Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: Pat B on May 30, 2018, 12:20:05 pm
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I have a set of yew billets that Matt cut splices for me at the Classic. Overall the length will be just a hair over 56" t/t and 1 1/2" wide the full length. The handle area is just over 1 1/4" thick and the sapwood is just under 1/2" thick throughout. I plan on sinew backing it. I'm looking for design suggestions. I'll probably kick the tips up to improve the string angle at my 26" draw and looking for 45-50#(mol).
I guess my question is should I deflex the handle(not glued up yet) or keep it straight and/or add reflex throughout?
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I've never sinew backed a yew bow with sapwood, but I have heard other guy mention it will cause the heartwood and sapwood to separate, but I've also heard otherwise. Do you have enough heartwood left if you remove the sapwood? If not, rawhide backing would be a a good option. But I guess that wasn't your question. You really don't need to deflex or reflex, unless you want to. 56" is plenty long for 26" @ 45-50lbs and a thin rawhide backing if your billets are clean.
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Id deflex the splice and recurve the tips, Pat. I would chase all that sapwood off if you decide to sinew it. If not, just chase it down to about 3/16" thick. Thick sapwood and thin heartwood on yew bows can make them mushy and setty. I think it would easily handle your draw unbacked, especially deflexed.
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I glued deflex into the handle on a sinew-backed yew recently. I left sapwood on the handle only for thickness and chased the rest away. Shoots really nice.
http://www.primitivearcher.com/smf/index.php/topic,63271.msg888379.html#msg888379
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I would do as Pearl Drums suggests: deflex the handle, tight recurves. Maybe strip the sapwood off the back but leave it on the recurves. Fade it out just before the recurves where you end the sinew.
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I would take the sapwood down to between 1/8”-1/4” ( or remove it altogether if you want)
Leave it 1 1/2” wide
Flip the tips, reverse brace and sinew that bad boy.
http://www.primitivearcher.com/smf/index.php/topic,30667.0.html
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I'm gonna have to agree with Bryce on this one. Just reverse brace after sinew and really take advantage of that sinew.
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Thanks for the suggestions guys. Unfortunately I don't think I have enough heartwood, 3/8" or less in some areas.
I think I will add some deflex in the handle and recurve the tips.
OK, another question...what glue for the spliced handle? I have Weldwood Plastic Resin, Old Urac(5-6 year in frig) or TB glue. Matt thought the TB would be fine. With an underlay at the splice to fill out the handle I'm thinking either the Weldwood or TB glue would be OK.
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I would use the Weldwood first. I used TB3 on a spliced bow with a filled in handle and its fine.
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I've glued up the splice with some deflex in it and added an underlay riser.
...now my question is, and I normally don't think predetermining limb thickness is relative but in this case I only have 1/4" of heartwood on a small section of one edge about 12" from what will be the bottom limb tip. There is 3/8" of sapwood pretty consistently along the whole
56 1/2" length and the stave is 1 1/2" wide it's full length. I will add 2 to 3 layers of cow sinew with hide glue, reverse brace while sinewing and recurve the last 4" or so of the tips...actually now my question...is 1/4" of heartwood enough if I reduce the sapwood to 1/8" to 1/4" for the working portion of the limbs or can I get by with that thin area along one edge? I plan to get the limbs working right up to the handle area and I'm shooting for a bow of 45# to 55# when done. If I had consistent heartwood the full length it wouldn't be a problem but I'm too unfamiliar with yew to make that decision. :-\
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I remember back a while, Del made a sapwood only bow and it was quite weak. He added a very thin sliver of heartwood to the belly and the weight went way up. Moral-you don't need much heartwood. Look on Del's blog Feb/Mar 2016
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Thanks DC. I'll check it out.
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This is where she is now. 56" t/t pulling about 50#@26". I had planned to sinew back but I'm not sure now. I put about 25 arrows through her yesterday. She shoots pretty good nut not as good as I expected. I may still sinew back but will have to reduce the sapwood first or I won't be able to shoot because too strong.
(https://i.imgur.com/KbPkVCO.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/wTML0UO.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/D3rtdMS.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/gQ5IU4d.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/zE8pnAh.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/Xex9GfH.jpg)
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Fantastic splice work Patty ol' boy. Boogers might even keep that beauty together :)
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I have to thank Matt for the splice. He cut them for me.
The recurves were more pronounced but started pulling out. I steamed them in at full with of the limb and cut them down after to the width they are now. I added the horn underlays but they didn't hold as well as I had hoped.
I'll try to get a full draw pic later.
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It looks real nice. I like the braced picture, it's just a slightly different bend. Funny it's not as fast as you expected.
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That explains it, Matt cuts the best splices I've seen.
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My thoughts too,DC. Maybe if I do sinew back it it will pick up a few fps.
Pearlie, Matt has only done a few thousand splices. Way better than I could have done.
