ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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They sell it by the yard, I bought about 100 yards for about $20.00 jut to get my by 100#
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Even the crap stuff wouldn't stretch an extra 15" though would it? That's really going some.
Have we got a rough idea of the draw weight yet? Any measured weight at any distance?
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Just read back through the thread, and so far it looks like the bow is 70" ntn, 40mm wide and has 40mm of reflex.
That's the DNA of an absolute monster. I'm not surprised it's causing issues.
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I once had a tillering string break when the ring I was using to adjust the length was a bit too sharp (flat). The string snapped at 120 pounds and I almost flew backwards over a retention wall - if it weren't for grape wines I'd end up going over. 7 feet backwards isn't that much fun.
Make sure that the stands are all equal length and make another string. I'd make a new string, hell, a bit of practice doesn't hurt. Make it thicker or something. Also, I'm sure you know this but the ring really really needs to be smooth and round.
300 pound bow might be a problem :D
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It is easy enough to check the draw weight without bracing the bow. Simply put a loose string on it and pull it down to desired draw weight. It will read the same thing if it were braced. I have been doing this for a few years now so don't tell me it won't work. If it reads 125 at 24" with a loose string it will read about 125 @ 24" if it were braced.
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To answer all your questions:
1. Loops are completely intact. They don't get larger and look the same as in pictures above.
2. Spectra is not fake, it was bought from legit seller. Brand is Power Pro, 300 yards.
3. Bow has now about 20 mm of reflex and it's 35 mm wide. I accidentally wrote that is 40 mm wide in the first post. Sorry for that. It was actually 38 mm and I shaved sides by 3 mm in order to get it a little bit lighter. It's 28 mm thick and 70" nock to nock.
No way that this is the monster now!
4. I will measure again draw weight again as I got new scale so I will write what it says.
5. Adjustment ring was made on lathe machine and has chamfers so it wouldn't cut the string.
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Anyways, I am still perplexed about this.
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I've used power pro and stopped using it because of that insane stretch. I think the fishing braid makers lie about the true strength of the fibre. You could do a strength test for it, if you are interested in.
Spiderwire has proven a lot better when it comes to fishing braid, zero strech with that one.
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If it's a good piece of hazel (they can vary dramatically) then at 38mm (or 35mm even - width makes very little difference to weight at this stage) and 28mm thick you're still looking at potentially 140lb or so - especially with some reflex. At this stage the bow hasn't been drawn more than a few inches, so it's still completely fresh.
I've got a bow in the workshop at the moment which is exactly 40mm wide and 29mm thick and it was at least 140lb last time I checked, and has no reflex.
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Oh, and it's 76" ntn. Yours is 70" so I'd say you're at least looking at 145lb, if not quite a bit more - but that's if it's really good hazel.
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@JNystrom, you may be completely right but I don't know for sure. Were you using exactly this:
http://img.tacklewarehouse.com/watermark/rs.php?path=PPSL-1.jpg&nw=302
On picture spool says 65 lbs, but I have 80 lbs one. Also 300 yds like the one on picture.
@Will S
In my experience, hazel is very weird tree. Trees that grow near each other and be of same size can have completely different properties. For example, one of my hazel flatbows came out to be 60# at the end which I wanted and under my draw knife wood seemed to be not too hard.
But one other hazel flatbow with almost the same dimensions came out at the end to be little under 50#.
This hazel was very hard to work with. I think it has much bigger SG than these two examples above. But I doubt it's above 140lb.
It's funny that people put hazel in the category of weak or even not too good bow woods, but that probably depends on location.
It's also interesting that Gibbs made really big hazel bow in order to get 150# (is that so?).
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I think you might be surprised. Reflex of any kind bumps the weight significantly, especially at the very beginning. If you were confident enough to brace it at full height and draw to 25" immediately you'd see just how heavy this bow could be, but by the time you've got your eye in, worked on the tiller, missed a few minor hinges, caught them too late etc etc, that reflex will be gone, the weight will be dropping and you'll end up somewhere sensible.
You still need to get a rough estimate of weight so everybody knows what you're actually dealing with, otherwise all we can offer is supposition and guesswork. It could be a 70lb bow or a 140lb at this point, and your approach will change dramatically depending on the answer.
I can't remember now what dimensions Joe used, but it wasn't that big. Possibly just over 30mm deep. It's more about how you make a bow though really. Two people could start with the exact same stave, exact same dimensions and end up with completely different bows based on how often the bow is drawn on the tiller, how slow the process is, how well they treat the bow etc.
