Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: NorthHeart on February 11, 2018, 10:04:51 pm
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I have a stave Weylin gave me(thanks buddy)! I was told its Sassafras its the most amazing wood ive ever smelled. I wasnt sure it was gonna work due to some end checks and rotted area near the handle but now that i removed the area in question it appears i have a nice piece on my hands that obviously wants to be a bow. The most questionable area was the knot and wavy grain so i made that the 7" the stiff mid area. Youll notice a bit of brown on the back in that entire area, thats where i heated it knowing it wouldnt be bending there much and i did this to get the tips to align. Its 60" and a little over 2" wide. I chose a thick ring and chased it like it was Osage. I heat treated the entire belly. One limb had reflex naturally so i added reflex into the other. I was thinking of rawhide backing it with one or two layers. I have only ready a couple threads on Sassafras and noticed they kept it wide all the way down the limb until the tips. Was hoping for yalls advice. Is the reflex ok? Heating the belly i hope was an ok idea? What should my belly look like flat or rounded or hollow?? Theres a really cool stripe running down the side im pretty excited to be working with a new (to me) species of wood. Lets see if i can manage to make a bow from it.
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How dense is the wood? You might want to consider that in your design. I have never worked with sassafras so have no idea how elastic it is.
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I don't know sassafras either, but that's a pretty shorts stave for a stiff handle flat bow, At least for most woods. However, it looks very clean, the back ring smooth and well-worked, your reflex is nicely distributed, and the handle isn't longer than necessary, etc. You are going to get something good out of it, I bet.
You have MY interest.
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Sassafras is very soft and brittle. I predict an exercise in futility. Don't like to discourage, but I'll be surprised if you get 30# out of it. It is not bow wood.
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240M,
Sassafras is awesome, just not for making bows. I did manage to make one a few years ago, but it was really long, bendy handle, and very light draw weight.
Good luck, let us know how it works for you.
Tattoo Dave
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I would agree with Jim and Dave. Although, last year at the Marshall event I was handed a very short, sinew backed static that pulled 90# plus and looked great. I question whether I was truly holding a sassafras bow because it was too heavy in hand, sinew or not. I think the fella was mistaken, but I cant prove it. Often times you ask 100 bowyers if a certain wood is good and 99 tell you, "no". Then there is that one who says its wonderful bow wood. I don't buy that :) There isn't magic bowyer dust available that can make one bowyer build incredible bows from suspect wood while the rest of the bowyers fail.
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"Mulberry, sassafras, bois d'arc, southern cedar, black locust, black walnut and slippery elm, are valuable woods, in the order named."
Check out this recommendation. He's got it ahead of Osage! ;)
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That's one F'ed up list, Pat!
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Pat, I have to wonder who made that list. Some people have a hard on for osage and love to list woods ahead of it. As far as I am concerned osage and yew are both right at the top with osage being considerably tougher but yew being a bit faster.
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History, guys!
It's a quote from The Witchery of Archery.
The next sentence says that no native woods can compete with the English made bows, particularly those of laminated Hickory and tropical timber. Thompson's favorite was Snakewood backed with Hickory.
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Kinda' like being taught the history behind Chris Columbus "discovering" America :)
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Some people have a hard on for osage and love to list woods ahead of it.
This seems contradictory.
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Like the word, bad. It can mean bad or it can mean good depending on how you use it and how you say it. Its a Merican thing :)
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I made one from it long ago and craved root beer while making it.
I made it wide.
Jawge
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I think sassafras was one of Will Thompson's favorite bow woods if I remember correctly.
I made a few sassafras bows early on in my bow building but I don't remember anything about it.
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Pat I believe Mr. Thompson is the fella PatM quoted above. Mr. Thompson wasn't wrapped tight :)
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Maurice was the writer, Will was his brother. Whatever you think of his bowmaking knowledge, the book is a must read.
You can find it online.
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Got to agree with George, that is what root beer started from! I vaguely remember getting sassafras roots, and trying to make it. Probably tried stick bows, too - about 65 years ago :BB (--) >:D!
Hawkdancer
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They, Will and Maurice killed lots of birds plus a few other critters with their bows. They also shot thousands of arrows.
Pat, I got my copy many years ago and go back and read it every once and a while. I agree, it is a must read.
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The Witchery of Archery is a great read.
