Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: MattZA on June 13, 2018, 02:00:37 am
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Hi all!
This is my first post, so I thought I'd introduce myself first :)
My name is Matt, and I'm a 28 year old from South Africa. Like the rest of you, I've always had a passion for traditional archery. I started off with a store bought kids bow that flung an arrow about as effectively as if I had just thrown the damn thing ;D.
Despite that, I loved it. Ironically, when I showed some promise, my old man bought me a compound bow and my interest wained. Because cams and sights seem a bit daft, to be honest.
Years later and I've moved to a property with enough space to shoot a bow comfortably. I decided to see whether or not I can actually make a functional bow, so I bought a pine plank and decided to give it a whirl. No research, no power tools, no idea what I was doing. I used a pen knife only. It looks disgusting, the string follow is awful, but it has somehow settled at 37# @28.
The bug has bitten, suffice it to say.
I managed to get my hands on some Garapa wood, because here in SA not even lumber shops have heard of Osage.
I'm a teacher as a profession, and some of my students have been asking me to give them introductory lessons (we have a couple of archery butts at school). I've allowed the kids (13 years old) to use my pine plank, but I've noticed they don't tend to draw it far enough to reach any decent speed. The design is a basic pyramid flat bow shape, with crudely glued on 'horn nocks'.
I was wondering if anyone has any ideas about a better design to use with my Garapa wood? I was thinking a slight reflex/deflex shape with static recurves, because my (very rudimentary) understanding suggests that'll be efficient at lower draw lengths. My main student is also keen on horse archery, so I was considering that shape (Han Dynasty-like) to help her adapt. 40# is my ideal weight.
Thanks a lot! Great to be here among you all!
Matt.
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I’d go for a r/d pyramid. It’s a simple design that performs quite well. If you plan on doing a reflex-deflex, I’d suggest makng a caul, though it’s not entirely necessary, just keeps things neat.
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I’d go for a r/d pyramid. It’s a simple design that performs quite well. If you plan on doing a reflex-deflex, I’d suggest makng a caul, though it’s not entirely necessary, just keeps things neat.
Thanks man, that does seem like a loss less work. Would siyahs actually do anything beneficial in these designs, or would they just slow the bow down?
Apologies for my ignorance, but as far as I know a caul is effectively a preset cast with clamps? Am I missing anything about them?
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Welcome to PA Matt. Do you know the reason they under draw? Are they drawing to their proper draw length or short drawing? If they are short drawing then why? Is it because the string hurts their fingers? Is it because it pulls to hard for them. I find the same results and questions with first time kids or even many adults.
Gloves or tab may help the fingers hurting part. Also can use those finger things you put on string sorry can't think of the name right now. "No glove" maybe.
If they are drawing to their proper draw length but not effective draw length for bow, then simply making a shorter bow with a shorter draw length at your effective draw weight might help. One problem with kids is they are always growing so hard to keep them in optimum range for long. Also they start out all different sizes in the first place. That's why we make custom bows to our individual draw lengths.
Is it because it's to hard for them to pull? You have to remember that the muscles we use to draw a bow are muscles we really don't use for anything else. It's very common for big strong guys that have never shot a bow not to be able to draw to the proper ancher. These muscles will strengthen fast if they keep shooting.
It could be a combination of all the above.
Sorry I can't help you with your wood type. These are some questions to try to find the answer to though.
Great you got the bug. Great your trying to pass it on.
Good Luck
Bjrogg
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Matt I just bumped a kids bow I made a few months ago. It's titled "Old-n-Young" it's made for younger kids than your teaching but with the right arrows this little bow is a blast to shoot, even at a 15" draw pulling 9.8 lbs. The best part is the little 4 to 6 year old kids can properly shoot it. Still gotta get some pictures of that.
Bjrogg
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Welcome to PA Matt. Do you know the reason they under draw? Are they drawing to their proper draw length or short drawing? If they are short drawing then why? Is it because the string hurts their fingers? Is it because it pulls to hard for them. I find the same results and questions with first time kids or even many adults.
