Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => HowTo's and Build-a-longs => Topic started by: radius on March 28, 2008, 03:27:30 pm
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hey all, this will be my first contribution to the site...I bought a chunk of osage from Pine Hollow Longbows last week, 62 x 2.25 x 4.75. I cut it into 6 pieces, 62 x 1.5 x 1.125. One of those pieces I then ripped in half, leaving 2 pieces half and inch thick. Those two I'm going to laminate with a cherrywood backing strip 1/8th thick, in a perry reflex. But the two bows i want to make side by side for this buildalong are from two of the other pieces. The only differences will be at the handle/fades and the tips. On one, the tip is narrowed along 12 inches. On the other the tip is narrowed along 8 inches. The second one has a 4 inch handle with 1 inch fades. The first has a 4 inch handle with 2 inch fades. I want to tiller them both to 65# weight at 27 or 28.
Whew! They say a picture is worth a thousand words: how do i post pictures on here?
Scott
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ok, i see a bunch of people have viewed this:::::: so, what's up with the picture posting?
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you can just do what i always do(if you have kids)
just get a teenager to do it,thats the easist and fastest way i know how to do it.
actaully ifn you got to like imageshack you can uplaod photos from there and other photo hostinh siites,then click on the insert image tab here and insert your link from the photohosting site.
i think thats what my kid showed me how to do it.
good luck
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Click on Additional Options at the bottom of your post, then click browse to find your picture, then double click the picture to attach it. The pic needs to be 640x480 or smaller I believe, I think you can add up to six to one post..
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I put all my pics in photobucket and them just paste the img code in my post. then no resizing is necessary you can use any size. Jesse
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thanks for the advice.
here's a few pics of a yew holmegaard i made recently (thanks to adb for his efforts)
http://i294.photobucket.com/albums/mm102/radius-01/Picture035.jpg
http://i294.photobucket.com/albums/mm102/radius-01/Picture030.jpg
http://i294.photobucket.com/albums/mm102/radius-01/Picture038.jpg
ok let's see if this works!
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use the last option Img code then we dont have to click on it ;)
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(http://i294.photobucket.com/albums/mm102/radius-01/Picture038.jpg)
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Nice Bow....Tiller looks Good....and you have to Love da yew!!! But I hope them weights aren't for you to strength train with ........::) ::)
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roflmao!!!!
i hope so too! I'm trying to work my way up to those...
the 2 osage staves just arrived the other day, so i took some meat off and am going to let them sit a few days to acclimatize before working on them.
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Sounds like a Plan.......... these are Boards ....right....not Staves??
Board ....a Flat Piece of Hewn Wood...Kiln Dried...cut to Dimensions
Stave.....A Log Split into useable sized wedges used by Bowyers to make fancy.... expensive.... time consuming Firewood
>:D >:D >:D >:D >:D >:D >:D
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yeah, these are boards.
I have no second thoughts or misgivings, either. Boards are good.
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Nope...Boards are fine.....I like Osage no matter how it comes......are you going to Boo Back them or maybe Hickory??? I once took a Hedge Board...and followed one ring and make a good Bow....but the Wood has to be a near perfect cut before this will work...
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Wood is wood whether its a board or stave :)
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Ok, here are some pictures of the wood i have to work with...as i said, 62x1.5x1.125...
one picture is of a piece only 9/16ths thick...it is for a perry reflex....
two on their side, one on its back...
(http://i294.photobucket.com/albums/mm102/radius-01/Picture001-1.jpg)
a little fuzzy, but this shows the ring pattern
(http://i294.photobucket.com/albums/mm102/radius-01/Picture002-1.jpg)
notice the great pattern on the rings!
(http://i294.photobucket.com/albums/mm102/radius-01/Picture003-1.jpg)
here is a view of the grain pattern along the length...
(http://i294.photobucket.com/albums/mm102/radius-01/Picture004-1.jpg)
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boy ....you could damned near chase a ring on that one Board!!!
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you're right, i could...but instead, i'm going to back it with cherry, and epoxy the two strips into perry reflex. I have built 2 perry style bows in the past, out of white ash, using 1/8 backing with about 1/2 inch core. The overall draw weight was pretty low, but i have hopes for this osage wood...
sun just came out...i'm gonna strap these blanks onto the bench and see what i can do...later
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I don't think cherry is a good choice to back osage with. Its weak in tension better choice would be hickory or bamboo.
If you use cherry I think your gonna be disappointed :(
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ok, i'll take your advice.
I just happened to have some strips of cherry around.
What do you think of fiberglass cloth as a backing?
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ok, i'll take your advice.
I just happened to have some strips of cherry around.
What do you think of fiberglass cloth as a backing?
The concept horrifies me :o :o :o It will work but this isn't the site to discuss the F word. Trust me bamboo or hickory will work fine to back osage.
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lmao!
too funny...the real funny thing is: if we don't even say the F word around here...then what's with all the power tools? It's almost absurd to call ourselves "primitive" bowyers when most of us use power tools.
But, yeah, i've been shopping around for some bamboo...what i've found has either been too narrow or has been sitting out in the winter weather for god knows how long...
guess you don't have much good to say about cherry wood, eh? I saw a clip on YOutube by Rodney Wright, a Quebecois bowyer who made some sweet bows of cherry wood, but he backed them with...that's right...
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There goes that damned ....."F" WORD ..........again!!!!!!!!!!!
Cherry is good wood....but you have to know it's limitations....and backing Hedge with it is like wasting
your time .....like totally dude!!!!