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Just an observation here Pat.It looks like at rest there is 0 reflex put into any of the working limbs.Just recurved tips and that's all.Sort of a straight line fade to tip type deflex?Unless it was induced and pulled out through tillering I don't know.A little reflex induced to the outer third of the limb[midlimb out where it won't pull out too quick] to bring the tips a bit forward might very well increase the early poundage enough to bring the overall poundage up on it's own without sinew.Of course that increases stress on that length of bow too but with the deflex profile still there that should relieve the stress some yet.
Very nice work so far though.Nice looking bow.Of course reverse bracing after sinewing will accomplish that reflexing for you too.
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Have you chronoed it? Sometimes smooth masks speed.
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Just an observation here Pat.It looks like at rest there is 0 reflex put into any of the working limbs.Just recurved tips and that's all.Sort of a straight line fade to tip type deflex?Unless it was induced and pulled out through tillering I don't know.A little reflex induced to the outer third of the limb[midlimb out] to bring the tips a bit forward might very well increase the early poundage enough to bring the overall poundage up on it's own without sinew.Of course that increases stress on that length of bow too but with the deflex profile still there that should relieve the stress some yet.
Very nice work so far though.Of course reverse bracing after sinewing will accomplish that reflexing for you too.
I missed that. Even with the recurves the tips are still quite a bit behind the handle.
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At rest they look to not be or I mean the tips not behind or above the handle.That's why there is the rounded look at brace in the working limbs opposed to it looking more angular looking at brace.
Top notch beautiful splice work on that handle I might add.
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Ed and DC, I had reflex added to the limbs and recurved tips but most has worked itself out. I used steam for the recurves and dry heat(with oil) for the reflex and alignment.
I have what I need for a few layers of sinew but in our humid summers sinew only works well in the drier winters. I haven't used much yew so I don't know how heat treating the belly would work to help hold any added reflex.
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I see.I believe your right then Pat.Making changes with dry heat to a bow already full drawn can be a risky adventure most times with most woods.Getting yew too dry is not a good idea.Sinewing might be your best option here on this yew.
I've used plenty of beef backstrap with very good success before.I especially liked the long lengths I got from it.
Sinewing will just take longer to cure really in higher humidity.It'll cure.Just give it time as humidity gets lower.
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Thanks for the offer, ED but I have plenty of beef sinew, already shredded and ready to go and lots of good hide glue. It's the same as I used on the recurve I posted a few days ago. I may go that route, that was my original plan anyhow to sinew back this bow.
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...and full draw.
(https://i.imgur.com/cMt6CGA.jpg)
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Nice bend Pat! Cheers- Brendan
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Good looking full draw Pat and very nice handle splice, sinewing it will do the trick I think!
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Looks real good Bud ! Bob
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whew talk about adapt and overcome. thats one beautiful bow!!!!
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Thanks guys
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I’m assuming thats the unbacked full draw?
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It really does look great, Pat. I like that braced shot and the f/d. Bummer to read you feel it's sluggish because all the pieces look well thought out.
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Ryan, yes, that is an unbacked full draw.
Steve, I didn't chrono just not what I expected. I think once I add sinew and add some reflex I'll be more satisfied. That was my original idea anyway.
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I'm finally getting around to adding a sinew backing today. I added a little reflex by pulling the handle down and secured it with a strip of sinew. The sinew backing will incorporate this sinew hold down and I'll cut off the excess after the sinew dries.
(https://i.imgur.com/Vs7pGFs.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/qc1a2ez.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/pFen0fx.jpg)
First though time to prep the limbs. I scrubbed the limbs with Dawn dish soap then rinsed with boiling water.
(https://i.imgur.com/s6rnNwR.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/nuV0MAF.jpg)
Then I put the bow on the form and pulled it in to a slight reflex with the sinew then sized the back with the wormed hide glue. I think the wet surface helps the glue sink into the wood....
(https://i.imgur.com/f2rVPTK.jpg)
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I started at the handle with the first sinew then continued down the center of each limb and filled in out to the edges and slightly over the edges.
(https://i.imgur.com/Vu26esH.jpg)
You can see how the hold down sinew will blend right in with the backing sinew.
(https://i.imgur.com/xmzCyif.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/h1ZHxjY.jpg)
I'll give this a couple of days to dry some so I can see any voids and fill them with sinew to even out the backing.
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I think you are right Pat,, if the tips can come a bit further forward with the sinew,, I think it will shoot a bit harder,, I have found that with most my sinew bows ,,,, if the tips can come in front of the handle they shoot quite a bit harder,, Im sure yours gonna shoot great with the sinew on there,, the reflex and reduction in mass when you tiller will compensate for any weight you added with the sinew, :)
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Good idea with the double boiler setup; I’ve been thinking about how to do something without investing in a hot plate. Momma’s candle warmer only gets me to about 105 Degrees.
Looking forward to this one. Looks great so far. I have yew billets I’m going to start this winter.
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Glad to see this one on the board again Pat. I've got a good feeling about this bow. :OK
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Hoosier, I think I paid $5 for the crock pot at a thrift shop. It works well. It doesn't have controls so if it gets too hot I either add cold water or just unplug it. It stays hot for a while after unplugging.