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I pulled the bow on tiller so that the tips touched bracing line and the scale says this is around 100#. Does that mean that bow will be 100# at full draw with short string? I think I read something like that before.
Also, did a read about spectra power pro and the result is mixed opinions. A lot of people say that it stretches too much and some people say it doesn't at all. I just love contradictory opinions.
P.S.
I have already pre made FF string for 70" bows but it's endless with thin padded loops. If I were to use this, this would have slightly bigger brace height than usual as string is 66,5" long and not 67" but I could finish the tillering. On the other hand I worry that nocks will snap during tillering. I wouldn't shoot the bow with it though.
Use it or not use it???
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I pulled the bow on tiller so that the tips touched bracing line and the scale says this is around 100#. Does that mean that bow will be 100# at full draw with short string? I think I read something like that before.
No!
Just to clarify and reinforce what Badger said about the long string.
If the long string just dangles down about 6" or less it will pull to the same weight and length as when braced.
IF it is a VERY long string (say dangling down a foot) it won't read right.
I recently checked this on the last warbow I made (120#)
So get a string that will just slip on to the bow. Pull it to your target draw weight and read off the draw length, that will agree pretty closely to the draw length when braced.
Del
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Ah, ok, I pulled with string that lay against the belly. I will pull again to the 90# and see where it it shows as draw length. I am not completely sure but I think it was about 20" where it showed about 90#.
By doing math it seems that at the 28" bow will be 141# or have I calculated wrong???
90# @ 20"
20" - brace height (6") = 14"
that means 90# @ 14" -> 90# / 14 = 6,43
28" (full draw) - 20" = 8"; 8" * 6,43 = 51,4#
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51,4# + 90# = 141,4#
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Yep, it was excactly that. Try spiderwire, if you don't have anything else. Not that spiderwire is any bad, its just slippery. I have shot all my flight shoots with spiderwire and really heavy tension at brace. 80 pound 50" shorties and such.
About the poundage, just go ahead and thin the bow a lot. There is still heat treating to be done....
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Sh*t, guess I got fooled with that "no stretch" ads. Look I would rather wait few days for my pay pal to activate fully (waiting for my card) and order proper spool of FF bowstring material than anymore experiment with stuff that may not even work.
Regarding poundage, I am not at ease with thinning the bow yet. You know that poundage drops rapidly with each mm or less. I would rather slowly tiller and than reduce the weight than reduce the weight now and be surprised with underweight bow.
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Felipe, your math wont work, your bow is 90# @20", braced or not braced. The string angle is what mainly influences weight, not a build up of pressure in the wood from drawing it further. Let your string hang loose a few inches when you check it instead of tight against the bow. I have been doing this for years. I keep mine on a long string all the way to 24" now and then brace. I just read the weight where it reads, no math. It is pretty accurate.
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But again, not talking about math, is it or is it not 90# at 20"? Btw, that math formula circulates on archery forums, that was not my invention.
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If you went to full brace on the bow right now I think it would be much closer to 90#@20". My string hangs a little loose and when I pull a little tension on it is usually sitting at about 5 or 6". This give me a pretty accurate assessment of my draw weight with no extra figuring.
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What is your target draw weight? I like to pull mine to target weight every time I put it on the tree. If it starts to take set early on you know to lower your expectations. The final few inches it is not unusual to loose a little weight to set but you want to avoid as much of that as possible.
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My goal is 90# (or maybe even 100#), if it's so unnecessary heavy now, than I still have some shaving off to do, which will hopefully remove excess weight. I even plan to heat treat it as I bought heat gun.
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Took the string we are talking about these few last pages and got it to dangle a bit and than pulled to about 100# like Badger and Del said. Like I said, it is about 100# at 20".
Than I took the pre made FF string which is not exactly suitable for shooting this bow because of its thin loops and braced the bow with it. I did this as LAST RESORT, because that spectra fishing braid wouldn't ever stop stretching. I risked everything just to finish this bow and I dare to say it paid off.
I braced it with ease and looked at the profile. String stretched just a tiny bit and I measured that brace height dropped about 5 mm since initial bracing and then stopped. Nothing severe like the spectra obvious brace height dropping.
When I put the bow on tiller I immediately noticed on left limb (lower limb) hinge that will develop soon if I am not careful. Coincidentally and interestingly, hinge on the lower limb is almost exactly same distance as the kink on the right limb (upper limb). Marked this place to avoid it in future.
Profile was a bit uneven, upper limb was weaker and lower was stronger. I rasped the lower limb to correct this. After not too much rasping and scraping later, I put the bow again on tiller, this time connecting the scale to pulley.
