Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: junseld84 on April 08, 2018, 11:55:16 pm
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Hello All. I am working on my first bow and I believe i've created some beautiful firewood instead. After improperly sealing my osage stave back in 2016, it developed a drying check right down the middle of the back on one end. I was able to chase a ring just below the check, resealed it and thought everything was good. I finally decided to rough out the shape of the bow tonight and found I was sadly mistaken. I found flaws in the wood between the grain on both the sides and the belly of the bow once I started removing wood. Am I correct in assuming that my inexperienced and unskilled hands should put this one aside and start anew?
The bow is currently 64.5" long, 1/2" wide tips straight tapered down to 1-1/4" fades. The limbs are currently 3/4" uniformly thick. The handle is 1-1/4" thick. There is only one knot on this stave and I hope I left enough material around it to keep it happy.
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Pics of the belly....
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Junseld84,
Take it to floor tiller or to brace and lets have another look...Maybe some of the checks will disappear during the process...You have a lot of reduction left...I have seen Osage shoot for years with a wind checks...As you stated this is your first bow and you will gain some experience in the process...May be a bow inside ;)
Don
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Thanks for the response Don. I will do just that. Even if this one doesn't work out, I really enjoyed working with the draw knife and scraper. My plan was to work the limbs down uniformly until they started to yield enough to get a better idea of what's going on. Does that sound like a decent approach or are there special considerations I need to make given the issues?
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I can see cracks in the belly, but do they go all the way through to the back of the bow?
My current hunting bow is an Osage that has a long, 10-12" long longitudinal crack like those ones that developed in the back of the bow running right through the handle and into the bending limbs on both sides of the handle. It has a couple of other longitudinal cracks in the bending limbs as well. I noticed the first long crack just after sanding the bow for finishing. I put some super glue in it for a little insurance, and then finished the bow. I've been shooting it as my primary shooting and hunting bow now for over a year, and I'm quite sure I've put close to 10K arrows through it, or more, and it has endured beautifully. It has also been backpacking with me in some pretty rough country twice now, and endured a bit of abuse, and still just as snappy as ever. I'm about to replace it as my primary bow, but only because I love building bows and I'm getting close to finishing this year's hunting bow.
Like Don said, I don't think you should give up. I think you should just stay the course, and when you're getting close, run some super glue along the cracks for insurance and let it seep in there (I don't think the super glue is necessary, just comforting). I think there's still a good chance you can get a shootable bow out of it. If by chance it does break, you've gained some valuable experience. As I was told when I first started this gig, you're not a real bowyer until you've broken your first bow. ;) (--) I really Hope this isn't the one you break, and that you look more like this when you're done :BB, so don't lose heart and keep at it.
Good luck!
Eric
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Thanks stickbowbeard! I don't believe they run completely through but i'm unsure of how deep they go. I don't see any signs of them running through the rings at the end of the bow either.
I've already resigned myself to the fact this is probably just good practice for the next one but i'm willing to see it through to the end. If I end up with even a lighter weight working bow, i'll be thrilled.
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Since moving to about 8000 feet in very dry mountains I've been dealing with alot of cracks. Even seasoned wood has to be re-seasoned here, or maybe climatized might be the right word. I'm not an expert at dealing with them but have made a few discoveries.
If you have access to a diabetic and Titebond thin superglue...I've found the needle from a syringe fits perfectly over the nozzle end of the superglue bottle. This allows you to stick it down in the crack and fill it from the inside. You can get several uses from the needle if after you're done, tip the bottle upright, put a wad of papertowel or something absorbative on the tip of the needle and give a few squeezes to get the glue out and force some air back and forth through thw needle.
Works much better than trying to drip superglue in to the cracks and helps to eliminate voids from trapped air bubbles.
ETA: this is the 2 oz bottle
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I have about 12 staves just like it, you can have them all free of charge. Fire pit is the next stop for them.
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I can see cracks in the belly, but do they go all the way through to the back of the bow?
My current hunting bow is an Osage that has a long, 10-12" long longitudinal crack like those ones that developed in the back of the bow running right through the handle and into the bending limbs on both sides of the handle. It has a couple of other longitudinal cracks in the bending limbs as well. I noticed the first long crack just after sanding the bow for finishing. I put some super glue in it for a little insurance, and then finished the bow. I've been shooting it as my primary shooting and hunting bow now for over a year, and I'm quite sure I've put close to 10K arrows through it, or more, and it has endured beautifully.
