Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: RedBear1313 on December 09, 2017, 06:27:20 am
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Hi all.
Who has experience and advice on backing with snakeskins? specific question about tanned/air dried.
the next bow I will be completing I will be backing with snakeskin.
I hear some people say they prefer air dried over tanned because the tanning process can cause problems.
the skins I have acquired are from snake meat factory so I'm assuming they are tanned, they're quite like leather.
any advice/tips on how to approach a tanned skin?
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Dried skins work better but tanned will do. Ask at the factory about getting green or raw skins. You don't have to get dries. If you are ready to use them they can go on green or you can dry them for using later.
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Redbear1313 I've only used air dried skins. I believe guys do use tanned skins but I think the oils used for tanning can effect the glue. I really can't say though. I'm sure someone will give you some more information. Do you know what type of snakes they are? Most types are very thin and cosmetic backing only. I may be wrong but I've heard Boa is thicker and could possibly even help protect your back.
Bjrogg
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From my experience, tanned skins are spongy and can absorb excess finish and possibly moisture later.
BJ, some folks tan snakes skins with car antifreeze(not really tanning, more like curing) and the glycerin can prevent the glue from working well.
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it's viper skin and I tried posting a pic but didn't work.
what if you size the skin with glue first?
also is there any way of cleaning/degreasing to remove glycerin?
and also I planned on giving my wax finish after it's all said and done.
I'm pretty sure this is from a snake meat factory so I'm guessing they use something better than antifreeze.
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They probably use a commercial tanning solution. With these commercial tanning solutions the skin becomes leather which is very porous, sponge like. Like I said, you can use tanned skins but I prefer not to.
If you remove the glycerin you remove the curing material. Antifreeze is glycerin and alcohol. Once the alcohol dissipates the glycerin remains as a cure for the skin.
With any skin or rawhide backing you want a good sealing agent for a finish. Shellac, varnish or similar. I use Tru-Oil, a gun stock finish. You can wax over any of these though.
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my bow finish--beeswax and pine pitch.
??
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Probably not good for attaching a snake skin unless you put the skin down first. You'd be better off with a more modern finish for your bow with snake skin backing.
FYI...I like to use 2 skins, one for each limb and put them down separately. With some skins the pattern is so you could cut it in half lengthwise and add a half to each limb with then meeting at the center of the handle.
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oh that's not what I intend to use to glue the skin to the bow lol----I'm going to use actual glue, just haven't decided which.
suggestions?
this is also going to be sinew backed.
that's the finish I have used on my bare wood bow and thought it would work well for this one too, after it's all completed.
the skin I have is large enough for my bow with extra.
my plan is to cut the skin in half with a joint in the handle's center, because the pattern closer to the ends is smaller and will fit the narrow limbs better.
that will also leave me some skin for other uses.
then I have some cowhide that is stamped with a snakeskin pattern, I'm going to use the belly portion to cover the handle, which will cover the seam in the actual skins glued down.
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If you have already added the bees wax and pine pitch to the bow the glue probably will not adhere.
What glues do you have available? Hide glue should work well but other synthetic glues should work well also.
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Absolutely ,air dried
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I prefer air dried skins for backing bows. To me they seemed a lot easier after glue up to remove the scales. Also as someone has mentioned they will stick better to bow. I use titebond 3 for glue.
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If you have already added the bees wax and pine pitch to the bow the glue probably will not adhere.
What glues do you have available? Hide glue should work well but other synthetic glues should work well also.
no no no. beeswax AFTER I finish the bow.
I have hide glue I made for the sinew but I figured I should use a commercial glue for the skin.
also, what kind of glue would you recommend for glue on nock tips?
I am adding some wenge nock tips.
Is there anything I can do to the skin to help it stick?
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It will depend on whether the skin is dried(green) or tanned. For rawhide and dried snake skins I prefer hide glue but carpenters white or yellow glue works well and that's what most folks use.
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if you use natural hide glue is there a possibility that the skin could absorb some moisture and begin to peel off?
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If it is well sealed after the glue dries that shouldn't be a problem. If the shin is tanned I wouldn't use hide glue but the carpenters glue.
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I've never used tanned skins for the same reasons Pat said. I think if I did i'd use Contact cement to glue it on rather then wet it and using a glue like Tightbond.
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Wow Pat B really does have all the answers! It must be that 200+ years of experience. This has been a very insightful discussion as I am hoping to try snake skin soon! Thanks guys!
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Some of the best Bowyer's on this site gave you some of the best info out there for applying a snake skin.
Although I have used tanned snake skins on several bows with great success. Now the skins I get are from a leather shop and are actually comercialy tanned. I have figured out a process to get them to adhear very nicely. Its actually not that much different than a dried skin. And it smells better too! Ill try to write up a post and put it out there for all to see. But if you want some more one on one just send me a message and we can talk on the phone. Its easier for me that way. Good luck and post pictures!
Patrick
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Some of the best Bowyer's on this site gave you some of the best info out there for applying a snake skin.
Although I have used tanned snake skins on several bows with great success. Now the skins I get are from a leather shop and are actually comercialy tanned. I have figured out a process to get them to adhear very nicely. Its actually not that much different than a dried skin. And it smells better too! Ill try to write up a post and put it out there for all to see. But if you want some more one on one just send me a message and we can talk on the phone. Its easier for me that way. Good luck and post pictures!
Patrick
I got the skin off of ebay.
