Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Around the Campfire => Topic started by: Zuma on November 19, 2017, 12:39:03 pm
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Now that I have some hides pressure washed and being de- haired in the ash soup,
I need some fleshing tool advice. Can I grind one out of soft steel? Or use a diamond
grinder on say a lawnmower blade? Thanks Zuma
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Big serving spoon with a single bevel filed from the back works well.
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Pappy's got some he just made.
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Zuma not sure if it's what your looking for, but what I use is a thin steel "cup". It's actually a container that rings for a engine rebuild where shipped in. It's really not sharp, it just has a square edge. I misplaced it one year and made one from a chunk of four inch exhaust pipe.
Bjrogg
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Grind the teeth off of a circular saw blade. Cut in half. Cut a 2" dowel ( or broom handle or piece of antler) to length to match the width of the blade. Split center of dowel, broom handle, antler to use as handle of saw blade. Glue to saw blade. Leave the rounded edge of the saw blade as ground. It will have 2 sharp edges on both sides from the grinding. Works great for fleshing and dehairing. The tool looks like an ulu but isn't sharpened like a knife. Just ground flat 90* to the blade.
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Thanks a lot Morgan. I can see that working.
Thank you also Pat Buuuut I need one now, >:D
It seems to me that some push and some pull the knife
Also is a fleshing knife supposed to be flat or curved, chiseled edge
or bifacial (center edged)? Sharp as possible or somewhat dull?
You folks rock when we need help
Zuma
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Wooah BJ thanks
It seems like you are using a tin can with no bottom but made of steel and a bit thicker.
How do you hold it? You must have to pull it towards you?
Thanks jimmi would my drawing work?
Second drawing is just for reference
Zuma
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Yep. Got the right idea. The ones I have made look like an ulu but are not sharpened to a knife blade edge. Just left with the saw teeth ground off. Pull the blade towards you. Works great on a fleshing beam (log) or hide stretched, either one.
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Don, first off I am going to assume that you are wet scraping vs dry scraping. Pappy dry scrapes and a different tool is used, Most fleshing knives are slightly curved and have a sharp side and a dull side. The sharp side is used for shaving gristle around the head of coon and also for heavy gristle on beaver, as soon as you get past gristle dull side is used to push fat and bits of meat from hides. For dehairing and graining wet hides you need and edge that is dull but must have an edge, you will pushing into your swelled hide hard but not cutting or shaving, this done on a fleshing beam. My personal set up for graining hide is a pc of 6 inch pvc slid over my fleshing beam. The pvc pipe has a much steeper radius than my fleshing beam so when I am graining I am taking off narrower strips of hair and grain. Graining is much harder than fleshing so I am pushing much less surface. Now to really confuse you, some people set there fleshing beam up so they are pulling instead of pushing.. Next every fleshing knife that have ever seen is a single bevel edge some are straight and some are curved blades. For a home made fleshing knife I would get a flat pc of steel about 12" X 1-1/2 and put a single bevel on it and put some rubber garden hose for handles. Rig your beam up level or down hill angle , rubber apron and hold hide with stomach against beam and push your grain and hair off, Do some experimenting for most comfortable way. Hope this helps ya some, Also see if you can get a copy of Deerskins into Buckskins by Matt Richards, lots of pics of what I am trying to explain to you and easy reading for steps on braintanning and making rawhide. Don hope some of this helps ya and shortens the learning curve. To answer your orginal question Yes a flat lawnmower blade should work. Bob
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Zuma Outback explained that pretty well. I have a single bevel store bought fleshing knife. It's a cheapie but it does work. Some really good ones get very pricey. I hardly ever use mine. Mostly I just use my "tin cup" I'll try to send you some pictures today if I can. I use it by holding "cup" upside down in palm of my hand. I use stretchers or flat fleshing beams. For larger animals I clamp fleshing beam on our shop forklift tine and get it a comfortable hight. Then I do like Outback and hold hide in place with my belly. I've never tried to de-hair with it but I think it would work. The only time I made rawhide was muskrat rawhide for backing my sinew backed mini bow for Marshall mini bow challenge. I put it in white ash ashes and water for about three or four days. The hair rubbed right off with very little effort. The epidermal layer was still there and I believe that should be removed for brain tanning. I didn't want tanned, just rawhide so I rubbed off hair left epidermal layer and washed really good. I think I might even have used baking soda to neutralize it. It gets kinda stinky at the hair slipping point. If not washed good it will continue to deteriorate. It make a difference what type of wood ash you use. White ash works great, I tried it a second time with ashes from my nephews wood stove. Not sure what he was burning but never did get hair to slip. You can use lime also. The only deer rawhide I ever used my brother bought me from a well know bowyer. It was cut in strips 2" wide. It still had the epidermal layer on. It actually gave it a neat look almost like scales. Good Luck. I'm thinking much like "skinning a cat" that there's more than one way to flesh a hide. I have never tried to dry hair removal method but I think I will give it a go for the deer hide I plan on brain tanning.
