Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: NorthHeart on January 08, 2018, 09:22:00 pm
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Im interested in seeing what a short native style bow can take, hopefully without it going "boom". This bow is a pretty basic bend in the handle bow, no sinew. Its 48" OAL, 4" handle slightly thicker but still bends, worked to a ring, rawhide backed, 1-3/16" wide the entire length, flat profile, pretty much looks like a board. Its darn stout just getting it to 6" brace, and from there ive taken it out to 60# @ 20". How far do you suspect it can be pulled? Am i pushing it by going any further?
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Not much is bending except the handle so you can probably get another 4 inches if you work the mid-outer limbs.
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If you just want to see what it can take you need to monitor the condition of the wood as you advance the draw length. You might also consider getting the outer limbs working. Almost all your bend is in the handle area. I see just a touch of set just outside your handles, that means that area has already reached its limit. You need to get more wood bending to take it further. If you are just looking for the point where it will fail then just keep pulling it and see where it fails.
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The outer third of your limbs don't appear to be bending. I would get those moving next.
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Gentlemen here we are tonight, 65# @ 22". Removed wood mainly from tips and a tad from mid limbs. Appears to have taken more set. Maybe thats just part of me pulling the bow as far as i hope too without breakage. Or maybe im not tillering carefully enough.
Is set from where you pulled the bow back and left it to thick in a spot, or too thin? I know thats a noob question but im not fully convinced yet from the bows ive built. Add in the fact that it was never perfectly straight to begin with(actually had some reflex but not perfectly even from even limb to limb) and its still less clear to me.
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I am with the other guys, I think you still have to make the outer limbs bend more to go further in your draw without busting the bow.
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I thought i removed quite a bit of material from the outter limbs, but looking at my pics from last night they do still seem straight.
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Set means that you have already surpassed the bows elastic limits and have entered into a much less efficient plastic range. The areas that are taking set are areas that have too much strain on them because they are bending too much. Maybe you could back off the weight to 60# and get the other areas bending more.
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Run a straight edge along the belly from fade to tip. Watch the air gap between the straight edge and the belly change. Where it is more narrow you mark and remove material. Its as simple as it sound. The gap should close slowly and consistently the last 10-12".
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Badger thanks for explaining that, makes sense. PD, that reminds me of that tiller gizmo some folks use. Id like to get more familiar with how to use your straight edge method. So the bow should be at brace when you do this right? What if you remove wood via this method at brace but yet the limbs arent bending evenly...which takes precedence?
Tonight i worked the limb tips down some more and also removed material along the entire length of the belly, were talking just course-grit sand paper at this point. The bow is at 63# @ 23". I shot it for the first time with the limb that has more set(right limb on the tiller tree) as the upper limb. I figured that mimicked positive tiller. I can only pull it to 21", and i was suprised that it had almost no hand vibration and was pretty darn quick with my 555gr test arrow! Yes it took a bit more set, well now that ive pulled it to 23" i wonder if i call it a 22" bow for safety and call this one good, or do i work those tips down just a tad bit more?
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Looks pretty good, but yeah, maybe the outer 1/3 - 1/2 of each limb could work more.
Mind, those short bows always tend to look a bit stiff in the outers, due to the way the string angle starts to pull at more than 90 degrees to the limb tip for extreme draw lengths. In other words it's almost pulling along the limb rather than trying bend it... dunno if that makes sense.
In the words of arguably the UKs most respected bowyers (when I was saying I might take some off the tips off a flight bow)
"You can always lose more weight off the tips" ;D
I think a reasonable/sensible limit is draw length = half the bow length.
I made a Yew sapwood short bow from an off-cut and then added a Yew heartwood belly strip just to see how far I could abuse it. It has the same sort of tiller shape. I even had some muppet on Facebook telling me it was all wrong ::)
It's pretty extreme, and can only bend like that 'cos its Yew... took a deal of set too, but it's a good demo' bow :)
(It actually manages a 28" draw from a 47" bow)
Del
PS. My "standard" advice is pull it til it breaks then ease it back a tad ;)
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240m3srt,
This is far from perfect...but it may help and give you some idea, handle and middle bending with stiff outers...Try to get as much limb working as possible on these little bendy's...Hope this helps...
