Primitive Archer

Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: gfugal on December 14, 2017, 03:51:05 pm

Title: Bow for Upstatenybowyer (Bad news pg 3)
Post by: gfugal on December 14, 2017, 03:51:05 pm
Since the bow I was making in the Fred Arnold Bow Trade didn't end up working I thought I would give a second shot at this. Hopefully, this doesn't break as well. We'll see. But Upstate deserves a bow since he's been so patient with me. I didn't want to have people worry about waiting for me in the trade since I don't think I'll get this done anytime soon, especially with the holidays. I'm currently working on a maple stave I got from Springbuck. It had some serious twists that needed fixing to I steamed them out as best I could. I also recurved the tips slightly. The stave started out with a lot of natural reflex. What you see now is how much was left after I deflexed it a bit. I'll post my progress and updates on here. Stay tuned throughout the coming months.

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/0afZoclQrwYLpx31J-2Z6KTwwwcXeVyZng9naGKjFmJshCgDFBi39W-wybyEYngvxlqy7XYgGus5TPXs7Y0a2qhd8oj1YsZEKpTCX9CplEF1O9fU5Jzuqdy5uoItViuwASoKXvVymhkIfFxL8iR8rB0aLoAb3qqnJPr8fbZ4EoDJN6q9PTU_DdHhPi2dG3j1NJDOZKgRde1YCga-lAlbHKIH-2PIUz4MOXos7fpUoZtp6Bfu4T3-E6yxdSG9Vq_OvuCyZBS_mzCHbnbQ6IeurvlOEsVfCkhZPjZ6dZ9TqcnOFYIGTWuTb4fmMBFokHfkOubnjuLMpccBo2YAwngL_mu3d7hnjJ7KIBDXynkY7YqAc_CsEQW5XLdvMWE0bGfVcrOCeQ6T-xs6rahD51zXTb200iTA5jsNDQn45-2o4RP9FUwRqvR1Ojxb18-Rg-_zfVI83GiSvtg33s20Kyq1XwRBSw4RfZK0onm-yQ0a6A6hfTjw7QEWO7CvOBDG6J9ZaGKwMaUBWZb8WmgZi5g4omvnBJdT5PHKJ8IOa6H32j_73nj0dboJP83fC_OxqunCDX7sBMhUYOfBPH4uY2NJNZiHBXafjWO86J6QzmMuutk8W_SusarNs2TIq9HTq0-1mLvKcju0GDhVF73Q36MIGWIN6SYCHvj0EA=w1600-h533-no)
Title: Re: Bow for Upstatenybowyer
Post by: gfugal on December 14, 2017, 03:54:40 pm
Here's The method I used to recurve the tips. I just boiled them for like 40 minutes then clamped them into my form here. I didn't want the full curve so I only clamped halfway through the bend.

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/hMZmCMOO8xKjUhiRG_uZIj17KhTi1IZVMk8KYiijMo5zfCq0-0-Dt4iwXxt75GjXndQz6XIPpGqX4ZhENr9vrEX_7TZxx22h8LOKXbHYeYM7qc3Ac-feNy-3LXQ8HMvgbPxhEMxVA4rldyChUdgJBno3aDp5Er2z83_iBGSuJ3lT3DVjIWAkrLgl1MfUnnyQxiTKcz_aTrrCtkrmrwemmlTdeWIyYAp7LSIwRGhsYxZDGAWdq6SITYLbmbj_o25RzaNtHLtTwq-opTXjbs3D2WSW69aB2pf2DdHK1kQ-cK2FnsWlFwijTCEU56s40axnND-AIsGMPtX4EqXkPe1wmEY2dyMpufMa_AB_b2TzK9vsvMUazQTYoWqU_HZsl4e3ZuDI_e08Nk-rDDcwjV_3ZGJakCgDZl_bGI-snBKGXM-oD01jaGmcCl3axDE53REIyETDO8t9cGgN-1xfclDxBY1Lu07LNf2iM-qT9tU2-4ECSSEXgtNoSkahhXMU2kSRBcExyx-4QZe0VY9Rgdxp-DxmpMyZcTXp_UZFo96c4YE9Oop6ujGkPQ_nT56lW1PRe_lIeXiPe6kKvIUfs9OCNHuxE7e73ugYEk13_yKG9cOF3aMEU5AQDINUeZKJOV_XfqgjlithdgybeWxz_0tAAAKqijQMmBfJ9jHs=w287-h382-no)
Title: Re: Bow for Upstatenybowyer
Post by: Pappy on December 15, 2017, 06:31:18 am
Looks like a good start. ;)
 Pappy
Title: Re: Bow for Upstatenybowyer
Post by: PatM on December 15, 2017, 08:08:14 am
Worth noting I had to  proceed with plan B. Unusual limb failure at 33 inch draw.  Flew a little too close to the sun with my design.
Title: Re: Bow for Upstatenybowyer
Post by: upstatenybowyer on December 15, 2017, 08:46:41 am
Hey thanks buddy! No rush. It's all a learning process anyway.  ;)

I like the Icarus reference PatM. If I remember correctly, the old Nintendo game involved a bow and arrow?  (SH)
Title: Re: Bow for Upstatenybowyer
Post by: gfugal on January 31, 2018, 06:16:40 pm
So despite my multiple trials of steam bending there was still some twist in a limb. Inspired by another thread I started (http://www.primitivearcher.com/smf/index.php/topic,62137.msg869977.html#msg869977) I made a 2x4 wrench to help apply torque. Also instead of using a steam box, a pot with tinfoil, or a garbage bag which I was using before I was inspired by this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=50uXPPt8-VI to use some plastic sleeve bags. I happened to have one that was storing a poster for my physics project, but you can get them off amazon. It looks like this.

The benefits are: it's not baggy so it's easier to work with, it can be any length you need it to be, and it's clear so you can see how your bending looks inside the bag. HUGE improvement to the black trash-bags I was using since I couldn't see how much it was bending, and miles ahead of the steam-box since you can manipulate it while it's still in the steam.

