Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: Nasr on May 22, 2018, 11:06:47 am
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I've always wanted to attempt a bow like Marc's and now i think i am ready. However i am not sure about whether the bow must be backed or not. I dont know if he glues in the reflex in or heat treats it in then glues it up. I would rather splice a deflex in and heat treat the recurves in only because it would be easier for me to do with what i have. But i am not sure if the reflexed portion would stay put. I am gonna be using white oak heat treated and probably a 62" ntn 60# @ 28 " and 1.75" wide it might be over built with these dimensions but i want it that way for my first attempt.
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I'm also ready with a question or two when Marc chimes in. Thanks for posting this.
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The bow Marc made me is unbacked and heat bent into reflex. He does do a billet splice to get deflex in the grip area too.
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Such a bow doesn't have to be backed. I've made many deflex recurves or deflex reflex bows using billets of Osage, Elm or HHB. When you make a bow like that using billets then the reflex has to be added with dry-heat and the limbs heat-treated. You also have to use a wood that responds well to dry-heat and heat-treating otherwise you won't be able to reflex the limbs enough and it won't hold the reflex. I've never used White Oak so couldn't tell you how well that would work. I have tried White Ash and it doesn't work that well
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Marc, when you back a bow and use two strips of backing do you glue it up all at once or do it in two sessions? I'm concerned with the overlap joint of the backing bulging up when I clamp the reflex in. More so with recurved bows because the backing is kind of trapped between the recurve and the overlapped area and wants to shorten up when you bend it.
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Such a bow doesn't have to be backed. I've made many deflex recurves or deflex reflex bows using billets of Osage, Elm or HHB. When you make a bow like that using billets then the reflex has to be added with dry-heat and the limbs heat-treated. You also have to use a wood that responds well to dry-heat and heat-treating otherwise you won't be able to reflex the limbs enough and it won't hold the reflex. I've never used White Oak so couldn't tell you how well that would work. I have tried White Ash and it doesn't work that well
Marc i've worked with white oak and it bends really well using dry heat and also benefits with heat treating. I have not attempted a reflex deflex though so i don't know how it would work in that regards but i am confident i can get the curves i want with it. I am glad to hear i dont need to add a strip to the back it makes my first attempt at this much easier.
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The bow Marc made me is unbacked and heat bent into reflex. He does do a billet splice to get deflex in the grip area too.
i would really love to see a pic of that bow. I would greatly appreciate it :)
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So Marc would hacberry be a good choice
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If your wood choice works to make a reflexed recurved bow it's going to have no trouble being a D/R?R.
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If your wood choice works to make a reflexed recurved bow it's going to have no trouble being a D/R?R.
Pat i agree i don't think it would my only concern is if it will hold its reflex as all of the bows i have done are static recurves and i want to make the whole limb reflexed.
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I started on one this morning inspired by Marks design. I used osage and heat bent the deflex into the handle. If it works out I will post it if I can figure out how to get the pics out of my camera on to my computer. It hasn't been working the last few years.
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I started on one this morning inspired by Marks design. I used osage and heat bent the deflex into the handle. If it works out I will post it if I can figure out how to get the pics out of my camera on to my computer. It hasn't been working the last few years.
looking forward to it
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Marc, when you back a bow and use two strips of backing do you glue it up all at once or do it in two sessions? I'm concerned with the overlap joint of the backing bulging up when I clamp the reflex in. More so with recurved bows because the backing is kind of trapped between the recurve and the overlapped area and wants to shorten up when you bend it.
If I'm using 2 strips to back the bow then it's one limb at a time. I'm not too concerned about the overlap, as long as it's a decent fit. I let the backing on the first strip extend past the center of the handle and heat-bend it so that it sort of follows around the the crown of the handle. I start clamping the backing at the handle and work my way out to the recurves. My backings are thickness tapered and also pre-bent to follow the contour of the recurve. It doesn't have to be perfect, you'll never get that, but the fit should be pretty good. Then when the first backing is dry I'll sand it so that the next strip will lay flat against it, like an overlap.
Marc i've worked with white oak and it bends really well using dry heat and also benefits with heat treating. I have not attempted a reflex deflex though so i don't know how it would work in that regards but i am confident i can get the curves i want with it. I am glad to hear i dont need to add a strip to the back it makes my first attempt at this much easier.
