Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: Taxus brevifolia on September 16, 2018, 07:17:16 pm
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It's lurking there, like a big zit
I guess I'll soak it with super glue and leave it a little stiff there. Unless maybe you guys have other suggestion?
Incense cedar, to be backed with elk sinew
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Is that knot on the back? Jawge
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Just what I was gonna ask, George.
If it is on the back take it down to the same ring as the back but be careful not to violate that back ring at the knot.. If on the belly, don't worry about it.
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It's on the belly. The one picture shows it's face on the back
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(I love you guys)
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"Don't worry about it) as in shave down like it wasn't there?
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I wouldn't touch that wood for a bow if my life depended on it, BUT, if I did? I would drill that out clean and make the bow wider at that point to compensate. Sinew around the drilled hole, not over it.
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I wouldn't touch that wood for a bow if my life depended on it, BUT, if I did? I would drill that out clean and make the bow wider at that point to compensate. Sinew around the drilled hole, not over it.
+1
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Wow that's a little bit dramatic. Not even if your life depended on it? Haha.
I've seen quite a few good bowyers who make good bows out of real character wood, and this one doesn't really qualify as character wood. One tiny knot in the entire stave and it falls at midlimb centerline, the widest part of the bow. I think it's a reasonable choice for the first one. That is, if I don't ruin it first. It's not my first attempt. I've ruined several already. Therefore I'm not using my best staves yet.
By all indications, this one I'm actually going to finish. If it continues to go as well as I expect, I'll use a better stave on the next one. If not, I'll keep using black sheep until I get one right.
Besides, I plan to use the knot in the final artwork.
Now I am very intrigued by your suggestion to sinew around but not over the hole. I never would have thought of that. I'd greatly appreciate your insights on this, anything you can think of about it and what's going on with it mechanically, anything at all
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IMO.
Clean out that black ring round the knot as it has no strength and will collapse causing a inch there. Cleaning it out may also loosen the knot or expose a cavity. Fill any gap with wood dust epoxy mix, if the knot comes right out, glue in a plug.
The knot itself probably has as much strength as the parent wood, it's the black manky stuff or any cavities that will cause problems.
Better safe than sorry.
Del
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Thanks very much D
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Wow that's a little bit dramatic. Not even if your life depended on it? Haha.
I've seen quite a few good bowyers who make good bows out of real character wood, and this one doesn't really qualify as character wood. One tiny knot in the entire stave and it falls at midlimb centerline, the widest part of the bow. I think it's a reasonable choice for the first one. That is, if I don't ruin it first. It's not my first attempt. I've ruined several already. Therefore I'm not using my best staves yet.
No drama, I would rather have a throwing stick. Its not that knot or character wood that bothers me, its the wood species itself. ERC, in my opinion, is totally worthless for bow wood. The reason I mentioned going around the knot hole and not over it is because sinew not fully secured/glued down can and will peel up eventually.
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Depends on what your purpose is. Is it the best wood, or even great/good wood? It's debatable but probably not. You probably won't make a world record maker or have it classified as an elite status bow. Can it be a bow? Yes, you could even make a bow out of pine or willow if you wanted to (which I consider some of the worst wood). It wouldn't be "good" compared to woods of better quality, but it can be "good" if you just want something to target shoot with. It may even be "good" enough to hunt and kill with, depending on the type of game you're after. Discrediting it all together as not worth any effort, even if your life depended on it, is in a way a little dramatic. If you were starving and you wanted a bow to hunt a turkey, even a pine/willow bow would be good enough.
If you pride yourself in only the "best" bows, then wasting your time un sub-optimal wood isn't worth it. Some don't want to be associated with something made of "poor" quality wood. Personally, I don't really care what material I use, but at the same time, I have to adjust my expectations. Speaking from personal experiance, I have tried to get more from materials than what they can physically give me, and as a result I have broken more bows than I should have. I have wasted a lot of time where I would have been better off using "better" material I was saving for later. What it comes down to is if you are okay using mediocre wood, you have to be okay getting mediocre bows.
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Wow that's a little bit dramatic. Not even if your life depended on it? Haha.