Anyway here's my set up. I have a steamer with a tube, that I just tape into the bag then tape the bag shut around the bow, but If you don't have one I'm sure you can improvise one out of a pot of boiling water somehow, although less mobile.
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/lIJWnQozf_-Y_LTzLozBHEt6D3-6jQ68Gg1OXN0lKronOfBKMoWdUdGjUrJfUSYDWsRvzPWpZimlNXjInusGotjfik-Qxw_AEVbRDyjYr5R6R57puxV8ZouAi3lBeNFBSOkYvZ4P1kKuAfyELWtSjjtUc61K5QSFpwkRKXz7AtM49e5Ee4p3jjNCTEUkp7CrdCV2TVrKfgLPzC2J6ZULtl0w4Rtn1LH_VCBLgouJXIijv9NH1Hv-uwzsxYCVmtjn5xLyyn18ItkwAxNOI-h3PydXsvAfOIQBH9ea8qs1-qqfZdRp9IQY1zzuMupSblTP7UhYyxwYnuHeokm0ewz-eymstWtDH9F__zF4ZRpAopeNnNO4mL30N462BIyFvcyEOlzQUJ_1O1hlYoqF1gbkW4BZpVMEiik3wsR_JhOULyyh5MNb7z8i2QUzjFlSgQph_a5owLV2aqIQUexMRCDgE34k-0l9WdR9ZvWBMsLHErcBauI9HGGLstBpNxiEAvoVq8jSwnJMO4HzCuxI75E8RkLZoekwqIzF38_zkEACFj9Ax65YkTZDYnO_eV6l5JP9nCLHfkYI5hC7YXIz90CEe4OSYV9ErEndgyQMs7v9ncO5XWjX4DUHVolOjXoVy_ljQVWewfEb1TZAQ_Td4VNzdVnsY3We44KW1w=w986-h740-no)
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/kGZWVyPjLEvrfxscMpRXl02HycKrB48UNcGT1fAhWPPVAEcmHDesAALOpmkbppjnkYI2sfCBxZSmC2PL3n89PKgfqWCaFGxLJDmMGaliYUMhZ6jMtxWLJBSulGgfEO-nYsCnvQdAyc4oK_FO21zuNq8z2WYmiztbNKM-FiTeJoZUBsbCi6X4fdV0nNYqDrQppO2Of3YCuzMeEkFEPRNLhFIxJkQQReS1axfvEie8QEgkPMkYKr-znnPhzjQH3U1o4bOAJbmA_-tEobz0RBnmNAyVAXgVoJgkaRiMQzIEiOsEKla4kuxuBYJQ-OHM0UoFoLigDYm0pn5UVqZT14EjxkKT_x-r0Nrd_t8aBV_Qk8NKHl5Cglng28AwbyMVwjCwSUWT5ZeO_XNkDNtIuh9SbfuweORFzpr4uPKJx_XzFlJPP0VDKWbrC-9xzayg4Yv_KCQIxBAUbaHGcmsxIB69WtjBFc4FpMxRyntNh4KKQlayz-NaJNiAU55wGV7zbvULBiTpG-3H2oKLgQ-Wb-jTc8GchWgB24XSFWOwv0pcxYCXzQwg-5zgUM7CIAbB3rrWFEsWbU5sTN-ItFvvRLd0kpZjq1jxJggPtnBZV4w2lXm4Xu3RQ4UmLk6qXPDhfDQJmV4j0Zzpa8pI1tuUMKVrgjE-dN8pGUBwBA=w986-h740-no)

These next photos show you how bad the twist is, and what it's like after fixing it.
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/4IrB6qeknbP3e7vzm4vhP8UMu090zYOVCL_XK4_WsS7jIyBQAyvG03gbcXxJ8279fYzxQsovm02vH5xSHqgY5ZiZ06xwl5tVHB5VeLjiYMp7M5Wn2ZXTExxHM26sgVsdBSYttQ4VAt0L7GC2zco-oLzPGyZ5AH-Qr3V8WKsN90EymsQvYnwvSU3nmFZnUFx8oBz7ls8w3JM1WSKUcALcV4ImGMtYkA88ic5zAb_PAOnEW05Y82v3Ad0ce48JWLSntHuNAR6zgsXTehelampjqAg7-Z9lIr9JVQ_XU6-jVnGAl5SD5_z35vz5HsTZ3O6GDZWju05VDluQZnY6N-kkghsXiJod8fOwcRA78cgtQVFhUHP0bwXG1S54bIGHxwNWGLzi3sfLSjDRWkOYqmlqPrbdNp0sS3TR4RuT56X6DsZdq_Yyhyc6GXsOyUZrXW3avCdky6JYeV57LnGWCDJf1S8QMwFZFI1KWq5HXd7TsT-zz9ECp0XlJPMRqUb8N_hwoVpNEneGdn6gVK_g06fBrTvccveXkOrp6tg3uMJJN8hvXrCSvPrhUXV-d1YGYwrPtO5xZ5EARk22dz-Rt1xEz2fhBcF4m9chdmw-sD9qYjRsMtnoYB5bf3TU2PZLy9ph2ilAte_ZHvrQFYk0Hh0EwuLDHPGD7c8g9w=w358-h740-no)
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/Cb53aq0Z5egytSZtwApk6jwlxY0R4gptlMta-2QfZ7uB-SPI6xwaXTwyNFM6xfjUUThoHtUb-mavScEbpUpgA_ft3bi3gMGjgduG1jKyjq6TkalAsr_7heLwsivXo4D_IyESrQwQlhvcVftsouWtw2ZM5yTZfYod1fCItbhJ6LYQLlF92xtrZfnEgJuUwtdfTh7TzrCi3_8PVCnFtQYjiTqXFs7uCLw4JwJ1b2OFYmybxphjn_HAKZRRsuprUg1KTDj8C-L2EZ-m7_2XeoDQ5Rkis5RbI8H94Yhrvi50Ypz8-JunLvQZK25NSdpvi97wM5uuIemA-mCg63NAm9pp13udWpVnbSNeXNcnYEJxcOkzG8LnnuGwMi1sLDpWqNCtPos9dc2nld2Dg7xaJOghSBHf6ffFq1FoQLxGLJS1Ew7ke4Q3BcTEocoQwrOgGJT1TDNkH6LWp-iJA8WR8fCorCL7wRAimvqrDl-jigCrGX23aKmBzjKBAD92jvGb-5mEE92ypUnSLJ9TZCBgu1I8zv2sJN6H2pG9Hq-k9-uEP7hO7UNvjWa5qSl20SgJoPKI5Oq69ZKhELuQpPid26XQYBn_g9Iq3sj3tEvxTyVNjmV9SBlHsO0kkD-HifGb0mu7CpBwPW5vW5GXfHGiPd1s5y_ozbmn8PNA7A=w383-h740-no)
Title: Re: Bow for Upstatenybowyer
Post by: NorthHeart on January 31, 2018, 08:00:36 pm
Gfugal, thanks for posting your method thats really cool. 

