Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Flight Bows => Topic started by: Del the cat on April 01, 2018, 12:52:22 pm
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Managed to shoot the Osage flight bow (made from one of Clint's staves) off the fingers rather than using the shooting machine.
I got 341 yards ;D using a 28" arrow at about 80#
The best arrow of the four I shot was Cedar with an Elm footing (added to convert a 26" arrow to 28")
310 grain, 7.85mm max diameter, Tip diameter 6.36mm, Nock diameter 7.15mm
40# static spine, fletchings Greylag Goose 30mm x 6mm length x height.
Del
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Good shot Del
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Del, do you have a spread on th arrow weights you shot and how they did?
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That’s good shooting Del! You broke the 300 meter barrier with a self bow! Sorry guys that’s a thing on our side of the pond O:)
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Del, do you have a spread on th arrow weights you shot and how they did?
The two best shots were only about a yard apart and they weighed 263 and 310 gn.
The two that were consistently shorter 343 and 455 grain. The heaviest was solid Ipe that has now been cut up for footings.
They are all about 40# static spine.
More detail on this post on my blog (written up before todays shot) the arrows 1 & 2 were the best.
https://bowyersdiary.blogspot.co.uk/2018/03/new-pb-for-distance.html (https://bowyersdiary.blogspot.co.uk/2018/03/new-pb-for-distance.html)
Del
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This is some great results! You are in the zone where the arrow is gone out of sight the moment it is released. These kinds of leaps in performance are pretty energizing. This would be a good one to try out at the Bonneville Salt Flats! You might come close to the existing Unlimited Self Bow Record with good shooting conditions.
Was this with a fast-flight type string? A good linen string can come pretty close in matching performance.
Alan
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Yeah, Astro flite string prob about 8 strands I think...
Del
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Very nice Del
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Nice shot Del. What gets me is the fifty pound class is 340 yds . I wonder what Dans arrow weighed. Arvin
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Congratulations! That sure is very impressive. Nice to see light arrow working better than a heavier one. It means you shoot a fast bow, with good release!
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Nice shot Del. What gets me is the fifty pound class is 340 yds . I wonder what Dans arrow weighed. Arvin
I believe Allen Case built the arrow for Dan Perry in that shot . I am pretty sure it was well under 200 grains.
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Nice shot Del. What gets me is the fifty pound class is 340 yds . I wonder what Dans arrow weighed. Arvin
I believe Allen Case built the arrow for Dan Perry in that shot . I am pretty sure it was well under 200 grains.
Dan Perry’s Record Self bow arrow 154 grains and just under 24” long. It has a mild barrel shape to it with a smoothly rounded over brass point. I used pheasant feathers for the fletches. Construction is split cane (hollow center) joined with hide glue, and maximum diameter around .24”. The nocks are multipiece Turkish flight arrow style with a thin silk wrap for reinforcement. Dan’s bow had large stiff levers with a linen string.
Alan
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Do they use an overdraw devise with these short arrows?
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Do they use an overdraw devise with these short arrows?
No overdraws are allowed for the self bow and primitive simple-composite. Dan Perry’s Record 50# selfbow Record was without overdraw despite the short arrow length. The Primitive complex-composite division allows an overdraw and the Primitive Turkish division allows a sipur-style overdraw.
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That's even more impressive.
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I believe they have the two inch deep handle rule which allows you to draw an arrow as far as you dare to the belly side.
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The skill of the flight shooter is a huge part in these classes. It is not hard to make a 50# bow that will shoot 350 or even 400 yards with a light arrow. The trick is getting it out of your bow cleanly and building an arrow that can carry that kind of distance without pooping out on you. The archer and the arrow are at least 70% of the equation.
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I believe they have the two inch deep handle rule which allows you to draw an arrow as far as you dare to the belly side.
That’s a good point about the maximum handle depth. If I were making a self Flight bow, I would use all 2 inches of the depth allowed, and I’d draw the arrow as far as possible before it starts to fall free of the belly side of the shelf. This is where the bow was drawn to in order to verify the draw weight. I should have a picture or two of Dan’s bow. I don’t think he took full advantage of the handle depth.
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I usually find myself stopping at least 1/4" before it falls off more often about 3/8 I think.
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Even if you are not drawing to the max even half the handle would be an extra inch of draw which can make a fair bit of difference if the bow has it in it.
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Just curious, if they are measuring a 5 curve would they put a straight edge across the back and measure the two inches from there?
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Just curious, if they are measuring a 5 curve would they put a straight edge across the back and measure the two inches from there?
They go by the handle
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If I were making a self Flight bow, I would use all 2 inches of the depth allowed, and I’d draw the arrow as far as possible before it starts to fall free of the belly side of the shelf. This is where the bow was drawn to in order to verify the draw weight. I should have a picture or two of Dan’s bow. I don’t think he took full advantage of the handle depth.
Please could you be more specific - I don't understand what is advantage of the full thickness handle. Of course it is more rigid but it was not the point now. If draw weight is always measured to the belly side of the handle and arrow length is fixed, then handle thickness is insignificant. If the handle is for example five inches thick and it is protruding towards the back side of the bow (like reverse handle) - no meaning in view of measuring draw length. If the handle is protruding towards belly side of the bow (like conventional handle), what then? With five inches thick handle the brace height will be very low - or the bow overstressed. How you could get more draw length or more stored energy or some other advantage with very thick handle?
