Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: Sir Failalot on November 03, 2017, 07:46:49 am
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I am reading in this forum since a few months and finally got my hands on a few hazel trees on October 7th. I cut 4 staves, kept them at about 17 degree celsius and weighted them every 3 days. They did not loose mass since a week so i thought they might be ready now. I started working on one that was about 4.4 cm (~1 3/4") diameter in the middle. I did not bring it in rough form before drying because I did'nt want to risk cutting too much off. As you might guess, this will be my first bow.
Now to my question: I got my bow in a rough shape now and reduced the belly to a point where I can see the center of the stave. The stave is still green there. Does that mean that I should wait a little more? I dont want to risk string follow by tillering the bow in that condition.
Picture:
(https://picload.org/thumbnail/drddrapi/wp_20171103_13_59_15_pro.jpg)
https://picload.org/view/drddrapi/wp_20171103_13_59_15_pro.jpg.html
Thank you very much in advance :)
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It hasn't even been a month and it was full diameter. Now that you have it roughed out, I would wait some more and continue to monitor the weight. I have had some hazel that was dry and seasoned a year that still has a green color to it. It shouldn't matter. Wait a little more just to be sure. Cheers- Brendan
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Hi Brendan,
so you are saying that a hazel stave might need over a year before it has lost the green in the center? I read on a lot of sites that Hazel can dry very quickly (a few weeks) and be ready then. So it is not a bad thing for a hazel staff to be green in the center? (first question)
Nevertheless will I try to hold myself back. :)
I've got another stave that is beautiful but not very thick. Just 3,5 cm (1 3/8") diameter in the middle. The thing is that a hazel bow should be a flat design (or something in that way) because of the attributes of the wood. (At least that is what I read.) The diameter is a little too narrow for a flat bow, is'nt it? (second question)
My target lbs is very low. I am a target shooter and want to shoot the 300th arrow in that evening as precise as the first. That's why i am trying for a 26# @ 28". Is that diameter maybe okay for a flat bow with thar weight? (third question)
Thank you again! Really appreciating the help here :)
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It looks to me like you're getting close to the pith. Just reduce the bow a little more in thickness, so the pith won't be in the working limb, and you will be fine.
Coonst
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Good luck! Be patient, and post pictures as you go. I am just starting a first bow of hickory and will be asking advice as I go as well. The folks on this post are very experienced bowyers and will be a lot help. When you are shooting the new one, you may have change your screen name :)! Welcome to the group!
Hawkdancer
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One month? Yes, wait.
Get a straight grained board and make a board bw.
I can continue if you want.
More on my site.
http://traditionalarchery101.com
Jawge
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So many answers :))
The limbs are 2cm (~ 3/4") thick a the moment. I think I will have to reduce the thickness nevertheless. So the green part might not even be in the limbs. But maybe its an indicator for a certain wetness of the stave. I am working on "details" like the handle right now. That will keep me busy :) Let's see how the green center changes. If it can stay that way for a year, then it is not a real indicator and I can ignore it... right?
My Username is okay even after a good shooting bow. I mean there is the saying that a master failed even more than a beginner tried. ;)
Jawge do you have experience with hazel? The thing is that I do not have the money to make a board bow (no, really. Poor student here) and I am not really interested in a board bow. I want to make a historical primitive bow. :)
Thank you guys. Good luck to your bow too, Hawkdancer!
What about the thin staff and the flatdesign (my third question in post #3)?
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First off there is no problem making a bow with that wood if you treat it correctly.
First 'green' wood is a term used to describe just cut wood that is still higfh in moisture content. Green as in fresh.
The different coloured wood you are seeing in the centre of your stave is the heartwood. Look up the terms 'sapwood' and 'heartwood'. It just happens to be coloured greenish. Heartwood varies from tree to tree and there are many possible colours.
So onto how to make a bow out of your wood without having to wait forever!
You need to get it down close to bow dimensions. This is called the floor tiller stage. Leave the handle area full width and the tips about 1 inch wide. The bow is still heavy but it is starting to bend and is therefore as small as it can be to enable quicker drying. Woods thickness is the main determining factor how quickly it dries, along with the r.h. of your area and the temperature. This is useful - http://www.csgnetwork.com/emctablecalc.html Of course you can carry on using the weighing method to determine when it stops losing moisture.
Once the bow is at floor tiller check the physical weight isn't dropping quickly then put it somewhere warm. It will then be ready in a matter of a week or two. You are correct that hazel does dry quickly but remember to leave the handle full width and tips wide. I leave handle full width until the bow is first strung you can then shape the handle to match where the string wants to sit with no messing about heat correcting etc.
Good luck.