I remember taking out a copy as a 12 year old kid from the Adams Library in Chelmsford, MA. It was a thrilling read for a young kid who'd been absolutely nowhere and loved archery. Got my own copy now.
Don't judge them for their bird killing. It was a different time.
I think they were Confederate soldiers and were not allowed to have firearms after the war so bows were their weapons.
They made a living selling bird feathers. There was quite a market for them back then for ladies' hats.
Jawge
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Oh, I don't blame them for bird hunting. Actually they wouldn't shoot pileated woodpeckers because they were few and far between at the time but they did love shooting the more plentiful Ivorybill woodpeckers. Like you said, George, that was another time and they as surrendered confederate soldiers were not allow to own or use firearms. I give them a lot of credit for doing what they needed to do to survive. The archery world would sure be at a great loss without the Thompson brothers.
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I agree, it's a must read. I read it a long time ago and loaned my book to someone that never gave it back. I bought another one about 5 years ago because I wanted to read it again. The book is great if you're a native Floridian and want to read what this state was like back then along the St. Johns River around Astor and Starke. tick Island is part of a Management hunting Are and still has the mounds and is wild country.
There's a section in there that will make you think about why tuned arrows are important. Might be a reason they shot thousands of arrows.
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You can read it in its original format in the ArcheryLibraryonline.
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To be fair, the Thompsons were kind of locked into the idea that longbows, similar to the English, were the only "proper" bows. I assume their ranking of bow woods reflected that fundamental opinion, and that the list may have been different if they had tried more styles, like NA types and flatbows.
I have seen only a few bows on here and PP.net made of sassafras, but some. I'm curious.
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Sounds like there's not enough real-life examples of Sassafras bows to judge it's quality as a bow wood. I'd be absolutely stunned if it compares to osage, mulberry or yew though.
240, I say make an average weight bow with a conservative design using Badger's tillering method and let's see what Sassafras can do!
P.S. I'm pretty sure a tonic made from it's extract was the only known remedy for syphilis at one point (just a little history for fun) so it was highly valued for that. -C-
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"Mr. Thompson wasn't wrapped tight" ??:)
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He may well have been influenced by the "Georgia/Florida moon shine". We ain't paid no whiskey tax since 1792. >:D! Haven't read those books!
Hawkdancer
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I read WOA about once a year. Started a Sassafras bow several years back and have not finished it yet. I think there is a thread on here. The wood is pretty light but not as light as juniper. Both are scary bow woods and probably the longer and wider and flatter the better. I am looking at mine leaning in the corner with a red cedar about the same degree of finished and thinking, I will get to that soon. Maybe I will after the garden chores and then of coarse turkey opens in March. Oh well! Maybe this summer. You know the Dukes of Hazard was based on the thompsons. Your Mama would not understand. "They keep showing my hands and not my face on TV" Waylon J.
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I started a sassafras bow once, I found a patch of the trees that were all stove pipe straight and picked what looked like the best 10" one to cut.
I split it into staves and debarked it only to find the wood was full of dark inclusions similar to bark inclusions. The area around these inclusions was like chalk. The wood went on a burn pile and ended my interest in making a sassafras bow.
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This one is still alive and shooting.
http://www.primitivearcher.com/smf/index.php/topic,41491.msg555139.html#msg555139
Dave (DVS) made a bow for the auction at MOJAM last year from a stave I gave him. Ask him about it.
I guess I have some of that magic dust in my shop ;D
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JonW thanks for posting that link that provides some hope and inspiration. I have plenty of rawhide and i cant come up with a good reason not to add the cheap insurance. Ill degrease this stave and get the rawhide laid down in the next few days, then work the width down at the tips. Maybe give it 2 weeks to dry then get it to the floor tiller stage and see where we are.
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Rawhide on and thinned a bit, not yet to floor tiller though. I didnt mention it, but this stave was dry and grey in color kinda like a fence post that had been outside for years, that could make be an issue, but hey it smells good and its pretty. Whether it wants to be a bow or not were about to find out.
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Whoa! That reflex looks like my hickory stave! Probably smells a lot better though! :BB >:D
Hawkdancer
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Sassafras has an off white coloration anyway. That shouldn't be a problem unless it wasn't handled properly when cut.
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Heart wood of sassafras is very rot-resistant But of course you probably have sap wood at least on the back.
