Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: FilipT on May 18, 2018, 12:33:06 pm
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Another crack thread. (lol)
I started today ash longbow and removed a lot of wood using perpendicular cuts to layout and then chopping chunks of wood of. Probably the best technique for fast wood removal but lo and behold, hidden knot took the split inside the layout (back).
I filled the crack with CA glue and clamped it. Was this a good thing or I could expect further problems? Should I maybe instead try to get rid of crack by going around that place? You can see that I have enough wood on the other side.
(https://s31.postimg.cc/hirvvo5rf/IMG_20180518_182335.jpg)
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If its in the handle or fade or tips you may be ok. Otherwise, back it, or sinew wrap it, but sinew wrap is hard to do and tiller a bow so....
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That is a bend through handle longbow and this crack is about 20 cm away from the tip. What about my second idea, where I make that part of limb in a "snake", so that snake avoids crack?
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that is going to sneak up and bite you later.
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Looking real close, the crack seems to be following the grain....My vote would be to follow the grain and take it out...
Don
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How wide are your tips? You have lots of meat there for being so close to your tips. Id say keep shaving it down.
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You should be able to follow the grain more closely there and work it into a "snake" as you said, ASSUMING you have enough width both THERE and anywhere else the grain takes that big a wag laterally.
What I mean is, if you try to follow the grain THERE, you should probably follow it throughout the whole bending limb.
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Yes it is following the grain. This is the idea I have. I did this in Paint.
(https://s7.postimg.cc/6n05pwsfv/IMG_20180518_182335.jpg)
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That looks fine to me. Just make sure it doesn't also run off the edge anywhere else.
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I will watch every millimeter of this while removing wood haha. Don't want to experience this again!
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Filip,
You will have grain run out again if you don't follow the grain...Green x's show grain run out area...IMO, I would start with a single center line following the grain and then lay out the taper from center...Hope this helps...Check out the purple lines, maybe you have room?
Don
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Ash, knots and bending is not a good combination, if you know what I mean......
DBar
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That ragged looking area in the upper right is just as concerning.
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I removed the wood already and it followed the grain so that limb will look like something in between purple and red lines. That being said, I do agree with PatM regarding that ugly knot. I know that one cannot bisect the knot, but we can remove most of it.
P.S.
What are you all looking at is not the clean back of the bow. This ash has really firm bark that cannot detach from the wood so I removed just the rough parts and this here is a underbark couple of mm thick. I hope that I could find an easy way to remove it. This ash has huge amount of rings and just a small slip on my part will violate the rings.
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I've never worked Ash but with all the wood I have worked I spritz the underbark with water and let it soak in for a few minutes, then scrape with a dull scraping implement. Plastic works well. The underbark comes off easily.
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I removed the wood almost to the layout lines, drew the thickness taper lines and removed wood on the belly. I clamped the bow to aluminum bar and will leave it like that to dry fully on the attic after which I will remove the clamps and clean everything up.
@DC, to clarify this is not really underbark, but lowest layers of bark. Does your technique function on this 2 mm thick bark?
Just as PatM and me feared, this is the state of the knot. Should I drill it through?
From the back
(https://s7.postimg.cc/j5dl2x6xn/IMG_20180519_173317.jpg)
From the belly
(https://s7.postimg.cc/3jw9iz2p7/IMG_20180519_173327.jpg)
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@DC, to clarify this is not really underbark, but lowest layers of bark. Does your technique function on this 2 mm thick bark?
Like I said, I've never worked Ash, give it a try, can't hurt anything.
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That stave makes me uneasy and I've worked lots of character staves. Lots.
For one thing, there does not appear to be enough wood around that knot.
Lots.
Jawge
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Solution: Hollow out the knot completely, its almost out anyway. Then wrap sinew through the now opened hole, around the damage like a splint. Ignore it while tillering, keep it stiff dont let it bend.
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What if I drill the hole and heat treat the surrounding area, but not the rest of the bow?