Bjrogg
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Bj, when ya get ready to dry scrape give Pappy a shout, I have personally seen some of Pappys braintan and it is excellent. Bob
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BJ....I've showed a complete brain tan hide done on the primitive skills thread.Under "Big fella into buckskin".
I've fleshed thousands of coon/coyote and many other fur bearing animals and dehaired deer too.To save typing time here.Outbacks' statements are the way I've done mine.Fleshing knife is slightly curved.I've got a figerglass covering over a wooden beam.Tighter radius of surface.Takes a narrower slice of hair off which is less resistance and gets the job done but will, take more time.
Dehaired hundreds of deer dry scraping too.Different tool used like stated.Laced in a frame then too and dry.It can leave rudder board marks at times that can be sanded away.Wet scraping leaves a nice smooth surface.
You may think you reduced work by power washing fleshing but you will still need to use a fleshing knife.
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Well I guess it's up to me now :o
You guys are great. Thanks a bunch.
Zuma 8) :) :) ;) )P( )P(
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Thanks Outback, I've seen a picture of Pappy's scrapers on here before. I'm guessing they went away with the photo bucket hi-jack but I remember what they looked like.
Ed I very much remember and appreciate that thread. It was very thoughtful and informative. I'm guessing the pictures are gone on it to but I believe I have a pretty good understanding of the process from reading it before and will probably look it up again.
Good Luck Zuma I'm mostly scrapping fur bareing animals and although there my be similarities I'm quite sure there are differences to. I'm certain that both Ed and Bob have way more experience with deer than I do.
Bjrogg
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BJ...I can almost gaurantee your going to have questions when first brain tanning.Somewhere along in the steps.The thread is still there..pictures and all.It's different then chemical tanning of which you've done a great job with.
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Ed, just reread your Big fella to Briantan thread. Excellent job of explaining the process. I still have not reached consisty, One hide I get really soft and the next one is card boardy. Not sure if my bucking is not completey rinsed or to stingy on the brains. Bob
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BJ...I can almost gaurantee your going to have questions when first brain tanning.Somewhere along in the steps.The thread is still there..pictures and all.It's different then chemical tanning of which you've done a great job with.
Ed I'm sure your right there. I've had a lot of questions about the chemical tan to. I'm sure I'll have lots of questions about the brain tan and I know who I'm gonna be asking them. Trying to get really muddy equipment washed with the temperatures just above freezing during the day. Lots of fun.lol
Hopefully it gets a little less busy in a week or two. That's I'm hoping one of my first projects.