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Got some tillering done on the long string up to 40#. Im looking at an area on the left limb in the center, it appears to my eye to be bending more. My concern is that in that area its much thicker.
When push comes to shove what do you give precedence to...how uniform a limb appears visually, or what the tillering tree tells you(even if its significantly thicker in the area of question)?
Im thinking whoever said this might end up a light bow is correct, the tips are already quite thin in thickness. It feels like red oak to me. Oh well give me your suggestions on tiller its gonna make something or it aint!
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240, let the wood tell you...If it's bending then stay off of it...Is that the area you mentioned grey discoloration...
Don
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From your top view pic of your future bow with parallel width limbs looks like a gradual thickness reduction is best.Take your time and good luck.
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240, let the wood tell you...If it's bending then stay off of it...Is that the area you mentioned grey discoloration...
Don
Thanks Donald. On this bow ill pay less attention to the thickess of the wood and pay full attention to the BEND of the wood. Do you apply this concept to every bow design? Ive heard it both ways from different bowyers...but havent made enough bows yet to form a solid opinion.
Regarding color...it might be hard to tell but you can kinda see that in the pic the color of the wood almost matches the old grey board the tree is on. From the back down through about 1/3rd of the thickness it is more whitish, where i left a little bit of the sapwood on.
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240,
With a "stave bow" there can be so many different variables that could cause thickness differences in a tillered bow...Knots, ring thickness, grain, etc...I have never had two limbs exactly the same thickness after final tiller...I think we have all been to a point where we say why isn't that limb moving because it looks thinner in that spot...The way I see it, if it's bending, I move on to the stiff area whether its thicker or not, the wood is telling me it's bending here...With your Sassafras, I would suggest using as much of the limb as possible to relieve stress, no long stiff tips...Just my HMO...
Don
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240,
Another variable that will throw you off if you are looking at thickness taper is crown...So many times I have had undulating crowns in a stave...High crown in one area and a few inches down the stave you run into a flat crown...From the side view during tillering you can see thickness differences...The high crown will seem to be thicker... to answer your question, I may not apply this concept to a laminated bow...I would apply it to a stave bow everytime...I must say, I have never had a finished bow balance on its static fulcrum perfectly...In other words one limb was always slightly heavier than the other due to possible wood density which is another variable...Thicker rings on one end and thinner rings on the other is the norm...Let that stave tell you what it wants...
JMHO, Don
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Donald that explanation helped so much, thanks for going into such detail. Those are some of the same things i have noticed when looking at a stave but i really needed to hear someone else confirm it.
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Thanks 240,
I want to see the full draw when your through...I have never worked Sassafras but read it can be a critical wood to bend from previous posts...You take your time and show us a bow...What ever happens, we can learn... Keep us posted...Use all that limb...We are in your corner...
Don
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Got the bow braced to 4", pulling 26" @ 13". It kept some reflex too. Well see...
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240,
Looking good man...From my screen looks like a couple scrapes just out of the upper fade...And a few at the bottom outer...Nice reflex so far man...I usually exercise 25 to 30 pulls between scrapes to get it moving...Sometimes a second eye is refreshing, JMHO...What do you see...
Don
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Eric's Gizmo is the perfect tool for a straight bow. You cant mess it up and it doesn't leave it open to opinions, for the most part. I would suggest using one on this bow. That wood wont give you any excuses or errors.
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240,
Here's the picture we were discussing...Hope it is helpful
Don
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Don! And just like that a picture says 1000 words. Thanks bud, ill hopfully get a chance to work on it tonight or tomorrow.
Pearl- I have never used a gizmo but read a lot about them, i will be building one soon i imagine.
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Took a bit more wood off last night. Braced the bow to 4.5" and pulled it to 28# at 15".
I think that left limb (lower limb in the previous pic) is starting to take some set in the area that i was originally concerned with. Its still thicker there...but immediately drops of to being much thinner in the outter limb. I'm wondering how much thinner i should be willing to go to get it to bend more? Btw, i'm trying to leave the very last 1-2" stiff so the overlays i added a few days ago don't pop off.
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240,
That lower limb looks gorgeous to me...Looks like it's shaped and ready to be taken out as you reach your weight...I looked at both pictures and seen the set you were talking about...All I can say is set happens with every wood...I can't weigh in on Sassafras's characteristics as far as compression goes, I have only used it for tea...Keep us updated...
