Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: CrescentWalk on June 20, 2018, 08:51:47 pm
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Some bowyers use exact measurements down to very small increments of measure and lay out everything beforehand (and there's nothing wrong with this) but does anyone else build their bow's "free hand" (for lack of a better term) and just let the wood become the bow it want's to become? I watched Ed Scott's video and he said that he very rarely take's measurements himself and the bow that he built during his video had no layout on it. I tried doing the whole layout thing and it not only seemed extremely difficult, but it also killed the joy of building a bow (for me). Does anyone else build bow's free hand and let the stave naturally become a bow as you work on it?
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I measure the length,center and free hand from there using a pencil!pearl made post one a while back in the manner that you speak!some designs I stay faithful to the rule.
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The only measure I take is the center and the overall length.
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That's how I was taught by my native instructor. I messed up a lot of bows trying to figure out what the hell I was doing. I only started measuring things out once I located usable board wood. It is a lot quicker measuring things out. I think on a really wonky stave like the aboriginals here use, you kind of have to adapt as you go into the wood. None of their bows are high performers, but their system isn't as much about performance as accuracy. Short range, long bows, heavy arrows. They actually laughed at me the first time I brought a teak pyramid bow I made that was a sharp and fast shooter to the village. They said it sounded wrong and the arrow went too straight and quick into the target. They kind of sink and drop an arrow into the spot they are aiming at rather than aiming right for a spot due to the low draw weight of their bows and heavy weight of their arrows. In a system like that, you don't need much of a bow, so you don't need much of a plan when making it. Definitely feel and looks primitive when you are finished with one.
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I have on occasion, one of 'em is a fave' bow and a great performer.
Del
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Welcome to PA CrescentWalk. I do like Badger. Measure center and overall length. Also handle and fade roughly measured out. After that it's what my eyes and draw knife like. The bow usually seems to know where it is.
Bjrogg
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I do. Sometimes I'll measure after the bow is done for reference. It's not hard to get basic dimensions by just using your height and arm span.
I have trouble keeping track of a measuring tape.
Certainly calipers and the like are never used.
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I love watching guys like Terry Hughes, DVS, and Robert Powell makes bows that way...it always reminds me of Chevy Chase in Caddyshack... "Na-na-na-na-na-na-na-na-plunk" 8)
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Thanks for the response guys and thanks for the welcome! I always thought bow's were supposed to be made without a layout so that's how I started.
I do the same as you guys and just measure my center line (where to place my handle) and length. If the bow has a taper point (like a mollegabet) I will also place a reference line on both limb's so that I know where to begin the taper if I want my taper to start at the same point on both limb's.
If someone was feeling really primitive they could just cut a stick and place it on the centerline and use that as a reference of where to place the taper on both limbs.
The current bow that I'm working on is a mollegabet made out of Honey Locust and it is coming out quite good.
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Interesting question. I've never made a wood bow just "freehand"; always measured something. In the beginning, I measured EVERYTHING, but now measurements are to get me in the ballpark and then I let the wood tell me what it will or will not do. The measuring aids the "scientific" aspect of making a bow. I now know that a bow between 65 and 70 inches in length seems to work best for me, that I prefer a handle about 4 1/2 inches long and about 1 and 1/2 inches wide. I don't NEED to measure so much now, but, as an aid to my eye, I do it.
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I am not doing this, I even use sometimes AutoCAD to help me regarding some tapers. We engineers don't like doing bows free handed. Except snaky profiles of course. :D
Now regarding past, I don't think people didn't use references or even simple measuring tools when constructing bows. They definitely did in medieval Europe but I think they even did in prehistory. You know, "go for three fingers wide there", "initial thickness like width of thumb" and so on.
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I measure the center line and go from there. The wood usually tells me the rest of the lay out. I only use hand tools so it makes following the grain easier.
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I layout a center line, the bow width with a circle template on the center line and the side profile with a shrinking pencil line. I free hand the final taper to the skinny tips but that is about except for free form shaping of the handle.
My bows are very distinctive, I can recognize one from 50 yards away.