Bjrogg
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Outbackbob48....The hide done on that thread was about as thick a whitetail hide as I've ever done.About like a yearling elk or a cow I'd say thickness wise.It was at least a 6 year old animal.Making sure all epidermis is off and ringing it a few extra times during braining can make the difference.I used an over amount of brains on that big buck but wanted to make sure.Wrung and twisted the water out of him from dunking in the brain solution at least 8 to 10 times before roping dry if I recall.Elk hides are even more work but when done they are very nice.Excellent pants material.
BJ....mostly,brain tanning is just plain more hand labor all together,but the leather you get from it is kinda special.Sounds like the year is done though if your cleaning up.Another year in the books.Congrats.
Zuma....I hope your taking some of this in.There are many different ways to prepare hides for tanning.I've done enough to figure out the easiest way and the best way and sometimes there's no getting around hand labor sometimes.A person learns to appreciate the native american squaw after a while if brain tanning is the thought in mind.Nowadays wonderful chemicals are out there to produce a pretty good product with less hand labor.The rittels company that sells tanning products is pretty good for that,but if your wanting authenticity and durability brain tan is the king.
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Thanks Ed
Here is what I have so far.
1- Hair off working a little on flesh
2-Hair side, done pressure wash I guess this would make rawhide
3 Hair side fleshed
3- tomorrow is another day. Just fleshing the one side liked to kill me
legs back arms shoulders.
4- Me very poor squaw material
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Nothing easy about brain tanning....
I recently read something interesting about brain tanning. Using soy lecithin in place of brains. You can get soy lecithin in GNC stores and other places. It is the same oils that are in brains. You purchase the lecithin in granules and then add cool water in a quart jar and let them dissolve then use it like brains. Never use hot water. I have not tried it but many said it worked great and does not have the brain smells. I plan to try it on my next hide tanning.
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Don, Now ya know why they get $18 a sg. ft for good hides :o that are buttery soft, and I think they are still working to cheap. The first picture looks like ya missed a lot of grain but hard to tell. I think your going to have a nice pc of rawhide. You just need to pack an extra sandwich when graining :o ;D Bob
Lyman, I have used the soy lechthin a little when I didn't have brains, I really liked it in the hot summer, doesn't go sour near as fast as brains in the heat an flys are not near as bad. Bob
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Thanks for the tips Lymann
Bob I still need more advice,
If I make rawhide should I just dry it flat?
Do you recommend freeze- refreeze or should the
buckskin go right into a dressing solution?
Zuma
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Zuma looks like your getting closer. Your doing better than my squaw would.lol I'm going to let the other guys answer your questions but I would say it depends on what you want when your done. Rawhide or a tanned hide?
I took a couple pictures of my "tin cup" scraper. I use it for almost every thing I flesh from muskrat and mink to coyotes, and coon. I can use it either pushing or pulling and with one or two hands.
I misplaced it one year and cut off about a three inch length of 4" exhaust pipe. It worked but not as well as my "tin cup".
Bjrogg
Ps keep up the good work
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Don, if you are going to just make rawhide you need to lace in a frame and let dry, if you lay it out flat it will kinda shrivel up and still be rawhide that could be stored for later re-hydrating and making braintan, or just freeze for later use of making rawhide or braintan. Decisions,decisions, one more option wring your hide out and put into brains or what ever you are going to use and continue the process, also some people freeze with brains in hide. When we get a really cold spell here in the north I like to brain my hide and freeze dry on the closes line. Freezing and thawing is like a free soften spell, You do need like 20 degrees and below for this to work, probably not and option for ya. Confused Yet? Bob
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Zuma...For dehairing the wet method on the beam all flesh needs to be removed first for a smooth surface on your beam.Risk of tearing a hole otherwise.The first pic looks spotty of epidermis on there yet.Could be your surface was not concave enough to take of a fine 1/4" wide line of epidermis off.Less resistance.To brain tan that you would have hard stiff spots where that epidermis is.Smoking would be lighter or none there too on those spots.I think you can touch that all up and remove it all yet myself.
Lace it into a frame to dry flat if you want rawhide.Otherwise for brain tanning the epidermis needs to be removed first if that is epidermis that I see and I'm pretty sure it is.
