Primitive Archer

Main Discussion Area => Muzzleloaders => Topic started by: Parnell on July 15, 2018, 11:06:30 am

Title: Trade Gun Project
Post by: Parnell on July 15, 2018, 11:06:30 am
This .62 smoothbore kit will be a next step for me having completed a Lyman Plains kit previously.  I壇 like to think that the next will be a submersion into inletting but I知 excited about this assembly.  I値l need advice further along with any helpful insight into soldering the underlugs, pinning the barrel, drilling the touch hole, and whatever else need be.  I picked up the book which is great and packed with examples and information.  I知 in no rush...looking forward to learning a bit more.

I値l be progressing and posting pictures.

So...I知 open to advice.  Where would you begin?
Title: Re: Trade Gun Project
Post by: Pat B on July 15, 2018, 01:24:45 pm
Looks like a fun project, Steve. Looking forward to watching your progress.   :OK   :-M
Title: Re: Trade Gun Project
Post by: Eric Krewson on July 15, 2018, 02:10:34 pm
Put the barrel in place, mark where the touch hole should be, put your lock in as close to the existing inlet as possible and see if the pan centers your touch hole and is at the sunset position.

You may have to move your barrel back or down. You may have a little wiggle room on your lock position.

If it looks like your barrel is close the first step if to mate your barrel breech to the back of the the inlet. You want full breech contact before you inlet the breechplug, like in the picture.



Title: Re: Trade Gun Project
Post by: Parnell on July 15, 2018, 03:52:30 pm
Thanks Mike and Eric.  Glad to see you guys post.  I値l update when I progress.
Title: Re: Trade Gun Project
Post by: Eric Krewson on July 16, 2018, 06:14:40 am
I don't see a touch hole liner in your parts, I recommend a white lightning liner from Jim Chambers, it is better than the TOW liner by the same name which is a bit different.

Here is a picture of a correct location for the liner in relation to the breechplug and barrel flat as well as the final location after the lock is in place, I shaded out the pan location with a sharpie. I am using a punch to put guide my drill bit into just the right location for the liner. I drill a small hole first and use it as a guide for the tap sized hole.



Title: Re: Trade Gun Project
Post by: Parnell on July 16, 2018, 06:34:20 am
I was thinking about that Eric.  I値l take that advice.  I have tapped a couple things over the years...am I correct in thinking I壇 be tapping the barrel myself?
Title: Re: Trade Gun Project
Post by: Eric Krewson on July 16, 2018, 01:17:36 pm
I notched the breechplug on my first rifle because I drilled for the liner a little far back. One does compromise the breech plug to breech face seal when you notch the plug. I spent hours on my the rest of my guns getting a perfect breechplug seal and properly indexed to align the flats, not one of my better skills. All my guns go off very quickly.

If your barrel is a Colerain I can just about guarantee the breech plug isn't properly fitted to the breech even though it has an index mark that says it is. I have breeched two colerain barrels and one needed a little work and the other was two flats off the breech.

You will have to drill and tap for your liner and counter sink the hole slightly on the outside. Chambers liners are an oddball thread, you can buy the installation kit consisting of a correct drill bit and tap or you can buy the same stuff off ebay for 1/3 the cost.  After you get the liner in you will have to file off all the metal flashing and any of the liner that protrudes into the barrel. On a thick barrel the liner won't to into the bore. I see how much protrudes, remove the liner and grind off a little on the end to keep it flush with the bore. I do this before I cut off the bulb on the outside end of the liner and file it flush with the barrel flat.

Here is a finished liner installation, it should fit completely flush with the barrel flat.

 

Title: Re: Trade Gun Project
Post by: Parnell on July 28, 2018, 04:53:12 pm
I致e been putting some time in.  The barrel is getting close to being flush with the inlet back.  A bit more work.  I知 going slowly.  I also installed the breach plug to a tight fit.  You can see the tang inletting is already done on the stock.  The tang itself is much longer, so I値l have to cut and file it into place. 
Title: Re: Trade Gun Project
Post by: Parnell on July 28, 2018, 04:57:31 pm
Another picture...
Title: Re: Trade Gun Project
Post by: Eric Krewson on July 29, 2018, 03:59:55 am
NO, NO, don't file the tang to fit the inlet. The inlet is too small and the tang should be full length and width.