Don
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Well Don, she held up tonight braced at 6.5", and pulled to 33# @ 18.5". Here's the pics.
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240,
Left limb looks awesome and your almost home...I see a slightly stiff area that I would adjust before going any further...Also JMHO, I would stay with a 5" brace...Unstrung profile still looks good...Nice work man!
Don
33#@18.5 puts you somewhere approximately 60#@28 AMO
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Great teamwork guys. Don, very cool of you to help him through to the end.
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Tillered the problem areas. Reduced brace 1"(btw, im measuring brace from the back of the handle). Pulling 30# at 18.5". I got one spot on the right limb(top limb) a bit too thin near the edge, it might be tweaking the limb a bit. I have marked this spot so as not to remove any more material off that edge in the future. I cannot figure out why it took more set when i both reduced the brace height and removed wood in the problem areas.
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If you have reached your draw length, I would say you need to get some arrows flying, before you go any further. Don't be concerned about the string follow now. It will be what it will be. Radius what you need to and get rid of the tool marks and shoot, shoot, shoot so you can see what to do next. I'm no expert or even a pert but I believe you are close to some kinda line here. If you cross it you can't go back.
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240,
You nailed it, that looks awesome from here!...At some point you are going to have to pull that baby to your intended 45#...I think it's time, your bend looks evenly distributed...Exercise your way out to 45# and reduce until you reach your intended draw length...Your set is "very acceptable", remember this is a 60" stiff handle Bow...Don't let set get to you bro, it's gonna happen, your tillering is good, just take what the stave gives you...
Don
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I agree with Don, set happens. The zero set thing we read about is fairy tale. I have made a pile of bows in all configurations and woods and have yet to build a zero set bow. Its impossible.
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Thanks guys. I thought i was doing something wrong. Nice to hear how bluntly yall put it regarding set. We try to minimize it but its GONNA happen. Got it. Ill see about getting this bow out to full draw length either tonight or when i get back from a wedding i have to go to in TX. Joy...hey i suppose it coulda been me huh :NN
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NO! you weren't doing anything wrong! Remember, toward the beginning of this thread, doubts were even expressed about any level of success.
Set DOES happen. We all hate it as bowyers, just viscerally. Low set is possible and desirable, but I haven't ever made a bow that took zero set, either. I've made SOME that took only an inch or inch and a half, but........
It seems as we have all learned experimented over the last 20+ years on the internet, the standards seem very high. But, uncertain woods and short bows are a challenge already. This is a shining success so far!
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Guys im back! Silly stuff like sheep horns and finalizing my move to MT been keeping me busy, but i got the Sassafras all done. :BB
61" OAL. Just a hair under 40# @ 24" after final sanding. 500gr arrow @ 130fps, id fling one at Whitetail:) . Artwork inspired by Modoc Native American designs. Check out the grip area, gnarly huh?
Springbuck thank you for the inspiring words. Pearl thanks for keeping tuned in as well.
And Donald Burchett...thanks again for your patience and the step by step tillering advice all the way through. My eye for good tillering is still in the developmental phase lol. But you have brought me much closer on knowing what to look for. :)
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more pics...
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Beautiful work. :D
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and more...
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Wow!!! 240, You put some finishing touches on that Sassafras...Love the paint and the handle is gorgeous...I would say you have an eye for tiller looking at that final bend man, excellent...Happy to see a successful build on a challenging wood :BB Great pictures also...
Don
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Looks real nice! Like the paint job styling! Wiiliams have to look for a sassafras stave at MoJam! You did a good job , :BB :BB :BB :OK :OK :OK!
Hawkdancer
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Nice bend on that bow, good job :)
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Way to see it through to the end. Great artwork on the back and a nice tiller.
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You did justice to that nice piece of sassafras.Congratulations!!
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Outstanding 240!! It was a shock to see that finished bow pop out on the puter screen. The bow looks as good as any I have seen. Maurice and Will would be proud. You have inspired me to finish my sass bow.
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Really enjoyed this post. The bow is a beauty.
Thanks,
Greg
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Hey, so glad to see it work out! Looks great.
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Really cool bow!
Thanks for posting it
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Wow, that is some bow. Great work. Tiller is spot on.
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Thanks guys she is one of the most interesting i've made so far, both art work and wood choice wise! As for tiller i owe so many thanks to Donald and credit goes where it is due. (-S