It read 100# at 18". I removed the string and scraped lower limb a bit more and upper a bit less. Now again on the tiller I got 100# at 20". Limbs look very even. I called quits for today as it's so dark outside and in my garage (despite the light bulbs) that eyes are playing tricks on me. I will continue tomorrow.
Question:
Is there a math that will estimate draw weight in current state at 28" / 29"?
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If it's braced properly (between 4 and 6") and reading 100lb at 18" you're looking at 166lb if nothing else changes (which it will) at 30", or 155lb at 28".
You're going to lose a lot of weight as you get your eye in, muck about with the tiller, second guess yourself etc. The reflex will pull out as well. I'd say you'll be left with pretty much exactly 140lb at 30" if everything goes very well.
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Sounds like you are on track, but don't rush. :)
The moral of the story, is use decent string material....
Del
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Yes, it's 6" brace. Reflex is almost gone too. What do you think how much wood will this bow loose till it gets to 100 at 28". Just so I know the estimate, are we talking about millimeters here or scrapings?
Yes, Del, it's radically different feel when you have non stretchy stringer and non stretchy string. What a feeling to finally see this bow braced! I must now go slowly, tomorrow I will try photographing the bow so I can put it on computer to see better bend and where to scrape.
I learned so much from my errors on this bow. Definitively I am going much wiser to the next longbow projects. But the biggest thing is still estimating at beginning how thick to leave staves so I don't have over excessive wood removal to get to target weight. It's obvious that I underestimated initial thickness of this bow and that is why I have such strong wood. Also there was this "hazel is soft wood" theory at the back of my head during shaping. "Oh, it's hazel, make it much thicker!" Yeah sure, do that and feel pain hahaha.
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What do you think how much wood will this bow loose till it gets to 100 at 28". Just so I know the estimate, are we talking about millimeters here or scrapings?
Go for scrapings rather than rasping.
If the thickness now is about 35 mm and 140# at full draw, you'll end up with roughly 32 mm at 100#. But that's just a silly equation (from the cubic relation between thickness and draw weight).
Tiller slowly. You've been taking your time so far, now is not the time to rush.
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Instead of thinking of it as removing weight think of it as perfecting tiller and the weight will continue to drop as you perfect it. Just keep bringing it to your target weight and keep perfecting. If it continues to take set past the reflex you put in you might want to reconsider your target weight. If you want 90# don't pull it to 100, I would not brace a 90# bow when it is reading 90#@20" still a bit too heavy but it is too late for that now.
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I think I will go for 100# at 28", that is why I am pulling to this weight. Tnx for advice guys, I'll keep you updated.
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But the biggest thing is still estimating at beginning how thick to leave staves so I don't have over excessive wood removal to get to target weight.
Removing excess wood is good for the soul (and the upper body) ;D
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I tillered bow to 24", where it reads 100#. Now I need help how to proceed further. Here is a picture of bow at 23". Are limbs okay or not, should I remove evenly from both sides?
(https://i.imgur.com/gkC8A1r.jpg)
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Left limb looks good, right looks a tad stiff.
Take a few even strokes of the rasp all along the right limb and put it on the tiller again.
Del
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How about now? This is 100# at 26". I think right limb needs just a bit more. I am very near end and this here are last opportunities to correct the bend.
(https://i.imgur.com/2kYCOwU.jpg)
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I removed just a bit wood from the right (upper) limb. Scale shows 100# at 27". I will continue tomorrow because it's getting dark and I have some other things to do. But bottom line is that I want to hear your opinion guys. What do you think of this bend, should I correct something or it's basically done and ready for 28" draw?
What is next for me, should I make radius on edges (currently it's small chamfer), scrape the tool marks, etc.?
(https://i.imgur.com/bUmfFdI.jpg)
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Personally I'd say the tips are still quite a bit too stiff - especially the left one in the last photo. You may well find that if you leave it the way it is currently that you start to develop chrysals on the belly around the handle area, out to mid-limb on both sides. It sort of depends what cross section you've gone for, but I'd be thinking about bringing those tips round quite a bit yet.
You also need to work out where you're going to be holding it and shooting it from - if it's on the tiller in the dead centre of the bow, and the pulley hook is on the dead centre of the string, when you put it in your hand the tiller will be off. Won't take much to correct it, but it's something you need to consider. If you're actually mounting the bow on the wall below centre, and the string pulley is just above centre then ignore all of that ;)
Finally - chrysals in hazel are often really hard to see, on account of the timber being so white. Make sure you give it a really careful check in different lighting from different angles - even the tiniest hairline chrysal can suddenly fold up and become an issue, so before you go any further be 100% certain you've not got any, otherwise you'll have to retiller to account for them.