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I needed a while to manage my setup but here are a few pictures. The string nocks will be where I put the tape. The stave is the one I talked about ^^
(https://thumb.ibb.co/eX3U5w/20171008_171531_1.png) (https://ibb.co/eX3U5w) (https://thumb.ibb.co/b4tkdG/20171008_171632_1.png) (https://ibb.co/b4tkdG) (https://thumb.ibb.co/mNrSsb/20171008_171600_1_1.png) (https://ibb.co/mNrSsb)
@Mikekeswick
Thank you for the clarification. My mother tongue is not English, now I know that it's the heartwood that I am seeing ^^
You can see on the pictures how the handle looks like at the moment. I just took away the thickness as you can see. Hope that its not too far. The tips are already just 3/4" wide. :o
So if the string is not sitting right in the middle, you just put the handle in a different position? Smart, did'nt think about that.
The "bow" is not loosing weight quickly anymore so it should be okay to leave it in my appartment.
With "first strung" you mean right before pitting it in the tiller tree or when you reached brace height? I looked if the middle of the handle and the tips are in line by putting a string in the middle of the tips. That was a factor that led me to the decision that the back of the bow is where it is now. The stave was not really straight as you can see on the lower limb.
So the next step is waiting till it does'nt loose anymore weight. Let's see of I can measure any weight loss over the next days. :)
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No problem.
Yes 'first strung' means the time that you first brace the bow. At the very start you bend it with a long string. If it isn't losing lots of weight then you are probably fine to start tillering just go very steady and only bend it a small amount. Keeping it near to a heat source is the trick. At the first sign of any set (permanent deformation of the limbs) go back to drying it for a couple of days and maybe increase the temperature slightly.
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All right, then I kbiw what you mean :)
I will follow the tips and wait a little more.
Thank you all for the help!
I've got another question. When one limb of a bow has a curve, is the belly of that limb going to "lean" inti that curve? Because the force is coming directly from the imaginary line that you could draw between the tip and the handle or is'nt it? Or is the force always coming from the back of the bow?
It is hard to explain, that's why I made a quick 3D model to show what I mean.
The dimensions are just like my bow here. But to show you what I mean, I made the curve of the limb extrem and the distance from the back to the belly is 10cm (~4").
(https://thumb.ibb.co/dmY0DG/1.png) (https://ibb.co/dmY0DG) (https://thumb.ibb.co/enVQfw/2.png) (https://ibb.co/enVQfw) (https://thumb.ibb.co/mmZwnb/3.png) (https://ibb.co/mmZwnb)
So should the belly lean into the curve or should it be straight and ignore it?
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First draw a 'centre' line following the grain along the highest part of the crown.
Mark width of the limb either side of this line. Remove wood down to this line.
You will now have sides to the stave.
Mark thickness on these sides measuring from where the back becomes the side (don't try to include the crown).
Always keep thicknesses the same on each side of the limb.
If the back curves or has any dips the belly will follow this if you follow the above method.
Keep the belly square to the back.
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Well, then I've got a problem..
(https://thumb.ibb.co/bCmDHb/WP_20171105_16_48_41_Pro.jpg) (https://ibb.co/bCmDHb)
The stave was relative small in diameter. That means that I had to take the whole diameter as the whidest part and taper it to the tips. The crown goes therefore to the middle of the bow at the handle (especially at the dent there on the photo)...
(https://thumb.ibb.co/ePu0xb/WP_20171105_16_49_06_Pro.jpg) (https://ibb.co/ePu0xb)
...but the crown is just small at the tips, because it is just the highest part of the stave there.
(https://thumb.ibb.co/gj9pqw/WP_20171105_16_51_35_Pro.jpg) (https://ibb.co/gj9pqw)
If I would take for example 1/2 inch of where the back becomes the side, then the thickness of the bow will very a lot from start of limb to tip, but a pyramid should have about the same thickness across the whole limb I thought?
If the diameter of the stave /tree would have been bigger, then of course the method u described would be the easiest one.
...or am I not getting something here?
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Sir, that's ok. Jawge
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Good to hear, Jawge!
So, should the back be following the curve like in my 3d model or should it stay perfectly horizontal despite the force coming from the side then? ^^
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Well I kinda guess that it's a dumb question and to be honest, I have never seen a belly lean into the curve like that on photos of character bows. ^^
It's just the tbeory behind it that's interesting me.
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I am currently shaping the bow to get it on the tiller tree. There is a region that is worrying me.
(https://thumb.ibb.co/jaAFYG/WP_20171108_14_51_30_Pro.jpg) (https://ibb.co/jaAFYG) (https://thumb.ibb.co/iaz9tG/WP_20171108_14_51_36_Pro.jpg) (https://ibb.co/iaz9tG)
There is a branch running across the belly. Working there is a pain. It's very dry and huge splitters are coming of. Now there is that big chunk that jumped off that is just as deep as it is allowed to be. I am kinda anxious to work there. Any tips? Should i leave the belly thicker there?
