Primitive Archer

Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: leonwood on October 22, 2017, 08:18:29 am

Title: Elderberry hld, 60@28
Post by: leonwood on October 22, 2017, 08:18:29 am
So I am just trying out all the local woods which I think can make a bow.
This elderberry stave was cut last may with a hld in mind. I split it immediately, debarked it and threw in the corner of my shed. Thickest part was about 2.5 inch. A few weeks ago I decided to take it out of the corner and start work on it. The hollow pith was split across the whole stave while drying but this was only a problem in the handle. Roughed it out and steamed a sideways kink in the handle straight. After that I rasped the handle flat and glued on a small piece of acacia over the split and the remaning hole.
First plan was to make it short but I kind of liked the snakey tip so decided to keep it long and see what would come out.
The limbs where also twisted about 40 degrees, got some of it out during heat treating and left the rest. (Twisted staves plays tircks on you while tillering because it looks so different from opposite sides!)
Ended up at 60@28 and shoots really smooth! I think hld and lighter woods like elder make a great combo! Shot it quite a bit and still shows no sign of set so I probably could have gone narrower or shorter. Did not really measure anything, just chopped away and left it as wide as the stave allowed.
The back was dyed with ecoline ink. This stuff soakes in quite deep. It will probably fade a bit over time, just an experiment to see if it will work.
The handle was wrapped with four peaces of leftover leather lace.

Specs:
Wood: elderberry
Lenght: 66" ntn
Draw weight: 60@28
Max width: 1.8"
Nocks: ipe
Handle: leather lace
String: 8 strand fastflight continuous


// side
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4451/37660113706_c6bba793ab_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/ZnTVKh)

// top
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4460/37715881651_9a26fcc7c0_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/ZsPKBz)

// braced
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4470/37785816786_cda9cb43c8_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/Zz1bTL)

(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4456/37045938243_41e94e227f_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/YrC7Ma)


// belly
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4449/23981879028_97b774c410_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/Cxcp7U)

// details
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4452/37006559624_aa66a46fe4_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/Yo9hTs)

(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4467/37684283902_9fd26f0565_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/Zq2NGN)

(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4450/37834229721_45637b4e6e_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/ZDhjnx)

(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4503/37785842746_6f457f170a_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/Zz1jBm)

(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4450/37684283762_599041cdc9_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/Zq2NEo)


// fd
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4461/37786054966_cdb0b6c77a_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/Zz2pGj)
Title: Re: Elderberry hld, 60@28
Post by: S.C. hunter on October 22, 2017, 11:06:55 am
Leonwood,
  Wow , that looks great!  You did a great job on a stave that had to be a challenge to work.  You obviously know what you are doing, keep it up.
  Steve
Title: Re: Elderberry hld, 60@28
Post by: bjrogg on October 22, 2017, 01:08:33 pm
Another beautiful bow Leonwood, looks like a killer. Thanks for sharing
Bjrogg
Title: Re: Elderberry hld, 60@28
Post by: leonwood on October 22, 2017, 01:51:42 pm
Thanks guys, this wast just to try a bow from elderberry. I must say it surprised me, works really easy, a bit like hazel, but the performance is a lot better than hazel. Will search for some cleaner staves in the spring. There's loads of it around here but usually grows with extreme reflex. Will be fun to try that as well😝
Title: Re: Elderberry hld, 60@28
Post by: Morgan on October 22, 2017, 02:03:25 pm
Gorgeous bow!
Title: Re: Elderberry hld, 60@28
Post by: osage outlaw on October 22, 2017, 02:04:41 pm
Very nice looking bow.  Great job on it.
Title: Re: Elderberry hld, 60@28
Post by: Hans H on October 22, 2017, 02:46:44 pm
well done!,
Hans
Title: Re: Elderberry hld, 60@28
Post by: bradsmith2010 on October 22, 2017, 03:20:48 pm
looks great congrats (SH)
Title: Re: Elderberry hld, 60@28
Post by: Del the cat on October 22, 2017, 03:27:06 pm
Great looker :)
Del
Title: Re: Elderberry hld, 60@28
Post by: George Tsoukalas on October 22, 2017, 03:28:30 pm
Awesome! Congratulations! Jawge
Title: Re: Elderberry hld, 60@28
Post by: upstatenybowyer on October 22, 2017, 03:51:25 pm
Very nice. I really dig the dye on the back  ;)
Title: Re: Elderberry hld, 60@28
Post by: Buckeye Guy on October 22, 2017, 04:19:22 pm
Looks to me like you nailed right on
good job
Title: Re: Elderberry hld, 60@28
Post by: Parnell on October 22, 2017, 05:31:03 pm
Looks beautiful!  I really like how the hollow design moves into the handle.  The tiller looks great!
Title: Re: Elderberry hld, 60@28
Post by: selfbow joe on October 22, 2017, 06:02:02 pm
Pretty cool looking bow. Nice work
Title: Re: Elderberry hld, 60@28
Post by: simson on October 22, 2017, 06:33:05 pm
Very very nice, Leon. I like theprofiles also the execution work over all. If you have access to a chrony - let us know! Mass is also interesting.