Before you go further, zip over to Track of The Wolf's site and buy their full sized plans for a trade gun. These plans are very good on pointing out how stuff should be shaped. The best $8 you ever spend if you are unsure about a build.

https://www.trackofthewolf.com/Categories/PartDetail.aspx/327/1/PLAN-NW

Here is my trade gun tang, this is an old Gustomsky kit from the 70s that a dying friend gave me. The tang is correct.

Title: Re: Trade Gun Project
Post by: Parnell on July 29, 2018, 05:48:22 am
Hmm, ok.  The plans are a good idea.  I値l do that.  Looking at the examples of historical trade guns there appears to be a field a variance in design.  From what I read in the text, they were known for this.  Here are some image examples, also, the tang I have.  Seeing that, what are your thoughts Eric?
Title: Re: Trade Gun Project
Post by: Parnell on July 29, 2018, 05:49:07 am
And...
Title: Re: Trade Gun Project
Post by: Eric Krewson on July 29, 2018, 06:58:22 am
You are right about the variance in tang shapes, but I would go with one that is visually appealing. The short stubby ones don't look very good and have the bolt coming in from the top. Mine is a Hudson Bay type and the tang bolt comes in from the bottom.

Did you do the carving around the tang or was it part of the precarve?

Your tang is much too long, you are right you need to trim it a bit.

Go over to the American Longrifle site, post a picture of your inlet and tang in the gun building section and ask what would be appropriate for your gun. These guys know their stuff, if you ask for pictures of their trade rifles tangs they will be glad to help you out.

I will ask the question for you if you like.
Title: Re: Trade Gun Project
Post by: Parnell on July 30, 2018, 03:12:59 pm
Barrel is almost flush, little more work.  Eric, Please have a look at the pencil marks.  Most tangs from historical guns are 2, which is measured.  The precarve is clearly wider on the lock side.  Any thought on that...bring it even?
Title: Re: Trade Gun Project
Post by: Eric Krewson on July 30, 2018, 06:50:35 pm
The last precarve I put together was grossly wide on the lock plate side and very skinny on the lock side, so skinny I didn't know if I had enough wood to finish the gun. I was able to even things out by making a very slender gun which was a good thing.

You should be able to even out both sides out, it is part of the process with precarves.
Title: Re: Trade Gun Project
Post by: Parnell on August 02, 2018, 05:40:44 pm
Read that a dry erase marker works as a substitute for blackening.  It did the job much more easily and comes off neatly.  The barrel is marking fully on the stock now, so, on to the tang.  I have some decisions to make with the length.  If cut for a 2 length, the current precarved design won稚 nearly provide enough space for a beaver tail carve that will look right.  So, 1 7/16 precarved design, or, extend it out to 2 and simplify the carving surrounding the tang.
Title: Re: Trade Gun Project
Post by: Parnell on September 19, 2018, 03:46:28 pm
I致e been moving forward.  Taking care to fit the barrel and breech plug right.  I removed slightly too much right under the breech but it痴 minimal and a thin shin of maple does the trick to correct it.  I was a little unsure of hammering the tang down but found an appropriate soft mallet and it came together.  My next big step will be the underlugs.  I致e been watching a fusil-de-chase buildalong on the tube that has been very helpful.  Also, just putting in time sanding the pieces clean.  Here is where it lies...
Title: Re: Trade Gun Project
Post by: chamookman on September 19, 2018, 10:53:23 pm
Lookin good ! Trade Guns are the Bomb  :OK :-M - Bob
Title: Re: Trade Gun Project
Post by: Parnell on October 25, 2018, 07:02:34 am
Got my underlugs figured out and in place, soldered them and managed to drill my holes without a problem.  Definitely went slow and measured then remeasured and then once more.  Came out fine.

Pushed the temporary pins through last evening.