Don
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You can use a straight edge at brace or partially drawn on a tiller stick/tree, which is what you see in that pic. The bow is drawn about 18".
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Donald that's a great example, sexy sexy!
To the original question of how far a bendy can go, you must understand a little about AMO draw length(which is what most people use i think). if you have your tiller tree set up for this, you are measuring from a point 1.5" (i think) forward of the BELLY of the bow. So a 28 inch draw would measure 28" from the BACK of a bow with a typical 1.5 inch handle. If your handle is thicker(on the belly side), then your bow is going to be more strained, thinner handle = less strain. (this is actually true for any setup if you use the same one for all your bows, amo or not)
What this means is that a bendy bow that is .5" thick at grip, with equal length limbs as a bow with 1.5" thick grip, drawn to 28" feels 1" less strain (strain on the bendy bow at 28" = strain on stiff bow at 27"). Downside is it may also stack more near the end of the draw.
So if a good rule of thumb for stiff-handled bows is draw length max = limb length then bendy draw length = limb length +1"-ish (Generally speaking, all else being = ).
My humble 2¢ worth.
If you actually read all of this nonsense you are very patient, or a glutton for punishment. ::)
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Your pic helps a lot Donald, i see the difference of the profile of mine and yours. What was the final draw length, and how long overall was that bow? Do you have a pic of it unbraced, did it take any set?
K-kat you make a good point about taking the width of the handle into account and ive often considered this, so i reckon on this bow which is pretty thin in the grip area im actually pulling the bow back closer to 22.5" in reality as measured from the back. However, i would like some clarification on the last part of what you wrote. Do you mean if your bow is 48" and bends through the grip that 25" would be a reasonable draw length? Next, lets assume you have a 56" long bow with a grip and fade total of 7", then the draw length would only be 24.5"? Also, i assumed you meant to divide by 2. What happens when the tips are stiff do you subtract that from the overall limb length?
I know factors like limb width, reflex, design and especially rawhide or sinew backing would affect things. But i would like to have sort of a base formula to know going into each bow build. Up to this point i've just been taking the overall bow length minus 10% divided by 2, and for sinew the overall bow length divided by 2.
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When working with wood which is always different your best gage of how far to draw it is to just learn to monitor the condition of the wood as you build the bow. Which is basically watch the set. You can't avoid a little but you want to try to avoid as much as possible. If it is taking set in 1 area then that area is bending too much so you would need to slightly lower the draw weight and get other areas bending more to extend the draw length further. No real formula once you get started but going in I like to figure about 1/2 the length of the bow on a bendy handle bow. You will see a lot of examples here of 48" bows drawing 28" some of them with stiff handles. Some of them took too much set and some of them took hardly any at all. Really important to learn how to monitor your wood.
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240,
It looks a bit better now but your string angle is at 90 degrees so I think you are done.
When you shoot that bow it is going to be a bit shocky on you because of how much the handle is bending.
Donald's tiller is excellent.
Jawge
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240m3srt,
Yes, I did lose a few inches of reflex...These pics show starting floor tiller and then finished tiller unbraced...It was 55"ntn and 54@25...
Don
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To answer your questions:
The formula i gave was limb length, not bow length. eg for a 68" stiff handle bow with 8" grip (1.5" thick) and fade area you would have each limb about 30ish inches long. A bendy bow with 30" limbs would be 60ish" inches overall, the grip actually being part of the limbs since it's working . All else being equal, both bows could potentially be drawn to 30", but the bendy bow would be feeling the strain of only 29" draw, meaning you could potentially get another inch of draw to have same strain as the stiffgrip bow.
The point was just that bendy's can typically be drawn a little further, not a hard and fast formula.
Don't get caught up in particulars, listen to Badger and listen to the wood. :BB
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Mr. Burchett knows of what he speaks....especially with "bendy" bows. I have several of his bows and they shoot wicked strong and fast. None have "worn out" nor taken a lot of set.