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Here is how bow looks like after removing excess wood. Still not sure how to remove bark. Physical mass is 819 grams and I am not sure if it is fully dry yet. I will monitor it with scale. Anyway I have plenty of wood for tillering.
The nasty knot viewed from belly. Should I fill it with CA?
(https://s15.postimg.cc/miybdvxpn/IMG_20180606_132650.jpg)
Beautiful rings on the belly
(https://s15.postimg.cc/uogdbzw8b/IMG_20180606_132544.jpg)
Notice thick underbark
(https://s15.postimg.cc/l3wqp59h7/IMG_20180606_132557.jpg)
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I'd use a draw-knife to remove as much of the "underbark" as possible. Then I'd wet the back with a damp cloth and just scrape it off using a really dull knife or something similar.
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I was messing with a piece of Maple yesterday trying to get the bark off. I was getting nowhere. The wood was three years old and very dry. I finally stuck it in a tube and steamed it for an hour. The bark came off quite easily. I had to work fast though cause when it cooled for a few minutes the bark was just as tight as it was before.
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What would happen if I pour boiling/very hot water on it? Btw, I have never seen wood that has such "glued on" bark to it. You basically cannot debark it with draw knife because of immense ring count. Any draw could violate the back easily, which happened to another stave of this ash (there were 3 staves, this one is first successful).
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Cut your wood during the growing season and the bark will pop off. Cut it during the dormant season and it sticks like glue.
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You can try boiling water. I would soak it first to try to get the bark damp. It might not all come off in one go. Surprisingly soaking a dry piece of wood doesn't do any harm, it dries out very quickly. You can stand it in a hot shower for as long as you can get away with, usually someone yells at you for wasting water. You'll still have to scrape it off, don't expect it to come off in one big sheet.
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Pat B, of course it does. What this ash differs from any other wood I cut/worked on during autumn/winter is that bark is ridiculously tight.
DC, I would try pouring water on it and scraping it immediately after. Not sure how it goes but I bet it would be better than using draw knife and violating the rings.
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If you can find a power washer especially one that heats the water it works great for removing bark and cambium with no damage to back of your stave.
Bjrogg
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I have 140 bar Karcher power washer but it doesn't heat water. What do you think about using it?
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PatB you said: Cut your wood during the growing season and the bark will pop off. Cut it during the dormant season and it sticks like glue.
But: Under the aspect, that the outer growth-ring in summertime isn't fully developped, i'd never cut wood in the growing season; at least that's what everybody says if it comes to cutting bowwwod in summer.
Would it maybe wise, to cut the wood in the last days of the growing season (e.g. october) to take profit of an (almost) fully developped outer growth-ring & easy debarking? Is this maybe the best time of the year for cutting wood? Still, at this point of time there would still be a lots of moisture in the wood...
Sorry FiliP for slightly hijacking your thread...
EDIT: Thanks PatB for your advice!
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I like cutting whitewood during the spring before the newest ring is laid down. For me I think using last years ring that has had all winter to mature is a better option. Other folks have different ideas.
I know the moisture content is is higher in the spring but if you seal the ends and back well you shouldn't have any checking problems. It has always worked well for me.
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I have 140 bar Karcher power washer but it doesn't heat water. What do you think about using it?
Filip I'd give the washer a try. I did a bunch of winter harvested HHB and some Elm. I used the burner to heat my water but I also tried it with cold water. It worked with cold but took longer. I did a post if you search "removing bark and cambium with power washer " maybe you can find it. I know some others have told me they tried just cold water and it worked for them. You can't chase a ring on osage but it works for removing cambium on any of the white woods I've tried. Might take Bark off with draw knife first if you prefer.
Bjrogg
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Tried it this afternoon and it just removed thin upper layer but it made it wet. I think I would rather experiment with hot water which will probably soften it and than remove it with scraping (not drawing).