Thanks upstate. I added a course of bison sinew today so it's gotta dry for a while. Once it's cured I'll have to retiller and reduce some weight too. Once that's done I'll skin her.
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I added another layer of sinew yesterday. This was bison leg sinew which is pretty long. I presoaked the sinew in warm water to soften it and when I dipper it in the hide glue and squeegeed off the excess glue I had ribbons of sinew to lay down. This gave me a pretty smooth top layer. I also brought the blocks in a bit. This put the tips about 1 3/4" past the handle. Now we'll see if the sinew will maintain that reflex or if I'm lucky add a bit more.
Here are a few pics from this morning...
(https://i.imgur.com/RaeOk8v.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/APT3EJM.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/Y4nNrGd.jpg)
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A month after I added the last of the sinew I released the bow yesterday. She came out holding about 2" of reflex. As you can see from the pics the reflex is uneven but the bow has taken on so much extra weight I'll be able to retiller and I think the reflex will even increase some as I weaken the limbs. Here are a few pics...
(https://i.imgur.com/Ti0n1IZ.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/3kdyC6X.jpg)
...to be continued...
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yep,, Pat dont worry,, it could even out a bit when you get it strung,,always hard to tell how they gonna settle in,, looking great
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Thanks Brad. She has evened out a bit.
I did a little tillering this afternoon. She's pulling 50#@23" now so I still have about 9# to loose. I didn't pick up the added reflex like I expected and even lost a little. I'll have to see how she shoots when I get the weight down more. Here are 2 more pics, from the right side and the left side.
(https://i.imgur.com/GWWnU3Q.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/uO9JEAa.jpg)
...more to come later...
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Finished the tillering and adding the Tru-Oil now. She lost most all of the reflex but still holds about an inch after being strung. She is pulling 48#@26" now, just about right for me these days. Once I get all the finish work done I'll post all the required pics.
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Nice work Pat I will be glad to see the finished pictures.
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"S'bout Time" ! Well, that's her name. I wonder why!
Finally got her done. She pulls 48#@26", lost most of her reflex but still shoots nice. The skin(from Clint) is a yellow phased timber rattler and is over 3 layers of sinew, 2 layers of cow leg sinew and one of moose leg sinew. Tip overlays are cow horn and the handle wrap is double strands of hemp cord, one tan the other brown with a floppy rest.
Here are a few pics...
(https://i.imgur.com/SRNeHfn.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/vYXMZw3.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/SIjYvwA.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/wdWZJfv.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/s6sxNhu.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/RhoT1tb.jpg)
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Looks nice. Worth the wait ;D
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What a cool little bow!
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very nice congrats :)
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Thanks guys. S'bout time, ain't it. ;)
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Beautiful bow Pat!
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Whoo hoo, nice work Pat as always. She bends a lot like Elkie. There is nothing wrong with taking your time, haste makes waste.
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dandy looking f/d.
glad to see your snow has left.
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Sweet :OK ! Bob
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You sure know how to dress one up and still keep the primitive look .i think alot of the new talented builders are still a step behind the old master.
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Nice one Pat
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Thanks guys. I don't build many any more so when I do I like to make them look good. Clint was a big help sending the snake skins to me for this bow.
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That was definately worth waiting for. Turned out beautiful!
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That's a really lovely bow Pat, congrats!
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Awesome Pat. Ya saw her through! (-S
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That is a mighty fine bow there, my friend. Jawge
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That turned out nice for you Pat.Congrats.
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Turned out great. Thanks for taking the time to do this build along Pat. D'at was worth the wait!
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Cool, cool, cool. Love it and I’ll bet she’s speedy.
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Awesome Pat! Thanks for taking us along. Did you weight the amount of sinew you laid down?
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Thanks guys.
Aaron, no I didn't weigh the sinew. I add the first layer as evenly as I can then use the second layer to fill in the voids. The final layer I used long, moose leg sinew to smooth out the top layer. I've never weighed or measured sinew before adding it.
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That's a stunning outcome Pat - Bend ist great and I always followed your build along with great interest. It inspired me to get some sinew. Cheers
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Pat the color of the string silencers on the bow ,,,what are they from ?
They go well with with the whole setup.
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Ohma, that is sheep's fleece that Clint sent me. I assume he dyed it or got it already that color. Art Butner first showed me fleece like this for string silencers and it really works well. It holds up a lot better in wet conditions than other string silencers I've used.
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The silencers look to be bark tanned shearling. Its kinda expensive but great stuff with lots of practical applications. You can find it at Tandy Leather.
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Just read this from your link on the other post. Really nice job Pat. I love the way stuck with it. Do you think the sinew improved the way it shoots compared to the unbacked version?
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Sidewinder, because the recurves pulled out I think I lost the extra performance I was hoping for with the sinew. She still shoots well though, just not quite what I was hoping for. This is my first sinew backed yew bow so I don't really have anything to compare it to.
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Is think if you just over compensate a bit on the next one, it will improve, the sinew is tricky,,