Gloves or tab may help the fingers hurting part. Also can use those finger things you put on string sorry can't think of the name right now. "No glove" maybe.
If they are drawing to their proper draw length but not effective draw length for bow, then simply making a shorter bow with a shorter draw length at your effective draw weight might help. One problem with kids is they are always growing so hard to keep them in optimum range for long. Also they start out all different sizes in the first place. That's why we make custom bows to our individual draw lengths.
Is it because it's to hard for them to pull? You have to remember that the muscles we use to draw a bow are muscles we really don't use for anything else. It's very common for big strong guys that have never shot a bow not to be able to draw to the proper ancher. These muscles will strengthen fast if they keep shooting.
It could be a combination of all the above.
Sorry I can't help you with your wood type. These are some questions to try to find the answer to though.
Great you got the bug. Great your trying to pass it on.
Good Luck
Bjrogg
Hey Bjrogg, thanks for the response!
Of the 3 kids I currently teach, one has their own bow, which is fine. The second is quite a strong lad, who's using an old PSE recurve #25 bow the school had. The last one is the one I am concerned about. She's 13, and pretty short. She isn't struggling with the draw weight of my pine bow (#37). I suspect her draw length is just rather short, and she tells me she's simply comfortable drawing to where she is, which is about 21 inches. It's definitely not a matter of finger pain.
It's obviously not very common for someone to be able to draw 40#, but only have a length of 21 inches. I know it's blasphemy on here, but I even resorted to backing my pine bow with f/g tape just to try and get some extra early draw purchase.
Hence my thinking of a reflex deflex shape and sticking some siyahs on to try and raise that initial tension? Is it even possible to make such a bow without a backing, though?
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Also, what a great looking little bow, Bjrogg!
I really wish we had Osage down here in SA. The only hardwood for sale in our equivalent of Home Depot is called Meranti, and I know nothing about it.
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Thanks Matt. I couldn't help myself and had to bump another of my kids bows. This one is probably a better design for the young lady your describing although both would work. Making kids bows is just as complicated and maybe even more so than adults. The trick for me is to get the draw length and weight that fits the individual. Then matching arrows to it. Grandpa's Toy is probably pretty good design but with a little more weight for the lady you mentioned. I'm short to so totally understand the short draw delima. For me static recurves help a lot with early string tension. Long bows with deflex designed for longer draws seem very soft and slow for me. It's all about making it fit. FG isn't a dirty word for kids to me. Just keep em shooting.
Bjrogg
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I've got the opposite problem, ha ha. I've got orangutan arms and no muscle strength to speak of. So my draw length is between 29 and 30, but I don't have the strength to pull more than 50 pounds. That said, I've only been back in the game for about a month after a 15 year hiatus.
The reason why I mentioned the siyahs is because she's very keen on traditional horse archery (she's already a national rider).
Do you reckon it's possible to build a 40# reflex deflex with siyahs and either no backing or glass tape as a back? She's growing like a bean pole, so I want it useable at her current draw, but capable of 28 inches.
Damn tough ask, I know!
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I have never built one with siyahs but they are basically a static recurve. I'm sure it's possible to build a bow like you described to fit her now. To make one that fits her now but also at a 28" or29" draw not so much. I don't have any experience with the FG tape but from what I e heard wouldn't put a lot of faith in it. Rawhide or sinew would be much better options.
Sorry I really gotta go now. Hope I was of some help.
Bjrogg
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Plenty of help!
Cheers mate, I appreciate all the help!