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It's bad light but if you look closely at center you can notice that bow sits in "saddle" at center but the pulley pulls 1" to the right. That is where I put arrows. I designed tiller setup this way so I don't need to worry about making lower limb stiffer. It simply becomes stiffer when you tiller it and produces balance while holding in hand.
I am looking constantly for this chysals, but I didn't find any. Bow is long 72" tip to tip, how much of length of tips should I correct?
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That's looking better, just scraping away tool marks and rounding the corners off (especially at the tips .. last 8" or so) will help gain the last inches of draw.
I'd then get some arrows through it to give it a chance to settle and then have another look at it.
If the right limb is the upper, you could round those corners just a bit more which will help give it a hint more bend and will take some stress off the left limb.
Tiny changes will effect the balance and tiller, it doesn't take much to fine tune a bow at this stage.
Del
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Will do that, except shooting. I don't have suitable arrows yet and this string might not be best choice for shooting this kind of bow. That is why I am ordering soon feathers, string material and some other things to make arrows suitable for these higher weights.
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I scraped both limbs, made the bend more circular but I think left limb is a bit stiffer; scraped the tips too and center to bring limbs down more. I think the tiller is good but not total perfect. I rasped the radii on the edges and sanded the bow to 400 grit. After everything was done, bow showed 100# at 28" draw. After I make arrow pass mark I will coat the bow with beeswax. Tomorrow you will get more pictures, it's raining outside so I couldn't shoot some photos.
Question: what to do about arrow pass? What are materials that could be put there and are easy to obtain? I thought about putting piece of horn from arrow nocks reinforcement.
DIMENSIONS:
Length nock to nock: 70"
Length tip to tip: 72"
Width at center: 34 mm (1,33")
Thickness at center: 24 mm (0,94")
Set: 21 mm (0,83")
Width profile is gradual taper to the tips.
FULL DRAW
(https://i.imgur.com/bErF5SF.jpg)
UNBRACED PROFILE
(https://i.imgur.com/SaYmtYB.jpg)
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For an arrow pass, horn, bone, antler, mother of pearl or nothing at all.
You only really need an arrow pass if you are shooting heavy arrows with binding on the fletchings as these can rip into soft wood.
Someone will tell you that this isn't true, but I've had to put arrow passes onto Yew Warbows that have been severely worn so I know it to be true.
Good job with the bow, it's not easy to get 100# from a piece of Hazel :)
BTW, funny how subjective it is, I'd say right is still very slightly stiffer especially in the outer third. Over all much better and looking good, get some arrows through it and review it after a month's shooting to see if the tiller has shifted :)
Del
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Make your arrows well and you don't need an arrow pass. They weren't used historically because authentic arrows have the bindings sealed under wax or resin. Make them with thick ugly binding and you might want one.
It's a Victorian addition and considering how you're using sidenocks it would be pretty weird to have an arrow pass as well, but that's just my opinion.
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I thought about arrow pass because if I don't put anything, how I will know where to put arrows? Is there a way to mark the center or that pass without arrow scraping it off? I thought about india ink but this will surely come off after repeated shooting. That is the only reason why I mentioned arrow pass.
When you mention "sealed", you are thinking about verdigris compound that is in thickness just over the binding, right? I would like to make my first arrows with this stuff.
Del, that outer third houses this kink you can see on unbraced profile; I was a bit afraid it would ruin the tiller if I concentrate too much on that area so I left it a bit stiffer.
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One easy and authentic method is just to use pure beeswax under the fletchings, bind them into it with strong silk and gently heat the wax afterwards. It will melt slightly, coating the bindings and set into a hard layer over them.
The easiest way of marking the arrow pass is simply to scratch a small mark in the wood. That's how the MR bows were marked. You could also burn a simple design in, or just draw/paint something.
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Apart from bindings, do you coat the rest of the arrow with beeswax, do these arrows have any coat for protection or are they just bare wood?
I think I will just heat the head of some big nail and press into the wood.
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We've currently got no evidence that any arrow shafts were sealed or coated with anything. Burnishing usually does enough, and some common arrow shaft woods are extremely rot resistant, such as aspen. Obviously not an issue to them, but sometimes you'll find the arrows get muddy and dirty with lots of shooting, so a modern finish like oil might be an option, depending how authentic you wish to get!
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Interesting, makes sense. This winter I am getting into serious arrow making haha.
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Good job, the bow only shows some set just past mid limbs toward the tips, I am wondering if you may have side tapered it a bit too much in that area. Overall very good job!
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I think they might be, but also these were the places of some kinks and that overall affected the set.