Eric
Yup, doomed to failure. You probably only got another 100,000-200,000 shots or so before it fails catastrophically or ends up taking so much set that it only bloops an arrow. (-P
Maybe you better start a new one, just in case.
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Back and belly checks can be filled with superglue as suggested and will probably cause no more problems. Side checks are another issue, every bow I have ever made with side checks failed, every one. Side checks show that the wood is delaminating and there is no cure for this ailment.
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The side checks would concern me also. I do have one bow with a side check filled with thin superglue that has shot many arrows and is holding up fine.
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From the looks of it, depending on how wide the bow is, I think you can still get at least a 30 lb bow out of this if you remove the belly all the way past the side-check, as long as it doesn't turn toward the back as you get deeper. I think it's still worth giving it a try. I have a 58# Osage bow that I don't think is much thicker than that would be, although the limbs are pretty wide for an Osage bow.
Good luck!
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I wasn't joking about a pile of them you can have, or anybody that wants to come and get them out of my shop. Free, central Michigan area.
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Thanks all. I've been unable to work on this as much as I'd like over the last month but I hate dead threads with no resolution so I figured I do a mini update. I've worked bow to floor tiller stage, then started to do some minor heat bending to correct prop twist and curved limbs. So far its held up well to all the abuse. Unfortunately, as I worked the thickness down on an old belt sander, slowly taking a little at a time, the belly crack exposed itself more and more. It now runs the entire length of the one limb, directly down the middle. There is a smaller parallel check near the end that's about 6" as well. The side cracks have almost disappeared as I worked the sides down, so that's a plus. I put a bit of reflex in the bow so that put it back stiff enough that I needed to take a fair bit more wood to get it flexing again. I also have a twisted handle that i'm trying to contend with. The limbs took the heat gun and moved extremely easy but this handle is fighting me. It's currently 1 3/8" at the fades with a straight taper to the nocks. I'll try to get some pictures up tonight for reference. Thanks again for the advice so far.
P.D. I'm in KY or I would definitely take you up on that offer.
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KY.......That's a good state to live in. Anywhere close to Louisville?
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Like others said back and belly checks that do to runoff the sides are probably ok. Superglue theme and clamp them. At least that's what I've done.
Side check are an issue though.
Jawge
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Sometimes they are junk and sometimes not, when I get a piece like that I just work it down until all the checks are gone and see what I have left to make a bow, side checks I am talking about, the back and belly as has been said, if they don't run off the edge will usually work out OK. As far as your mishandling , it could have been you and maybe not. Osage is like that sometimes, you never really know until you undress it. ;)
Pappy
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Hey Pearl if you want to bring some of those staves to Marshall I'd take em. I'm sure if nothing else I can make some more kids bows for our 4-H group. Better than making firewood, got plenty of dead ash for that.
Bjrogg
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Danzn Bar, i'm in Lexington actually but I grew up just south of Louisvile.
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Hi all,
Just a quick update to keep this thread going. I've had very little time to work on this project so I've not made it very far. I've added a handle of padauk to add needed thickness to the handle section and because I like the accent. I hope to do the tip overlays in padauk too. I have it up on the tree with a long string and have it bending relatively well to brace height. At brace height it's pulling 17lbs which I'm assuming means that I'll fall well short of the 55 lb goal weight. The one question I do have, should I add the tip overlays before I finish tillering or wait until the end?
P.S. Sorry for the mess in the pics, I'm working in less than ideal conditions.
Handle
https://1drv.ms/u/s!AqEuko9Cwco9iL9DqOu9Q6P_ROg7aQ
Relaxed
https://1drv.ms/u/s!AqEuko9Cwco9iL9B3-igxMzVD29Wsw
Drawn
https://1drv.ms/u/s!AqEuko9Cwco9iL9AmQ5ptAQHv0ZfQg
Thanks everyone
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When to put on the overlays seems to be an individual choice. Some think it's a waste of time to put in all that work and then have the bow break. Others don't. I glue them on when I'm ready for the long string but don't do any more than make then smooth enough so I can string the bow. I use thick CA so there is just time for a coffee and I'm ready to go. If the bow does break you can re-use the tips, just saw them off neatly and put them somewhere so you can find them again.