::) ::) ::) ::)
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radius check this link out, unbacked selfbow of black cherry, it fretted but is still shooting just fine. I think cherry will challenge your tillering skills
osage, amd other woods will forgive mistakes, but BC won't I like it just fine. I was just pointing out that its not going to serve your purpose to back osage with it.
As for the fiberglass issue I won't debate you about what defines primitive, but fiberglass is not discussed here there are other sites available for that.
Sorry if I gave you the wrong impression about cherry just offered my 2 cents worth be that as it may.
http://www.primitivearcher.com/smf/index.php/topic,6259.0.html
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i remember reading other post about F%b*e$ G#a@s and its not something to say on this WEBSITE! ;D ;D i like it being a primitive sight though, keep it clean lol :) :)
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ok ok ok ok!!! :-)
;D
I am outside right now scraping wood....i'll get some photos...like i said, this is to be a comparative build along...shooting for the same draw weight with slightly different shapes, Here is my question:
What will final tillered shape look like?
Remember, one has longer fades and longer tips...
Another question: people seem to like backing osage, but osage is held to be the King Wood for bows, right? So, what can it do on its own without backing?
Another: People tend to say that you can get a 50# bow out of osage 1.25 inches wide...is it unreasonable to shoot for 70# on unbacked osage 1.5 inches wide?
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Ok, i have cleaned up the tapered ends and the bellies so that they are starting to bend in floor tiller...
At first, i just drew the basic shape on the edge of the staves, and then freehanded the cuts on my table saw...easy enough...stayed well outside the lines. I just wanted to keep the excess wood, rather than file it off into shreds and shavings....
So here are a few pictures of the work.
here is my bench...open top with moveable 2x4's
(http://i294.photobucket.com/albums/mm102/radius-01/Picture001-2.jpg)
here are the two bows with their tips tapered. You can see how one is more abrupt than the other. Shows both ends.
(http://i294.photobucket.com/albums/mm102/radius-01/Picture004-2.jpg)
(http://i294.photobucket.com/albums/mm102/radius-01/Picture005-1.jpg)
In both cases, the bows bent most where the end taper began...here are pictures showing where i have marked wood to be removed. These are two pictures of the same end of the same bow.
(http://i294.photobucket.com/albums/mm102/radius-01/Picture007-1.jpg)
(http://i294.photobucket.com/albums/mm102/radius-01/Picture006-1.jpg)
Running out of light...i'll put in another half hour then call it a day...
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You want a couple of those strips of Hickory back? I don't mind giving 'em to you if you really need some backing for those boards.
Cheers,
Grant
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sure, Grant, that'd be cool! Yeah, I don't know who gave you those sticks you gave to me, but they are definitely not Osage.
You coming into town anytime soon?
Scott
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OK, tillered into the darkness, and managed to get nocks filed into both bows and gave them their first pull on the stick. You can see the stick is simply attached to my bench...i need a workshop!!!! Gotta get happening with that "creative visualization"!! I'm in my shop, building bows, very happy, in my shop, building bows, very happy....
here is a shot of a thorn just south of one of the nocks
(http://i294.photobucket.com/albums/mm102/radius-01/Picture005-2.jpg)
and here, this puppy is rift sawn...
(http://i294.photobucket.com/albums/mm102/radius-01/Picture006-2.jpg)
while its partner (with the 2" fades") is "pondsawn"
(http://i294.photobucket.com/albums/mm102/radius-01/Picture007-2.jpg)
here is the rift sawn bow at 11 inches (fair effort to get it there, upwards of 70# "by eye")
(http://i294.photobucket.com/albums/mm102/radius-01/Picture009-1.jpg)
and here is the pond sawn bow, also at 11 inches, a little easier to draw into place
(http://i294.photobucket.com/albums/mm102/radius-01/Picture009-1.jpg)
Can you see that both of them seem stiff on the left side? Well, to double check, I turned the second one around, just making sure nothing funny was going on. And it was stiff on the right after I flipped it. So, tomorrow, I will chase tiller and try to get these sucker up towards 20 inches of draw....I've got other things to do, or I would run it all the way through.
One of these days I have to buy a spring scale. So far I've done all my tillering by eye and by feel. I have turned out one hickory bow 65# at 28 inches, and an ash pyramid bow 45# at 28, but from what i can see, using a spring scale takes the guesswork out. Pull it to weight, scrape it, pull it to weight, scrape it...next thing you know...you're a pro!!
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Better get em backed with something before you pull em to far, would hate to see them blow on ya.
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Hey, Scott
Nice looking osage boards!
Also, your yew Holmegaard looks great. The tiller looks very nice. What # did it end up at?
I wouldn't use cherry to back osage, either. Too weak. It does make not bad belly wood. I've made a few maple backed black cherry bows, and they turned out well.
Carry on, you're making good progress!
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The adb...the holmie ended up around 35#...pretty light...but that's okay since i'm giving it to my son who's 13.
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sure, Grant, that'd be cool! Yeah, I don't know who gave you those sticks you gave to me, but they are definitely not Osage.
You coming into town anytime soon?
Scott
I'm probably going to the Langford Windsor plywood sometime in the next few days, they got me some Ipe. Takedown longbow here I come!
Grant
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OK ... Question for you guys?
Why do i never hear of anyone using osage as a backing strip? Osage backed Osage? It has such a great reputation....do i need to back it, really?
I won't use the cherry, and I won't use the black walnut (obviously) but GrantMac has a couple strips of hickory I can pick up sometime this week...but maybe there are other backing options as well....