I call my method "Eric's goof proof method of bow making" it works for me.
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Made a number of them in the beginning on hot days holding them my arms length span then tilt my head forward to put a drop of sweat on the center off my nose with that being center.Mark that.Grip it and mark my handle.Three fingers for each fade.Then draw the center line and go from there by eyeball width wise and taper.Thickness marking a fat tapered 3/8" line.Just using hand tools of a hatchet,draw knife,pocket knife and a pencil.
I do a little more measuring nowadays and have a band saw also.
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I do only on sapling or sucker bows that are small diameter. Full staves get a full, accurate layout. I do the same as Eric mentioned above.
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I have made them free hand, but I can't stand asymmetry, so I measure everything with a calipers, making sure every point on each limb is the same as the other limb at that point, in width, NOT thickness. To me, that's enjoyable part, but I have a very analytical and engineering mind. The artsy folks are more likely to do their stuff free form. No wrong or right, both ways make nice bows.
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Well said Eric, I'm somewhere in the middle, but more towards symmetry than art.
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I agree. I don't use a band saw either so often I'll split wood off the side to find my bow that's left. I definitely agree either way is great. Whatever makes you the bow your looking for.
Bjrogg
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I've found that my eyes are plenty good enough, I just have to learn to trust them. The other day i was sighting down a limb and I spotted a few inches that looked wider. I measured it with the calipers and that one spot was .030" wider. 30 thou and it stood out like a sore thumb. So I scraped it off and sure enough the limb looked better. Eyes are amazing things.
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I measure length, width, handle, and draw the center line following the grain. Jawge
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I measure the center line and go from there. The wood usually tells me the rest of the lay out. I only use hand tools so it makes following the grain easier.
Yup. I notice that when using hand tool's it's very easy to get a bow/stave practically perfectly straight by following the grain. I'm still a novice but now I can look at a stave, feel the weight of it, bend some thick pieces of wood hanging off of it and get a very good feel for the draw weight, draw length, and bow design I can get out of a particular stave without using measurements or laying it out.
I am not doing this, I even use sometimes AutoCAD to help me regarding some tapers. We engineers don't like doing bows free handed. Except snaky profiles of course. :D
Now regarding past, I don't think people didn't use references or even simple measuring tools when constructing bows. They definitely did in medieval Europe but I think they even did in prehistory. You know, "go for three fingers wide there", "initial thickness like width of thumb" and so on.
I think that in the past they did at least get the center line sorted out because most of the bow's found are pretty symmetrical while some are not symmetrical but a lot of them have equal limb length's on either side of the center line.
I was reading some time ago about how the tapers on some of the English Warbow's had odd tapers on both their bow's and arrow's. So I'd guess they did very crude measurements (such as marking the center line and length of the stave) and did everything else free hand.
Of course I could be wrong but I made a bend through the handle longbow made out of Sumac just marking the center line and taper point (where the taper begins) and it's my fastest shooting bow to date.
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Very cool. How did you do the taper, just pencil and free handed? Just googled sumac, it seems I saw that brush numerous times but your grew to be enough for timber. Very good looking color.
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Very cool. How did you do the taper, just pencil and free handed? Just googled sumac, it seems I saw that brush numerous times but your grew to be enough for timber. Very good looking color.
I tapered very slowly with a rasp until it looked right and felt right. The eye's are very good at noticing symmetry I have learned and I just matched up both tips based off of how they looked and felt.
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Just measure the center and the length and that’s it. Will draw handle shapes and basic profile etc on the bow but I do that freehand. Only hand tools and I think that goes well without measuring
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Hi,
I use a string, axe, rasp and file and charcoal to draw my design out with and the string to find centre. My bow lengths are my wing span. I just use my fingers to judge thickness taper, my eyes and the growth rings on the belly to help with the thickness taper. My bows take forever to make. But if you love what you do, time does not matter.
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Hi,
I use a string, axe, rasp and file and charcoal to draw my design out with and the string to find centre. My bow lengths are my wing span. I just use my fingers to judge thickness taper, my eyes and the growth rings on the belly to help with the thickness taper. My bows take forever to make. But if you love what you do, time does not matter.
