Primitive Archer

Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: ThreeSons on November 08, 2018, 07:51:36 pm

Title: Question on early wood. Black locust
Post by: ThreeSons on November 08, 2018, 07:51:36 pm
Hey people. This is my first post. I have been really getting a lot out of searching for my questions on older posts but this time I thought I would put this one out myself.
I am working on my first BL stave and I am one growth ring away from my desired layer. As I shave away the late wood and get into the early wood I found these beautiful markings.
Sorry no photos i am having touble compressing the pic on my phone. They are black veins showing. Very cool looking. So before I took it away or worse left it and should not have I will ask you all; 1. Is this common in locust? And 2. Does one have to remove early wood? Why or why not?
Thanks in advance to all who respond.
Peter
Title: Re: Question on early wood. Black locust
Post by: Pat B on November 08, 2018, 08:24:45 pm
Around here there is a fungi that attacks the early wood making the rings delaminate. I don't know if it is what you are talking about or not.
 You don't have to remove the early ring and some leave it on while they are building the bow to protect the back late wood ring then remove before finishing it. It's pretty brittle so I wouldn't want it on the back permanently.
Title: Re: Question on early wood. Black locust
Post by: simk on November 09, 2018, 01:23:19 am
ThreeSons: Send the pics to yourself with the phone and they will be downsized automatically ...cheers
Title: Re: Question on early wood. Black locust
Post by: George Tsoukalas on November 09, 2018, 06:30:17 am
I've never  seen that. I've seen a sapwood ring about to to turn to heartwood but I've never seen black veins.
You are eventually going to a heartwood ring?
Jawge
Title: Re: Question on early wood. Black locust
Post by: ThreeSons on November 09, 2018, 08:10:28 am
Pat and George, you both may he right. I do t really know what I am looking at. The log i split the staves from was dead bit still in great co diyion especially the heart. Yes I am going for 100 heart wood George. Simk, thanks for the tip :)
So why can we not leave the crunchy stuff?
Title: Re: Question on early wood. Black locust
Post by: ThreeSons on November 09, 2018, 08:11:39 am
Okay I'll say what everyone here seems to say, the photo doesn't do the beauty justice.
Peter
Title: Re: Question on early wood. Black locust
Post by: Pat B on November 09, 2018, 08:22:17 am
Will you post a pic of the end grain? To me, it looks like you still have sapwood on the back.
Title: Re: Question on early wood. Black locust
Post by: ThreeSons on November 09, 2018, 03:41:38 pm
Pat when you say sap wood do you mean early wood or what's just below the bark? Here is the end grain. I would say I have removed 6 or 8 growth rings from the bark. The black veiny stuff will become the crunchy early wood so I am almost through the late wood and just getting into the next early wood set. Hope that helps.
Title: Re: Question on early wood. Black locust
Post by: ThreeSons on November 09, 2018, 04:00:39 pm
Here is a close up.
Title: Re: Question on early wood. Black locust
Post by: Pat B on November 09, 2018, 04:23:58 pm
The sapwood is the whiter wood right under the bark, usually 2 to 4 growth rings worth then the heartwood.The early wood is the thin, corky layer between the growth rings.
 I think I'd do a bend test to be sure the woods is sound. It looks like it is degrading to me. That end cut should be almost polished looking and it looks crumbly to me. Take a split off the bottom of the stave. It is waste wood anyway. Build a little test bow by getting to a clean ring on the back and a tapering the belly to the tips. Then see if it will take a good bend without breaking.
Title: Re: Question on early wood. Black locust
Post by: ThreeSons on November 09, 2018, 04:27:54 pm
Great idea thanks pat. I'll do that. Do you mind if I ask what area you are that this fu guys attacks the early wood. Yeah sap wood duh. Brain fart...baby brain. Hehe
Title: Re: Question on early wood. Black locust
Post by: George Tsoukalas on November 09, 2018, 07:24:03 pm
I should take notes of past bow woods and staves and such. A long time ago, I encountered some BL wood with black stuff on it. I assumed it was a fungus and grabbed another stave. But BL grows in my yard.

The black fungus I saw was was localized but I can't remember for sure.

Getting wood to bend is already daunting. I'd get another stave. Sorry.