One other thing, please dont get caught up in the "quest" of a short bow pulling past your ear.....if you want to shoot English style stance and draw then make an English Long bow if you want to get the most out of your short bendy SELF bow then modify your technique to more resemble that of the Native Americans. You noticed that said self bows, if ya want that gorilla draw and a thumb ring then go with the "primitive composite" Asian Hunic or other type "horse bow". (horn, wood, syahs, and sinew)
I have posted several deer kills with so called "shorties", "bendy" or what ever else they get called and even at 24-25 inch draw and medium weight they drive my stone point arrows hard and kill clean......Native Americans used 'em cause they were good bows , sturdy, easy to make and easy to replace.
rich
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Thank you all for the technical advice regarding set and dimensions, i will apply that toward my other builds. Afterall, i assume im not the only one that works on more than one bow at once, right lol.
Half eye its interesting what you said. I shoot this and other shortbows pretty well. I move my head further toward the string when necessary in order to anchor, i also hold the bow much more canted than normal. Like you said modify your technique. Its funny cause in the trad world theres all these rules about the best way to shoot, back tension and form. Doubt the natives on horseback gave it so much thought, huh? I would also be very interested to see your Burchett bows and kills, tried to search but me and the "search" feature here dont get along to well. I dont know too many other people that hunt with shortbows and stone points so this stuff is pretty interesting to me.
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I did lighten it up, and go just a little bit further last night and pulled it to 24" on the board which i guess means 23.5" really. I think the tips are bending a little more now but something i didnt tell yall is i have sheep horn tip overlays epoxied on. Dont want them to pop off if the tips fully bend, hasnt been an issue so far.
So yes it took a bit more set, as i figured it would. But this brings up a couple other questions that will help me on my future builds. If i had worked that area on the right limb better from the beginning to where it didnt take that set, wouldnt the limbs be uneven as far as where they lined up on the grid. Or perhaps im looking at it @$$ backwards. Also, this is the first bow ive built where each inch of draw is pulling 5-6 more pounds rather than the standard 2-3. Is this stack? What is this really telling me as the bowyer?
There is something else im trying to understand, Tsoukalas mentions string angle 90 degrees....to what? When i look at the string itself it appears to create an angle a bit over 90 degrees. Ive read a bit of TBB and such but really i get a lot more out of feedback from you guys and by DOING ;)
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Yup, fine example of stacking, and a HUGE indicator letting you know not to pull a bow any farther. This bow isn't at 90 degrees yet, but you are getting there. I'd say you have a good tiller now and a bow that should not be drawn over 23".
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I think the tiller looks good now and judging from what I think are 4" squares on the background matrix it looks like you have ~ 1.5" of set which is really totally acceptable in my opinion for such a short bow. I would leave it and I think this will make a great shooting short bow.
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240m3srt,
You really improved that bend sir... :BB
Don
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Tiller looks very good now.
String angle is the angle between the string and the tips and the time when the bow begins to stack.
Looks like that has improved too.
Nicely done.
Jawge
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The red lines I drew in show what string angle is. You can see its just about 90 deg.
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Just a tad under 90 degrees but very close, I think you could get another 1" or so.
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That's lookin good 240! What is the final weight? I bet she's still snappy!
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Thank you guys for all the help with my improvements, and facilitating a better understanding. PD thanks for those little lines that helps a lot, so string angle is a measurement in reference to the TIPS specifically?
Guys i cant believe how this bow shoots! I can only draw it back to about 21-21.5" and with FF string shes shooting at 140-143fps with a 555gr arrow. Super quiet with no string silencers and very little hand shock. For comparison, my longer reflex stiff tipped/stiff handled hunting bow "Anastasis" only goes 137-140fps. For such a basic bow to build with no fancy reflex/backing(other than rawhide)/etc i still cant get over the speed and shootability.
Should i expect this bow to settle in some over the next 100-200 shots and loose some speed? Do yall think sinew would have slowed it down? Also, how much will a horse hair tuft affect speed?
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Like you said modify your technique. Its funny cause in the trad world theres all these rules about the best way to shoot, back tension and form. Doubt the natives on horseback gave it so much thought, huh?
I would say,they may have given it some thought,and realized it was not going to work,in their application.Try shooting in the manner needed for their application,with "Proper target form" and see how it works..Watch the Video,,of Howard Hill,,attempting to take a buff,from horseback..You will notice his form change quickly...
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no sinew would not slow it down
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I've really enjoyed this thread.