Matt
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I'm pretty sure you will not get much help moving from a basic pyramid design
I'd check first her draw length even with a toy bow (branch and rope) just to have a starting point
then i'd make a low weight bow with very easy design. 25 # max at her drawlength. you may compensate with light arrows
She has to find easy to shoot not struggle to draw
Just to give you a reference one of my daughters shoot this bow (with regular string and arrows). Apart aesthetic recurved tips it's a basic pyramid
http://www.primitivearcher.com/smf/index.php/topic,50771.msg695560.html#msg695560
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I agree with Glis. It's not so much the design as the fit. Just like a pair of shoes. Kids just gotta have shoes that fit and their going to outgrow them. Probably a more simple design till you gain some experience will go further in the long run..
Bjrogg
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I'm pretty sure you will not get much help moving from a basic pyramid design
I'd check first her draw length even with a toy bow (branch and rope) just to have a starting point
then i'd make a low weight bow with very easy design. 25 # max at her drawlength. you may compensate with light arrows
She has to find easy to shoot not struggle to draw
Just to give you a reference one of my daughters shoot this bow (with regular string and arrows). Apart aesthetic recurved tips it's a basic pyramid
http://www.primitivearcher.com/smf/index.php/topic,50771.msg695560.html#msg695560
That's a fantastic looking bow, man. I admire the smoothness of its understated appearance.
Okay I just measured her draw length and it's just under 22". As I say, she's totally capable of drawing 35-40# without any strain. So at least I have that going for me in terms of freedom.
I was given two Garapa boards of 2m each for free, because the guy at the lumber shop was so curious (nobody in SA makes their own bows, it seems). So I'll probably use one to fiddle around with reflex deflex, and then the second one I'll just focus on creating as efficient as possible 30# pyramid. At least that could be used by more than just her.
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Yea I admit my experience is severely lacking. One successful pine bow does not a bowyer make, haha.
One day when I've won the lotto I'll have the time to make a proper Mongolian flight bow or a Yumi. Those shapes give me shivers they're so beautiful.
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Hi Matt
Im also a saffer. Where in S.A. are you situated?
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Hi Matt
Im also a saffer. Where in S.A. are you situated?
Hey Louie, I'm based in Jo'burg. Fourways.
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I'm in the cape. I can help you source wood like ipe, massaranduba, hickory, white oak, elm, maple. Send me your number in a PM and I'll gladly help you out. There are a few fantastic bowyers here in S.A.
Welcome to the addiction.
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I sent you a PM, but not sure it went through. I'll try again.
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If she has a 22" draw build a pyramid bow about 56" long, plenty of length for that draw weight. Siyahs are probably above your skill level
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http://www.primitivearcher.com/smf/index.php/topic,35312.msg464947.html#msg464947
Try this build a long just make the bow shorter
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http://www.primitivearcher.com/smf/index.php/topic,35312.msg464947.html#msg464947
Try this build a long just make the bow shorter
Thanks bubby, that's pretty much exactly what I'm doing. I've got my bow roughed out, and will start rough tillering tomorrow. Just don't have the time tonight.
Are siyahs technical to build? I was considering gluing and wrapping static recurves onto the tips. Even if at a slight angle, would that not add any effect?
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Update:
I have been following Bubby's guide on a simple flat bow. During tillering a crack suddenly appeared by the handle. Is it firewood? Could it be used as a 30# bow instead of a 45#? I've even backed it with fibreglass drywall tape to try protect it.
Any advice would be appreciated. I'll post a photo soon.
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Here you can see the crack. About 1/2 an inch off the fader.
https://photos.app.goo.gl/BHQ6mz7RuKra7Xkt6
Sorry about the link. It wouldn't let me share it here.
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Doesn't look good. Is the back of the bow at the bottom of the picture?
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Yup the bottom is the back.
I've since sanded it down a lot, applied fibreglass drywall tape, and stuck that down with tb3.
Enough to keep it safe at 25#?
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I've never used FG tape. I would throw it away and start again. It's hard to help when I've no experience with the wood you're using but I would guess that the wood is no good or you bent it too hard. Were you using a scale?
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Were you using a scale?
No I wasn't. That's the problem. I was just going on feel, and what I assumed was 50# was probably more like 70#. The wood itself works well though, by the way. Garapa / Brazilian Ash. Definitely worth a look in.