You guys that use steam or boiling, do you ever have issues with the wood checking?  I know steam supposedly pushes moisture out of the wood(NOT into it), but i have had a couple issues with my limited steam experience where the wood checked.  What about boiling does that seem to work better or worse?
Title: Re: Bow for Upstatenybowyer
Post by: upstatenybowyer on January 31, 2018, 08:19:54 pm
Cool method man.  8) Lookin' good!  :)
Title: Re: Bow for Upstatenybowyer
Post by: gfugal on February 01, 2018, 09:03:31 am
Gfugal, thanks for posting your method thats really cool. 

You guys that use steam or boiling, do you ever have issues with the wood checking?  I know steam supposedly pushes moisture out of the wood(NOT into it), but i have had a couple issues with my limited steam experience where the wood checked.  What about boiling does that seem to work better or worse?

Yeah that has been a thing I've worried about with this bow since I have boiled and steamed the heck out of it. But trust me, it needed it. Luckily it hasn't' checked at all, but it has had a lot of the moisture driven out if it. I'm sure waiting several days to a week should return it to normal moisture levels so you can tiller it, but I'm not sure. You would have to ask someone more experienced.

This bow didn't get any checking, but a honey locust bow I was working on before did develop checks. I only steamed that one, nut I imagine boiling and steaming are the same, since it's the heat that drives out the moisture. So I guess it depends on the wood. I've heard that applying a coat of TB3 seals the wood against moisture leaving in these situations just like it does when you're seasoning a stave. I have been meaning to buy some more but I only have a bit left so I haven't tried this yet personally. I wish there was a cheaper waterproof coating you could put on other than TB3 that can withstand the temps and moisture of boiling/steaming. Anyone know of anything else?
Title: Re: Bow for Upstatenybowyer
Post by: NorthHeart on February 01, 2018, 09:18:31 am
I too have heard of coating the wood but they suggested a clear coat like urethane wood finish or shelac.  Hopefully someone else with more experience can chime in.
Title: Re: Bow for Upstatenybowyer
Post by: gfugal on February 01, 2018, 09:28:03 am
Worth noting I had to  proceed with plan B. Unusual limb failure at 33 inch draw.  Flew a little too close to the sun with my design.
Haha I don't think any limb failure is unsual at 33 inches. I appreciate your efforts though. Even if you could just get it to 30 i think I'll be good. I calculated a 32 inch draw but have never had a bow that can actually draw 32 inches to test it out. 28"is definitely too short but I manage so maybe 30 will be long enough. But if your still up for the challenge by all means try for 32 again. Not going to lie I look forward to getting a bow from you, if that is still an option. It would be a nice extra benefit for finishing this one and sending it to upstate.

Hey thanks buddy! No rush. It's all a learning process anyway.  ;)
Cool method man.  8) Lookin' good!  :)
Hey upstate thanks! I wish i was as fast as you. You've built like 6 since I've started this one haha. I know you probably don't need another bow since you're so good at making them yourself, but thanks for entertaining me. This process is more for my growth and experience and I'm glad your still willing to accept one, despite it taking so long. I'm busy whithout much space or time to work on it but it's good to have someone expecting it as motivation, so I apologize that this is such a slow process.
Title: Re: Bow for Upstatenybowyer
Post by: gfugal on February 07, 2018, 12:02:29 pm
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/dUpo9xaocknun-CJh9WF2LcOWQcROUZLNLXu3cDwS1npuzkRlyhAugfbBfsqKQMl3KR-3rvsvZtCUjWEHbJ7mIAo9hakK4-qQWzmgdByjc1NDULtwKmT9zTJL28lqpd3EjSKYQR0hZNEjxUM4l24F3KxUDkP_AQxvlaSGn26yb9OU72rKMBHXeVZVE_NwrTQ8QjuN6AB17K83sa2IIsrkTOrQr4yVQqA0P7jaurL7BqqvjkTEwOBdu3SM6nKflb0skIK2macJBpEJ60oNzJKmAHDWsawrRRQ1fPGt6QoE2lco57tbUGfS1osCdJSwYhmc37qIllc9lWA12JTA4vq01LnbQTA05cKISqlX4lq-QD4ODwZG1bgH1wQsvtRK3e3sqmb7dRjJ3WEDLFP5WRGICs53ZjESfLemEReFAJJfMC66XlTGTz1dB8pI470tCLKG-yp2RT5MUzgxcrJDozqzohUVMNs-3iSCK7WbX_vFjWLe8nkHQXMjA5dmJ_p0ZIJbg53GF3BWj9oc7wv7qgbB884B3I08GfJpGW381b1OQG4fK4DUoA1iIY4sOd6NOKzpqAfatxywg31JKlIbpLL_BLlqAXp0WbQ--MxcdWm2-M5cqyO43B6YvCqv0jVdYZcGBUWAdFG7uwfmRA-kecUQJzNh8N_jdxqbw=w986-h740-no)