And yes elder is great bow wood - if you find a non heavily twisted (at least here in my homeland). It is one of my fav woods among the native growing here, if you have access to euonymus - try this one for HLD, works even better.

Congrats on your bow!
Title: Re: Elderberry hld, 60@28
Post by: mikekeswick on October 23, 2017, 02:11:06 am
Yes nice bow.
Elder is awesome wood.
Title: Re: Elderberry hld, 60@28
Post by: leonwood on October 23, 2017, 02:52:07 am
Thanks again for the nice replies everyone! Will try more bow designs from this wood for sure, it grows everywhere around my home so it should not be hard to get a few new staves. Easy to dry as well so I might try quickdrying one just for fun.

@Simon: Will do a fd curve and chrono next weekend and I have to get me a kitchen scale so i can get the bows mass.
Title: Re: Elderberry hld, 60@28
Post by: Pappy on October 23, 2017, 05:30:50 am
Beautiful bow in all aspects, love looking at your work. ;) :)
 Pappy
Title: Re: Elderberry hld, 60@28
Post by: leonwood on October 23, 2017, 08:31:05 am
Beautiful bow in all aspects, love looking at your work. ;) :)
 Pappy

Thankyou! That means a lot to me coming from someone who has seen so many bows over the years!
Title: Re: Elderberry hld, 60@28
Post by: DuBois on October 23, 2017, 08:42:08 am
wow, very cool. I thought it had bamboo back at first.
Title: Re: Elderberry hld, 60@28
Post by: silent sniper on October 23, 2017, 11:06:56 am
Very nice work as usual, quite a beauty! Congrats, SS.
Title: Re: Elderberry hld, 60@28
Post by: JohnL on October 23, 2017, 11:30:04 am
     Beautiful bow!  I love the look of your work - fine craftsmanship, that doesn't detract from the wild character of the stave.  Now I want some Elderberry.  I've wondered about that wood for bows.  Hadn't seen many examples of Elder bows, but wanted to try one.  I'm always looking for lesser-known tree species to try, but living on the coastal plain, we don't have the elevation that Elderberry prefers.
     Nice job!
–John
Title: Re: Elderberry hld, 60@28
Post by: leonwood on October 23, 2017, 01:55:11 pm
Thanks guys, it is funny because after hazel and ash this is the easiest wood to find around here. And i like it more than those two!
Title: Re: Elderberry hld, 60@28
Post by: Aaron H on October 24, 2017, 08:20:03 am
Excellent work, keep em coming!
Title: Re: Elderberry hld, 60@28
Post by: Weylin on October 24, 2017, 09:17:55 pm
Beautiful! Nice to see some more HLD's. You nailed it.
Title: Re: Elderberry hld, 60@28
Post by: leonwood on October 25, 2017, 01:16:47 am
Thanks again for the compliments guys, I really like working on HLD bows. This was my fifth and already started two new ones!
Title: Re: Elderberry hld, 60@28
Post by: chamookman on October 25, 2017, 03:28:43 am
Very nice ! Your tiller looked spot-on  :OK Bob
Title: Re: Elderberry hld, 60@28
Post by: mullet on October 25, 2017, 09:32:46 am
Very pretty bow. When I first looked at it I thought it was bamboo backed also. Now I think I will try one out of thick walled bamboo. Your attention to detail is amazing and it's always a pleasure looking at your bows. Keep them coming.
Title: Re: Elderberry hld, 60@28
Post by: GlisGlis on October 25, 2017, 11:11:47 am
very very nice bow. I like all of it

I got a 2014 elderberry stave around 3''
the only problem is it has too reflex
I wanted to bend it at handle without sacrifying depth (carved handle not glued up)
what method do you suggest? Is 3" too much for dry heat?
Title: Re: Elderberry hld, 60@28
Post by: Steve Milbocker on October 25, 2017, 12:52:17 pm
Another masterpiece!
Title: Re: Elderberry hld, 60@28
Post by: leonwood on October 26, 2017, 09:48:22 am
Thanks for even more compliments guys!


very very nice bow. I like all of it

I got a 2014 elderberry stave around 3''
the only problem is it has too reflex
I wanted to bend it at handle without sacrifying depth (carved handle not glued up)
what method do you suggest? Is 3" too much for dry heat?

In this case I would steam the handle for 45 minutes and bend over a log or something. You could make a nice reflex/deflex out of it! I am going to try this as well with some reflexed pieces since these are really easy to find.
Title: Re: Elderberry hld, 60@28
Post by: GlisGlis on October 27, 2017, 02:36:47 am
In this case I would steam the handle for 45 minutes and bend over a log or something. You could make a nice reflex/deflex out of it! .