Freezing the wet hide for better break down of fibers has some merit I think.I usually freeze my hide prior to fleshing etc.If you've done that already refreezing might help but I don't think it's needed any more.
Massaging in brains onto rawhide and letting the sun bake it into the rawhide then immersing it into water I've heard of workng too.I've never needed to myself but can see why it might help too.Put it somewhere then that no animals can get it.
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BJ that's a cool scraper. Are you actually just using the leading edge
or getting some benefit from the entire edge?
Great Bob thanks
Ed the first picture is where I stopped pressure washing to photograph the tick
you can see. Not scraped at all. The photos on the pipe are of the hair side scraped .
I still have to scrape the other side. Thanks so much for all the help.
Zuma
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Zuma I use the square edge it's pretty thin. I can control how agressive I want to be by how much I tilt it. If I want a more aggressive thinner strip removed I tilt it more and push or pull with one hand and apply downward pressure with the other. If I'm just lightly scraping I may hold flatter and not apply as much down pressure. The round shape makes it easy to control your width of "bite"
Bjrogg
Ps might be a bit unorthodox but it works good for me and feels good in my hand. For really grizzly stuff I can squeeze the fat out but the membrane may still have to be removed with a knife. For really fatty hides like coon or coyotes I like to skin them warm but get the cooled down for fleshing. The fat is much easier to work with cold.
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BJ so it seems to me, you are using the inside of the cylinder?
Also I skinned a coon this am.Tthat sucker is fat fat.
I also shot a fox Sunday. If the fur is not totally tight is it worth messin with?
Thanks Zuma
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Yes Zuma I use the inside 90 degree edge to scrape with. The picture where it's up against the rat I would be pulling down. If I push I would tilt it opposite angle. Coons can have a large amount of fat this time of year. I like to get that fat cold and stiff for scrapping. If you do it warm it's slippery and slimy. If it's cold the scrapper will bite into it and it's much easier to control your mess. From my experience with fox they taint pretty quickly. I'm not saying it won't work but I've done ones that guys gave a day or two later and the belly was already green. I'm sure the fur buyers deal with far worst though. It helps to hang them from back legs to get guts to enter chest cavity if you can't skin them right away. By lose fur I'm not sure if your saying hide isn't prime or mange or green and slipping. None are ideal but not prime would be the best option. Fox aren't nearly hard of work as coon. Especially a big boat coon.
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I flesh mine with a dull draw knife bevel side up on a beam I made by splitting a small poplar tree . You are looking good so far. I dry scrape the hair off laced up in a rack. I have tried the wet scrape but just to messy and stinking for me.
Pappy
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It's a learning curve to master in the beginning fleshing learning the degree of pressure needed to flesh different thicknesses of hides.Practice makes perfect and larger hides are more work that's for sure.On a beam the hair needs to be absolutely free of dirt/burrs/and weed seeds.They will turn into holes if not careful.BJ's right freezing coon prior to fleshing with the fat stiff does a far better job.Fox are very thin and most any fat is mostly between their hind legs and possibly some grissel on the neck too.Taking just the membrane alone off fox is a tedious delicate process but worth the trouble when done right.A person will learn how to fix holes properly too with a tight whip stitch on the flesh side to be invisible from the hair side.
Deer will flesh easier on a beam or in the frame if a little meat is left on the hide too instead of just membrane alone.Delicate areas in the flanks etc. need to be watched too with less pressure applied on these areas.
In time that's why I usually just lace a deer hide into a frame and flesh it.Let it dry and dehair it too.Although I will always keep my fleshing beam and fleshing knife around for use for many hair on critters I wish to tan.
I've used a car wash before on large beef hides to just clean them up hair side very nicely prior to fleshing and dehairing.They actually smell kind of nice after their car wash experience too yet.