I've got the bow on the long string and bending about 4" of tip movement. Once I get it bending more than 8 inches, I will see If I can brace it. I feel this is the slowest part of tillering and the hardest for me to get through, because you have to remove a lot of wood to see any change, yet you don't want to move too fast either. I find that once I get it braced things move quicker for me. Any advice on the tiller so far?
Title: Re: Bow for Upstatenybowyer
Post by: simson on February 07, 2018, 12:15:55 pm
I cannot see some pics!??
Title: Re: Bow for Upstatenybowyer
Post by: gfugal on February 07, 2018, 12:34:40 pm
Sorry about that. I struggle sometimes with the privacy settings on my pictures. There was another picture in the original post that I realized wasn't showing either.
Title: Re: Bow for Upstatenybowyer
Post by: stuckinthemud on February 07, 2018, 01:27:39 pm
That's coming along nicely!
Title: Re: Bow for Upstatenybowyer
Post by: Springbuck on February 07, 2018, 05:30:10 pm
Greg, you know I just gave you that maple stave as a joke, right?  It's impossible!   JK!  You are off to a great start. 

  For the record. I did clean out a corner of the garage, giving him a lot of "seconds" I hadn't gotten to for a while.  But that maple bit was long-ish, clean, and solid.  It just had a lot of twist that started pretty close to the handle, which would be challenging to remove.

Greg, occasionally, after reducing a stave, I steam out a big curve or twist.  If it doesn't go away completely, it's diminished enough to crank it down to a form or board with C-clamps, and get the rest with belly  "toasting" dry heat.

Good luck!
Title: Re: Bow for Upstatenybowyer
Post by: gfugal on February 07, 2018, 06:18:02 pm
Greg, you know I just gave you that maple stave as a joke, right?  It's impossible!   JK!  You are off to a great start. 

  For the record. I did clean out a corner of the garage, giving him a lot of "seconds" I hadn't gotten to for a while.  But that maple bit was long-ish, clean, and solid.  It just had a lot of twist that started pretty close to the handle, which would be challenging to remove.

Greg, occasionally, after reducing a stave, I steam out a big curve or twist.  If it doesn't go away completely, it's diminished enough to crank it down to a form or board with C-clamps, and get the rest with belly  "toasting" dry heat.

Good luck!
Yes, it was a good stave! Thanks for it and the other ones you gave me! other than the ridiculous twists and a knot on the right near the recurve (you can see I'm leaving that part a little thicker) and a little pin knots here and there. It seemed like the stave of yours requiring the least work, so I could get one to Upstate as fast as possible (which isn't very fast for me). After many many tries I feel the twist is mostly gone and should be satisfactory, especially if I tiller it right. I heard a very faint tick when I was tillering it, and got nervous since it was on the side with the pin knots near the edge, so I decided to back it with Linen for extra security. I haven't heard anything yet, and it hasn't gotten any set, hopefully, it stays that way.
Title: Re: Bow for Upstatenybowyer
Post by: Springbuck on February 07, 2018, 11:02:44 pm
OOOOH, sorry about the "tic"!  But that canyon maple is pretty good bow wood.  It's very tough, and decently hard.  It's hard to find a good stave without cutting a fairly large tree, but if you look around on a hike,  or can deal with a crook or knot, it makes bows.
Title: Re: Bow for Upstatenybowyer
Post by: gfugal on February 08, 2018, 12:14:26 am
OOOOH, sorry about the "tic"!  But that canyon maple is pretty good bow wood.  It's very tough, and decently hard.  It's hard to find a good stave without cutting a fairly large tree, but if you look around on a hike,  or can deal with a crook or knot, it makes bows.
I'll have to keep an eye out for it then. I've loved what I've worked on so far. It beets the two juniper bows, douglas fir, and red oak wood I've worked on that's for sure. Do you just get a permit to cut it down, or something? Also since the mountain in front of Timp is called mount mahagony, I'm guessing there's a considerable amount of Mountain Mahagony trees in the canyons. Have you ever used them before, i thought I read somwere that they make a decent bow.
Title: Re: Bow for Upstatenybowyer
Post by: Springbuck on February 08, 2018, 06:07:30 pm
  Mountain mahogany should make some fantastic bows, but I tried and failed on the couple very marginal pieces I played with.  It's really scrubby, branches a ton, and had crooks and knots everywhere.

Up in the top north-east corner of Utah in a place called One Mile Canyon in the Sawtooth Mountains, where I used to hunt deer with a bow, I once saw a huge gully/canyon full of LARGE, tall mahoganies packed into a shaded low-lying area.  Many had been pushed down by snow and they were the biggest straightest trees I've ever seen anywhere of the species.  I have meant ever since to go find some staves up there, but I always have enough wood, little time, I hunt somewhere else now, and it's a three hour drive each way....... one of these days, I guess.