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I would not even think of bending that Board without backing it....Hedge wont take it..unles it is edge grained or biased cut....I would at least use Rawhide....but I would say Boo or Hickory as a Minimum
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If you are dealing with an osage self bow from a stave, a backing is not needed unless you violate the back ring or maybe if the rings are very thin. In the case of the rings being too thin, a raw hide or silk backing will be all you should need. A board bow, on the other hand has been sawn and thus the rings are violated. You can add a wood backing(I prefer hickory or boo), a cloth backing(silk, linen), a raw hide backing or sinew. You could add an osage backing but you will need to saw off an unviolated ring to use as the backing because with osage ring violations are lethal. Hickory can stand some ring violations.
Each wood had specific designs and working parameters that are appropriate. Some woods are good in compression so they will make better belly woods. Some are good in tension so they are good for backings or as standard self bows. Ideally, you want to match your belly wood and backing woods so you have a compatible combo along with the appropriate bow design. Pat
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ok, so i went to the store and bought a half decent stick of bamboo, about 3" diameter with fairly well-spaced nodes.
Splitting it was dead easy with a little prybar:
(http://i294.photobucket.com/albums/mm102/radius-01/Picture010-1.jpg)
Here are pictures of the back and belly of the split pieces, cut about 2 inches overlength:
(http://i294.photobucket.com/albums/mm102/radius-01/Picture011-1.jpg)
(http://i294.photobucket.com/albums/mm102/radius-01/Picture012-1.jpg)
And here is a shot of one end, so you can see what thickness and arc i'm working with:
(http://i294.photobucket.com/albums/mm102/radius-01/Picture013-1.jpg)
gotta belt sand these suckers flat...should i taper them somewhat toward the tips, or leave them as parallel strands? And i'll have to sand the backs, too, because they are dirty and marked up...this should be okay, right?
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Hi Radius,
I am glad you posted these bamboo photos and questions - I am looking forward to the answers. Brian Melton gave me a nice piece of bamboo that had already been planed, but I would like to know a bit more about how to get there without a planer.
A question for you - Where do you buy bamboo that diameter?
For other on the list - Can the bamboo be steamed to flatten it? It seems like if you just shave it down, that it will be very thick in the middle and very thin on the edges...
Keith
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With the boo you want to reduce the thickness until you have a flat surface on the belly side then trace the shape of your bow on the belly side of the boo and cut it out. Then reduce the thickness at the fades to 1/8" at the crown(the thickest part down the center). This will give you a razor edge down both edges and will also determine the width of your bow. You can also taper the thickness from fades to tips but only after cutting out the bows outline. Leave the back of the boo(side facing away from the bow) alone until you are ready to finish the bow. The rind that is on there can be lightly scraped to remove it and most of the scars. A light sanding with very fine sand paper or rub down with 0000 steel wool should prepare it for dying or to add a finish. I remove only the corky part of the nodes but don't sand or scrape them. The nodes are the weak link in the bamboo chain. If you try to sand the back smooth there is a chance you will get into the power fibers. Look at the cut end of the boo, the closer you get to the outside, the denser the fibers get. The ones along the outside are the power fibers and that is where the strength is. Pat
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Right you are: check out these next photos: it is very thin on the edges and thicker in the center. Keep in mind that these pieces are slightly wider than the bows they are backing, so they will be glued on and then hand planed and this will make the edges a bit thicker...not much, but a bit...
I bought the bamboo at Rona, and i'm going to epoxy it on with G2 epoxy for oily woods...i bought some acetone, but I have this great epoxy so i'll just use that.
The first picture shows the work partway finished. The second compares one finished backing strip to an untouched backing strip. The third shows the final shape of both of them.
(http://i294.photobucket.com/albums/mm102/radius-01/Picture014-1.jpg)
(http://i294.photobucket.com/albums/mm102/radius-01/Picture015-1.jpg)
(http://i294.photobucket.com/albums/mm102/radius-01/Picture016-1.jpg)
Now...any answers to my questions? Here's more:
1. Should i leave time for the bamboo to change before epoxying it to the back? Some people say that it will take on moisture on the belly side, and so expand, and that this will cause delamination if not dealt with beforehand.
2. I was left with a piece about 28" long...This will happen again after I cut more bamboo for my other 62 inch bows....can I join bamboo on the back? Can the backing strip be 2 pieces which meet in the middle?
OK, gotta go...actually have important real life stuff to take care of today, and I gotta hit the gym if I'm gonna pull some 70# bows!!!
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Radius....how are you getting your Pictures on here??? What site are you using...I like that you can add topics to your Pictures....I am using Photobucket...and I don't think I can do this...or at least I am not smart enough to do it!!!
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yank:
I use photobucket. All I do is click on the image (it says "copied") then i open this window. I type, "Here is a picture blah blah blah," then hit enter twice, press control-V, and then hit enter twice again.
Pat B: Thanks for the advice. Are you saying I shouldn't just laminate the two pieces and then cut out the shape? That was my plan. No good?
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You will want to trace the outline of the bow on the belly side of the boo first. Then cut it out to match the shape of the bow and reduce the thickness to the ultimate thickness(approx 1/8" at the crown). Ideally you want a knife edge along both sides of the boo after glue up. This will be reduced somewhat as you smooth out and round over the bows edges before finishing. If you reduce it first then cut it out the tips of the boo will be way too thick. That is not bad for the performance of the bow because the boo is physically lighter than the belly wood but it looks better when you thin it after cutting it out.