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It still looks to me that you should be able to expedite the process by getting 1/2 of it it removed using a drawknife. I mean, if it's a few mm thick damaging the back is rather unlikely. Or does the under-bark just sort of merge/transform into solid wood?
I'm really curios about this ash you have, seems really unusual with its cambium being so tricky. I've had dry ash with thick underbark (a few mm) but never something as problematic. Wish you luck.
Edit: is it dangerous to leave it on during tillering or would it just pop off?
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I will probably remove first a thin bit of layer with knife and than use hot water. No, the underbark doesn't really transform into solid wood but it almost behaves like a solid wood. What is interesting that ash sapling I worked on before (some time last autumn) had normal bark. I just debarked it with fingers and a bit of draw knife, nothing special. Very weird.
I think it would probably be tight during tillering. When you floor tiller bow with a bit of underbark/bark, it cracks and finally it all pops off during tillering. But this one doesn't do anything during tiller. It really behaves like early growth rings of some sort.
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I finally debarked it. Used draw knife to get bark to about 0,5 mm thickness and then I poured boiling water on feet long segments. So I scraped carefully each segment until the bark was gone. Of course, since this is tight grained ash, even with light scraping I violated several rings on the back so I had to remove them.
Result is uniformly clean back of the bow. That being said, when the bow enters final stage where it will be cleaned and sanded, I will be very careful when sanding the back.
Here are two pictures of the side of bow at the center clearly showing tight grain. On one picture you can see ruler in metric system which could give you some reference about width of rings. Back is the edge near the number "0". Notice the almost non existent width of rings there.
(https://s15.postimg.cc/y2iz4zeiz/image.jpg)
(https://s15.postimg.cc/secoe2uqz/image.jpg)
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Good job! You learned two things
1- how to get dried bark off
2- cut your wood in the spring :)
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Ash and thin growth rings have not been a good combination for me in the past. Good luck on your build.
Kyle
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DC, I cut almost whole year long. But I prefer autumn because how juices run slowly and wood is not so heavy. Also there is less chance for cracking.
Kyle, could you tell a little more what usually happened?
Forgot to mention, I don't know when, maybe tomorrow, I need to correct string alignment with steaming so I cannot tiller yet. Will keep everyone updated.
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I have had 3 fail, from lifted splinters on the back to violent explosions at full draw. All the staves were from the same tree. Good growth rings in the center of the tree, very tight rings on the outside. The tree must have been starved the last 5 to 6 years. Very thin growth rings. These were all overbuilt, meare heath style flatbows, 2+ inches wide, 68 - 70 inches long, pulling 45-50 pounds. I don't think the thin rings can take the tension.
Kyle
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We'll see what it will happen. This ash and its companion saplings were growing on a small hilly and rocky terrain. Because of this (probably) they had so many rings in such a small diameter of 4 inches.
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Compared to this the yew I have has absolutely huge growth rings. What's that, 4 rings per mm? It seems that even the lightest sanding of the back might violate a ring.
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Imagine yew with these rings, it would produce a 200# bow just like that LOL. And you are right, even sanding could violate the back so I said I must be really careful.
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After 2 steaming sessions, string is passing almost through center.
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Probably the shortest tillering ever.
Decided to start tiller it today. Before tillering I noticed spots which will probably become hinges and I mark them as places to avoid. I put the string immediately on full brace height and am surprised how good the bend looks like. Put it on the tiller, draw to 15", remove it and scrape the inner 2/3 of the upper limb. Put it there again and draw to 20", remove it, this time I scrape the lower limb fully, to make it less stiff. Here and there and 10 minutes later, bow measures 48 pounds at 28 inches.
After scraping tool marks and making radius on the edges, bow measured 45 pounds, which is just a tad bit under 50 pounds I wanted, but I am very pleased with result.
I will put some other day additional pictures of full draw, before that I must apply pork fat and beeswax coating.
