Primitive Archer

Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: Stick Bender on November 11, 2017, 12:08:22 am

Title: Holding beyond brace
Post by: Stick Bender on November 11, 2017, 12:08:22 am
I have been looking around other sites lately and have seen a lot of pics with bows pulled to say 20 in. Or so and held there for work, I have always been paranoid to pull a self bow more then a few seconds beyound brace for fear of taking set , what's your thoughts on hold times ?
Title: Re: Holding beyound brace
Post by: chamookman on November 11, 2017, 12:25:27 am
I've always thought the same thing, but I suppose if it's not pulled beyond the intended draw weight and not left that TOO long - no fowl . My .02 - Bob.
Title: Re: Holding beyound brace
Post by: Del the cat on November 11, 2017, 12:30:37 am
I'll occasionally work on a braced bow, but I don't leave 'em part drawn for more than a few second while I look at 'em.
That's the main reason I use video, it allows you to study it at all points in the draw without holding the bow there, you can also see it moving.
Mind I do pull 'em to full target weight as I progress.
Some times I need the winch on warbows and i don't like it as they come back slow (very nerve wracking), I try to let 'em back down ASAP.
Del
Title: Re: Holding beyound brace
Post by: Stick Bender on November 11, 2017, 01:08:19 am
 I agree on the video I used it on the last 2 bows a great help plus you can send to friends for scrutiny !  or stop and study .
Title: Re: Holding beyound brace
Post by: bushboy on November 11, 2017, 01:33:34 am
Yes it makes me cringe!
Title: Re: Holding beyound brace
Post by: Badger on November 11, 2017, 04:03:23 am
      I need to get my video completed, I hold them at very close to full draw for almost a minute at a time during tillering and I don't pick up any extra set because the bows are built pretty low stress from the beginning. I wouldn't try that on some of my bows from just a few years ago. Maybe slightly overbuilt but they still perform well and the confidence is not an issue which means a lot to me.
Title: Re: Holding beyound brace
Post by: bradsmith2010 on November 11, 2017, 09:17:13 am
most the time I think its a bad idea,, why strain the bow,,, I am not surprised Badgers bows can take it for a minute, but I dont think most bows could,,without inducing more set
Title: Re: Holding beyound brace
Post by: George Tsoukalas on November 11, 2017, 10:17:12 am
I sometimes work on a braced bow but never on a bow pulled to full draw.
I don't see the purpose.
I've seen it done.
But I've seen and heard a lot of these things these days that I don't agree with. :)
Jawge
Title: Re: Holding beyound brace
Post by: Badger on November 11, 2017, 10:56:18 am
Jawge, I don't work on it drawn, I just mark it and study it a bit. I don't go do that at full draw, I back off to about 26"
Title: Re: Holding beyond brace
Post by: koreybear on November 11, 2017, 07:26:21 pm
I used to tiller to full draw on the tree, as a complete noob, based on a video I saw on youtube. I think it was a Rudder Bows video. I never had a bow explode on me, but up to 2" set was standard.

I prefer to consider myself an advanced noob now.........
Title: Re: Holding beyond brace
Post by: Eric Krewson on November 12, 2017, 04:29:03 am
I peg a bow partially drawn on my tree for about 30 seconds while I make gizmo checks. I start at less than brace on the long string and proceed to 20" but no further. I don't scrape on a bow at anything higher than brace, no need to.

Anything that changes during shoot in and needs to be adjusted in will show with a gizmo check at 20".
Title: Re: Holding beyond brace
Post by: George Tsoukalas on November 12, 2017, 04:31:51 am
Steve, whatever works for you. I work on them at brace and that's it. That's when the bow nears full draw and work is needed at the fades or close to that area.

I've seen that practice on videos too.

I once accidentally nipped the string near the tips  and had like 2 strands left.

Anyway, I've used a rope and pulley since the early 90's.