I致e been following the series of YouTube videos done for a fusil build for guidance and cross referencing the Building the Pennsylvania Longrifle book.
Title: Re: Trade Gun Project
Post by: Parnell on January 14, 2019, 09:12:58 am
Haven稚 updated this in awhile, but have made progress.  Figured out lock disassembly and reassembly and saw that through inletting the lock.  Then had some work to get myself figured out for drilling and tapping the lockbolts, which happened over the weekend.  I値l admit it made me a bit nervous doing that a first time.  But, it came great so, so far so good.  I値l have to make a drilling jig for the last main bolt that will insert underneath in front of the trigger and thread upward into the tang.  Perhaps I can get that accomplished in the evening this week.  Some current pictures...
Title: Re: Trade Gun Project
Post by: JW_Halverson on January 14, 2019, 09:17:40 am
You may just have that ready in time to hunt turkeys up here with me this spring!
Title: Re: Trade Gun Project
Post by: Parnell on January 14, 2019, 12:00:44 pm
Tempting, JW!
Title: Re: Trade Gun Project
Post by: chamookman on January 14, 2019, 11:51:56 pm
Lookin' good  :-M  :OK ! Bob
Title: Re: Trade Gun Project
Post by: Hawkdancer on January 15, 2019, 08:36:14 am
JW,
Speaking of turkeys - it's about time to start planning!
Hawkdancer
Title: Re: Trade Gun Project
Post by: Parnell on January 22, 2019, 04:22:33 am
Bit of progress.  Got the butt plate in, needs just a little more tweaking.  Spent time polishing steel and got the lock together to see if all is well after the lock bolts were done.  All is well.  Be on to the trigger, and guard, then I値l be thinking about the angled tang bolt.
Title: Re: Trade Gun Project
Post by: Eric Krewson on January 22, 2019, 07:25:12 am
You probably know this but it would be good to mark your sear position on the side of your lock molding and make sure your trigger inlet lets you place the trigger bar so the trigger hits the sear about 5/16" from the pivot on the trigger plate. This should give you around a three pound trigger. Sometimes the precarve inlet requires a move for or aft and a little wood patching to achieve this. Trigger plate depth is something you sneak up on until your trigger bar is just barely touching or slightly below the sear. You don't want any slop in your trigger.

I prefer a simple pinned tigger with the plate separate as it lets you mover the trigger around and not be dependant on the plate for positioning. You install the trigger first and pin it exactly where you want it then inlet the plate to match the trigger position. With your inlet already cut your options are limited.

My setup on my fowler is a simple pinned trigger and a separate plate.

Title: Re: Trade Gun Project
Post by: Parnell on January 22, 2019, 08:19:44 am
I didn稚 know about that, but had wondered.  Thanks for the 塗eads up, Eric.
Title: Re: Trade Gun Project
Post by: Eric Krewson on January 22, 2019, 01:06:26 pm
Another thing; Sometimes you see a trigger guard set too far back and little room for your finger to get on the trigger. I looked at a lot of pictures of the way the experts placed their trigger guard and noticed they had the trigger a little less than mid point in the trigger guard bow so I put my trigger guard on my fowler in a position to achieve this configuration.

I just looked at your plans on the first page and noticed they have the trigger centered in the bow, this is wrong. The reason for the huge trigger guard bow on a trade gun is to access the trigger with gloves on(ice and snow).

Here are some original Trade Guns and the trigger placement. I would go just a tad further forward then these origins for aesthetics but certainly not centered. Look up Caywood guns and see how he has his trigger guards placed on his trade guns, I think his are perfect for looks and function.


Title: Re: Trade Gun Project
Post by: Eric Krewson on January 22, 2019, 01:24:45 pm

Here is a caywood NW fowler trigger guard position;

Title: Re: Trade Gun Project
Post by: Parnell on January 23, 2019, 02:44:08 am
Hmm, I hadn稚 realized that either in my reading!  Good bit of information, that makes sense.  I値l have a look at that tonight.  Thanks!
Title: Re: Trade Gun Project
Post by: Parnell on March 01, 2019, 03:27:15 am
Here are some updates pictures.  The trigger is set and working well, it seems.  Got the tang bolt drilled.  Made a jig for the drill press to drill the angled bolt up through the tang.  Tapping came out great and I am pleased.  Just need to sand a bit of the stock blank down to bring the bolt a touch deeper into the threads.  I値l be looking to do the touch hole this weekend, we値l see.

Sure feels good to hold the gun with the tang bolt in.  It feels very solid now.  Getting excited to do the finish work.  I致e been debating on whether or not to inlet the serpent lock plate a touch, I知 thinking I will.

Pictures...
Title: Re: Trade Gun Project
Post by: Pat B on March 01, 2019, 05:31:25 am
She's coming along nicely, Steve.  :OK
Title: Re: Trade Gun Project
Post by: JW_Halverson on March 01, 2019, 07:11:44 am
You gonna have it done in time to hunt turkeys up here this spring???

 :G
Title: Re: Trade Gun Project
Post by: Parnell on March 01, 2019, 03:23:43 pm
Thanks Pat, I'm really enjoying the project.  I don't think I'm too far off, JW.  My spring turkey season opens today and the break week is after next week...maybe I can knock it out??!  Don't want to rush through the ending, though. ???