I wouldn't harvest much of anything off the open foothills on the Wasatch Front, but up the canyons there should be plenty of maple.  The Bountiful Peak loop has you driving by tons of it.  I confess I didn't get a permit, but I was in a wild back area and took one small tree from the middle of huge mile wide thickets of the stuff, and I've only done that a couple times.  They cut tons of it down as they clear lots for houses, along with the oakbrush. Sometimes when working on trees for money in the houses invading the foothills I get the maple.  So far that's all I have needed or used.
Title: Re: Bow for Upstatenybowyer
Post by: gfugal on February 08, 2018, 11:53:54 pm
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/ZKMJh_yQKYAkr-Moj3UqHDGRcdcb1w3A3G3L-oQDpptB_LlMoO_doV3tPKBevQj8JKty_VR1zmBGBjBAhUJcrrIeAOPMSCD6J9v_jG6K120JrSwUIq_xT1PsQGQPUJZ3Nv1YiEKZczBnnrctapO2cEMlIO-E2DXfnIfxGg72bXmhx2zrHdoHxNbx45PKFSIiDja49-yDBrMWBJCveaRQ_mdd_lGzbwfYFWXBwHvdy5uwoYLRvfjJEtExxOLXh6IhL8282LaoBd8Rb8s_Wj1I2WvSh_mmC3-YZ5sbGR3lqJzZ-uR4zhHweTUxQT83pvN1DNRzrb3EltM-FYIEXqDaJ42yxYZm1PNkXt3aOrjjY7XRU3v-K9IKZIyGMqcn-bohFK9ajKGtMzxKluUrlXEtnkwcKWe-qybkDeV-Mk3uh1ltKL_RakEEA7BLCKx1KxjqE8RqA1fISRjAtkDhYUP7pdUCA6-HXvRxOUuYaxHbyf9hW2z-l4xSk89GukNgmb43ZIR3m10Qgm0m_0e3dr-x_8STDEyh3-10ixZu_TLpiyw6mbj649RlFMwC7_ZbKrZTczDHApLAWuSEX7ADQBagldRCS9OtX3QqyAaq89PA8x9ZkSY3LFbhn2QqQmUiH0lzUPHE1hJhuuvkGk_S-LBAhD3cqSybCWimUg=w825-h618-no)
I've got the bow braced. I'm worried a bit about being underweight, yet at the same time, I'm getting a bit of set (close to an inch). The reasons for this set has me baffled and I think I've narrowed it down to a couple of culprits. I don't think it's the design since it's nearly 68 inches long, a0bout 2 inches wide on average, and I haven't gotten near full draw yet. It's possible it's the wood, or some issue with humidity. But as attested by springbuck the wood should be good quality, and I believe so myself and I keep it in my house which fluctuates from 45-50% humidity. My guess is that it has something to do with my tillering. So here's my guesses of the main culprits and would ask for your advice on what you feel the issue is. 1) my tiller isn't distributed enough throughout the limb, with too much occurring in too little of a section. I'm going to post a picture of it at 18 inches later so you can see and judge accordingly. I already know that there are some issues with it, with the right limb, bending more out of the fades and being slightly weaker. Yet the set is more pronounced on the left side. Potential Issue 2) it occurs due to me leaving drawn too long. My current tillering process has me string it on the tillering stick, set it down on the tile grid, and take a picture. I try to go as fast as possible, but It probably takes at least 30 seconds but no more than a minute. I also left it braced for quite a while when I first got it there, to measure it's bend and limb distance from the string. The 3rd) possibility that I'm getting more and more curious about is whether my belly shape has to do with it. Like I said it's about 2 inches wide, but not only that I tiller pretty flat, without rounding the belly much at all so it's almost rectangular in cross-section. It makes sense to me that it would reduce stress on the center fibers that way, but maybe there's more to it than that. Almost every other person's bow I see on here has thicker limbs, whereas mine is only about a quarter inch thick. Is having such thin and wide limbs causing some unknown problem? Anyway, let me know what you think. I've been trying to follow the no set tillering method and have never drawn it more than 40 lbs. Here's the picture I said I would include.

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/--MtLEApoBCvTVg1ThpMHbikCnrmlbRSWRYSjYU_hgXJ6GJ4mRj_W6Srfjzy-pmNinrvziwF7a7CQno76amLSAaTpoAp8aFtkIvSqIY40vXiLmsgngIPlqxUFuMfz0PTxxywMGQBIWaqVZMN4Fbtk0jOcJsWgZ71uvlljQBV64HDyZHopQM_VREwE_qm7Gsrb1JPU-gcSPrq3tXq6KBgd_Bb96kMyQr-EEa9MsRhvf74QxJIr7nm_ktkLlhv1ii_3qwUFd0u4FoNqXqcImfSBUn0EzI2QyKviD8WvCetvFCAjKMgBkq54cIGxdwETIbcv5SHrYb29d8otA3lBfQoRy5YKuqBXL1SBAyqtlk55xzS9A9XlOMLl_3R11I4ocaDdusmINb7SjWWOEP79JLEdqetJdaCf492-ZnetIens3L-L0Gpfl_NYXD9juH0dvDNESEB-rhIrWTET1sn4EAKnIGwWU_tvPkmJ1hq2IuaigAR2H3L-MHbWE8X5yEdK_zK7QB1uWCjLLIARNV0-WM0gm6iWrd5tqO-HZ41ZrFHbtvOPnu6p_Mx1dVXRfXnz3y9X2ySNmMQeChPWBvCo6dxyw47axQljR_XyglJH0gO0uLRDR5GmecjhJOKeg_5Qv--klEXraTrVZKCktLZAnQIHH7AahaBUwc11w=w825-h618-no)
Title: Re: Bow for Upstatenybowyer (tiller advice needed pg 2)
Post by: stuckinthemud on February 09, 2018, 05:21:51 am
Hi Greg, I don't have the experience to answer your questions, although I think I might try to get the right limb bending a little more, but hopefully someone who knows what they're doing will chime in
Title: Re: Bow for Upstatenybowyer (tiller advice needed pg 2)
Post by: PEARL DRUMS on February 09, 2018, 07:42:13 am
That right limb is quite flat 4" off the fade. Maple is maple, don't expect minimum set.
Title: Re: Bow for Upstatenybowyer (tiller advice needed pg 2)
Post by: Badger on February 09, 2018, 09:29:54 am
   How much mass weight does that bow have? I figured with a 30" draw and 5" of reflex you might want about 22 to 23 oz mass weight.
Title: Re: Bow for Upstatenybowyer (tiller advice needed pg 2)
Post by: Springbuck on February 09, 2018, 03:40:19 pm
Yeah, white woods will take some set, and I expect it, but if you are sure you haven't pulled it harder than 40 lbs, or all at once, and you kept 2" wide, that seems like it is taking set early-ish.