Also, by adding some Perry reflex at glue up time will give you a better shooting bow with little if any set beyond horizontal and probably an inch of reflex after unbracing. I like to add about 3" of Perry reflex. I do this by clamping the glued back and belly to a table at the handle area and raise the tips, backing and belly, on to blocks(I use a piece of 2x4) before clamping the rest of the limbs. Also if you pre-tiller the belly wood first so it has an even bend when floor tillered you will get a nice even curve in your added reflex. Otherwise most of the reflex will be in the handle area with straight limbs. Pat
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ok, that makes sense...thanks!
i'm getting the impression you've done this before...;D
so, i put the bamboo, as you last saw it, by the baseboard...i'll leave it there today...when i get back from town i'll probably be unable to stop myself from scraping away at the belly wood of these osage staves. Not sure how much time i'll have during the coming week...first week of the month is always busy for me...but when i do get back to it, ill take your advice, trace out the shape of the bows, cut them, and then thin them again. You know, they are pretty thin already!!!! but you say an 1/8 th at the crown is what i'm looking for...then, alright, i'll look for that!
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I have made a few but to me they are more work then they are worth. I prefer a good self bow myself or hickory backings; which is as simple as it gets. ;) Pat
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lol!!
well, i'm underway now!!!
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Good luck. looking forward to the outcome. Jesse
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Must be nice to just go to the store and but bamboo >:(
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Yep....must be nice....all I can buy here is Red Oak....or laminated Bamboo Flooring.....it sux!!
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yeah, here in town at PJWhite Hardwoods I can buy all the hickory I want...at the Rona I can buy bamboo stakes...but it must be nice to go for a little drive and cut a hedge tree...i had to order my wood from Alabama!
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I can cut Hedge all day long...but even Pappy or Keenan wouldn't want any of it....there isn't a piece of Hedge in the Panhandle that is worthy of a Bow....if it isn't windblown into so much tension....it has rings about as thick as a Sheet of Paper....but it burns good!!! I get my Hedge from Laverne in Kansas
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who is Laverne? And may I ask: how much are you paying?
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He is a Stave Seller in Kansas...and it all depends on what kind of Stave you need....I normally only pay like 35-40 dollars for one + shipping
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Pat B:
So you think it's a good idea to tiller the bow with the objective of an even curve when reflexing it? That's what I'm doing now...the back of the stave is rough sawn, and so I'm cleaning it up as part of the tillering process...I guess that's one of the advantages of working with boards.
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So you got the Rona boo? Excellent, any more pieces left that are suitable? Also how long were they total? I'll take all the 28" sections you don't want, I have plans for little pieces.
Cheers,
Grant
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grant, i tried to pick the best one, of course...;D
but there are still a few left. Problem is, they are cracked. So you gotta sort through and think, "can i split it along this crack and have it useful?" and "How many pieces can I honestly get from this stake?"
as for the shorties, they're mine. I make bows for kids out of the scraps. Maybe that's what you were thinking, too.
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ok...so i had to work the backs of these guys, they were roughsawn with about a 16th worth of rough....so i hit 'em with a coarse file and then the scraper....
this gives an idea of the transitions
(http://i294.photobucket.com/albums/mm102/radius-01/Picture018-1.jpg)
here is one handle half-rasped out
(http://i294.photobucket.com/albums/mm102/radius-01/Picture019-1.jpg)
this photo shows the back almost completely scraped clean...and shows where i may have some troubles and need some advice...
(http://i294.photobucket.com/albums/mm102/radius-01/Picture020-1.jpg)
another view of that trouble area....
(http://i294.photobucket.com/albums/mm102/radius-01/Picture021-1.jpg)
what do you guys think I should do? this is a fair-sized wane, where i actually had to scrape away some bark...how should i back this? Can i just laminate the bamboo on there and then fill the hole with epoxy and osage dust? Or should I use silk or some other fiber product which will conform to the shape of the contour? What do you think?
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eew...thats not good at all.... that grain with all of the Swirls and run-off....is a Killer ....the bark is the least if that Staves worries....Yeah you need to back that one....I would at least use Linen...but I would rather see Rawhide or Sinew on that for sure....TMO.....someone else will have another here soon.........
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what is TMO?
I could order some sinew, I guess...
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Hey!
You guys think I could heat-bend the bamboo to conform to the shape of the wane in this board?
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ok, i took the time to tiller some wood off the bow with the trouble spot... here are some images...notice that when I freehanded on the table saw (cutting outside the line) I cut nearer on one limb than on the other...most of the work of tillering has been off this thicker limb.
These pictures are all taken at about 13 inches of draw....
(http://i294.photobucket.com/albums/mm102/radius-01/Picture025-1.jpg)
(http://i294.photobucket.com/albums/mm102/radius-01/Picture024-1.jpg)
(http://i294.photobucket.com/albums/mm102/radius-01/Picture023-1.jpg)
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the bow is still very heavy, just like i intended it to be...and I can feel it tensing in the handle as I draw....
anybody know what I can do about the wane on the edge of this sucker? Do you think steaming bamboo will cause it to conform to the shape of what's there, and still be strong enough later to be durable and "stand the test of time"?
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There's no way you can safely back with bamboo with that missing wedge of wood - the back has to be flat. And even if you could back it, that wedge is creating a weak spot that will likely cause the bow to fail.
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I agree with Gordon... that piece of wood needs to be backed, and you have to make it flat first. Do you have a belt sander?
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You could cut out the void area and patch it with another piece of osage, just cut it out from the edge with a bandsaw and glue in a new piece and work it down. Then glue your bamboo over top of the patched area.