When is turkey camp, JW?  You do it the same week every year? 
Title: Re: Trade Gun Project
Post by: JW_Halverson on March 03, 2019, 10:17:09 am
It will be any day you get here during season!
Title: Re: Trade Gun Project
Post by: Parnell on March 08, 2019, 06:24:22 am
JW, you致e got my interest, for sure.

I知 realizing I知 getting pretty close.  I carved the lock plate in for a couple hours last night.  I知 going to bring it down a little more, but this is really my first honest run of carving and low and behold a couple of things clicked in my head with feeling how to remove wood with respect to the grain.  I知 amazed at how single minded I am carving.  A lot like flintknapping that way. 

I have to do the touch hole.  Other than that...it痴 finish work.

Title: Re: Trade Gun Project
Post by: Parnell on March 08, 2019, 09:52:14 pm
More inlet
Title: Re: Trade Gun Project
Post by: Eric Krewson on March 09, 2019, 03:51:37 am
Try to avoid slab sidedness in front of you lock and sideplate panels. There shouldn't be any flat wood in your forestock sides.
Title: Re: Trade Gun Project
Post by: Parnell on March 09, 2019, 09:15:03 am
Hmmm, ok, I値l work on that Eric.
Title: Re: Trade Gun Project
Post by: Eric Krewson on March 09, 2019, 11:14:37 am
This is a fowler but it is the same on a trade gun, actually every flintlock is quite similar in shape.



Title: Re: Trade Gun Project
Post by: Eric Krewson on March 09, 2019, 11:30:44 am
More pictures;

This is my trade gun, I didn't make it but it is close to right in the forearm.

Title: Re: Trade Gun Project
Post by: mullet on March 10, 2019, 02:09:36 pm
Looking good, Steve. I've got my Smooth bore dialed in and the season opens here next Saturday.
Title: Re: Trade Gun Project
Post by: Parnell on March 18, 2019, 03:32:35 am
I spent a few hours sanding the stock and cleaned up the cross-section profile so that it is much rounded and less 都lab sided.  Good advice Eric.  I still have more sanding to do.  The butt plate is fully secured now and cleaning up nicely.

The white lightning touch hole went in yesterday.  Gotta admit, it made me a little nervy doing that for the first time, but I went slow and all appears well.

Construction wise, I think only soldering the front sight is left to do.  Wish I could test fire it at my place this week.  I値l do that this weekend.  It gives me more time to sand and do some experimenting with stain.  I知 going to play with aqua fortis and iron oxide to see what I come up with.
Title: Re: Trade Gun Project
Post by: JW_Halverson on March 19, 2019, 04:58:09 am
Just don't sand past 220 grit!  Sanding with anything finer than that and the wood won't take the stain very well.  I learned that one the hard way.
Title: Re: Trade Gun Project
Post by: Parnell on March 19, 2019, 06:24:20 am
Good to know JW.
Title: Re: Trade Gun Project
Post by: Eric Krewson on March 20, 2019, 02:38:53 am
Well, I sand to 400, wisker 3 or 4 times and take off the whiskers with a scotch bright pad or 000 steel wool, my stocks are almost shiney when I get them ready for stain.

I haven't uses any stain but aquafortis, it soaks up just fine in my stock wood.

On metal I am going to brown I don't go past 220 and get a better brown that way.



Title: Re: Trade Gun Project
Post by: Parnell on April 29, 2019, 04:56:33 am
Got it together over the weekend.  I知 pleased with the turnout and am looking forward to getting it into the field this summer for hogs.

Thanks for the help on questions guys.  I learned a lot!  I値l be working on a rifle in time, but plan on getting a bag together for this gun and wrapping up a couple outstanding bow projects first.

Cheers guys.
Title: Re: Trade Gun Project
Post by: Parnell on April 29, 2019, 04:57:13 am
Two more...
Title: Re: Trade Gun Project
Post by: Pat B on April 29, 2019, 06:16:00 am
Nice job, Steve. Let us know how it shoots.
 Hoping to see you and Angie at the Classic.
Title: Re: Trade Gun Project
Post by: Eric Krewson on April 30, 2019, 02:35:09 am
I like it, a range report should be next.
Title: Re: Trade Gun Project
Post by: Parnell on April 30, 2019, 03:34:07 am
Thanks Pat, many thanks Eric.  Eric, I'm looking to take it out to the fields on Saturday.  I'll keep you posted.

Pat, we won't be making it this year.  We are doing fine just moving through our responsibilities these days.  I'll be missing the comradery.
Wishing all of you the best and will be thinking of you guys.