I asked them and they said they are a distributor, they use a 'synthetic tanning agent by BASF and it contains no chromes'
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Ok after some searching I found where I had replied to a similar questions a year or two ago. Im just pasting my response here.
"Well as far as the tanned skin goes. I agree that a air dried skin would be easier and better. But I'm a pore/cheap Bowyer. I've used tanned skins almost every time I put them on a bow. The thing about them are, you have to do a little more work when putting them on. First of all, take some tape or something sticky and remove as much of the "tanned" part on the back that is loose and will come off. That step is important, if you don't, it will peal right off like velcro after its glued to your bow.
Next, before your ready to apply the skins, most people soak them in water. DON'T DO THAT with a tanned skin. I take a damp wrap and wipe down the tanned side while applying a little pressure. This softens the skin a little and finishes removing any loose pieces. Then I let the skin dry.
Next, I take the skin a "flex" it around to make sure that the water didn't make any stiff areas in it. I will sometimes use the tape again just to be certain that all the loose particles are gone.
Now you are ready to figure out your pattern on your bow that you want. You can cut the skin down a bit. But leave it with enough that you have some room for adjustment.
When your ready and you have test fitted your skin. Prep the back of your bow for gluing. I use PatB's method. Wash the back with dawn dish soap and rinse with boiling water. I use tight bond 3 to apply the skin. First apply a thin coat of glue to both the bow and the skin to "size" them. The skin will such up a good bit of the glue. Be sure to get the glue on every part of the surface that you want the skin to be glued to. Do your best not to get glue on the wrong side of the skin.
Once the glue has dried to a very tacky state. Apply a fair layer of glue to both pieces and carefully apply the skin to the back.
Work from the handle to the tip pressing and smoothing out any air bubbles and clumps of glue. Keep doing this till you have a nice smooth application. Then repeat for the other side.
It's a good idea to clean up any excess glue before it starts to set up. Also don't move the skin after it is tacky. This will screw up the adhesion.
I let mine set for about a week in a dry warm location. Then I use the smooth side of my farriers rasp at a downward angle to "file" off and clean up the edges. Always work from the back to the belly at a slight angle. I also use a card scraper to clean up only the glue on the edges of the bow. You will know if the glue is cured, if it scrapes like wood. If not set it up for a few more days. I also us a sanding block to help clean up the edges.
I have never had a tanned skin come loose with this process. One of them on a bow has probably been shot 2000 times. Hope this helps. "
The only thing I could add is when you are cleaning up the edges on a tanned skin sometimes they will be fuzzy and hard to get a crisp edge. Just get them uniformed and apply a little superglue down the edge. Do your best to not get it on the back of the skin. It will darken it. After the superglue is dry, lightly sand the edge. Then apply you finish and let the first coat cure. Then burnish the edge of the skin. And you should be golden! I sometimes use a black marker and just ever so slightly run the edge of the skin. I think it gives it a nice contrast. But thats up to you.
Patrick
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for wood tip overlays I use titebond3 on horn tips I use titebond gel CA glue. the gel seems to work better than the thin fast setting glue,the gel still sets up in 15 sec. or so. I wait three hours until I shape them. For the snake skins I use a coat to back of the bow first with tite bond 3 .after it is dried I then put another coat of tite bond 3 and roll the skins from handle to tip. Make sure to work the air bubbles out and let dry over night.next day you can trim and remove scales before finish. I always use truoil. its easy to apply and dries great in between coats. I do three coats.00 steel wool and apply another coat sanding lightly with 00 steel wool in between the next three coats with 6 total coats.
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would you guys say it might be a good idea, when sizing the bow and skin being put on, to thin the glue with water for the sizing coats, especially the glue being used for sizing the tanned skin, since it will soak some extra up?
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would you guys say it might be a good idea, when sizing the bow and skin being put on, to thin the glue with water for the sizing coats, especially the glue being used for sizing the tanned skin, since it will soak some extra up?
Yes, I do that quite offten and I use a small 1 inch paint brush to apply the glue, I get a good even coat that way.
Patrick
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Well guys here are some progress pics.
one layer of sinew down been drying a few days.
going to do some minor fill in and then lay down one more layer today and then I think I'll call it good.
what do you think so far?
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Looks good. Let the sinew cure out well before stressing. The only thin I see that might be a problem it not pre-shaping the tip overlays. It can be difficult getting them to blend back into the limb tip when they are on the tips. I like to get the inner end to a thin, feathered shape before gluing them down.
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figured it would be easier to shape such a small piece of wood after I attached it, gives me something to hold onto to.
plus I'm still not fully decided on how to shape the tip ov.lay yet.
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Getting a good feathered edge where the overlay meets the limb first eliminates the chance of screwing up the sinew of bows back at that point while shaping and sanding. You can leave the rest of it bulky but getting that edge thinned first is simpler with fewer problems later.
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Second and (what I intended to be) last layer of sinew layed down.
been sitting in the semi heated garage that hovers in the mid to upper 60's curing for just a few days now.
Will these splits be a problem and what causes it/how can you prevent it?
they don't appear to have actually raised off the wood, as in delam.
but it seems one area is pulling stronger than the other exposing small amounts of wood.
I sized several coats starting with a very thin layer gradually adding more hide glue, to the final sizing coat of a non diluted layer of hide glue before any sinew was laid down.
I pre soaked and let dry slightly (that really did seem to help the sinew become saturated with hide glue) the strands I laid down, combing and massaging them after pre soak.