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You could also go Modern World...and get e Router...and cut out just the divot area....as deep as necessary to flatten it out....cut a replacement piece and glue it up....then Back it.....or just toss the dang thing and start over....the easiest choice...... :P
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hey, thanks for the advice guys!
toss it? uh, no! My very best bow to date has a similar thing to that, but it's not just wane, it's actually grain run off where the board had been damaged...but it's hickory, which use could launch a space shuttle from and not see any damage...
I hadn't even thought of belt sanding the back off until it was flat...that's not a bad idea...that would almost complete the work of tillering, too...i think i may go for that, and then back it with the bamboo i've prepped in a reflex to gain some oomph.
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Come to think of it...my router is missing me a little...and I have some extra osage tapered pieces from where I table-sawed the extra wood off the belly...that's the way to go, I think...
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OK...
Since this is a 2 at once, compare and contrast buildalong, i left the waney one leaning in the corner today, and after work I rasped and scraped the pondsawn one for awhile. The thinner limb has a minor hinge in it, so i can't draw it very far. I want to even up the limbs (minus the hinge!) and then, when the stiffer limb is bending with the thinner one, clear up the hinge and chase my draw weight down to full draw.
Contrast scraped and rasped wood.
(http://i294.photobucket.com/albums/mm102/radius-01/Picture026-1.jpg)
Same spot, from other side.
(http://i294.photobucket.com/albums/mm102/radius-01/Picture027-1.jpg)
Here it is at about 13 inches draw...just before the hinge starts to show....
(http://i294.photobucket.com/albums/mm102/radius-01/Picture028-1.jpg)
I'd like to work on it some more today, but I've got to meet the boys for a few...next time..
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ok...finally got one on the short string...
tillering with a scraper and rasp were taking too long and eating up too much energy...so I switched to rasp and orbital sander...awesome combo...fast wood removal where needed, plus smoothing in very little time....
You see I have a clamp on my tiller stick...I originally had it at about 13", and drew heavy on the long string to get the string into the groove. That was a couple sessions ago. Yesterday I had the long string at about 16" pulling the same effort. Then I tillered some more, getting the hinge out and evening up the bend, to find that with the long string and the clamp at 16", very little real effort was required to hitch the string on the groove.
Here is a picture of that....
(http://i294.photobucket.com/albums/mm102/radius-01/Picture029-1.jpg)
So I made a string about 2" shorter than the bow, and put the clamp back at 10" or so. This forced me to exert more energy to get it set up on the tillering stick. Here is where it sits now...
(http://i294.photobucket.com/albums/mm102/radius-01/Picture030-2.jpg)
So, now that I've got it to this point: where it is evenly bending at the high weight I want out of this bow...is now the time to put the bamboo backing on? I mean, it feels to me like I could get this bow to full draw and full weight without any backing at all, despite grain runoffs...but common advice goes against this, right? If I tiller it to full draw and then back it, i'll raise the weight 5 or 10 pounds, I guess, and have to touch up the tiller...
What do you say, guys, now or later?
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Now!!!!!!! Dont bend that thing any farther or you'll be sorry. If you glue your boo on in reflex your goin g to gain a whole lot more than 5 or ten pounds. You'll need to start the tillering process all over again. Dont rush it faster isnt better when it comes to tillering bows, just go slow and take a break and do something else for a while if you tired or sick of scraping it. Come back later with a fresh mind.
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OK!
It's cold out this morning, but I trimmed the bamboo to shape (slightly over) and sanded it down futher....here's what it looks like now...
(http://i294.photobucket.com/albums/mm102/radius-01/Picture031-1.jpg)
(http://i294.photobucket.com/albums/mm102/radius-01/Picture032-1.jpg)
But...because it's cold out, I didn't want to work with the epoxy...so I brought the bow to the table. The first picture is the bow with nock to nock string, a bit loose, at 12" draw.
(http://i294.photobucket.com/albums/mm102/radius-01/Picture033-1.jpg)
Now I tightened the string up a little. It's not braced, but it is tight against the handle. The clamp is still at 12" draw.
(http://i294.photobucket.com/albums/mm102/radius-01/Picture034-1.jpg)
Keep in mind that every time I set it on the stick, i check the bend with a block, and mark the flat spots for work. This next photo is at about 14" of draw, string tight against the handle. It took a lot of effort to pull the string into the groove, and yet the bow shows no set at all. The curve is symmetrical and even. Lifting the string into place takes so much energy that the table comes up: I have to hold it down with my feet!!! After taking it down, I wondered how heavy this bow really was. After all, I have no scale. So I came inside and strung my 65# hickory bow. After working with the osage bow, the 65 is easy to draw: no problem! And so far I have heard nary a crack or a creak....
Here it is at 14" draw.
(http://i294.photobucket.com/albums/mm102/radius-01/Picture035-2.jpg)
Next step: low brace: say, 3 or 4 inches or so...
Hope it doesn't break!
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Why are you going to brace the bow before gluing on the backing?
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sounds like you think that's a mistake!
I don't know...because I am an experimental bowyer...I'm like Tim Baker that way...no hard and fast rules other than have fun, keep trying, keep it interesting...
Everyone says it's gonna break without backing...and I like to take the advice of more experienced guys, no matter what i'm doing...but this one feels pretty strong to me, gives no sign of breaking (no eerie sounds, and no hinging). I think that people are afraid it's going to break, but I tend to doubt what "everyone" says. And I look at this buildalongs...don't people often make the bow and then throw a backing onto it?
If I make the bow, then add the backing without reflex...what effect will that have?