Dimensions:
- 70" nock to nock
- 40 x 20 mm at center
- gradual taper to the tips
Lower limb, back
(https://s8.postimg.cc/f1vgchit1/1_1.jpg)
Lower limb, belly
(https://s8.postimg.cc/xu7bg8f91/1_2.jpg)
Arrow pass, thinking about putting leather handle
(https://s8.postimg.cc/54kfjko3p/1_3.jpg)
Belly
(https://s8.postimg.cc/794skosb9/1_4.jpg)
Tip, sorry for lack of focus, phone camera literally cannot focus
(https://s8.postimg.cc/jnrkl0c3p/1_5.jpg)
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Nice! Did it take any set?
Yesterday I tillered an ash longbow (34 mm by 27 mm in the handle with a rather rounded cross section) 186 cm long and it developed 2 inches of set, I believe mainly because of the initially terrible whip-tiller. I'll perfect the tiller in the coming days but it'll become firewood after that.
Anyhow, those thin growth rings make for a good looking belly.
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Yes it got a bit of a set, but keep in mind it was already a bit deflexed. These rings will pop out even more tomorrow when I put fat and beeswax and heat them up. Wood will soak it in and show the grain even more.
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I just put coating of pork fat, heated it up with heatgun and rubbed it in with a cloth. Repeated the same process with the beeswax. Combination of these two really popped out the grain and bow is also now practically waterproof. When I put leather I will post full draw.
(https://s8.postimg.cc/95guh6s45/IMG_20180621_155025.jpg)
(https://s8.postimg.cc/xlz0bp35h/IMG_20180621_155030.jpg)
(https://s8.postimg.cc/id92xwu1h/IMG_20180621_155044.jpg)
(https://s8.postimg.cc/95guh8a4l/IMG_20180621_155148.jpg)
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Definitely not the perfect bend but I am very satisfied with performance. Learned a big deal out of this bow during tillering and this is my first successful ash bow! Also I must learn to make better handle wraps.
(https://s33.postimg.cc/j6twgn933/IMG_20180624_083745.jpg)
(https://s33.postimg.cc/46ekvsjhb/IMG_20180624_153026.jpg)
(https://s33.postimg.cc/kheos43ov/IMG_20180624_153039.jpg)
(https://s33.postimg.cc/fir6dln1b/IMG_20180624_153134.jpg)
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That should fling a arrow nicely filip.
Bjrogg
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I'm going to be a bit of an 'hole and speak my mind :D
To me it looks a bit stiff for the first third and then weak midlimb, especially the right one. Were you going for an elliptic tiller? Could be that it's just deflexed parts that look that way.
It looks almost exactly like my previous attempt just better; my bow developed unacceptable amount of set because I kept seeing the outer limbs as too stiff while on long string and low brace. Then when braced it looked absolutely atrocious.
Also, a fun thing I noticed is that that apparently the last few years have been slow as far as ash growth goes, over here the outer rings are also thin, not as the ones you have but still. Then again, it's just 50 km "as the arrow flies" from here to where you're at.
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Any critic is welcome, just speak your mind.
I agree with you regarding right (upper limb). But the issue here is two fold. You noticed a spot where it appears weak mid limb but actually that spot is not hinge but a poor shaping attempt of me. What happened is that change in limb thickness is a bit abrupt in that area but not so it makes bow behave poorly. I completely forgot to correct this when I finished tillering and just proceeded to coat it with fat and beeswax so it was too late. Dumb of me, no need to mention it.
Second issue is indeed a bit stiffer inner half of limb. I tried to correct that area several times, but it just didn't had any effect. Since I am beginner I was afraid it would suddenly become too weak and since the drawing of bow is very smooth I decided to not bother with further.
And yes, I was going for a more elliptical tiller instead a part of circle. I guess it was more because it was deflexed already and that shape naturally appeared at drawing. Not sure if this is an error or these bows NEED to be circular.
All in all, this bow is the first successful one this year and in some areas it needed further work but considering difficulty of the sapling, how much it could be pushed further I wouldn't know.