Have you tempered the belly yet? 

A flat belly and near rectangle cross section should be the best for distributing strain, but remember that stave had some twist and lumps. The crown is on the medium-low end and shouldn't be an issue.   Check that the limbs are even thickness side to side, though, and that the flat belly is 90 degrees to the top of the crown.  Easy to overlook. Usually you will see twist or side-leaning tips when strung if this happens, but sometimes not.  The crown may try to wander side to side and you have to follow it on the belly, or you can leave one side of the limb overstrained.

As long as you are sure you are not pulling it past the 40 lb, leaving it a few seconds on the tree shouldn't hurt.  Pulling it 42 lbs, and too far by an inch will.
Title: Re: Bow for Upstatenybowyer (tiller advice needed pg 2)
Post by: PatM on February 09, 2018, 03:51:39 pm
Tempering a bow that has already ticked and been backed seems like a bad idea.
Title: Re: Bow for Upstatenybowyer (tiller advice needed pg 2)
Post by: Springbuck on February 09, 2018, 05:45:18 pm
 Oh, yes, I forgot!  Good catch.   O:) :-[  If it was me, I'd have looked everywhere for that "tick".

  I also just remembered to look at your un-braced pic.  The fact that you have both reflex and recurves may be part of it.  Double check.  The bow should be bending most where it is widest, but if it reflexes off the handle it's easy to ask too much of the inner limbs..
Title: Re: Bow for Upstatenybowyer (tiller advice needed pg 2)
Post by: Springbuck on February 09, 2018, 05:56:16 pm
Try this.    :P :P ;D  Right limb is bending an inch (or more) farther than the left.  Like Pearl said the RT limb is flat off the fades for several inches, and compensating from there out.
Title: Re: Bow for Upstatenybowyer (tiller advice needed pg 2)
Post by: gfugal on February 09, 2018, 07:07:48 pm
Try this.    :P :P ;D  Right limb is bending an inch (or more) farther than the left.  Like Pearl said the RT limb is flat off the fades for several inches, and compensating from there out.

(http://www.primitivearcher.com/smf/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=62143.0;attach=137349;image)
So red arrows mean remove wood, and yellow bending too much?
Title: Re: Bow for Upstatenybowyer (tiller advice needed pg 2)
Post by: Springbuck on February 09, 2018, 09:03:29 pm
Not exactly that straight-forward, but those are places to look at, to compare with the other limb for instance.

Yellow arrow on the RT limb: Pearldrums is right, the first few inches of limb off the fade is flat.  About where the red arrow is, it starts bending more than the other limb.  By the time you hit the next red arrows it looks to be flat.

Left limb is bending less than the right at the red arrow, but the bend profile looks more correct.  At the yellow arrow on the left, it looks just a tad soft, but only right there at the arrow.
Title: Re: Bow for Upstatenybowyer (tiller advice needed pg 2)
Post by: gfugal on February 09, 2018, 11:03:51 pm
   How much mass weight does that bow have? I figured with a 30" draw and 5" of reflex you might want about 22 to 23 oz mass weight.
It's currently at 26 oz, so I have a ways to go still I guess. But I'm aiming for 40-50 lbs at 28 inches (well closer to 29 based on how I measure draw length) so I don't know how that changes your calculations much.
Title: Re: Bow for Upstatenybowyer (tiller advice needed pg 2)
Post by: gfugal on February 09, 2018, 11:12:47 pm

Tempering a bow that has already ticked and been backed seems like a bad idea.
Oh, yes, I forgot!  Good catch.   O:) :-[  If it was me, I'd have looked everywhere for that "tick".

Before backing it I ran my fingers across the whole back but couldn't feel anything. Then I ran a rag across it to see if it would snag. Nothing so I just sanded it again and glued on the linen with TB3. It's possible the string moving in the nock made that sound, it was very faint. By tempering the belly do you mean heat treating it? If so why would that be a bad idea. Doesn't it make the belly stiffer. If I didn't back it then I could see how it could break in tension, but supposing the backing is good, the linen should actually be stressing the belly, no? since flax/linen is stiffer than wood, maybe that's why I got set?
Title: Re: Bow for Upstatenybowyer (tiller advice needed pg 2)
Post by: gfugal on February 10, 2018, 12:57:19 pm
That right limb is quite flat 4" off the fade. Maple is maple, don't expect minimum set.
Not exactly that straight-forward, but those are places to look at, to compare with the other limb for instance.

Yellow arrow on the RT limb: Pearldrums is right, the first few inches of limb off the fade is flat.  About where the red arrow is, it starts bending more than the other limb.  By the time you hit the next red arrows it looks to be flat.

Left limb is bending less than the right at the red arrow, but the bend profile looks more correct.  At the yellow arrow on the left, it looks just a tad soft, but only right there at the arrow.