Do you make osage board bows without backing? Or with backing added at the end?
Maybe I'm just a dolt! :'( :-[ :-[
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I do not think you are a dolt...heck i don't think ANY of us think that. He was just curious about your procedure. Typically the procedure goes something like rough out the bow...floor tiller then back before tillering the beast. It is especially true when adding a hard backing such as bamboo or hickory.
What I really think it boils down to with Gordon's question is asking about your thought processes so we can understand what you are doing and why....then will come suggestions......does that make sense???
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thanks!
I've never worked with bamboo or osage before...maybe I should just wait til it's a bit warmer outside and epoxy the damn backing on before going any further!
You are very diplomatic, btw.
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I asked the question because I cannot think of any good reason to subject the board to the rigors of the short string before gluing on the backing. I only see downside - unnecessary work (you will have to tiller again after the backing is applied), potential set and even breakage if the board is ill-suited to be a selfbow or is not prepared properly. You really only need to get the board bending enough so that any reflex (or deflex) that you glue in is evenly distributed along the length of the limbs and it looks like you already have that.
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ok, thanks Gordon...i admit it: i was impatient to get the bow into shape....there, i said it!
All that other stuff about experimenting and keeping it new is also true, but hey! No point in re-inventing the wheel.
Tomorrow I will glue the bamboo onto the back. Today I salvaged an old inner tube which i can cut into two long strips...i'll put a little reflex into it, and we'll see how it goes from there.
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OK...
This morning I spread tarp on my floor to do my glue-up inside...Gotta love the smell of that epoxy! First of all, I did a dry run. Went into a bike shop yesterday and asked if they had any used old tubes headed for the garbage, so they gave me a large one which I cut into two strips about 6 feet long...
Here is the dry run...
(http://i294.photobucket.com/albums/mm102/radius-01/Picture036-1.jpg)
(http://i294.photobucket.com/albums/mm102/radius-01/Picture037-1.jpg)
This is the epoxy I have been using...this one has never given me any grief at all...it's especially designed for oily woods, so I did not bother to wash the back of the osage with acetone...I know, it's sacrilege!
(http://i294.photobucket.com/albums/mm102/radius-01/Picture038-2.jpg)
Here is the bow fully wrapped. The handle has stretch wrap on it, and so does one tip...
(http://i294.photobucket.com/albums/mm102/radius-01/Picture039.jpg)
And as an aside, here are three photos of a splice I've done for a kids bow, made from the pieces I cut off the belly of this bow...My handcut z-splice was not so stellar, and I tried a trick I've read about on some forum or another: mix osage sawdust and file shavings into the epoxy. The center cuts received this thickened/reinforced epoxy, while the outside cuts received clear epoxy. We'll see!!!
(http://i294.photobucket.com/albums/mm102/radius-01/Picture040.jpg)
(http://i294.photobucket.com/albums/mm102/radius-01/Picture041.jpg)
(http://i294.photobucket.com/albums/mm102/radius-01/Picture042.jpg)
Today is Saturday, so I will let the epoxy cure for 24 hours, and then we'll let ya know!
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You can all see my reflexing form over there...but I didn't use it this time. I have been hauling on this thing, well over 65# pressure at about 15" draw...and it is as straight as when I first started working on it...so i'll save the reflex form for the thinner pieces I sawed down earlier...
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The clamps and straps are off, and you can see the gluelines in these next few pictures...fortunately, I have to go out today, or I would probably not be able to resist working on them further. The epoxy has set, but it wouldn't hurt to give it a bit more time, right?
Man, I'm not even done yet and I already agree with Pat B: bamboo is more trouble than it's worth, when a simple strip of hickory is so much easier to produce and work with!
(http://i294.photobucket.com/albums/mm102/radius-01/Picture043.jpg)
(http://i294.photobucket.com/albums/mm102/radius-01/Picture044.jpg)
(http://i294.photobucket.com/albums/mm102/radius-01/Picture045.jpg)
You see the bamboo is slightly over at each end...just needs trimming...
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Oh, and you guys! You were so right about the effect of the backing strip on draw weight/flexibility: you saw how much this thing was bending before, but now, with the bamboo, it barely moves at all when i floor tiller it...
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Hi...
Here are a couple photos of the bamboo-backed bow, after trim-sanding...
(http://i294.photobucket.com/albums/mm102/radius-01/Picture046.jpg)
(http://i294.photobucket.com/albums/mm102/radius-01/Picture047.jpg)
Here, you can't see it very well, but either the bamboo was shallow or i missed a spot with the epoxy, but there is a...GAP! I actually had a slight gap at each end, so I trimmed about a 16th off each side of each end, and that eliminated the problem.
(http://i294.photobucket.com/albums/mm102/radius-01/Picture050.jpg)
These next couple pictures are of the stave with the huge divet on one side. The first shows the back marked for demolition.
(http://i294.photobucket.com/albums/mm102/radius-01/Picture051.jpg)
Now here is the finished product, belt sanded and ready for bamboo. Be careful when belt sanding these babies: my handscrew clamp gave way and the stave shot back at full force into the fence! Make that, the Landlord's fence....
(http://i294.photobucket.com/albums/mm102/radius-01/Picture053.jpg)
Right now I'm going to epoxy this bow to its backing. This time I made the backing thinner, and maybe I can get some reflex into it...i'll try it out in a dry run and see how it goes....
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Man that one Stave has some bad-assed grain Run Off...even Backing it seems to be a Gamble....if it holds...it will sure be different looking with all of them swirls on the Belly....
