Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: JWMALONE on February 11, 2018, 02:59:48 pm
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Hello Guys, So I'm in over my head maybe but what the hay. I have two pieces of ipe 1 3/8 wide 13/16 thick, two backing strips a bamboo and a white oak. Ive never done a R/D or worked with boo or ipe so I'm using the oak first to keep it as simple as possible.
Due to a slight wave in the grain the oak backing will make a bow 59 3/4 long (here after referred to as 60). So this is my idea.
60 inches t2t 1 inch wide parallel through the middle tapering to .5 or smaller at the tips, BITH bow with SLIGHT R/D. My actual draw is 26.25. My shortest bow to date was 65 inches.
Gluing in the R/D is no problem as I've done similar stuff for chair rockers and such. How does the design sound, am I on the right track here?
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That should be fine, I use white oak quite a bit to back ipe, I really don't see any performance diff between that and boo but the boo is a bit tougher.
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That's what ive read about w oak. This way ill know what the difference is in tillering a R/D vs straight limb without the added complication of boo.
Well I said R/D but I think its only reflex. I'm doing it like Pat B in his hickory backed lemon wood build. Hopefully I can skip the part were the backing snaps. This backing appears to be in good shape but who knows?
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Reflexing will be fairly easy but trying to get deflex in the ipe will be difficult if possible at all. Ipe, like other tropicals don't bend well with heat. You could cut the ipe in half and splice it back at the handle adding deflex.
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Should be great. Deflexing, as PatB says, is a little tougher with a thick middle BITH bow, and especially with ipe. I usually avoid really high reflex in narrow, thick bows, anyway. Maybe just move most of the reflex toward the tips, and count whatever set it gives you in the middle as deflex!
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My plan is what Spring buck said. Don't know why I put R/D in the post? Ya see I need help lol. Also I'm going to floor tiller the belly before glue up. I'm using Pats build along as a guide.
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Following this with great interest JW. I’ve got several 3/4” x 5 1/2” ipe boards that have a handful of bows hidden in there somewhere, just gotta pull the trigger on it. I look forward to seeing what you do and picking up tips from this thread.
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Well guys, I scraped one of the belly tapers in. Started at the end of 4 inch handle area at 13/16 to 7/16 at the tip. Not hard to work at all. Ive dealt with other dense oily tropical hardwoods over the years, so its what I expected. tomorrow ill get the other limb and I will be able to tell if its close enough for glue up, I think it will.
Question, I don't think I have any acetone will alcohol or mineral spirits work to prep the ipe for glue up?
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John, what I've done is sand the glue surface just before glue up and brush the dust off with a good, clean brush. By doing this you shouldn't have to degrease. I've heard that solvents will bring oil to the surface. I discussed this in the hickory/lemonwood bow thread.
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Thanks Pat, I must have missed that one.
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Well fellows, I've got both belly tapers roughed in, 13/16 at handle area down to 7/16 at the tips. Its still 1 3/8 wide and plenty stiff. So I guess I should rough in the profile leaving some room for future adjustments. 1 1/8 wide and taper to 5/8 tips for now. If I keep floor tillering as is, I'm thinking I wont get a true idea of what needs to be done in preparation for the glue up.
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Well this is it we shall see.
(https://i.imgur.com/eMZPefnl.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/FU0pGRil.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/EKFDwOPl.jpg)
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What glue did you use John?
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Meant to use tight bong original, grabbed tb 2 by mistake. Oh well.
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I think TBII is the strongest of the three. Looking forward to seeing your results.
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Honestly Pat I couldn't tell which is stronger. I base my opinion on what I was told when I was younger, so its more habit I guess. Never had a problem with any of the three tell ya the truth.
My step father gave me some silicon based stuff that's a sealer and adhesive, comes in a tube like caulk. That crap will stick and bond to any thing, one day I'm going to try it, its also very flexible.
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I've used all three over the years and never had a failure.
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How long do you leave yours in the clamps with a reflex?
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For ipe TB original is rated the highest, for most other woods TB3 TB2 is still fine and works great.
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Thats interesting Badger, I worked for an ole timer years ago who would only use tb original on stuff like teak, mahogany and any thing dense or oily.
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How long do you leave yours in the clamps with a reflex?
I learned to leave it longer, and in good environment for drying than other glues. I used to jump the gun a little at 24 hours or less, and it would creep back out of the form more than Urac or epoxy used to.
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Well Guys, I took her out after 24 hours. Didn't want to stress it tonight but I done some scraping and rounded the corners good. It only has 5/8 reflex, I put a 1.5 inch block under the tips but forgot to allow for the handle thickness, it kept most of what I put in it. With the backing its 3/4 at the handle, 5/8 mid limb and 1/2 at the tips, she don't bend much at all. I'm happy so far.