Ty. I'll try this way  :OK
Title: Re: Elderberry hld, 60@28
Post by: AniKituahBowyer on December 01, 2017, 01:04:15 pm
Yep. Fantastic bow! Got my BOM vote! Great work!
Title: Re: Elderberry hld, 60@28
Post by: leonwood on December 02, 2017, 02:49:26 pm
Thank you!
Title: Re: Elderberry hld, 60@28
Post by: vinemaplebows on December 03, 2017, 11:36:18 am
Very nice!
Title: Re: Elderberry hld, 60@28
Post by: dragonman on December 05, 2017, 08:40:11 am
nice work, beautifull bow....in uk in the old days, elder was considered one of the most magical woods....fairie wood !!!
Title: Re: Elderberry hld, 60@28
Post by: wizardgoat on December 06, 2017, 11:24:12 am
Clean and crisp as usual, great looking bow Leon
Title: Re: Elderberry hld, 60@28
Post by: leonwood on December 06, 2017, 12:49:11 pm
Thanks guys!
Title: Re: Elderberry hld, 60@28
Post by: joachimM on December 07, 2017, 06:49:12 am
Leon,
What's the bow mass? I wonder with these HLDs if there's any physical advantage to the design, perhaps reduced mass for the same bow length, draw length and poundage?

Joachim
Title: Re: Elderberry hld, 60@28
Post by: leonwood on December 07, 2017, 08:42:43 am
Leon,
What's the bow mass? I wonder with these HLDs if there's any physical advantage to the design, perhaps reduced mass for the same bow length, draw length and poundage?

Joachim

Will check that when I have a new scale, my old one died and the smaller one I use for my arrows doesn't go beyond 200 grams or something.
But I assume you read Simson's thread about HLD?
Anyways, I guess that one of the main reasons this design works so well is that the hollowing out reduces mass a lot without losing to much draw weight (compared to a flat belly)
The other reason I think (and this is al speculation) is that the hollow belly essentially creates more area to withstand the compression forces, thereby reducing the chance of taking too much set. I have done six HLD bows so far and they are all my best performers.

Title: Re: Elderberry hld, 60@28
Post by: dantolin on December 08, 2017, 06:21:40 am
A beauty, man, and a beast too :D Congratulations!!!
Title: Re: Elderberry hld, 60@28
Post by: BowEd on December 08, 2017, 11:29:31 am
Congratulations on the well deserved win Leon.That's a very nice bow.
Title: Re: Elderberry hld, 60@28
Post by: joachimM on December 08, 2017, 12:59:27 pm
Don't see how I missed Simson's article in PA magazine!
Anyway, I'll read it carefully.

I know a guy who used to make PVC bows with a HLD design too, they were also faster than regular PVC bows, likely due to mass savings.
Title: Re: Elderberry hld, 60@28
Post by: DC on December 08, 2017, 01:21:38 pm
[quote author=leonwood link=topic=61803.msg869222#msg869222 The other reason I think (and this is al speculation) is that the hollow belly essentially creates more area to withstand the compression forces,
[/quote]

This is something that I can't get my head around. It seems to me that it would concentrate the compression on to the edge rather than all around. Their seems to be enough evidence that it does work so if someone could explain it to me I would be forever grateful. I have read Simons website. :D
Title: Re: Elderberry hld, 60@28
Post by: joachimM on December 09, 2017, 02:25:22 am
I have made a bunch of PVC bows as a kind of bow-making experiments and testing design principles in a more easy way than with wood, taking things to extremes.
As a result of this, theses bows very often failed at some point. When doing a post-mortem analysis, and cutting up the pipes, I could see that the most bending portions, which took the most strain, were often fretted all along the inside of the pipe's back along the entire hollow area (which is similar to the concave belly of the HLD bows).

So maybe the HLD is indeed a way to divide the stress over a broader belly area, even curved.
Title: Re: Elderberry hld, 60@28
Post by: leonwood on December 09, 2017, 03:57:34 am
[quote author=leonwood link=topic=61803.msg869222#msg869222 The other reason I think (and this is al speculation) is that the hollow belly essentially creates more area to withstand the compression forces,

This is something that I can't get my head around. It seems to me that it would concentrate the compression on to the edge rather than all around. Their seems to be enough evidence that it does work so if someone could explain it to me I would be forever grateful. I have read Simons website. :D
[/quote]

The first hld I did had this exact problem, chrysalled the edges near the fades, then on the next ones I really focussed on duplicating the crown in reverse on the belly for the first part of the tillering process. When I get the bow braced I mainly tiller the last part by making the edges thinner. This is the most important step because this enables the limb to flatten out a bit when the bow is drawn.
Title: Re: Elderberry hld, 60@28
Post by: Marc St Louis on December 09, 2017, 08:04:24 am
Lovely bow.  Well done and congrats
Title: Re: Elderberry hld, 60@28
Post by: Hawkdancer on December 09, 2017, 11:58:34 am
Nice job, good explanation of the build principles.
Hawkdancer
Title: Re: Elderberry hld, 60@28
Post by: leonwood on December 09, 2017, 02:56:42 pm
Thanks Marc and Hawkdancer!