I've seen quite a few good bowyers who make good bows out of real character wood, and this one doesn't really qualify as character wood. One tiny knot in the entire stave and it falls at midlimb centerline, the widest part of the bow. I think it's a reasonable choice for the first one. That is, if I don't ruin it first. It's not my first attempt. I've ruined several already. Therefore I'm not using my best staves yet.
No drama, I would rather have a throwing stick. Its not that knot or character wood that bothers me, its the wood species itself. ERC, in my opinion, is totally worthless for bow wood. The reason I mentioned going around the knot hole and not over it is because sinew not fully secured/glued down can and will peel up eventually.
Fortunately it's not ERC although I would consign this particular stave to fire-board service.
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Ya it's incense cedar. I have it on good authority that it is a reasonably good choice for bow wood if you have a suitable design and back it.
Yes btw, that was quite a dramatic thing you said, and denying the drama actually increases it a little.
Me, I'm going to be happy to finally complete a bow, I don't care or expect it to win any prizes. It's a stepping stone on my path to learn the making of good bows.
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Fortunately it's not ERC although I would consign this particular stave to fire-board service.
Why is that, because of the knot?
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Yeah, I don't use wood with any knots.
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I understand. I do have some nice knot-free staves, but as I said I'm going to produce at least one well tillered bow before I risk a good stave. They're too hard to find, let alone the work involved in the harvest
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Taxus,
It's 530 EST. I'm going hunting. I typed a long version and lost it. This is the condensed version. :)
I don't spend too much time typing as I find people don't read long posts.
I'm not sure you'll get a bow from that stave. I'm not sure I would and I've made 2-300 bows some with several knots over close to 30 years of bowyering. A large knot that takes up much of the width can be problematic. One must compensate for the knot with wood but you cannot.
Try a good straight grained board of red oak or hickory. I wish I started that way.
I chose your route and I learned a lot but it was tedious and took quite awhile to get a hunting weight shooter. I wish I had started with a board to at least get a shooter but the prevailing wisdom of the time said kiln dried wood doesn't make a bow. Ha!
If you must, tiller the stave to not bend much in relation to the rest of the limb in the knotted area.
Check my site.
http://traditionalarchery101.com/archer.html
Jawge
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Jawge, I will always read every word anyone here takes the time to post in response to my queries. I can't adequately express my gratitude for this wonderful resource and access to the country's most prolific and experienced primitive bowyers.
I have to say though, it doesn't seem like a very big knot. I left a lot of wood around it, but it's tiny. I thought it might be a benefit to have it dead center midlimb.
Maybe I need to better show it. I'll get a bit of video.
Here, I took it down with a ferrier's rasp. Left it thick though.
https://youtu.be/FPq6HPSclOM
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I don't have any idea what type of bow can be produced from the incense Cedar. The knot shown to me doesn't seem to be of huge concern. I think the original pictures made it look far more dramatic than it actually seems to be. I personally would carry on. You've got a considerable amount of effort put into this stave already. I agree with Del. Usually when I see that black ring around the knot it's a lose one. I usually just pop em out. I follow the side grain around them leaving the bow wider where the knot is. As Jawge says like water flowing around a stone in a creek. For this I like to mark grain with a pencil and then use my draw knife to follow side grain around knot. Some wood this works great and some not so much. I remove the belly wood over the knot like you did with rasp. Draw knife tends to tear out chunks. Then I use scraper to smooth belly up a bit. I find if I get good dependable grain that "flows" around the knot, I can make the entire area bend nearly as much as the rest of the limb.
I might be a bit crazy, but I like a challenge. I've been told many times in my life that I was wasting my time. I would have never started knapping, making arrows or building bows if I'd have taken it to heart. Even after I figured out how to do all that and improved my equipment and shooting ability I was still constantly told "Your wasting your time, Your never going to shoot a deer with that". Sometimes I don't listen so good. Sometimes I find out their right. All the cases above they were wrong.
I love ya Pearl. No offense here buddy. I think I understand what your saying and I'm questioning the wood type to, but I'm going to respectfully disagree and tell you sir to carry on. It's very possible that your efforts prove unsatisfactory. I don't think them a waste of time though if you learn something from them. Even if what you learn is that it was a waste of time.lol.
