Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => English Warbow => Topic started by: burtonridr on November 30, 2018, 07:40:48 am
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I posted this in the arrows forum, but it was suggested I post it here because this is where all the medieval experts hangout ;D
I'm trying to figure out how they made arrows, as far as splitting, drying, shaving, nock inserts, etc. They must of had a system and fairly good hand tools to mass produce all the war arrows. I cant imagine they cut out square stock from logs, they must have been split, but how? How would you do it efficiently? I've read about making shakes and they always tend to bevel from one side to the other, would this be true with splitting a 1/2" thick 30" long "shake" to start with? Does the type of splitting blade or metal thickness help create a more parallel and consistent split? Is it better to split the shafts or shakes when wet, or season the wood first?
Sorry, lots of questions I know... I cant seem to find anything searching online, maybe I'm not using the right search terms? Any help in the right direction or answers would be greatly appreciated.
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Bottom line... no one knows.
BUT
There are well known tools used for splitting, billhook, axe, froe etc.
It's not too hard to split squarish lengths and then plane 'em round on a shooting board. Or were some made from round shoots, do you mean mass produced war arrows or those made by the archer for his own use?
Exactly how it was done and by whom isn't known. Did one bloke harvest and season the wood, another bloke split 'em? Were they worked green?
Doubtless there will be some armchair experts who will know exactly how it was done and doubtless even know the blokes names ;)
Del
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Come on Del... I've got to know your beef, but I don't agree with you that there is any stubborn "know it all" guys around. What i have found in archery circles that there are quite down to earth guys who experiment and know their stuff, but still are open for discussion. Lets keep it that way and don't bring ever lasting arguments wherever we go.
I personally do all my arrows by splitting with axe (worlds best, Finnish one ;)), then drying, sawing to square 1"x 1" and hand planing them to ready shafts. For obvious reasons can't think of a much better way to do it. Aspen planes easily, so does pine and other softwoods. They also split really cleanly. We in Finland have this tradition of making baskets out of fresh spruce. See here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0LFTC1WpNNM (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0LFTC1WpNNM)
You can see that at least with spruce you can do really extremely efficient and accurate splitting.
If you look at the practice purely by interest in quality and speed, making arrows one part on a time, the process will be faster. Someone harvests, someone splits, someone planes etc. We have a hyper efficient industry all around us to remind what is the most fastest way to produce items.
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@JNystrom
I did add a " ;)" I just get a bit jaded sometimes.
The guys on here are great... it's really the "how did they do it in medieval times" questions that irritate a bit.
Maybe I'm just a grumpy pedant, but we just don't know and I've seen so many bad experimental archaeology programs on TV it drives me nuts.
I'll go and sit on the naughty step.... :(
Baaaad kitty
Del :-[
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Ha! I didn't realize that question would strike a nerve with anyone lol ;D
I find it interesting though that we have so much more information about native American and archery from other cultures, some of which had no written records. But very little from medieval times.
The whole question in my head spawned from coming across the "rose mary" (mary rose?) information about the hundreds of arrows in the archaeological find. I saw a figure that they would have thousands of arrows for a single battle, and I thought "holy crap, how did they manufacture so many good quality arrows"? I just figured if anyone knew, or even had a clue, it would be someone here. Its mostly to satisfy my curiosity, but also because they made good arrows and it would be neat to learn about what there methods were.
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JN, thanks for the info and that video is pretty cool, he can really split those really thin!
I might have a chance to cut up a douglas fir this weekend and try splitting out a bundle of shafts.
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Regarding the Mary Rose and England's preparation for the medieval wars with France.
There is good documentary evidence of how supplies were provided from across the land. The feudal system had a chain of command from king, via various nobles down eventually to the lord of the manor and his villagers.
In a similar way to how the taxes were collected each village would be expected to produce say 10 barrels of arrow heads or so many sheaves of arrows, strings, bows etc according to the resources of that village.
Robert Hardy's book "Longbow A social and military history" (ISBN 1 85260 412 3 ) details this citing the relevant sources. It's a thoroughly good read.
" in 1360, in the two months of May and June, roughly 10,000 bows and half a million arrows were received at the Tower of London alone."
Another passage mentions 400 gross of bowstrings :o
Del
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JN, thanks for the info and that video is pretty cool, he can really split those really thin!
it would be interesting to see how he got those slats so thin. ash is used for baskets in North America, but a green log is pounded with a mallet until the growth ring can be peeled from the log. never tried it with a conifer
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This is good stuff ! I wonder is there anything written on the possibility of people retrieving arrows after a battle? Seems like that would have been a business in its self thanks jeffw
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I believe the difference in info available on Native American vs English is that there are still many native Americans today practicing an unbroken tradition of passing on knowledge and skills. The world advanced as did most of the people but a great many never strayed from their traditions and passed them on.