White Ash heat-bends well also but it can't take the compression, it chrysals badly
So Marc would hacberry be a good choice
That's another wood I don't have access to so couldn't tell you
Ideally you would want at least 4" of reflex , more is better. You don't want to put too much deflex in with a selfbow otherwise you'll have a hard time reflexing it enough to get the tips behind the handle. Top quality Elm is great for a bow like this. I've also come to believe that Elm benefits from a higher crown, what you would get from a small diameter tree. Heat-treating seems to give balance to it's tension strong back
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"If I'm using 2 strips to back the bow then it's one limb at a time. I'm not too concerned about the overlap, as long as it's a decent fit. I let the backing on the first strip extend past the center of the handle and heat-bend it so that it sort of follows around the the crown of the handle. I start clamping the backing at the handle and work my way out to the recurves. My backings are thickness tapered and also pre-bent to follow the contour of the recurve. It doesn't have to be perfect, you'll never get that, but the fit should be pretty good. Then when the first backing is dry I'll sand it so that the next strip will lay flat against it, like an overlap."
Marc, can it be done with just one long backing strip? If so, do you just flatten/round out the back over the splice as best you can and then proceed with the glue up?
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So Marc would hacberry be a good choice
Bubbly, have you ever heat bent hackberry? It bends ridiculously easy. I couldn’t build a bow like Marc's to save my life, but I’d bet that the hackberry would work.
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Marc i've worked with white oak and it bends really well using dry heat and also benefits with heat treating. I have not attempted a reflex deflex though so i don't know how it would work in that regards but i am confident i can get the curves i want with it. I am glad to hear i dont need to add a strip to the back it makes my first attempt at this much easier.
White Ash heat-bends well also but it can't take the compression, it chrysals badly
So Marc would hacberry be a good choice
Marc I am not worried about it chrysaling but that's only because I've always been under the assumption that a deflex reflex bow is less strained then a recurve bow given everything else is the same or am i missing something. If my assumption is correct than i shouldn't have anything to worry about cause i have not had a problem with white oak chrysaling although it does love to take set but i like to trap the back on my white oak bows as well which seems to help.
below are some of the bows I've made with white oak
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[quote author=upstatenybowyer link=topic=63509.msg892478#msg892478 date=1527033235
Marc, can it be done with just one long backing strip? If so, do you just flatten/round out the back over the splice as best you can and then proceed with the glue up?
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Absolutely. I use a power lam over the splice that extends to at least 1" past the fades and it is flattened with my belt sander over the splice. Whichever way you do it the bend at the handle is going to be a bit of a problem simply because of the slight deformation of the strip caused by bending it around the curve. When using one strip I pre-bend the curve around the handle using dry-heat then use my belt sander to flatten the inside of the strip. I also use my belt sander to flatten the inside of the strip at the crown of the handle on a 2 strip backing since I do pre-bend the first strip around the handle as well. Whichever way you use there is a lot of prepping to do.
As an aside, I find it is better, in some ways, to use 2 strip because it's much easier to get 2 pristine strips than 1 full length strip
Marc i've worked with white oak and it bends really well using dry heat and also benefits with heat treating. I have not attempted a reflex deflex though so i don't know how it would work in that regards but i am confident i can get the curves i want with it. I am glad to hear i dont need to add a strip to the back it makes my first attempt at this much easier.
White Ash heat-bends well also but it can't take the compression, it chrysals badly
So Marc would hacberry be a good choice
Marc I am not worried about it chrysaling but that's only because I've always been under the assumption that a deflex reflex bow is less strained then a recurve bow given everything else is the same or am i missing something. If my assumption is correct than i shouldn't have anything to worry about cause i have not had a problem with white oak chrysaling although it does love to take set but i like to trap the back on my white oak bows as well which seems to help.
below are some of the bows I've made with white oak
As I said, I don't know much about White Oak since I don't have easy access to it. I wouldn't make a recurve of any style with White Ash. It's good sinew backed or as a flatbow or as a native style bow but it doesn't like being strained too much
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Nasr, I think you're right about it being less stress with a mild deflex/reflex as opposed to a recurve all else being equal. But Marc's designs are anything but mild. 5" is A LOT of reflex and then you will be adding recurves. I've had wood chrysal with 3" of reflex that otherwise would be fine without it. I would think the deflex is there to allow that large amount stress without breaking or chrysaling the wood badly even when using premium woods like osage/yew/HHB/elm.
Good luck on your build. I will be following this thread closely.
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Marc thank you so much for your time and explaining things i will give it a try if it works or fails we will all atleast learn something about white oak.
Nasr, I think you're right about it being less stress with a mild deflex/reflex as opposed to a recurve all else being equal. But Marc's designs are anything but mild. 5" is A LOT of reflex and then you will be adding recurves. I've had wood chrysal with 3" of reflex that otherwise would be fine without it. I would think the deflex is there to allow that large amount stress without breaking or chrysaling the wood badly even when using premium woods like osage/yew/HHB/elm.