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/dbhitB5KeEMedePHmy5iWRJ1HE27OUhUpisX_JTcowMK3yAYXlcq0N2ZFlo0hT4gEtN_w6NNX2Ticj4CgI6bpXSdm2-hjgcFAysxfC5PA_Fo4a6PDIYrMriJvZuFONMZ5bMwSPBoJvql7Rt2LupWf3TRibNFyOVc94zSXtaFvEXJcNER3BxK_nWgrS26JHiWbXvi2aH4QVqU4YYWJ6NY4OACkH8jOv-QwKvyNtpYKD9ko-emjP0KOz5rpTgjgMb6xSaMi6neZng28zwDWjtlVzdJWTpxju936CvvFd91wQ_T86ULaCLkgW5_i2uJkin1giQN-W2Rm62ykMskBGrfcABR6LkubStsboNzRFSYTyympTAR2fsG5q1bALbRZW0dRN9uv99QkkD4oOzpfbPNBDxsm-uDbgXlCQonIob4ORE5XxqoAbzuFny2UY8dfqgKGVaMdsv_vwBxp86somELna7y3-0zPryUgbfC9u4avPbh4KqhAtqrAj5B7vkB_ZlEhjaBT4E0ZjJCLBb2wBwV9VNCkUAG7acN2DMGajqpktUOBDKxckQmqQoknFJmSTmGdTmoxo_wayN_LzF_ea4zjAURPhL-zghNiYHalX8I6zgYXFMLgckL03-60aKoun460MB0E_5b2tsC60BluWH6PPQ5powGNkn3OQ=w824-h618-no)

So that 4 inches where it is straight right out of the right fade is where that green arrow is? or did you mean the left limb? Cause the left looks stiff out of the fade too, just don't want to mess with the wrong side if you meant to say left side, and not right.
Title: Re: Bow for Upstatenybowyer (tiller advice needed pg 2)
Post by: Badger on February 10, 2018, 03:03:28 pm
  I see the same thing you do Greg, the left limb has a flat spot and the right limb looks fine.
Title: Re: Bow for Upstatenybowyer (tiller advice needed pg 2)
Post by: Springbuck on February 10, 2018, 03:45:06 pm
I won't argue with Badger.

Be sure that section of the RT limb where the biggest bend is, isn't doing too much due to the combination of the reflex + bend. 

Next step may be comparing an unstrung photo NOW to where you started, and look for any area that has taken more set than the rest.
Title: Re: Bow for Upstatenybowyer (tiller advice needed pg 2)
Post by: gfugal on February 10, 2018, 03:58:57 pm
I won't argue with Badger.

Be sure that section of the RT limb where the biggest bend is, isn't doing too much due to the combination of the reflex + bend. 

Next step may be comparing an unstrung photo NOW to where you started, and look for any area that has taken more set than the rest.
That's what's tripping me out, you would think the right limb would have more set, but it's the left one that has. I might post a picture when I get home. I'm not going to have an opportunity to work on it till Tuesday anyway. 
Title: Re: Bow for Upstatenybowyer (tiller advice needed pg 2)
Post by: Springbuck on February 10, 2018, 04:52:17 pm
That is interesting.
Title: Re: Bow for Upstatenybowyer (bad news pg 3)
Post by: gfugal on February 14, 2018, 10:21:18 am
AHHH UGH  (--)  :-\
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/2U-yB9imwhd2dPadEOhr1eWTo2DcBdJKrD1a4A96AANkr5VslApsN3XgVDhWQ18x0h1D8O6pcOm7vDOvXsxw8HJzqXK_dUItwLmaA2ajt7c0-ZTPiKwmYm78UrFvyG8dMyqQ2xq7exli7pSuD4aDw76iyGIHXbH_onSpKnjPlwjKeQS2vnaPjX_16QuS3COH7_WsZbc_zy090Bb64EDpD_JQnv66RUsyK9qI2A5yrqXyleYrJaid2q6RruGQ7qBaogT4aiwzjHLsfbTAE3N1A9AlntYgrm2PGpopgg9-5ZivIzml0iu4ZV8snndrv58A-UGqyr_BYj9MJFihPkSGHntgxTH5QhDPcPTFPwpQl0P0QmGBUOD7C5jNwWKQAML8dfq0HJY_nCoIzizJCK37SZnjjr9Bn3ZSmMwFFP3U05EaSo3Wv5Ns76nhaK_QsV94DyHCh_1skO_yqb66hbPawPI6ucrnVTgi8ildZz78ub_DFtqQbfO04Y7TmAoCz_C2o0pQnprUTUxK9FFs3pnPsDRs0jUMVJcQSTAZHakxbCy9o7LRT6nTOWKPraF6K7wDZB_M8W3_bXVbZHbuBGaAMDJy4oJIFPLySwg06sUsVSzeG-aW8tnqQ8UUpvz-4ERbRoPZWyUoHrVEM2kbkrTy7-VaUZb7LG6IBg=w488-h366-no)

It broke! I think I might be cursed cause I can't seem to make a bow lately for the life of me. Am I really that bad? maybe I'm doing something majorly wrong that I don't know about? For some-reason this piece of wood was getting quite a bit of set, whether that was the issue of the wood, my design, or my tillering method I'm not quite sure. As you can see in this next picture, it had gotten maybe 2 inches or more of set from the original profile on the first page.
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/GjvTOftg7RLAPYmS7CzvDQGnsKtk4SaSaWRDHhjHG8DpYG39JUDc6xEO2Mz_Pr8fktxLfttqaodReWkeCfzRLLN1SbKEeakeScY-zrTF5_tdMHei0iv_OmLwgVF9KMP58zYD1uJWTorc2nvqpbe3l8qNuONUs7hy1SEgOaadmIoyhRAGbe7bP_pWHCQhRGkTETdNloQay28qJVxdJ8V_1FwxaKDzUSaoC_OLYoPlQ-_8Kl_IU6yJBtxyYiQrGjejnatZew9C0KCrYgyOH6jiJMpDd1lTBI5yun2aEA3XK4keWcGLEvY9lWPbh-Wu7q0Y2p4n90O4fr9A4bqdiubQgAYtKBnQuHFx7V0kwFjxd3ihCI1PeDtZt7EBIzOPLwB32ruhSkjCpJ2T_Dl2h88oXJEgdKMrSirolyGipj4c-qi1f4COQtg9WFPHVLY7oQFbCldnWzTId2RJ5Dv1Va_IeUBBLwabgIXHQBTBaxYJ2YoLRNdbER7KItaNAu8KWFh8vSyHX6jjbcCg9iodByuzPbLk6U0Y7hFvagL0lp7sqN67-0FvsKazTUawNFhZ271hriBzTXFM9odP2waY1z2O5EbmtHViXzWDeAetugeggpYElEzIp2D9vfvo51hkPX4mMOzC5MpttcpVED7wZH9OqEP8gxA_hzEnmg=w955-h716-no)