Very interesting (and primitive) way you go about building bow's. I'd enjoy watching you build one.
My bow's take quite a while to build as well (about a month or so taking my time but I could easily take two month's on a bow). I've learned that the slower that I go, the better that my bow's turn out. I try to treat each bow as though it will be the bow that has to last me the rest of my life time which means taking extra care and taking my time.
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Great thread guys, very interesting. As a newbie, I rather enjoy measuring and marking, I spend a lot of time laying it out. Maybe with experience I'll get away from that.
One quick point:
Grammar Nazi says...the plural of bow is bows
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Very interesting (and primitive) way you go about building bow's. I'd enjoy watching you build one.
My bow's take quite a while to build as well (about a month or so taking my time but I could easily take two month's on a bow). I've learned that the slower that I go, the better that my bow's turn out. I try to treat each bow as though it will be the bow that has to last me the rest of my life time which means taking extra care and taking my time.
Yes for sure, the slower you go the more accurate your work is. Next time you have a new stave, try making the bow a custom fit for your body. Your wingspan will be more than enough length for an arrow that is measured from your breast plate (sternum). With minimal tools and try imagining how to tiller it just using your arms or legs without all the extras. You can feel the balance of the limbs just by putting the middle of the bow on your knee and pulling the limbs backwards and fowards slowly. You can tiller using shadow outdoors from the sun or hold the bowstring away from you and pull it away from you at eye level and look down the bow to see the stiff spots. Or you can put the bow on the floor and put your foot in the middle and slowly pull the bow string up and you can see the bend. Lots of simple ways to tiller without a tiller tool. You will become a much better bowyer for it when you atune your problem solving skills without all the extra crap like tillering sticks and calipers. All you need is a sharp edge, some string, a marker of sorts and your brain. Plus a lot of time! All the extras making the job easier, but where is the fun in that?
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Very interesting (and primitive) way you go about building bow's. I'd enjoy watching you build one.
My bow's take quite a while to build as well (about a month or so taking my time but I could easily take two month's on a bow). I've learned that the slower that I go, the better that my bow's turn out. I try to treat each bow as though it will be the bow that has to last me the rest of my life time which means taking extra care and taking my time.
Yes for sure, the slower you go the more accurate your work is. Next time you have a new stave, try making the bow a custom fit for your body. Your wingspan will be more than enough length for an arrow that is measured from your breast plate (sternum). With minimal tools and try imagining how to tiller it just using your arms or legs without all the extras. You can feel the balance of the limbs just by putting the middle of the bow on your knee and pulling the limbs backwards and fowards slowly. You can tiller using shadow outdoors from the sun or hold the bowstring away from you and pull it away from you at eye level and look down the bow to see the stiff spots. Or you can put the bow on the floor and put your foot in the middle and slowly pull the bow string up and you can see the bend. Lots of simple ways to tiller without a tiller tool. You will become a much better bowyer for it when you atune your problem solving skills without all the extra crap like tillering sticks and calipers. All you need is a sharp edge, some string, a marker of sorts and your brain. Plus a lot of time! All the extras making the job easier, but where is the fun in that?
Absolutely. I try to keep thing's as simple as possible and most importantly, to take my time. I started out tillering my bow's using a mirror only but just started using a tillering tree very recently and it is the way to go in my opinion unless I'm building a bow with one not available in which case I'd use a tree as my tillering tree.
From a historic perspective, I don't see why bowyer's from 1000+ years ago would have not used tillering trees. Pulley's have been around for thousand's of years and are simple to build even out of stone.
I do have to admit I'm pretty dogmatic about the way that I build bow's. I keep it Amish style and use no electric tools or gadget's since I find the traditional way (and the traditional hand tools) of doing things much more satisfying.
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I could but I don't. Calibers on occasion but not usualy. A lot by feeling deminishing mass while both limbs bend as even as possible. Still learning what to do with the mass in different designs. Seldom getting away from Osage. Always a learning process. Arvin