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all bowmaking is a gamble, my brother! After all, what do we do but push the envelope, push it a little more, a little more, a little more...we're like little kids bugging our parents for money, or slackers trying to get out early and hope the boss doesn't notice!
This is what yesterday's backed bow looks like immediately after trim-sanding the edges:
(http://i294.photobucket.com/albums/mm102/radius-01/Picture056.jpg)
Yesterday, before adding the bamboo, but after thinning the thing down with the belt sander, I could draw it about 16" no problem, maybe 40 pounds or so. Here it is today at 8" immediately after trimming.
(http://i294.photobucket.com/albums/mm102/radius-01/Picture057.jpg)
Spots like this where the grain swirls, you have to change direction with the rasp. You can do it smoothly with no gouges or tear-outs, provided you change direction with the rasp. This spot also proves to be a flat area in the upcoming pictures. It is toward the end of the right hand side of the bow.
(http://i294.photobucket.com/albums/mm102/radius-01/Picture060.jpg)
At 14" draw:
(http://i294.photobucket.com/albums/mm102/radius-01/Picture065.jpg)
At 15" draw: Like I said, the flattish area toward the end of the right limb is where the grain swirls and changes direction.
(http://i294.photobucket.com/albums/mm102/radius-01/Picture066.jpg)
These next two pictures show the tight string running end to end. No brace height at all, just a tight string. The tips of the string are on center, but I can't say the same for the length of the bow.
(http://i294.photobucket.com/albums/mm102/radius-01/Picture067.jpg)
(http://i294.photobucket.com/albums/mm102/radius-01/Picture068.jpg)
That's all for today. How do you guys think I should handle the string issue? No big deal, just run with it? Or should I trim the bow width-wise so that the string is centered? It's a strong draw now, about 70 or 80 pounds at 15 inches, on the long string. The long string, by the way, is only a few inches longer than the bow itself.
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Few days later.
I decided to make one bow a pyramid shape, and the lucky winner was...the thicker bow, with shorter fades. This is not the one with the wane problem I had to belt sand away.
Here is the amount I had to take away, and my edge sander...
(http://i294.photobucket.com/albums/mm102/radius-01/Picture097.jpg)
(http://i294.photobucket.com/albums/mm102/radius-01/Picture098.jpg)
After trimming these lines away on both limbs, I put the long string. It hung to 7 inches. I pulled it to 12. Even tiller. Well, pretty even, anyway.
(http://i294.photobucket.com/albums/mm102/radius-01/Picture100.jpg)
(http://i294.photobucket.com/albums/mm102/radius-01/Picture102.jpg)
Took it to the scale: 50 # at 12 inches with the long string.
Since then I've taken it to 15 inches with the long string, using the block method to keep the curve even. When I get it so that I can pull it 10 inches from where the long string hangs, I will----gasp---affix a short string, at long last.
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Now it's been several days since posting to this buildalong, because i've been busy with my firehawks. But today i found some time to work on the tiller of this pyramid BBO, and i've got it braced at 4.5 inches. From there, I can draw it to 23"...70# at 23... the tiller isn't dead-on, i need to remove some wood from the first 8 or 10 inches out of the fades...but i'll get 70# at 28" no problem, and that's what I was shooting for to begin with.
(http://i294.photobucket.com/albums/mm102/radius-01/Picture113.jpg)
Look at this photo. I wanted to use a reduced handle area. I'm one of those guys, who when I see that everybody does something the same way all the time, I like to question it. I try new things. But now that i'm there and got it braced, i don't like it and i see why people make 4 inch handles with 2 inch fades each way. It's not too late. I'm going to start working on the handle next session, before tillering, so that I can get the thing comfortable and see where the arrow's going to pass. I've chosen my lower limb already. I tend to do that fairly early on...not before tillering, but when tillering in the early stages...
Does anybody else use short handles like this? What have you found? Thanks.
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HI,
Well, I finally got one of them tillered to 28"...75# before final sand and tune-up. This is the pyramid style bow. I'll get some fulldraw photos in soon.
Here's a picture of the bow at about 4.5" brace height. You can see the short, lumpy handle. El Destructo: you can see my bathroom scale, piece of plywood, and tillering stick on the bathroom floor! This picture's for you, amigo!
(http://i294.photobucket.com/albums/mm102/radius-01/Picture115.jpg)
The bow took about 1.25" set. That's not too bad. They weren't reflexed at all: just epoxied the bamboo flat onto the osage. I have scraped the skin off the bamboo, and sanded it to 150...smooth as a baby's bum except the nodes...i plan to simply coat the bow with tung oil...
the bamboo has some spalting...see that dark line? What do you guys think of that? Is it a weakness or just a discoloration?
(http://i294.photobucket.com/albums/mm102/radius-01/Picture116.jpg)
Tomorrow after work [see, Keenan: not TOO badly addicted to bowmaking: I still go in to work ... 'course I'm thinking about bowmaking all day long] I will shape the handle, cut in a shelf...start the final sanding process...
And then on to the next one!
This post is about 2 BBO's side by side. The second one is shaped like a Meare Heath bow: I'll tidy up its lines, tiller it to 75# also, and compare the way the 2 bows shoot.
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o btw...
I started a big renovation the other day: taking out a thousand window from a derelict department store that's being converted to condominiums. All the window stools are maple. Oh yeah, maple baby, and just over 6 feet long. And yeah, they are coming out. I see a lot of free maple backing strips in my near future! Now I know what i can use to back my yew laminate bows... Alright!