Jawge
Title: Re: Question on early wood. Black locust
Post by: Morgan on November 09, 2018, 08:45:41 pm
If that’s degraded, that’s terrible luck. I always thought that BL sapwood would rot but heartwood wouldn’t.
Title: Re: Question on early wood. Black locust
Post by: Pat B on November 09, 2018, 09:12:25 pm
Generally it is rot resistant. I've made bows from old locust fence posts I pulled from the ground that the barbwire and staples had rusted away. The wood was still good. But the locust that grows on my property and the surrounding properties have some sort of malady that causes the early wood to deteriorate.
I live in the Southern Appalachian Mountains of North Carolina south west of Asheville. We get lots of rain here so that could have something to do with it.
Title: Re: Question on early wood. Black locust
Post by: ThreeSons on November 09, 2018, 09:39:52 pm
Very interesting. Thanks to all that helped out. George, sorry too stubborn to take that advice. I'll have to keep going, and if I break it well...I appreciate all the input. I'll keep going and let you know how it all works out.
Title: Re: Question on early wood. Black locust
Post by: Morgan on November 09, 2018, 09:42:20 pm
Very interesting. Thanks to all that helped out. George, sorry too stubborn to take that advice. I'll have to keep going, and if I break it well...I appreciate all the input. I'll keep going and let you know how it all works out.
Pretty good attitude to have when making wood bows
Title: Re: Question on early wood. Black locust
Post by: ThreeSons on November 09, 2018, 09:43:32 pm
Now what about my other question? Is there a practical reason the one NEEDS to remove the early wood when chasing a ring? Not saying I am desperate to try it just trying to better understand.
Title: Re: Question on early wood. Black locust
Post by: Morgan on November 09, 2018, 09:50:50 pm
I think pat said earlier that you could leave some on until you’re ready to finish the bow. The early wood rings are a weak stage of the wood, the late wood is strong and dense and what you want on the finished back.
Title: Re: Question on early wood. Black locust
Post by: ThreeSons on November 10, 2018, 04:30:35 am
Right so what I see happening is it will just crumble off with tension and compression forces but what is really giving the strength is the late wood underneath. No chance it blows up from that like when you violate a ring correct?
Title: Re: Question on early wood. Black locust
Post by: Pat B on November 10, 2018, 06:03:13 am
The only problem with leaving the early wood on is you don't get a good, clear picture of the back unless you do remove it.
Title: Re: Question on early wood. Black locust
Post by: George Tsoukalas on November 10, 2018, 07:22:37 am
I don't blame you, Threesons. Maybe try going deeper into the heartwood to see if it goes away? Jawge
Title: Re: Question on early wood. Black locust
Post by: M2A on November 10, 2018, 07:50:30 am
I've seen that coloration in spring wood before just like you describe and pics you shared. Always in standing dead locust or logs that have been cut and left to weather. In my experiences its in the (spring)heartwood rings close to the sap wood. I have always removed wood to get below that and have had success. I think that black is mold just like you would see in sapwood from being damp. I think you have a good chance of the late wood below being good.  Im a sucker for pretty wood but think it to be a too risky to leave that spring wood on there as a back. Your locust looks different than what I seem to find, what Pat B said in his post about doing a test piece +1

only thing I could add that has not been said....if this stave still has moisture to lose, seal the back when you get to it, with shellac. So you don't get drying checks on the back .

Mike
Title: Re: Question on early wood. Black locust
Post by: DC on November 10, 2018, 09:15:54 am
I'm looking at the end grain picture. Is that very pronounced lunar rings I'm seeing?
Title: Re: Question on early wood. Black locust
Post by: ThreeSons on November 10, 2018, 09:03:06 pm
What are lunar rings dc?
I'm quite sure that these staves are quite dry enough but yes this is something I am getting to lead about each species I collect. I have found European buckthorn and alternate leaf dogwood do the same. Thanks Mike.
And George. That will definitely be my approach. I am happy my instinct has lined up with your experience with this wood.
Thanks everyone for the help. I hope one day I can do the same for other folks.
Title: Re: Question on early wood. Black locust
Post by: ThreeSons on November 11, 2018, 08:58:44 am
I have read something about when the tree grows so fast that there are more than one ring in a growing season. Is that what a lunar ring means? If that is what is happening, is there something to do or does that mean the stave is firewood? Maybe I will make a clean cut on the end to show better the end grain. I think the rough chainsaw marks may distort the image. 
Title: Re: Question on early wood. Black locust
Post by: ThreeSons on November 11, 2018, 09:10:56 am
So here is the cleaned up end grain. Do you notice some black dots closer to the back? I think I will try to not include that section in my bow.
Title: Re: Question on early wood. Black locust
Post by: DC on November 11, 2018, 09:18:29 am
Lunar rings are just extra early growth rings I think. Now that you've cleaned up the end I don't see them. They must have been saw marks I was looking at. I don't think they affect the wood. I wonder if going down to this ring would get you past all the black stuff?
Title: Re: Question on early wood. Black locust
Post by: ThreeSons on November 11, 2018, 11:00:23 am
Ya dc that's kinda where I was thinking too.  Are there benefits to using a thi per growth ring like that at my backing? Other than a little more room for error I suppose.
Title: Re: Question on early wood. Black locust
Post by: Pat B on November 11, 2018, 11:01:09 am
Lunar rings are rings that are laid down on a monthly basis where annual rings are laid down over a years time. It tales lunar rings to make up annual rings. If you look closely at the annual ring you can see the lunar rings. In the newer pics they look like those light color dashes.
 Now that you have cleaned up the end grain it looks a lot more sound then the first end grain pic.
Title: Re: Question on early wood. Black locust
Post by: TimBo on November 11, 2018, 01:02:04 pm
Yeah, that looks like good black locust now!  I agree with the ring DC picked.  I would chase down to that one and see how it looks from there.