Good luck on your build. I will be following this thread closely.
if i am being completely honest with myself i doubt that i would be able to do what Marc does that is why i will be overbuilding it. That is why i wanted his thoughts on this cause i view everyone here like teachers and i am just a student. But maybe in 20 years i can do what these guys do ;)
i will post pics here for everyone to see i don't know how many people would want to see my efforts i was just gonna let everyone know at the end if it worked or not.
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Marc, this is really great information to have. Thanks so much for taking the time to share your knowledge.
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The bow Marc made me is unbacked and heat bent into reflex. He does do a billet splice to get deflex in the grip area too.
This might be the bow Bob was talking about, I made it for him about 15 years ago. It's a single stave bow of HHB and consistently clocked over 190 FPS on a 27" draw
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just cut the splice and they were ok but there was a small gap there so i boiled the splice since i still have to build a form to reflex the limbs.
while the splices were boiling i did a search on primitive archer about boiling splices and red the you really only need to use dry heat and oil ................rip.
when can i glue these splices? how long until they are dry enough.
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Marc i've seen that beauty before. i hope one day to be able to make a bow like that, such beautiful curves.
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Are those glue on recurves, Marc?
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just cut the splice and they were ok but there was a small gap there so i boiled the splice since i still have to build a form to reflex the limbs.
while the splices were boiling i did a search on primitive archer about boiling splices and red the you really only need to use dry heat and oil ................rip.
when can i glue these splices? how long until they are dry enough.
Dry heat and oil in a splice to be?
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Mark, I will see if Bob still has that bow , maybe we can get him to shoot it in the broadhead event at Mojam.
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just cut the splice and they were ok but there was a small gap there so i boiled the splice since i still have to build a form to reflex the limbs.
while the splices were boiling i did a search on primitive archer about boiling splices and red the you really only need to use dry heat and oil ................rip.
when can i glue these splices? how long until they are dry enough.
Dry heat and oil in a splice to be?
yeah so Marc has said in previous posts about splices that he uses dry heat wihtout oil to fix splices and others have said that same with oil and they would use acetone to remove the oil afterwards
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There was nothing glued on with this bow except the overlays and the bridges. The bow was made from the best HHB I have ever cut. It was a dandy of a tree fully 12'" in diameter. I got a lot of staves out of that tree, I also got very sore shoulders carrying it out of the bush
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I used to have a build along Marc did for his bow but it's gone now. Would love to see that one again.
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Yes I have built several statics with hackberry, bends like butta and smells like popcorn
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If the wood bends easily with dry heat and tends to keep it after tillering then it is a good candidate for a deflex recurve, as long as it doesn't chrysal easily
I used to have a build along Marc did for his bow but it's gone now. Would love to see that one again.
Which particular bow was that?
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So here are some progress pics i should have mentioned that this will be a board bow. I dont have any staves dry yet and the ones i do have are red oak so i wouldnt be able to use it for this project anyway. Still pretty long so when i cut it to its final length it will have 2 inches of deflex then i will recurve the limbs and more at the tips. i went with a v splice and added a back piece and now i will be adding the riser block in after i finish sanding it down. i also kept it pretty wide (1.75"). After i add the riser block i will shape the limbs and reflex them and heat treat them (i will take pics). I am aiming for 50-55 #@28" for this bow. 60 to 62 '' ntn.
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Good start. You are getting after it. So you have 2" deflex measuring how much the tips lift the belly in the middle?
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not in the middle. I put it against a flat surface and measured the distance of where the tips will be from back of bow to the flat surface. If you want i can take pics to better illustrate what i am saying.
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Okay gotcha. I'm trying to think about how much you will be left with after you add reflex....
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Well i am going to attempt to reflex the whole limb to 3 inches past handle and i probably might end up with no reflex at all so it might be straight with the handle. but to be honest i have no clue as i never attempted this design before. tbh my main issue that i am trying to figure out right now is if i should trap the back. I have had good luck with trapping the back on white oak but in those bows I've also heat treated the belly so i am not sure if it was the trapped back or the heat treatment that helped with low set or maybe both.
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I haven't worked with white oak so I don't have anything specific to add there, but I would stick with what worked for you before. Those other bows you posted looked like they came out nice.
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added the riser piece now to shape the limbs to rough dimensions then get them reflexed.
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You'll need to be careful heating and reflexing anywhere near the fades. That glue joint will pop apart if you're not careful.
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more pics the white oak limbs at this point are still more than a half inch thick.
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worked on handle and removed some wood from the belly. Not to happy with how the bends came out my jig need to be worked on so i can get more even bends
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It looks good to me. How much reflex did it retain after you took it off the form? Looks like the white oak bends nicely.
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it is so easy to bend white oak i could of reflexed it a lot more the issue was the form that i made. once i get it tillered to 20" or more i am gonna heat treat it again and i might add more reflex at the tips we will see i want to see how it holds its reflex once it starts bending ill go from there