Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: Ryan Jacob on February 28, 2018, 06:19:39 am
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So I got lucky and found out that the gardening shop across the street sells 10 foot long and atleast 4 inch wide poles of bamboo, fresh cut to boot. Now if I do buy a pole, would hide glue hold up to wood om wood backing?
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Hide glue held together a lot of Yumi bows. You have to use it properly though.
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PatM
As in groove, size a couple times, wrap, and let cure? That’s what I’ve heard.
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Grooving is not necessary with wood/Bamboo, that is used on horn, but sanding is good
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If you are going to the trouble to make a bamboo backed bow, why not spend a few extra bucks and use a proven glue that is stronger than hide glue?
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Isn't hide glue proven? ;)
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I used a lot of hide glue when I was starting off and don't remember having problems with it. I switched over to fish glue already prepared and I liked it a bit better but it tended to stay tacky where it was exposed to the air on sinew.
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Hide glue was used exclusively historically when they didn't have epoxy or wood glue. So yes it is proven. However, it will take much longer to dry and cure than a modern glue, and it can't get wet while in use.
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I have to agree. Hide glue is very, very proven. But, I would opt for a modern "water proof" glue. I would like the work time it offers and its less susceptible to climate change.
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I think Ryan might have previously mentioned difficulty obtaining glue where he is.
edted to confirm. "
"" The TruValue here in the Philippines doesn't stock titebond 1,2,3 or any goo epoxys. Sorry about the confusing part their, I meant easy access to glues. I'm only 13 so shipping is a no-go. I'll heck out the build along threads though I do wish I had more access to bow making glues. Would hide glue work well in a high humidity country?"
I do wonder if plain old yellow carpenters glue is available.
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I think Ryan might have previously mentioned difficulty obtaining glue where he is.
edted to confirm. "
"" The TruValue here in the Philippines doesn't stock titebond 1,2,3 or any goo epoxys. Sorry about the confusing part their, I meant easy access to glues. I'm only 13 so shipping is a no-go. I'll heck out the build along threads though I do wish I had more access to bow making glues. Would hide glue work well in a high humidity country?"
I do wonder if plain old yellow carpenters glue is available.
Well, the Chinese bows were made with Hide Glue no? and some parts of China get pretty humid, but that's a good question. How does hide glue hold up in hot temperatures at 75-95% humidity? It just might take longer to dry, and it might not bond as strong but maybe strong enough.
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I don't know that answer, Greg. What I do know is it doesn't take much heat to become a liquid again. And, I'm sure the change in climate effects we sometimes see on sinew backed bows cant be solely attributed to the sinew, the glue has to "give" as well.
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Didn't the Chinese use fish glue? It's a little more waterproof I think.
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They also used birchbark and lacquer.
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My point is; speculation is one thing, actual experience is another. How many of us have made a bamboo backed bow with hide glue. I haven't read about anybody doing this on the PA site but could be wrong.
If anyone has done such let us know how it came out and held up. I don't expect there to be many hands raised because we all chose a better glue. Boy, I wish the old Urac was still around.
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I have. It held up fine but I don't live in the Phillipines.
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You don't count, Pat. Anybody else? Hands?
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Nope. I trust hide glue's strength, but I would wonder about gap filling, drying time, and surface mating.
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I have never done it but comon sense tells me it would work with all the caveats above and proper prep , it's been used in composite horn bows for thousands of years , Fish or fish bladder glues claim to fame is longer open time ,I don't think there more moister proof , no proof of that tho , but have used the yellow croaker bladder glue & fish skin commercial glue ,both great glues , you would need a type with longer gel (open) time like those in order to get the boo on ,smooth on or urac would work much better with a heck of a lot less prep and technique !
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Also, for anyone asking, I can’t find the yellow carpenter glue, and I doubt elmers school glue will work. Also, will ants eat the hide glue over time?
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My point is; speculation is one thing, actual experience is another. How many of us have made a bamboo backed bow with hide glue. I haven't read about anybody doing this on the PA site but could be wrong.
If anyone has done such let us know how it came out and held up. I don't expect there to be many hands raised because we all chose a better glue. Boy, I wish the old Urac was still around.
Bamboo on wood no but wood on wood yes. I haven't shot it in many years but the bow is still holding up
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If a sinewed or laminated wood bow using hide glue is exposed to temps above 150 F or 50 C I would let it cool before stringing it up and shooting and that depends on how long it was expose to those temps too,but as to it's toughness for holding in normal enviornments I would trust it and do myself.
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Ryan
What different glues do carpenters and wood workers use for glue in your area? We might be able to help you make a choice.
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If a sinewed or laminated wood bow using hide glue is exposed to temps above 150 F or 50 C I would let it cool before stringing it up and shooting and that depends on how long it was expose to those temps too,but as to it's toughness for holding in normal enviornments I would trust it and do myself.
And why is that Ed? I find that once hide glue is dry it is one of the most heat resistant glues out there
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Willie
The glues used around here are gorilla glue, mightybond, marine epoxy and latex glue. I’ve tried the marine epoxy and it seems too brittle. Laminated some thin bamboo together and broke when I tried to bend it. The bamboo bent fine beforehand.
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If a sinewed or laminated wood bow using hide glue is exposed to temps above 150 F or 50 C I would let it cool before stringing it up and shooting and that depends on how long it was expose to those temps too,but as to it's toughness for holding in normal enviornments I would trust it and do myself.
And why is that Ed? I find that once hide glue is dry it is one of the most heat resistant glues out there
If the hide glue has been cured fully yes.If under a year of curing I'd watch it.I should have mentioned that as part of my comment.