I have a piece of 52" hhb that I've been eyeing up for a shorty and maybe a piece of yew if I'm careful.
For my bows I use my "functional draw length" which is from where my hand contacts the handle to the arrow nock. Much less confusing for me. I can then measure the distance to the back easily for AMO draw length. For me handle where it meets my left hand to arrow nock is 28" for "proper form" so I have a black mark at 28" from this point on my tillering bow. I had a couple bows where I overdrew them on the board because of forgetting to account for handle depths.
For this particular bow if the tips were flipped slightly, as seen on various native American shortbows, allow more draw length with the improved string angle? Or would the limits of the wood be met at about the same place?
I like how that tiller looks at the end. After I finish my molly, I'm planning a shorty next!
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so you would be drawing an arrow to the field tip or head about 29 inches,, this is the strain the bow would feel,,
double that and you get about 58 inches,, that would be a good starting point for a bend in handle with sinew,
for your 52 inch wood,, make the best bow you can ,, get the most you can,, and the draw length will be what it is,,
probably around 25 or 26 before string follow off sets any gain in performance,,, you would get from increasing the draw,,
keep in mind your funtional draw can adapt to a shorter bow with practice,, it is more work, but very doable,,better to have a funtional bow,, than trying to get too much draw from a shorter stave,, (--)
Proper Form is very subjective,, when shooing a bow with 20 inch draw,,, your form will vary quite a bit from a 29 inch draw bow,, (-S
that being said there are guys that get quite a bit more than normal draw from a short bow,, but have made alot of short bows and know how to push the limit,, )P(
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I actually shoot my wifes bow anchoring with my thumb joint touching the groove in my chin, works about right. I would like to see it do around 25".
Thanks for a great thread.
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I have the art work done on this bow, i think it flows nicely into the sheep horn tips. Im just waiting on the clear coats to completely dry before adding my grip and posting a few pics.
My friend brought me a nice tuft of horse hair. Im still wondering if this will slow the bow down or negatively affect the way it shoots considering that from a functionality stand point i would be adding unnecessary mass to the tip of one limb. The idea is cool, but nothing about it seems good concerning how the bow will react. Any one who has done some before and after shooting with horse hair tuft?
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The affect of that horse hair would be so small it is negligible.
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Pony hair would be quieter since they are a little hoarse.
(A) ;D
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Pony hair would be quieter since they are a little hoarse.
(A) ;D
Best said in a whisper.
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Pics as promised.
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Bighorn sheep overlays...
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I really like that bow. Excellent job!
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Looks good. We need a full draw pic.
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Being a bit under the weather i drew the bow indoors today. I have the flexible arrow rest installed 1-1/4" up from the center. Ive always done mine between 1" and 1-1/4", what about yall?
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Very nice, thanks :D
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I have to say the paint jobs on this one and your last bow are way cool. Good job!
Mike
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Turned out really nice. I love the paint job. I usually do about an inch above center also, can't say I've ever measured it though.
Tattoo Dave
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I'm a huge fan of short bows. Most of what I make are sinew backed. Nevertheless, what I didn't notice being said in the thread is an expansion of the 90 degree string angle topic. I'm only mentioning it because of the safety issue it presents. When the string angle exceeds 90 degrees, there is a chance the string will slide off the nocks nearing full draw, especially when using a pin style nock. Of course, you can imagine the catastrophe and possible injury this could present. I turn the tips back slightly to give me a bit of an insurance policy against this happening. The general rule of thumb for a bendy handle bow is that your max draw length will likely be half of the nock-to-nock length of the bow. So for a 48" bow, you can expect a max draw of 24". Nice work on your bow. I especially like the artwork. I wish I could paint like that. If I did, I wouldn't need snake skins.
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I didn't see the finished product until now. I think you have done a fantastic job on this short bow. Everything including the art work looks great! You have made a lot of cool bows over the past few weeks, you must be working night shifts on it :)
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Glad you guys like this bow!
MWir-thanks for the advice regarding string angle and draw length.
Philipp, I have in fact been working on them almost every night. )P( Here at the lodge there is plenty of downtime, and not much else id rather be doing than learning to build each one a bit better than the last. I appreciate everyone's generous help, this forum really is an asset and a great place to share our ideas and methods.