Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: DC on November 10, 2017, 12:47:08 pm
-
Because Ocean Spray staves seem to come in that grey area between stave and billet(too long for a billet and to short for a bow) I've "V" jointed 3-4" long tips on a couple just to stretch them out a bit. So far I've just used recurve tips. They seem to be safe so I started to think a little more about them. Just using straight(no recurve) tips I can get a longer draw length just because of the limb length but because you can't bend a "V" joint(at least not much) I don't gain any working limb. I'm wondering how much I'm gaining. I'm thinking that the longer unbending tip is kind of Molle like which is arguably a good thing but I don't think I can thin the tips much under 1/2" wide with the "V" joint in there so that means heavier tips. Any thoughts? Thanks
-
(-P
-
Did I just open another can'o'worms? I've not seen many glue on tips so I thought it was relatively rare.
-
Wow, okay, I've got a pair of 32" Osage billets that W spliced would make a 60" stave. I prefer 64"+ because I have a long draw. My plan was to extend the bow with a handle section of Cypress, and the Osage limbs V joined either side, and maybe introducing a little reflex.
I could do both!
How long would you make the V joint? If the tips were longer, you could thin outside the V joint. With say a bound joint of say 1/2" to 0 over 2", and a further 6" beyond, you would be sacrificing 2" of the "good stuff" that can no longer work, gain a little mass in the bound joint, but also gain 6" static tips that you could thin right down, dependant on type of wood (something of a contrasting colour would look nice too), that would deliver leverage and draw advantages.
I don't know about you, but I'm keen to try this myself, the next time I have access to a premium, but too short, billet or stave.
Thanks mate!
-
Did I just open another can'o'worms? I've not seen many glue on tips so I thought it was relatively rare.
It's easy enough to do. People just couldn't be bothered with tip splicing apparently. Straight tips will gain you more length than recurves with less stress.
-
Korey- I made my "V" joints 2 1/2-3" long by 1/2" wide. I only need a couple of inches on each end. I want to make the tip as short as possible so that the splice is not in the working portion. There would be no working limb outside the splice. I didn't bind my joints. It's fairly easy to get a good joint with a "V" joint. I used West Systems epoxy.
Straight tips will gain you more length than recurves with less stress.
Thanks Pat, that helps
-
ok this does not seem to be too dangerous :)so I will chime in,,,
I think its a great idea, and very useful,, better than overstraining the bow to accomodate a long draw,,
If tillered with the tip in mind should shoot great,,,maybe leave the bow a bit wider,, not pyramid, ,just kidding,, but leave it wide and side tiller if needed,,pyramidish,, (SH)
-
This is something I have been thinking more and more about getting into. I have access to a lot of plum and honey suckle that is a bit too short for bow, Splicing in a handle and tips would give me access to a lot more wood and it kind of looks like fun. I am not fond of applying sinew but I think it might be worth the trouble.
-
This is something I have been thinking more and more about getting into. I have access to a lot of plum and honey suckle that is a bit too short for bow, Splicing in a handle and tips would give me access to a lot more wood and it kind of looks like fun. I am not fond of applying sinew but I think it might be worth the trouble.
Before you know it you'll be making hornless Mongolian style sinew backed bows and extolling their virtues. ;)
-
ohh its getting dangerious again,, (--)
-
Good project and ocean spray is some top notch wood.I'd look at it this way DC.How much working limb can you get along with?From fades to base of V joint.For a 28" draw length if that's what you want 18" per limb will more than get you there.Even less.The extended length will make the bow shoot smoother and sweeter with the lower string angles.Lower stress as Pat M said using straight tipped limbs if those nasty pin knots are too frequent.
-
Just finished gluing them on. Left the bark on the tip inserts.
-
That ought to be cool leaving the bark on.If a person thinks about it a 64" bow is totally doable starting from a 52" stave.8" stiff handle/two 8" stiiff tips =24".You have 40" left to work with.After tip grooves 1/2" in your left with 39".That's 19.5" per working limb.
Personally I and many others have made bows from staves that long with those static or close to stiff parts and those working limbs.