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Marc do you thing its as heat resistent as oven cured Smooth on ? Im not trying to be a wise A$$ just curious ?
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Marc do you thing its as heat resistent as oven cured Smooth on ? Im not trying to be a wise A$$ just curious ?
I don't know what temps you are talking about here but I heat-treated a sinew backed bow with no ill effects to the glue or sinew
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The Turks repeatedly oven rejuvenated their flight bows. Not sure what temp they used though. You would still want it to cool before bending as high temps probably still put hide glue into the equivalent of the glass transition temp of epoxy.
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Its interesting topic , I didnt know hide glue could take higher temps , good to know ! I know the turks reheated tillering & hot boxed there flight bows but dont know what temps ! Ea-40 clamed it can resit up to 250 Deg F if cured that way for 2 hrs. I wouldnt want to try it.
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Marc....How long had the sinew backed bow you heat treated been curing because heat treating a bow temps go way beyond 250 degrees F.Why do you think too hot of hide glue shrivels sinew?Too much heat turns leather into bacon shriveled up.I gotta be leary myself.I've used steam to shrink and thicken wet rawhide before I know.
Kuddos to you for getting that heat treating done.Did you put more reflex into the bow when heat treating?
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Willie
The glues used around here are gorilla glue, mightybond, marine epoxy and latex glue. I’ve tried the marine epoxy and it seems too brittle. Laminated some thin bamboo together and broke when I tried to bend it. The bamboo bent fine beforehand.
Ryan
Did wood workers recommend those glues? I bet there is better choices available. What can you find out about local fish glue?
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Marc....How long had the sinew backed bow you heat treated been curing because heat treating a bow temps go way beyond 250 degrees F.Why do you think too hot of hide glue shrivels sinew?Too much heat turns leather into bacon shriveled up.I gotta be leary myself.I've used steam to shrink and thicken wet rawhide before I know.
Kuddos to you for getting that heat treating done.Did you put more reflex into the bow when heat treating?
That is where people confuse wet sinew and dry sinew. Try subjecting a piece of dry sinew to 200 degrees F to see if it shrivels. Once the sinew backing is dry then you can heat it, doesn't matter how long it has been curing it just needs to be dry...
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Yes I agree.There's a limit though I'm sure.Now that means you can leave a cured sinew bow inside an enclosed sealed car in the sun then without any damage.Just a bit of poundage weight increase is all,but if the bow is not cured totally and used or drawn delamination can occur and for sure loss in draw weight.
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Willie
The glues used around here are gorilla glue, mightybond, marine epoxy and latex glue. I’ve tried the marine epoxy and it seems too brittle. Laminated some thin bamboo together and broke when I tried to bend it. The bamboo bent fine beforehand.
Did the bamboo break, or did the glue joint just delaminate? It also depends on how far you were bending it. If it delaminated I probably wouldn't use it unless you had to bend it in over its self before it delaminated. But if the boo just broke after glue up I don't think that's the issue of the glue. If you bend two separate pieces together they don't act like a composite. They act as two separate thin laminates which can bend much further then they would if properly fused together.
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Willie
Yup. Not to mention I’ve already checked around whenever I could for some good glue. As for fish glue, it seems to be a diy project though I can buy fish bladders easily. Heck, I probably have some in the fridge.
gfugal
Yeah the bamboo gave way, I tested a leftover piece of epoxy that got stuck on my workbench, very rubbery and strong
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ryan
i saw some white glue made by the same company that makes mighty bond, pioneer? maybe. although I would try an epoxy again. I use a boatbuilding epoxy that is used for laminating glass fabric. it is thin but there are techniques to make it work. some formulations have additives to make them rubbery or useful for some things but not others. Hard to tell, but if there are specialty additives in what you tried, it will never be as strong as straight resin.
I find better results if I mix very well, and then mix again, especially if I am mixing a small amount compared to the size of the mixing container. not fully cured is another reason it can seem rubbery also. I mix by weight not volume to get the proportions correct, as that too can make it rubbery. I dont much like rubbery epoxy if your glue line is properly thin, good epoxy is flexible enough.
Heck, I probably have some in the fridge.
this is primitive archery, so fish glue might be the way to go if you are building a primitive bow :), If you want to play around with fish skins/bladders, find something like a small electric double boiler that you can keep at about 180F or lower (this is probably an outside/shop only project, as it gets smelly and takes time) If you want to experiment with something like this, post as you go along. I think you will get some interest and comments here.
You know guys. You don't need to boil your hides or sinew down for glue. Just put a roast or chicken in the oven with some water and after awhile pour off the water. You will have some glue and diner at the same time. :)
and there is always knox, which I believe is more of a bone glue. some guys mix the fish and the hide
http://www.primitivearcher.com/smf/index.php/topic,2803.0.html
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Willie
Yup. Not to mention I’ve already checked around whenever I could for some good glue. As for fish glue, it seems to be a diy project though I can buy fish bladders easily. Heck, I probably have some in the fridge.
gfugal
Yeah the bamboo gave way, I tested a leftover piece of epoxy that got stuck on my workbench, very rubbery and strong
If the bamboo broke I'll probably say your glue is good enough. So at least that is an option for you if the fish glue doesn't work out.
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I'm really surprised you can't find just some regular epoxy. I have seen it in the corners of shops in rural Taiwan, in out of the way, slummy-looking alleys in China, and in pretty poor sections of rural Mexico and Brazil. Seems so ubiquitous.
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The marine epoxy he had would probably work fine too. Guys use West epoxy even though it's not really designed for bonding.