Jawge
Title: Re: Holding beyond brace
Post by: Pat B on November 12, 2017, 09:35:58 am
I normally never hold a bow for any time beyond brace. There are occasions when I have a very wonky stave that I will hold it on the tiller stick out to about 14" so I can use a Gizmo on it but that is only with difficult staves.
Title: Re: Holding beyond brace
Post by: Badger on November 12, 2017, 10:04:09 am
  The only reason I have been holding mine a bit longer lately is really kind of an experiment. I just want to see if it causes extra set when the bow should be designed with less stress from the start. I hate it when a bow settles in after a few weeks of shooting. So far it seems not to have any negative affect unless I am a bit overstressed anyway.
Title: Re: Holding beyond brace
Post by: Stick Bender on November 12, 2017, 10:11:19 am
 I agree with many here I don't see any reason for it I have worked hard to get to the point where I can make a bow that holds reflex I couldn't see risking taking set that way when there are other paths to tiller it ,the interesting thing is you never see unstrung profiles of bows made like that in the vids or pics, I say I never hold more then a few seconds but when I'm on the tree in reality I don't hold at all I pull to my mark and as soon as I hit it  I'm releasing pressure back down , I do it in a fluid motion !
Title: Re: Holding beyond brace
Post by: Badger on November 12, 2017, 11:54:47 am
  I have always tended to snap shoot and only touch full draw on the tiller tree until the last couple of years when I became more interested in the no set tillering methods. I would prefer to be able to pull to a full anchor and hold with full confidence as long as I need to hold just as I would do on a glass bow. I am finding if bows are long enough and wide enough to accommodate the weight and draw I am asking they can do that. Obviously we don't have to do that but it is nice to have that extra confidence.
Title: Re: Holding beyond brace
Post by: bradsmith2010 on November 12, 2017, 12:22:49 pm
I think it is great to know where the limit is,, instead of guessing,, (--)
Title: Re: Holding beyond brace
Post by: Marc St Louis on November 12, 2017, 01:42:10 pm
I scrape on a braced bow all the time.  I also do some scraping on a bow pulled to maybe 12" of draw when I need to work on the outer limbs, I'll do that to get the string out of the way on recurves.  I will hold a bow at full draw for several seconds while tillering but not minutes 
Title: Re: Holding beyond brace
Post by: burchett.donald on November 12, 2017, 04:22:12 pm
  I don't think it's necessary...Although I have done it a few times with a tiller stick to change the string angle to clear my card scraper near the outers on short bendy's...I wouldn't want to pull that far unless it was tillered to that point...
                                                                                                                                        Don
Title: Re: Holding beyond brace
Post by: Stickhead on November 13, 2017, 05:08:23 am
I've got a wall-mounted tiller tree that I build onto a whiteboard.  That way, I can pull it to a given length, quickly trace the curve on the whiteboard, and get it back off the tree within a few seconds.  Then, I can make measurements and analyze the heck out of the curve without over-stressing the bow.
Title: Re: Holding beyond brace
Post by: BowEd on November 13, 2017, 08:12:13 am
I've caught myself holding a bow at full draw on the tree to evaluate.Maybe a good 10 seconds or so I guess.Does'nt seem to hurt it any.Tillered & tweaked braced and unbraced before depending on how much weight reduction I need to do.
Many things can bring set I guess.This may be an off set side note story but I had a fella I made a bow for with a proclaimed 30" draw & tillered it to that draw.He did'nt draw any farther than 28" really.Made him a 68" osage bow.I own a few almost exactly the same.Months later I saw his bow and it had taken some set while mine had'nt and that his brace height was pretty high I thought.Like 8" for sure.I asked him if that was the height he normally braced it.He said yes a fistmele and showed me his.Most guys fistmele is more then these flat bows need to be braced.I said that's ELB long war bow jargon.I could be wrong about that though.These flat bows don't need that height.7" is more than plenty.String to the back that is.It should be the height that still shoots the arrow cleanly.
Title: Re: Holding beyond brace
Post by: bradsmith2010 on November 13, 2017, 08:23:38 am
I am pretty sure Tim Baker said to brace the bow 1 inch higher,, is the same stress as drawing it 2 more inches,,
Title: Re: Holding beyond brace
Post by: BowEd on November 13, 2017, 08:33:03 am
Good point Brad.I don't doubt that to be true.No matter what a person can't deny that wood has a memory.I guess as long as the memory implantment[is that a word..sounds good though....lol] is'nt too terribly long it's ok....lol.
Title: Re: Holding beyond brace
Post by: PEARL DRUMS/PEARLY/PD/DRUMS on November 13, 2017, 08:37:46 am
In my opinion the hyper-sensitive "set" thing some of us suffer from has cost us a lot of our accuracy.  Short drawing and snap shooting so we don't cause set. It has to start somewhere and that's a good place.
Title: Re: Holding beyond brace
Post by: DC on November 13, 2017, 08:52:58 am
I am pretty sure Tim Baker said to brace the bow 1 inch higher,, is the same stress as drawing it 2 more inches,,