I'll try and turn it into a proper light bow, and if it fails then it fails. I've got another identical board to try again.
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A five gallon bucket almost full of water weighs about 40#. Try something along those line. You may prefer cubic hectares per fortnight or somesuch ;D ;D ;D
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Not thinking that one is going to make it Matt. I've never used FG tape but really can't imagine it taking that much stress. I'd be looking for another piece of wood. I really couldn't tell from picture. Was it a board? Did the grain run off the back there? Was the tiller poor? Most stress is right out of handle. To relieve the stress it must be evenly spread over the entire limb. This is achieved by tapering the width and or the thickness to make a evenly bending bow. The two most important steps in bow building are a clean unviolated ring on the back, and probably even more importantly a well tillered belly. It can be heart breaking, but we need to learn from our failures as well as our successes. Never draw your bow to a heavier weight than you want it end up at. If it's bending to much in one area and then stiff just past it don't keep bending it. Put a pencil mark x at the bend(hinge) and don't remove wood from that area. Put pencil mark lines where it's not bending and scrape off the lines. Take your time. This is where you really become a bowyer.
Good Luck and keep on trying
Bjrogg
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take a look at your picture. If you start on the left and follow the grain lines you will see that 4-6 of them run out the back of the bow before you get across the picture. 4-6 of those "runouts" is way too many in, what is that, 2". You're looking for that many in the whole limb. For me it's way easier to crash through the bush looking for a stave than it is to find a good board. You want to find a perfect board. And then look for one a bit better ;D ;D
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That cracked because of bad grain runoff towards the back of the bow. You don't need perfect grain but it can't run out onto the back. I'm sure with proper grain that wood will work
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You may prefer cubic hectares per fortnight or somesuch ;D ;D ;D
;D ;D ;D
Close, but not quite. Cubic hectares per moon cycle haha.
Great tip about the water though. Thanks
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Here's the link to the photos of the bow. Such a pity about the crack. Tiller is slightly uneven, I know. I'm just too upset to fix it right now ;D
https://photos.app.goo.gl/HKCnp34kqBNtT5BD9
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On your last picture (the one showing the crack) it looks like you cut out the limb diagonally to the grain. This is doomed to fail. I don‘t know anything about the properties of Garapa wood, but I don’t think even hickory would tolerate this layout.
Even in board bows the limbs have to follow the grain.
Just my two cents...
Torsten
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Right, the results are in.
It's very weird, but here we go...
After 250 arrows, my bow weighs 35# at 28". It flings arrows at a pretty quick rate too. Without a chrono, it looks/feels/penetrates about the same as the 35# PSE Razorback recurve I've got. It has about an inch and a bit of string follow, but that doesn't feel too bad. It does stack quite a bit, with it reaching about 41# at 29".
The crack we mentioned has yet to open up at all. Not even a creak to speak of. I fixed the tiller so it's now very balanced. Obviously I had to reduce the poundage, but I'll take it. Tip to tip it's pretty short at 60". Nock to nock is ~58". I tillered it up to 30" though, to make sure that crack doesn't appear again. Overall I'm not too disappointed.
After all, it is only my second bow I've ever made. I've learned my lesson, and will improve with the next one.
For others who may follow: Garapa is clearly a decent bow wood.
Thanks all for the advice. I truly appreciate it.
Matt.
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Well, there's the right way and then there's Fibre Glass ;D ;D ;D. I'm glad you got a shooter out of it. Just for your info Fibre Glass is a four letter word on this site. We don't use it and try not to talk about it. Kind of snobbish in a way. But it saved your bow, try not to depend on it ;D ;D
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Oh I know it is. And I totally understand why.
The only reason why I'm using it is because this bow is going towards the kids I'm teaching about traditional archery. I just use the fibre for extra safety. I don't want parents suing me. If it was my own bow I'd back it with something traditional.
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Good point