-
This is something I have been thinking more and more about getting into. I have access to a lot of plum and honey suckle that is a bit too short for bow, Splicing in a handle and tips would give me access to a lot more wood and it kind of looks like fun. I am not fond of applying sinew but I think it might be worth the trouble.
Before you know it you'll be making hornless Mongolian style sinew backed bows and extolling their virtues. ;)
Exactly what I had in mind minus about 12" reflex and adding several inches in length
-
Just finished gluing them on. Left the bark on the tip inserts.
I took the clamps off this morning and gave it a floor tiller bend. At this point the tips are about 3.5" long. It's amazing how easy it bends compared to yesterday. Yesterday it felt like I had a lot of work yet to get it to the brace point, with the new tips it feels like it's ready to brace. Leverage is amazing. I'll be shortening them a bit I think
-
Just finished gluing them on. Left the bark on the tip inserts.
I took the clamps off this morning and gave it a floor tiller bend. At this point the tips are about 3.5" long. It's amazing how easy it bends compared to yesterday. Yesterday it felt like I had a lot of work yet to get it to the brace point, with the new tips it feels like it's ready to brace. Leverage is amazing. I'll be shortening them a bit I think
This is a great idea for making more staves useable.
The leverage thing is good :) It means you are storing more energy during the draw. Keeps your tips light and its thumbs up.
-
Keeps your tips light and its thumbs up.
That's the crux of this whole thing. That "V" joint is right where a guy would want to remove weight and as you reduce the width the "V" joint gets shorter and shorter. I'm thinking I should have started with a deeper "V". I should have made up my mind how wide the finished joint was going to be before I started. Right now it's 1/2" wide and 2 1/2" long. If I reduce it to 3/8" wide it will be 2" long. Iffy I think. I may re-do it. I'll think on it.
-
I think if you wrap it you can do it,, )P(
-
The key is to start your v joint very narrow so that you are not later reducing width and eating away the extremities of the V.
-
Yeah, I wish I'd thought of that first. ;D
-
Korey- I made my "V" joints 2 1/2-3" long by 1/2" wide. I only need a couple of inches on each end. I want to make the tip as short as possible so that the splice is not in the working portion. There would be no working limb outside the splice. I didn't bind my joints. It's fairly easy to get a good joint with a "V" joint. I used West Systems epoxy.
Straight tips will gain you more length than recurves with less stress.
Thanks Pat, that helps
I think I would bind mine anyways. I use all natural materials on my bows. Glues ,strings and finishes included. I use gelatine glue for just about everything.
By putting longer tips on and thinning them right down, the extra leverage would offset the extra mass of the binding a little...... in theory?
-
Don't worry about the v - splice if it is well done it won't be a problem. Longer splice = less working limb so you will just end up chasing your tail. Width isn't a problem if you have the thickness to keep it stiffish.
-
By putting longer tips on and thinning them right down, the extra leverage would offset the extra mass of the binding a little...... in theory?
I've thought long and hard about this( I just can't help it PD). Leverage is a double edged sword. You may get extra speed with more leverage but you lose power. If you lose power(draw weight) you lose arrow speed. You could maintain draw weight as you increase limb length by gluing a veneer on the belly but that would increase the limb weight and cost you speed again. This is one of those cases of when you do something you gain a little and lose a little at the same time. Unless you have hard data of the gains and losses you really don't know where you end up. I'm thinking it boils down to a strain/limb weight thing. The more you can strain the lightest limb, the faster your arrow will be. Also since this is a "system" you have to include the arrow weight in all your figuring.
In all I don't think it's something that can be sorted in your recliner ;D ;D ;D
-
I've never even thought about adding tips to a bow stave. I guess I've been lucky to have had plenty of bow staves. I've only done a few spliced billets.
-
When I first started the idea of GLUING a bow together scared the crap out of me. My inner cheapness finally got the better of me and rather than throw out good Yew I tried splicing. It worked and after a bit I could bring them to full draw without cowering. Next I was trying to put big recurves on an OS bow. I just couldn't bend them without breaking them so I glued some on. So here I am. Making short staves a little longer. I don't think I want to sneak them out more than an inch or so though.