Maybe my tiller was off, causing too much stress on too little area. This is the last picture I took of the tiller at 20". I had gotten it tillered to 26" before it broke at a full draw of 28" but I don't have a picture of it that far, since I didn't want to leave it strung on the tillering stick for that long. Maybe I would have more sucess if I make a tillering tree with a pully. But I don't have a place to put that at the moment since I live in an apartment.
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/_e1PTcQxQfMUs_5ncKsjufOgjuO2OCEUk5fAGuBbEjD7KyU5aX4xhZCpqEukT1m_ov99KgfFUdFHlmvM3bIdBuBgnHtYA_CySQfmCsascqFf6YqO7UUXYNautQz78Q4_o9t2HbjJjZ-mlCnEF9lsYwvmL7BjS3cbgxTK9bGomy72anf05EjtnTpkfzg2JnfDwaji0NVQd373LCPpknbXHTkG-HTunS9Vr0lGR8hX69oQZIKHk5ruesDyJqn1rHq3Y2eG4FKcOsbValq_bcMNBKHekZDaDvipDsLp894_JTyWJpE55cHhdvSpE__Ifb4ywi8By-xR_uUVt-cl9jBNKuXSwUReY1lCwGdhTlgtH49DOoDEacoYaaZEldgnpvDRDg5KiWJf_yA_76boXEMiGhdR0Do1KHyMjGQKQybWIz9APxvZBVvePez58k7K_esIpBZIR6MD0LhihRfzlBz4AUdqGbIeCzkFEty7EnhoP65ZgQvMpSNN-iMMZ-yMmKkiZ9fHD47UYtQQ4TRlpoLE-XtZW9ZZD0e1sotnnku5CvVQ-WqjXAvsa7KREFmIqNtv_Q6PKhUi8P97qf3PRvhi9SAGDlR3gmmy0oONny6tI56I7I9igVb0bSq_mnO5NwVgNzSxD_Zztu0di57l_2Ygro7z1haCCo0wlA=w955-h716-no)

I'm surprised at where it broke. It wasn't at a knot, and it doesn't look like a hinge to me. It didn't even seem like that was the spot that was taking set on that limb. If anything I would have thought the right limb would have broken before the left based on the tiller. Maybe I caused some internal damage at that spot when I was applying serious torque to fix the limb twist?

So yeah, I'm a bit bummed out. I never drew it past 40 lbs, It was 66" NTN and the limbs were nearly 2 inches wide. Ah well, I guess I'll chalk it up to experience and move on. Unfortunately, that was plan B for Upstantenybowyer. Plan C is to see if I can somehow mend the previous bow I was working on for the trade, as it didn't officially brake yet, but I'm not too hopeful. If that doesn't work I think I might just have to respectfully bow out. I gave it my best, sorry I couldn't deliver.
Title: Re: Bow for Upstatenybowyer (Bad news pg 3)
Post by: Hans H on February 14, 2018, 12:27:37 pm
I'm sorry, Feel with you. A few weeks ago  I had nearly the same  problem with an snaky BL
Hans
Title: Re: Bow for Upstatenybowyer (Bad news pg 3)
Post by: JWMALONE on February 14, 2018, 01:15:29 pm
You can make an apartment friendly tillering tree with a pulley. Get you a piece of 4by4 and a 6 foot 2by6. mount the 4by on the end of the 2by with a pulley mounted to the 2by directlt under it,then another pully on the other end of the 2by. Then you stand on the 2 by. I saw that some where seem to work for the fellow.
Title: Re: Bow for Upstatenybowyer (Bad news pg 3)
Post by: Selfbowman on February 14, 2018, 02:21:43 pm
The set tells me the outer limbs have too much mass. Either in thickness or width . That one  I can't see in the pics. It should not have failed do to that though. It was looking good! You will get out of the slump. Just get another stave and get with it.  Arvin
Title: Re: Bow for Upstatenybowyer (Bad news pg 3)
Post by: stuckinthemud on February 14, 2018, 04:07:40 pm
Argh, oh for Pete's sake, i don't believe it ,didn't see that happening, gutted for you !
Title: Re: Bow for Upstatenybowyer (Bad news pg 3)
Post by: Jim Davis on February 14, 2018, 04:21:52 pm
I've got two cents I don't need:

The best tillering the world has ever seen will not prevent breakage if you try to get more weight/draw length than the wood can stand.
Title: Re: Bow for Upstatenybowyer (Bad news pg 3)
Post by: upstatenybowyer on February 14, 2018, 04:32:03 pm
I've had bows fail where I had to use a lot of force to remove a twist. I think it could weaken the wood for sure.

No worries buddy! It means a lot to see the determination you've put into this. Lord knows I understand how tough it can be to make a quality bow without it exploding. I've had more than my share of failures.

Don't get too discouraged!  ;)
Title: Re: Bow for Upstatenybowyer (Bad news pg 3)
Post by: bjrogg on February 14, 2018, 05:32:51 pm
That's when I do some knapping or build some arrows or tan she some hides. Then I come back to a new stave. It just happens. The tiller didn't look to bad. I do like pully for exercising limbs. Wish you had more space. I'm impressed with your determination you'll win.
Bjrogg
Title: Re: Bow for Upstatenybowyer (Bad news pg 3)
Post by: Springbuck on February 14, 2018, 05:49:54 pm
I've got no answer, man, sorry.  Both the inner halves of the limbs look pretty darn good to me in that last pic

 MAYBE you could have put a little more bend in the outer half. (?)   But, at least from here I can't really give you an answer.

That's a "for reals"  break, too, complete and sudden.  Sorry.   Don't get discouraged.  Good luck.