(https://i.imgur.com/3xNKuw5l.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/Zqu8uRHl.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/r82705Ql.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/uO0cohfl.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/bKKhaRFl.jpg)
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That thing is gonna be a rocket launcher. :OK
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What makes ya say That Pat?
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Hey Guys, I'm tillering this bow and the Perry reflex I glued in 5/8 is now up to 7/8. I remember reading about that but cant remember where. I understand the reasons for it, is this bad? Does this mean I need to do something different or just keep going as is.
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With some woods you will get a little increase in reflex as you thin the belly.
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Its up to an inch Pat. Looks good though, its nice and even. She moves about 5 inches now.
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I'm saying, she's gonna be a rocket launcher. :OK That narrow profile and now she rearing back getting ready to punch.
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She looks like shell be a good one. It has a swirl, not a knot in the grain about a third from the tip. Doesn't seem to be a problem for now but I'm keeping an eye on it. We will find out.
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I'm with Pat! That increasing reflex is fine if it's not a ridiculous amount, and if you hit the tiller.
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Its only an inch so far, I don't think it will turn into a magic bean stalk. Is this common with all ipe bows? I would imagine it is. We will see how muck it keeps after its shot in, then ill know how much to glue in on the next one.
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I've made three Perry reflexed bows and they all gained reflex in the early stages of tillering. I know one of them stopped gaining at about 20"(draw length) and then started losing reflex(set?). I think it gained a couple of inches and then lost maybe one. Still a net gain.
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Well guys she is dead, but she went out with a bang. Took ten minutes to find all the pieces. I'm sure I done something wrong, it was only at 45 pounds went it went and 1/4 inch thick were it blew on both sides.. I had pulled it to 55 on the tree while checking tiller many times. So I'm thinking several things.
1. My reflex wasnt smooth enough, it didnt look abrupt or all in one spot, but it could have been more evenly distibuted.
2. That backing felt awfull dry, I used it any way. Wasn't crazy about the grain either.
3. That ipe looks really dry on the inside for a tropical wood. Ive worked with other oily woods like mahogany and teak they never look that dry when you split it.
4. Bow gods mad at me.
But both limbs went simultaneously in the exact same spot. Right before or almost in the most acute area of reflex. there is also a swirly spot in the grain there but only one side. I'm thinking this was my screw up.
(https://i.imgur.com/hGVCXMkl.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/Qp5foY7l.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/ngbzFggl.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/jdYB6P5l.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/c0CLJgHl.jpg)
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Looks like your grain configuration was off in both pieces. The appearance of the Ipe being dry is typical despite it being oily.
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Yup, if I can see what I think I can see, it appears you have some severe grain run-off on the backing.
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How was it off? I have another piece that's identical.
Also I pulled it way further than I should have after switching trees. A good 5 inches, so that most likely done it.
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Drums I knew better than to use that. Now I know
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Grain rules the wood bow world, self or backed.
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Yea I know, but ive made red oak bows with grain like that that never blew.
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What you have got away with does not translate across all wood types and combinations.
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Yea I know, but ive made red oak bows with grain like that that never blew.
Yet. The true measure of bow quality wood isn't attained until you've ran 2500-5000 arrows through it. That's when the cream rises.
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Well ill use bamboo next, think I can figure the grain on that. That's the second backing strip ive used the first I got was cut specifically for bow backing. Now we know. Thanks guys.
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Who selected and cut it specifically for bow backing?
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The first one I used successfully was hickory backing I got from three rivers I believe. This one came from a local guy.
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John, the ipe followed the grain where it broke as did the backing.
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Yeah, you might have gotten away with that grain wiggle on the belly, but not that big diagonal run out on the front, esp if the whole backing had grain like that. Too bad! :-[
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grain can still have spiral runout even if the annual growth ring lines are straight.
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Dang brother, I hate that!
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For future reference, Ipe differs A LOT from one board to the next. I've made self-bows from Ipe that held up just fine from one batch of wood and then couldn't get even a backed bow from another batch. It is also very difficult to read the grain on it. It can be quite difficult to glue up as well due to the oils and sometimes it will spring off a lam and shatters itself. I know a lot of people make BBI bows now and am sure there would be someone who could let you know how to ID a good piece of Ipe from a crap piece.The only thing I noticed from the good batch that I bought is that it wasn't as dense as the second batch, it was easier to work and had a more reddish-brown colour. A good BBI bow is supposed to be one of the best possible combinations for a laminated bow, so it is worth trying again.