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JN, thanks for the info and that video is pretty cool, he can really split those really thin!
it would be interesting to see how he got those slats so thin. ash is used for baskets in North America, but a green log is pounded with a mallet until the growth ring can be peeled from the log. never tried it with a conifer
These baskets are made fresh, contrary to arrow splitting. It might still be worth of a try, you can allways straighten the shafts if they dry all wonky.
Trick with the splitting is, allways split equal parts. Use a knife and start the split from exactly middle. You want the slight bending happening in the split to be equal, this will prevent the split from wandering off to one side.
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Come on Del... I've got to know your beef, but I don't agree with you that there is any stubborn "know it all" guys around. What i have found in archery circles that there are quite down to earth guys who experiment and know their stuff, but still are open for discussion.
Oh, my sweet summer child....
You are pretty new here and apparently haven't read too far back in the archives, yet. *sigh* Fun times! LOL!
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In my opinion you do what you have to do, to get the results.
I've spent a lot of time in the Mary Rose storerooms while working on various research projects, and have had the opportunity to examine a large number of the shafts there. The ones that are in very bad condition and didn't preserve well are the most interesting, as the grain structure and tool marks become immediately apparent. What I realised quickly was that there is no one way of doing them. Some shafts were simply coppiced saplings and shoots that fitted the dimension specs, others were (for lack of a better phrase) "hacked" from split timber, with heavy tool marks and mistakes (just like some of the bows) and others were beautiful, carefully made and finished. Some had the slots for the cow horn inserts sawn, some were split with a blade. Some were bound neatly, some were shockingly disorganised. Some had the fletching compound applied first, some had no compound and some even had no binding or nock inserts.
The bows follow the same pattern, with many looking like your average £100 eBay job from a beginner, right up to the most astonishingly beautiful and lovingly crafted tools. I guess when you've got hundreds of bows and thousands of arrows to make quickly for a campaign you just have to get on with it. Today we're obsessed with perfect bow tillers, perfect finishes, perfect arrow shafts and straight fletchings, but it certainly seems from that one collection that back then they were focused on simply getting the job done.
The same can be seen with medieval arrowheads - some were beautiful, some were horrendous.
Personally, when I make my replicas of the MR arrows I use split timber which is then taken down with a small wooden block plane with a flat blade to the correct taper and cross section. It's a very quick process after some practice and I've done over 50 in one day before without too much trouble. Once you get into a rhythm it just flows. This method has given me results that have been placed alongside the originals and look identical, right down to the tiny tool marks from the blade digging in and the way the tapers are formed (the tapered MR shafts aren't a straight taper from head to nock).
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I am sure it was a comfort to the Frenchmen to be shot with one of the better made arrows!
Next time you are playing with those original arrows, snap some pics. I'd love to see some of those.
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I've got albums and albums of photos, but unfortunately I'm not allowed to share them! There's a bit of a trend in the UK at the moment for museums to only allow photos taken to be for personal use, and quite often many forms need filling in even for that! Some museums are very accommodating but it's a short list
The Mary Rose in particular is incredibly difficult to gain access to at the moment - it's not their fault in the slightest, as a few people have abused the access granted to them and published all sorts of images and details they shouldn't have, but a few years ago anybody could book up and fiddle about with the bows but that's all been shut down now.
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I've often wondered about how many of these battles there were? We hear about the big ones but I don't think it would be possible to have them to often. A country couldn't afford it. Maybe one every ten years or so? Or would they go lifetimes without a battle at all? Would they have to refletch the arrows every ten years or so. It would be shame to show up at a battle with rotten moth eaten arrows.
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There were at least nine "important" battles during the hundred years war, and plenty more smaller, less crucial skirmishes, revolts and naval battles. Most of these would involve archery.
There is no real evidence of arrows being reused. They were almost certainly single-use - in fact it's common belief that arrows made for immediate use were very simple, and very likely to survive only a couple of shots - no fletch binding, no nock inserts etc. Arrows made for storage (such as the MR arrows) would have had binding and better glues, simply to keep them in one piece during storage and transport.
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Thanks for all the replies, this is really interesting stuff! It does seem likely that most are shoot shafts from the sound of it.
WillS, when you are making arrows by splitting, what are you using for wood? Cut your self or store bought? Split dry or wet? Can you provide some more detail on how you are creating the shafts in a quick efficient way?
BTW, I tried splitting shafts from a mtn alder and douglas fir last weekend. I had real trouble controlling the split and had runoff issues. Part of the issue was due to knots, finding a knot free section is tough. In the end I didnt end up with anything usable. For now it looks like red dogwood shafts are my best bet.
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BTW, I tried splitting shafts from a mtn alder and douglas fir last weekend. I had real trouble controlling the split and had runoff issues. Part of the issue was due to knots, finding a knot free section is tough. In the end I didnt end up with anything usable.