I've been thinking about this kind of stuff lately. I wonder if he meant just stress from various sources or if he meant the bow actually bends that much tighter. I find this kind of stuff is very difficult to get a mental picture of and usually have to make a drawing or a model to take actual measurements from.
Title: Re: Holding beyond brace
Post by: PEARL DRUMS/PEARLY/PD/DRUMS on November 13, 2017, 09:00:05 am
I've seen a TON of over braced bows and they are just fine. Draw a bow 2" beyond its intended draw and many will blow up. 
Title: Re: Holding beyond brace
Post by: bradsmith2010 on November 13, 2017, 09:12:41 am
an overbraced bow is still under more stress,, even if it can take it,, really not good for the bow,,
if designed to be braced high no problem,,Jim Hamm used to shoot his braced high, but made it long to compensate,, he did not short draw ,, hit about 29 inches of draw with high brace,, I cant do it,,makes me snap shoot and short draw if its braced high,,, :)

DC,, it was my understanding that when you shorten the string to make the brace higher,, it will pull the tips further at a given draw,,
I am sure someone else can explain it more clearly, ,pretty sure it is in volumn 1
Title: Re: Holding beyond brace
Post by: DC on November 13, 2017, 09:34:18 am
The thing we should be thinking about is the relationship between brace height and bow length. To have the same "brace height" effects a 36" bow should have half the brace height of a 72" bow. Or maybe not, my thinking may be off there but you should get my drift. In order to have the same stresses a longer bow will need a higher brace height. Unfortunately brace height is usually set for physical reasons, fletch clearance, wrist slapping or arrow flight. I think this means that shorter bows are usually under more stress at brace than a long bow. Maybe one of the reasons long bows are more durable.
Title: Re: Holding beyond brace
Post by: bradsmith2010 on November 13, 2017, 09:49:10 am
great point, why didnt I think of that,,, (--)
Title: Re: Holding beyond brace
Post by: DC on November 13, 2017, 10:04:08 am
Cause I'm smarter ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D not
Title: Re: Holding beyond brace
Post by: PEARL DRUMS/PEARLY/PD/DRUMS on November 13, 2017, 10:12:18 am
Draw a normally braced bow 2" and hold it. Do you really suppose that hurts that bow anything like drawing 2" past its design full draw? Not only that but a bow drawn 28" is drawn 28" regardless of where it started, i.e 7" brace, 9" brace or 10" brace. 
Title: Re: Holding beyond brace
Post by: DC on November 13, 2017, 10:50:20 am
If we are talking one bow. Shorten the string by 1". That will raise the brace height by about 2". Now when you draw the bow, remember that the string is shorter, you will bend the bow more to reach a 28" draw. At least that's the way I see it :)
Title: Re: Holding beyond brace
Post by: Pat B on November 13, 2017, 11:08:21 am
I think a 28" draw is a 28" draw no matter what the brace height is.
Title: Re: Holding beyond brace
Post by: PEARL DRUMS/PEARLY/PD/DRUMS on November 13, 2017, 11:12:53 am
I think so, but cant prove anything.
Title: Re: Holding beyond brace
Post by: bradsmith2010 on November 13, 2017, 11:14:27 am
me too, I cant prove it either,,  (-P
Title: Re: Holding beyond brace
Post by: Danzn Bar on November 13, 2017, 11:37:21 am
Come on you guys....
Brace height to a point.  Brace height is a function of string length.
And that's all I have to say  about that.
DBar
Title: Re: Holding beyond brace
Post by: Stick Bender on November 13, 2017, 12:30:59 pm
I'm glad brace height came up I came here after shooting traditional FG bows for a lot of years and made several self bows before somebody let me know about the lower brace height  probably caused undo set on those bows ,now I don't brace a bow any farther then 7 in. From the back , fortunately I had all ready been shooting Fred Asbell's system so the hold time wasn't a issue , I release as soon as hit anchor.
Title: Re: Holding beyond brace
Post by: Hrothgar on November 15, 2017, 04:45:17 am
Interesting discussion,. Not being a physicist I don't know how to go about proving this, but the draw weight can't be the same on a bow braced 7" then pulled (to any length) versus a bow braced 1" and pulled. Of course I'm still trying to figure out arrow flex and oscillation.
Title: Re: Holding beyond brace
Post by: Badger on November 15, 2017, 04:48:32 am
Interesting discussion,. Not being a physicist I don't know to go about proving this, but the draw weight can't be the same on a bow braced 7" then pulled (to any length) versus a bow braced 1" and pulled. Of course I'm still trying to figure out arrow flex and oscillation.