Bjrogg
Not sure if I picked the right picture but tried to give example of grain "flowing" around knot
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Taxus, I know you do.
So can you leave extra wood around the knot?
Jawge
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My cup runneth over
Yes I've left it fat and I'll let some the work pass through that area so it will bend less there.
When I cut the stave I could have had it knot free
But it would have been much narrower
I think this sort of wood favors broader designs
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I'll be tillering it mostly with sandpaper.
This is from that tree I thought was a juniper when I cut it last June.
Very similar, and it's a joy to work with. Dry as it is now, it shaves like wet green juniper.
Since I got a new drawknife, and built a shave horse, shaving this stave down to where it is now has me addicted to the drawknife. It's a 5" Flexcut
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Very nice. Have fun. That's what is important.
Jawge
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Thank you Jawge. Once I have this one tillered I'll be able to relax and get more started. I've ruined enough of them to be gun shy, but this will pass.
In the time I've been hanging out here at PA, which is since early last spring, in this time I haven't produced a single bow yet whilst many of you have produced multiple units. I need this!
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Thank you Jawge. Once I have this one tillered I'll be able to relax and get more started. I've ruined enough of them to be gun shy, but this will pass.
In the time I've been hanging out here at PA, which is since early last spring, in this time I haven't produced a single bow yet whilst many of you have produced multiple units. I need this!
It's the journey that sometimes teaches more than the destination.
I just spent 2 weeks making a warbow that exploded on the tiller at 120# .... not quite sure what it taught me yet ;)
Del
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Thank you Jawge. Once I have this one tillered I'll be able to relax and get more started. I've ruined enough of them to be gun shy, but this will pass.
In the time I've been hanging out here at PA, which is since early last spring, in this time I haven't produced a single bow yet whilst many of you have produced multiple units. I need this!
Sir, I know that feeling well.
If you’ve had several failed attempts without completing a shooter, and need a success, I highly recommend you get your hands on a clean hickory stave and whittle out a 64-70” bow. That would be low stress for an , in my opinion, nearly indestructible bow wood.
My first hickory bow was high stress, short, fades were all wrong and had at least one suspect hinge and It held together. I completely understand the desire to produce certain types of bows, but having a shooting bow in hand will build confidence and stoke the fire. Another positive is that having a shooter with faults allows you to closely analyze the faults without it blowing to pieces and guessing at the problem.
Just my .02˘
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Thank you Jawge. Once I have this one tillered I'll be able to relax and get more started. I've ruined enough of them to be gun shy, but this will pass.
In the time I've been hanging out here at PA, which is since early last spring, in this time I haven't produced a single bow yet whilst many of you have produced multiple units. I need this!
Sir, I know that feeling well.
If you’ve had several failed attempts without completing a shooter, and need a success, I highly recommend you get your hands on a clean hickory stave and whittle out a 64-70” bow. That would be low stress for an , in my opinion, nearly indestructible bow wood.
My first hickory bow was high stress, short, fades were all wrong and had at least one suspect hinge and It held together. I completely understand the desire to produce certain types of bows, but having a shooting bow in hand will build confidence and stoke the fire. Another positive is that having a shooter with faults allows you to closely analyze the faults without it blowing to pieces and guessing at the problem.
Just my .02˘
Yes, on top of moving twice, starting grade school, and having a 1 one year old, I too have been gun shy of late. Once life calms down a bit, I'm going to go for a simple long limbed hickory. If you need a bow to work > would hold off on the incense cedar for when you can take a loss if it happens to fail.
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I have been tempted to find a hickory stave, but since I've got plenty of yew and juniper, and a little ocean spray, I'll be sticking to these local species (Southern Oregon). The yew will be ready soon. I've also got more incense cedar, a piece perfect for cutting two limbs to be joined at the handle. I'm looking forward to that, being able to join limbs EXPONENTIALLY increases to number of viable staves to be found and harvested. It's a skill I plan to become good at.
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Progress report on the incense cedar bow.
Narrated for my fb friends who don't know much about this stuff. Please don't think I thought any of you needed any of it explained
https://youtu.be/cj8r7E7dF7U