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Heat the head of a big round headed nail and use that to burn in a mark :)
Del
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That is what I will do.
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That is quite the bow for white wood, Filip. Are you going to shoot in warbow events? SCA?
when I was a bit younger I found that It did not take long to get used to pulling heavy weights, but you have to be careful not to overdo it while working up to weight, as sore muscles will set the training back rather quickly.
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Well done! at first I had expected this bow to blow during tillering, but you made it, and it's looking good! Congratulations.
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That is quite the bow for white wood, Filip. Are you going to shoot in warbow events? SCA?
when I was a bit younger I found that It did not take long to get used to pulling heavy weights, but you have to be careful not to overdo it while working up to weight, as sore muscles will set the training back rather quickly.
From what I read and saw here, white woods can make ridiculously powerful bows and when done properly they sometimes even surpass famous yew.
Archery is not really popular interest in Croatia and we don't have shoots here; I would like to make bowyering and warbows popular here.
This is just for me, to build up strength and technique for shooting these heavy bows. It will be some time before I make heavier bow than this.
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Well done! at first I had expected this bow to blow during tillering, but you made it, and it's looking good! Congratulations.
Thank you. I expected blow near bracing as it was so heavy and didn't know if the bend is good enough.
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Here are some pics. Arrow pass is simple black dot which I burned into wood with nail head. It is set 1" towards the upper limb. This is the same place pulley pulls on tiller. Belly radii are about 4 millimeters and those on the back just 1 mm. Cross section is a squashed rectangle, not a "D" or oval. I think that this cross section prevents chrysals from developing. Beeswax was applied on the wood and then heated with heat gun and rubbed into the wood with rag. Grain became just slightly visible because of it; it doesn't have that nice look like some other woods as hazel rings are very light in color.
Belly side
(https://i.imgur.com/juYjAGS.jpg)
Back side
(https://i.imgur.com/cjKkYaA.jpg)
Kink in the upper limb
(https://i.imgur.com/nHPPijg.jpg)
Lower limb
(https://i.imgur.com/G5fwcvk.jpg)
Overall profile, the bow is a bit slanted so it appears that string doesn't lay good
(https://i.imgur.com/GW5nQCA.jpg)
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That is probably the best cross section for the wood you used on that bow. In flight shooting we have to have a more rounded cross section to qualify. I have always felt the best cross section is the one that works best but the rules say otherwise. Good job on that one!
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When does oval section work for warbows? Only on yew or it can also on whitewoods?
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It will work on most whitewoods but flat is usually better. Another thing we have to adhere to is that no part of the limb can have a width to thickness ratio of less than 5/8
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It will work on most whitewoods but flat is usually better. Another thing we have to adhere to is that no part of the limb can have a width to thickness ratio of less than 5/8
That is, if you want to shoot it in the ELB section. you can still shoot such a bow in the unlimited class broadheads.
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What does this 5/8 ratio mean, thickness to width? Was that common knowledge for warbows centuries ago or it's modern invention like victorian bow?
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Looking good, I'm sure that with better lighting and background it would look great! :) White-woods have their own workhorse kind of charm. The more one looks at them the nicer they get.
Did you heat treat this one? If not you could try shooting it for a bit untreated and then, when you have another heavy bow ready, heat this one and compare the distances and such, it would be interesting - considering that hazel supposedly responds really well to heat.
Can we get a braced and an FD pic? I wonder what cast you'll get with proper arrows as set seems minimal and the profile should make for a fast bow.
Looking at this I can't wait for my ash stave to dry; I might try for a 100 pounder too.
Good stuff, this bow.
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You have FD pic on previous page, I didn't take photo of braced profile. I didn't heat treat it, too much of a hassle for first time doing this bow; I had plenty of challenges already as you all know haha.
My next heavy bow will be heat treated, that is for sure. It will be some time till I get all materials for string and arrows, make them and use them.
I will put some update in future where I talk about performance. Also, before all that I must get comfortable drawing this bow. You know that this needs technique I never used before to shoot.
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The 5/8 thing is a modern invention to provide a definition for minimum thickness/width of English longbow to avoid people making flat limbed bows and calling them English longbows. It is rare to get anywhere near the 5/8 ratio most longbows come out nearer 6/8 or even thicker.
I have deliberately gone to 5/8 on occasion to make the belly a bit wider on bamboo backed bows
Del
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In my case it's 24 / 34 = 0,706
5 / 8 = 0,625
6 / 8 = 0,75
So my bow is more similar to 6/8 principle.
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Yup, that's pretty normal especially for a white wood.
Del