  Take a finished bow and put a long string on it. let the long string hang loose a few inches. Now draw it to 28" on your tiller tree and take a reading. Now brace the bow to a normal brace height and draw it to the same 28" point. You will be surprised at how close they are.
Title: Re: Holding beyond brace
Post by: PEARL DRUMS/PEARLY/PD/DRUMS on November 15, 2017, 08:53:10 am
I think that some folks may get string tension at brace confused with total drawn weight. Perhaps assuming that a higher brace height/string tension will equate to a higher total draw weight.
Title: Re: Holding beyond brace
Post by: bradsmith2010 on November 15, 2017, 01:04:49 pm
this if from the design chapter in volume 1

a low strung bow stores more energy
a bow braced at 4 inches, string travels 24 inches
a bow braced at 7 inches,string travels 21 inches
a high strung bow is more strained,tips in this case are advanced three inches farther,, causing considerably more bend,therefore,limbstrain,,

thats just what is says,, I dont make this stuff up,, Im not that smart,, )P(  page 47
Title: Re: Holding beyond brace
Post by: Badger on November 15, 2017, 01:19:13 pm
this if from the design chapter in volume 1

a low strung bow stores more energy
a bow braced at 4 inches, string travels 24 inches
a bow braced at 7 inches,string travels 21 inches
a high strung bow is more strained,tips in this case are advanced three inches farther,, causing considerably more bend,therefore,limbstrain,,

thats just what is says,, I dont make this stuff up,, Im not that smart,, )P(  page 47

   Something that would be cool to try sometime is just draw some lines on a board. Draw the bow braced at 4" and then draw the bow braced at say 7" and see how much further the limbs actually travel. I guess you could do it with math but this seems like it would make it more clear. I have shot through a chrono using a high and low brace and didn't see any difference.
Title: Re: Holding beyond brace
Post by: DC on November 15, 2017, 01:55:56 pm
At brace with the string straight the difference between 4" and 7" brace the tips move 3". As log as the string is straight it's one for one. When you draw the bow and the string is no longer straight the tip movement gets less and less. Up in the 26-28" draw the tips move about half as much as the string(at the arrow). I made a bamboo test bow to try out this kind of stuff. Now I'm going to have to tiller it properly so it doesn't look like a yumi.
Title: Re: Holding beyond brace
Post by: mikekeswick on November 16, 2017, 01:04:29 pm
A shorter string makes the limbs bend not just further to give the higher brace height but in a tighter arc. Shorter 'powerstroke' as well but I've never actually tested different brace heights through the chrono.
Title: Re: Holding beyond brace
Post by: Marc St Louis on November 16, 2017, 03:23:21 pm
Never thought of it that way but I have to admit that Don's theory of the shorter string/higher brace height pulling the bow's limbs in a tighter arc makes sense.  Not sure how much difference that would make though, probably a bit on the draw-weight.  The power-stoke should remain the same though
Title: Re: Holding beyond brace
Post by: Badger on November 16, 2017, 03:49:44 pm
  A string with a 4" brace height is only about 1" longer than a string with a 7" brace height. It doesn't make much difference in draw weight and I suspect not much difference in strain.
Title: Re: Holding beyond brace
Post by: Danzn Bar on November 17, 2017, 02:13:01 pm
  A string with a 4" brace height is only about 1" longer than a string with a 7" brace height. It doesn't make much difference in draw weight and I suspect not much difference in strain.
If that was the case then tillering with a "long" string is no difference with a shorter string.????? I'm confused.....
Title: Re: Holding beyond brace
Post by: Badger on November 17, 2017, 03:30:42 pm
  A string with a 4" brace height is only about 1" longer than a string with a 7" brace height. It doesn't make much difference in draw weight and I suspect not much difference in strain.
If that was the case then tillering with a "long" string is no difference with a shorter string.????? I'm confused.....