I did not expect that area to be that hard.
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Use a rasp in that area to smooth it out.
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Got it down. Was a lot of work, I really should get a better rasp. I used sand paper I had in the end. I think it is ready for the long string now. I will prepare a grid for my tiller "tree" to help me see the bends better. I am going for a 0/0 tiller so that will help me.
I will keep you all updated and will quite sure need a few advises along the way ^^
Thanks for the ongoing support here :)
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One of the main problems with small diameter staves is if a small branch runs across the belly. It is always best to try and avoid any knots on the side of small staves.
Hopefully as you work it further you will get 'under' that section. The grain will always be a bit funky in that area and will want to tear out with edged tools so only use a rasp/files in that area.
Hazel is great wood when it is clean and free of knots but it will chrysal quickly if a knotty area isn't worked correctly. When there is a knot on the belly you need to allow extra width so there is the same amount of clean wood as above and below it. If a knot was 1/8th diameter then I would allow an extra 3/16ths width around it (follow the grain on the back). Don't leave these areas thicker/stiff it just makes the problem worse.
Good luck :)
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When I read that branches should be in the middle of the back if they are not avoidable, I did not get why.. now I know. But u gotta see it for yourself if nobody is telling you the reason. It's logical, but.. yeah ^^ ;D
When cutting that stave it looked so straight. Seems like everything is relative. I do neither have the space, nor the equipment to bend a stave so I had no choice. The back needed to be where it is now. I too hope that I will get 'under' the branch :)
Do u guys have a really rough rasp for areas like that? Ive got a typical one here and as I said.. it takes a while.
I did allow extra width at the branches. Its everything the stave had to offer. I hope it will not break there. If so.. there is one good stave left, one thin (the one in the photo on page one) and one that needs bending. So i've got at least 2 more tries. But of course I am doing my best to use that one here :)
Good advice with the thickness in these sections. I was about to ask that :D
Anyway I will send pictures soon!
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A farriers rasp.
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I will have a look for such a rasp. Looks perfect >:D
Here are pictures of the bow:
(https://thumb.ibb.co/ecTfkw/WP_20171109_22_04_32_Pro.jpg) (https://ibb.co/ecTfkw) (https://thumb.ibb.co/cGRY5w/WP_20171109_22_05_25_Pro.jpg) (https://ibb.co/cGRY5w) (https://thumb.ibb.co/ncdfkw/WP_20171109_22_05_14_Pro.jpg) (https://ibb.co/ncdfkw)
(https://thumb.ibb.co/d5k7Fw/WP_20171109_22_06_06_Pro.jpg) (https://ibb.co/d5k7Fw) (https://thumb.ibb.co/icVRQw/WP_20171109_22_06_30_Pro.jpg) (https://ibb.co/icVRQw) (https://thumb.ibb.co/e2EmQw/WP_20171109_22_06_39_Pro.jpg) (https://ibb.co/e2EmQw)
One limb has more reflex than the other (if you can call that reflex) how should I tiller?
Should the limbs be in the same horizontal position when the bow is fully drawn or should tbe difference stay as it is?
Is it even possible to make a bow without hand shock without bending the limbs to make them even?
I googled the problem but did not find a solution.
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I don’t know how well that wood steam or heat bends, but I would try to Match the reflex if it were mine. But if it were my first, I’d probably try to make it dead straight as possible before tillering. That much difference in side profile would give me fits, and I’d think it’d be hard to balance it. There are folks on here that could do it no problem, I couldn’t at the skill level I’m at now.
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Seems like Hazel is bendable with steam. I will try to get it straight. :)
But I am kinda tempted to let the one limb kinda snaky when looking down on the back. I think it adds character.
I will post pictures. Maybe I can do that tonight.
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I tried steam bending that limb, but it did completely nothing. I put it above a pot with water, and sealed it with aluminium foil. When the water was cooking, I waited 30 minutes, took the bow of and tried to bend it. It felt a bit more elastic but the small bend I was able to do just went away.
Possible reasons:
1. The steam was able to left the foil and pot a bit
2. 30 minutes was not enough
3. The bow was still too stick.
You can see pictures of the section I tried to bend down there. It is 1,5 cm thick (3/5 in) now, but was a little thicker when I tried to bend it yesterday. I am quite sure that was the reason but I dont want to take too much off. :o
Can anybody with experience tell me something about my 3 possible reasons?
Is there a problem with trying to steam bend a section too often because of it getting too dry?
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For that thickness your steam time should be 45 min. Don't seal it in too tight. There should be a good flow of steam.
You don't say how you bent it, over your knee, with clamps and a form, etc. Clamps and a form is the way to go.
You didn't say how long you held it bent. It should be bent a bit farther than you want and left at least until it is cold, preferably overnight.