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The trick is the same as with siper. You get to use shorter arrows. So in this case 1,5 - 1,75" shorter.
Nothing to do with poundage and energy storage. Actually, handle in front of the bow would be better. You could shoot shorter bows and shorter arrows with heavier poundage.
150 grain arrow is awesome. I think its doable with pine/spruce at 22"...maybe. I will definitely try these tricks on summer.
Sorry about OT in Del's topic, but flight is too interesting!
edit: But wouldn't it be the same if you just skipped the thick handle and lowered brace equal amount? I'm baffled after all.
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If I were making a self Flight bow, I would use all 2 inches of the depth allowed, and I’d draw the arrow as far as possible before it starts to fall free of the belly side of the shelf. This is where the bow was drawn to in order to verify the draw weight. I should have a picture or two of Dan’s bow. I don’t think he took full advantage of the handle depth.
Please could you be more specific - I don't understand what is advantage of the full thickness handle. Of course it is more rigid but it was not the point now. If draw weight is always measured to the belly side of the handle and arrow length is fixed, then handle thickness is insignificant. If the handle is for example five inches thick and it is protruding towards the back side of the bow (like reverse handle) - no meaning in view of measuring draw length. If the handle is protruding towards belly side of the bow (like conventional handle), what then? With five inches thick handle the brace height will be very low - or the bow overstressed. How you could get more draw length or more stored energy or some other advantage with very thick handle?
It's also about the power stroke
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Arrow length id not fixed. A longer deeper arrow shelf allows you to use a lighter shorter arrow for the same draw length.
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If minimum arrow length is 24", then it can be considered fixed. And it is fixed if you compare two different bows with different kind of handles. Then, maximum distance between belly side of the handle and string is 24 inches. It is insignificant, what kind of the handle is. And power stroke is always the same (if arrow is 24"). If the handle is very thick toward belly side, then limbs are stressed more compared to forward handle, whereupon the bow can be reflexed more - for same stresses. Lets suppose that brace height is for example 4" (brace height is always distance between string and deepest point of the handle or arrow pass point=).
It is balance between arrow length, power stroke, brace height and limb stresses - and handle thickness is insignificant variable (supposing fixed length).
Please clarify...
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If minimum arrow length is 24", then it can be considered fixed. And it is fixed if you compare two different bows with different kind of handles. Then, maximum distance between belly side of the handle and string is 24 inches. It is insignificant, what kind of the handle is. And power stroke is always the same (if arrow is 24"). If the handle is very thick toward belly side, then limbs are stressed more compared to forward handle, whereupon the bow can be reflexed more - for same stresses. Lets suppose that brace height is for example 4" (brace height is always distance between string and deepest point of the handle or arrow pass point=).
It is balance between arrow length, power stroke, brace height and limb stresses - and handle thickness is insignificant variable (supposing fixed length).
Please clarify...
The handle depth allows the archer to set the deepest part of the grip at less than the 2” total depth to allow for bow hand clearance, yet leave a bit of a shelf extending rearward to create a small overdraw. Simply lowering the brace height has its limits. Too low, and the typical self bow loses efficiency, the archer experiences painful string slap, and the arrow Flight becomes very difficult to tune for a finger release.
My own opinion: This handle depth rule has been in place since the beginning, but I have also questioned the value which some of these dimensional limits adds to the competition. The intent was to limit building out the handle depth to create a large overdraw, but I don’t know why this should matter. I feel the same is true for the minimum 23” arrow length. Why not allow it to be 14” like all the other bow divisions? For primitive Flight bows, I feel it makes sense to regulate the materials and how they are used. Fortunately, the Primitive divisions are mostly divorced from traditional or historical design style requirements and I feel allowing different styles to compete head-to-head is a strength.
Alan
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If minimum arrow length is 24", then it can be considered fixed. And it is fixed if you compare two different bows with different kind of handles. Then, maximum distance between belly side of the handle and string is 24 inches. It is insignificant, what kind of the handle is. And power stroke is always the same (if arrow is 24"). If the handle is very thick toward belly side, then limbs are stressed more compared to forward handle, whereupon the bow can be reflexed more - for same stresses. Lets suppose that brace height is for example 4" (brace height is always distance between string and deepest point of the handle or arrow pass point=).
It is balance between arrow length, power stroke, brace height and limb stresses - and handle thickness is insignificant variable (supposing fixed length).
Please clarify...
You need to test that for yourself to see the difference.
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Thanks Alan I will shorten the arrow rest on one bow and add a1/4" to another. 23" min arrow length
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The handle depth allows the archer to set the deepest part of the grip at less than the 2” total depth to allow for bow hand clearance, yet leave a bit of a shelf extending rearward to create a small overdraw.
So you mean that optimal handle would be like pistol grip? Then it makes sense.
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Even of left as a "Hill" style grip, it still makes sense.
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I think that by rounding the top of the arrow rest and having a bit more arrow rest helps the arrow come off the bow smoother. I am new at this so y'all may laugh at me for a while. That's ok . You will just find something else to laugh about latter . There is always my spelling and grammar. Arvin