   If I have a long string hanging down about 6" on the tiller tree loose and it reads 50#@24", I can brace that same bow to a 6" brace height and it will read almost exactly the same thing at 24"
Title: Re: Holding beyond brace
Post by: Danzn Bar on November 17, 2017, 03:41:50 pm
Hummmmm..... Wow ...I guess I need to pay more attention to the weight (#) when I'm tillering bow.
DBar
Title: Re: Holding beyond brace
Post by: Badger on November 17, 2017, 03:43:07 pm
      I leave it on the long string now till about 24" then go to full brace.
Title: Re: Holding beyond brace
Post by: willie on November 17, 2017, 03:56:11 pm
the spreadsheet I use sometimes allows you to set a brace height. at a typical level of strain on a 63" red oak bendy handle

6.5 in brace allows you to draw to 27.5 inches
7.5 in brace  only allows you to draw to 26.75 inches ....to get to the same strain.
Title: Re: Holding beyond brace
Post by: DC on November 17, 2017, 04:01:48 pm
   If I have a long string hanging down about 6" on the tiller tree loose and it reads 50#@24", I can brace that same bow to a 6" brace height and it will read almost exactly the same thing at 24"

I'm looking at this and see the 6" droop and the 6" brace. I'll bet that's not a coincidence :D
Title: Re: Holding beyond brace
Post by: Danzn Bar on November 17, 2017, 04:18:45 pm
  A string with a 4" brace height is only about 1" longer than a string with a 7" brace height. It doesn't make much difference in draw weight and I suspect not much difference in strain.
I floor tiller to brace is why I guess I have never seen this..............
DBar
Title: Re: Holding beyond brace
Post by: Danzn Bar on November 17, 2017, 04:38:53 pm
Steve,
The more I think about this we/I'm not comparing apples to apples I have been thinking of tillering a bow and your examples are of a finished /tillered bow. could that be the difference?
DBar
Title: Re: Holding beyond brace
Post by: Badger on November 17, 2017, 04:39:19 pm
    Most of your draw weight that registers is because of string angle, only a small fraction of it is because the wood is getting harder to bend.
Title: Re: Holding beyond brace
Post by: Badger on November 17, 2017, 04:40:25 pm
Steve,
The more I think about this we/I'm not comparing apples to apples I have been thinking of tillering a bow and your examples are of a finished /tillered bow. could that be the difference?
DBar

   I do them all the time, just finished one a couple of hours ago. They read about the same braced as they do with a loose string.
Title: Re: Holding beyond brace
Post by: bradsmith2010 on November 17, 2017, 05:32:39 pm
I have seen the long string register about the same as braced, I have tested this just to see,,
when comparing braced to braced,, I see a difference,  my scale will register a difference,, I have not tried comparingf something extreme,, like for example,, 2 inches of brace compared to 10 inches of  brace, I think that would be interesting,,well its all interesting to me,, :) you know your life is a bit boring when brace hieghts are really interesting to you,, :NN
Title: Re: Holding beyond brace
Post by: willie on November 17, 2017, 06:03:55 pm
Steve,
The more I think about this we/I'm not comparing apples to apples I have been thinking of tillering a bow and your examples are of a finished /tillered bow. could that be the difference?
DBar
DB, are you referring to the weight difference @ xx" draw length, when you first get to it during tillering, and the weight at that same draw length when the bow is finished? In other words what you "lost" while tillering?