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(http://i294.photobucket.com/albums/mm102/radius-01/Picture119.jpg)
(http://i294.photobucket.com/albums/mm102/radius-01/Picture118.jpg)
Looks like people are prepping their bamboo backed bows this way for tips. I'll be putting rosewood on here, probably tomorrow.
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I finished the 2nd bow today. I had to reduce the width considerably! Running a string from center to center of the tip showed a big error, so I made it as wide as i could: 1 inch. It is 1" wide the center 3 feet or so (but the handle is about 5/8")...tapering the last foot to 1/2". As a result of my mistake, the bamboo is alot thicker on one side than the other. But the bow draws in a smooth tiller, 70# at 28" with about 1.5" string follow.
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Hi,
I was a little overeager to say "finished" on this one. I got the tip overlays on and shaped. Also, cut into the handle a 1/4" then added a small piece of rosewood to build out the arrow rest. Once I had everything smoothed over and the handle sitting nicely in my hand, I strung it and realized it needed a little more work.
(http://i294.photobucket.com/albums/mm102/radius-01/Picture119.jpg)
(http://i294.photobucket.com/albums/mm102/radius-01/Picture125.jpg)
(http://i294.photobucket.com/albums/mm102/radius-01/Picture126.jpg)
(http://i294.photobucket.com/albums/mm102/radius-01/Picture127.jpg)
(http://i294.photobucket.com/albums/mm102/radius-01/Picture128.jpg)
So, it's still a work in progress. One of bamboo nodes is sitting right over the fades in the lower limb, making that area very reluctant to bend. The upper limb has all the bend it needs. An hour or so more work should get 'er done.
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Okay, got the tiller in...did a little more work on sanding the handle, the arrow rest, and the limbs in general. Notice that the upper limb has a positive tiller. I found on my earliest bows that the lower limb would bend too much, so I make them a little stiffer than the upper limb now. It looks symmetrical (fairly!) when drawn, but i'll have to prove that with a pic later on.
(http://i294.photobucket.com/albums/mm102/radius-01/Picture135.jpg)
(http://i294.photobucket.com/albums/mm102/radius-01/Picture136.jpg)
Notice that the handle is just a bulb. it is big enough for the palm of the hand, and no more. The bend starts very soon out of the fades and maximizes the available material. My initial goal of making 70# bows has been reached. In the next few days, I'll final sand and oil this bow...not stain it, as I did the other one...and my project will be done...god, what do i need with 2 more bows?!?!?!?
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Alright, it has been final sanded to 400 and oiled.
here's the inspector examining the tip
(http://i294.photobucket.com/albums/mm102/radius-01/Picture137.jpg)
bulbous handle from both sides
(http://i294.photobucket.com/albums/mm102/radius-01/Picture138.jpg)
(http://i294.photobucket.com/albums/mm102/radius-01/Picture139.jpg)
(http://i294.photobucket.com/albums/mm102/radius-01/Picture140.jpg)
(http://i294.photobucket.com/albums/mm102/radius-01/Picture150.jpg)
tip overlay
(http://i294.photobucket.com/albums/mm102/radius-01/Picture143.jpg)
spalt looks the same even after oiling
(http://i294.photobucket.com/albums/mm102/radius-01/Picture146.jpg)
(http://i294.photobucket.com/albums/mm102/radius-01/Picture151.jpg)
This is the pyramid shaped bow with the bulbous handle. For those of you following along, it is not the one which had the wane on one edge. That one got cut to 1" wide along most of its length. This puppy weighs in at 68# at 28" after final treatment and sanding. Within 2 pounds of my initial target weight. I'm pretty happy with it, let me say. Thanks for looking.
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Here are a few shots of the other one.
This one rec'd a stain before oiling...gel stain called "provincial"...whatever...
I need to file the nocks a little deeper, so i don't have a brace height picture just now...
(http://i294.photobucket.com/albums/mm102/radius-01/Picture153.jpg)
Here's the fade, next to my thumb...
(http://i294.photobucket.com/albums/mm102/radius-01/Picture153.jpg)
Here's the tip, next to my pinky...
(http://i294.photobucket.com/albums/mm102/radius-01/Picture157.jpg)
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whoops! HERE's the fade, next to my thumb
(http://i294.photobucket.com/albums/mm102/radius-01/Picture156.jpg)
and another shot of the belly (this is where that nasty bit of wane was, i think)
(http://i294.photobucket.com/albums/mm102/radius-01/Picture155.jpg)
notice that the bamboo is clear: no spalting in this section
I'm pretty disappointed in the handle so far...should've left it the width of the fades...as it is, it will need to be built up before it's comfortable enough to shoot.
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Here are some full draw shots
First two are of the bow with the rosewood tips and handle piece...
(http://i294.photobucket.com/albums/mm102/radius-01/Osage%20Bows/Picture161.jpg)
(http://i294.photobucket.com/albums/mm102/radius-01/Osage%20Bows/Picture162.jpg)
This one is the thinner bow with no overlays...
(http://i294.photobucket.com/albums/mm102/radius-01/Osage%20Bows/Picture163.jpg)
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Dude I just gotta say you need to learn to take better photos.
I saw a lot of pictures of your feet when I was wishing I was looking at the grain of the wood.
git your camera focused somehow....
I don't mean it in a harsh way...
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those are some awesome bows there. would you care to add pictures of both bows with an unstrung sideprofile?
that rosewood looks darn nice!
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what's wrong with looking at my feet?
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Hey, Scott
Those are very nice looking bows! Well done.
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thanks adb...the bamboo proved pretty challenging, but those bows are very strong