Working hides is not the stinky,messy, and buggy experience for me that I hear others complain about.
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I flesh mine with a dull draw knife bevel side up on a beam I made by splitting a small poplar tree . You are looking good so far. I dry scrape the hair off laced up in a rack. I have tried the wet scrape but just to messy and stinking for me.
Pappy
Sounds real traditional Pappy. Hope you had a great Thanksgiving.
I used the pressure washer after ash soak for four days. Worked fine.
I may try the one I have on salt with no ash bath (nothing ventured nothing gained)
Ed you are correct about the curve. Thank you all for making mine more enjoyable.
What I have experienced so far is that the hide is much more delicate around the teat area of a doe
and of course tougher and thicker around the neck. I actually had to resort to cutting the teat area away.
Being a cheapster I found using the trailer tie down strap ok, even kinda adjustable (more curved where flesh removed easier.) The solid 3/8" X 1 1/2" bar worked ok too, although painted. (will file of paint next time or buy a scraper) I checked the thread on Paleo Planet about the soy oil. just might try it.
I froze one of the smaller hides and have a larger one fleshed in a bucket of water near freezing outside.
I also have one pressure washed on the inside, hair still on salted and rolled. Tomorrow I may de-hair with pressure. Supposed to get milder.
Is there any way to clean a fleshed hide before dressing? Mine got a little stained when pressure washing on the plywood.
Zuma
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I feel the same way Ed. I love all the smells each type of critter has its own. Today on my lunch break I put up a mink. Funny thing everyone thought the shop smelled funny. They all know the smells to. Fox and mink have that skunkie smell. Coon just plain smell like coon. Muskrat has its Muskie smell and coyotes always remind me of a wet dog. You blend them all together and they have the smell of the fur shed. I make a mess but I always clean it up right away. Kinda miss the wood stove, that coon fat put off a lot of heat.
Bjrogg
PS dogs always like me this time of year. They really appreciate the smells to. My wife not so much but after all these years she doesn't seem to mind.
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Zuma, I'm not sure what you mean by dressing it. Are you planning on putting some type of tanning solution? Or are you leaving it rawhide (just dried untanned) You could wash with a detergent might remove the stain. When I chemical tanned my beaver, muskrats and coon last year they were already put up air dried like a fur buyer would want them. I used a relaxer degreaser to rehydrate and clean the oils out of those greasy type hides. Might just try some dawn dish soap I don't think it would hurt a thing.
Bjrogg
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BJ,thanks
Dressing as I understand is brains, soy oil, eggs etc. Tanning involves bark. I am going to read up on bark today.
Drying rawhide in a stretcher seems like a pain when I could just cut it into strips for halfting and freeze.
I would have to re-hydrate if I dry it. Or if I get lazier I could freeze the whole hide and continue some other time.
Zuma
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I feel the same way Ed. I love all the smells each type of critter has its own. Today on my lunch break I put up a mink. Funny thing everyone thought the shop smelled funny. They all know the smells to. Fox and mink have that skunkie smell. Coon just plain smell like coon. Muskrat has its Muskie smell and coyotes always remind me of a wet dog. You blend them all together and they have the smell of the fur shed. I make a mess but I always clean it up right away. Kinda miss the wood stove, that coon fat put off a lot of heat.
Bjrogg
PS dogs always like me this time of year. They really appreciate the smells to. My wife not so much but after all these years she doesn't seem to mind.
Exactly with like type experiences and after thought.Burned my useless coon fat in the wood stove too.Pretty blame hot stuff.My dogs all love most all my hobbies.Your degreaser use from dried put up hides is a must really.Rehydating in just water alone can get so much so to fear water rotting occuring.Them oils just seem to dry into that rawhide.Hard spots will take a while to lossen up.Reason I went to just fleshing then freezing them for my own tanning.
Zuma...As time goes on you'll figure out what methods suit yourself.Most times though there are'nt many short cuts for a nice product.