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Thanks DC, that was kind of the picture I was getting while reading through other buildalongs. I want to do them just to try it, so I'll go ahead an add them before moving on. Also, something about the draw weight was eating at me as the bow seemed a lot stiffer than the draw weight I was measuring with my digital scale. So I had read somewhere to hang weight off the string and that would give a better picture. So I shortened my long string to a low brace height and hung 25 lbs off of it. It barely budged, so I bumped it up to 40 which is at least 10lbs less than my target and it stretched to about 25". Part of that was the string stretching too. So I'm in good shape to get close I think. I just thought I'd make an update because I know everyone was losing sleep over me missing my target weight! I'll post more tillering pics when I get a proper background to contrast it with.
Thanks everyone.
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Good luck! :BB. Hope that piece works out!
Hawkdancer
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Thanks Hawkdancer.
I've made a little more progress on the project. I was able to rough in tip overlays, added a decent backboard to my tillering tree, made a string and braced the bow. I've worked down the stiff limb to get the two bending close to the same. I've taken a few photos so show all the imperfections remaining in the bow and the bow at different draw lengths. I'd appreciate any feedback on the tiller as my inexperienced eye in conjunction with the bends and knots in this bow have me not so confident at the moment. Also, I have worked the tips down to 5/8" wide and was planning to go a bit thinner. As far as the thickness back to belly, do I need to trim down the mass there to get the tips moving a little better or do those look about right?
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Here are pics of the imperfections.
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More flaws pics...
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Finally tillering pics..
Unbraced, it took a little set after the first bracing but still has some recurve.
Braced
@18"
@26"
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Well I'd say that piece of firewood probably tought you a lot. I probably would be worried about that check in the side and probably a couple others but it was just firewood right.
I think your left limb looks a bit stiff mid limb but I'd stop just before the kink 2/3rds out. Looks very close to a hinge there but kink could be tricking me. Also stay away from fade on left limb.
Right limb looks slightly stiff out of fade but be careful there. You don't want to take to much set there and just a little movement makes a big difference. Also seems a bit stiff from first kink to just before second kink.
I think both of your tips could be thinned down a bit.
Not sure how much more draw your looking for but whatever it is just work on perfecting your tiller.
Bjrogg
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Thanks bjrogg, I'm having trouble with those kink areas for sure, especially the left. I tried to get those kinks out with heat earlier in the process but they just wouldn't cooperate. The left doesn't appear to hinge while I'm working the limbs until I get close to full draw and even then I can't decide if it's just an optical illusion or not.
And yes, honestly I've learned so much being my first attempt at this that even if she does give out on me, I'd be more than happy to have the "need" to try again. Maybe with a straighter piece, cleaner piece though, if I can find one.
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And at this point, the final draw weight is what it is I guess. I had about 40lbs hanging from it @26 in that pic.
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Hi all,
These are likely the final posts i'll do on this thread. I want to thank everyone for the advice, guidance and encouragement through this process. It's been a blast and this definitely won't be my last selfbow attempt. But first I have a great straight grained white oak board that's begging to be used in several different projects.
I've attached final pics of the tips and handle section. I tried to heat treat the bow to raise the draw weight once I was happy with the tiller. I think the only thing I really accomplished was to take the recurve out that I had previously added. So, I tried to add that back in but then this happened to the belly!
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The crack is on the belly side right under the recurved part of the limb. I tried to fill it with CA glue but since the limb bends backwards there, you can see the glue was pushed out. Since it's a nasty looking crack and it's an obvious weak point, i'll just add it to the list of reasons why this bow should have broken already. That being said, I took it out and shot it today over the chrono. It was averaging between 139-143 fps with an 13.4 gpp arrow. I'm not sure how good that is but I feel like that's fairly respectable given that this is my first attempt and the number of cracks and flaws this thing has. It's pulling right at 40 lbs at 28" still so I'm assuming it's making it to 42 lbs at my full draw of 30". I know the tiller isn't perfect but I think future efforts would be best afforded to a new project.
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Way to go! I really hope it lasts, and if not, you can blame it on the wood. The bend looks really nice to me. Looking forward to seeing more from ya. :OK
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Definitely keep working on 'em. Keep posting, keep scraping wood!