When it comes to splitting, those knots will getcha every time. You have to pick your battles carefully and saw out the sections where the grain is pretty well linear straight. I suspect both woods would split easier and cleaner when good and dry, too.
Good luck and post some photos of your work while you are at it.
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"There is no real evidence of arrows being reused"
It is hard to imagine any physical evidence that could show/prove it.
There is, I believe, anecdotal evidence for arrows being reused in battle.
Accounts of the battle of Towton suggest that one side were shooting into a strong headwind/blizzard. The opposing force were said to pick up the arrows that fell short and return them to deadly effect.
Also, can anyone suggest a reason why you wouldn't reuse arrows that were lying at your feet, when your own supply was limited?...
Me Sir me Sir! I know... sea battles... they couldn't retrieve arrows that fell in the sea! >:D ::) ;D :o
Del
Cut to scene at Towton.
"Hell's teeth Jim I'm running short of arrows!"
"Pick some of those up and use them!"
"Damn you Jim, I'm not going to shoot filthy Lancastrian arrows!"
(Jim sighs and rolls his eyes)
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Thanks for all the replies, this is really interesting stuff! It does seem likely that most are shoot shafts from the sound of it.
WillS, when you are making arrows by splitting, what are you using for wood? Cut your self or store bought? Split dry or wet? Can you provide some more detail on how you are creating the shafts in a quick efficient way?
From what I've seen, I would suggest the opposite. Some were certainly shoots, but the majority that I'm familiar with were split from timber.
For mine, I aim to be as historically correct as possible so the timber that I'm using will be alder, linden and mainly aspen - not "poplar" as this is now the common name for tulipwood or "yellow poplar" but true aspen or Populus tremula. I get most of my aspen from contacts in Scandinavia, and occasionally from within the UK. When it's available I also use black poplar or P. nigra but as it's so endangered and rare I don't get the chance to use it often. That said, it's almost identical to P. tremula so makes very little difference except to the real purists!
If I'm using readily available English timber such as the alder and linden I will harvest it myself, taking straight lengths of trunk or bough wood, and splitting numerous times once seasoned until the blanks are the correct size. If the timber is aspen or other less accessible woods I'll get them shipped to me in crates as square blanks.
The corners of the blanks are then planed off using the block plane and "chuting board" until a many-sided cylinder is formed. At this stage the tapers are established according to individual shaft weight and rough spine. If I'm making exact copies of specific arrows I'll select shaft blanks that seem most likely to finish at the weight of the originals and then copy the profile of the arrow I'm replicating. Once the shafts are almost circular they are sanded either with modern sandpaper or two small blocks of sandstone with a groove filed through the middle.
If you're struggling to split accurately, it may be worth doing it in a similar way to splitting bowstaves from a log that you think might twist or warp - set a primary split line using a sharp axe that follows the line you want, but doesn't go deeper than about 1/2" into the log, on both sides. Then start at one end holding the axe vertically between the two shallow split lines and begin opening it up. The split will follow your primary guidelines instead of running off to the side.
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Kindly refresh my memory on construction of a "chuting" board. I know it is fairly simple, requiring a couple boards and a bit of patience, but,- the mind goes first, I don't remember what goes second >:D. Thanks! Both a fun and informative thread!
I just noticed there is no little arrow maker emoji!
Hawkdancer
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Just a plank of wood! You can get fancy with V grooves, or setting a second strip down to give you a right angle to plane against, but a simple plank does the job fine. You only need something to support the blank as you work on it.
I've added a couple of marks to mine for 13mm and 8mm so I can check the sizes of shoulders and nocks as I work, and some marks to show me where to split for nock inserts and where to mark for applying the fletching compound but other than that, it's just a plank of wood.
I could sell you one, if you like? ;D
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Real genuine wood planks, squared and all the neat stuff? >:D. Might work a trade, sell and buy seem to be verboten here! Be glad to make you a trivet to rest your sharp tools on while you work, or your coffee cup to keep it off the cold bench top! :)
Hawkdancer
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Thanks for all the replies, this is really interesting stuff! It does seem likely that most are shoot shafts from the sound of it.
From what I've seen, I would suggest the opposite. Some were certainly shoots, but the majority that I'm familiar with were split from timber.
Oh ok, I just saw somewhere that a big majority of the shafts were tapered, so I just assumed they were shoot shafts. Interesting that they even took the time to taper the shafts.
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I've added a couple of marks to mine for 13mm and 8mm so I can check the sizes of shoulders and nocks as I work, and some marks to show me where to split for nock inserts and where to mark for applying the fletching compound but other than that, it's just a plank of wood.
I could sell you one, if you like? ;D
Dang good idea! I need to put some marks on one of my arrow making boards. I'm always grabbing a previous arrow to use as a template for where to place fletchings, how deep to make the knock, etc. sheesh so simple and genius! thanks for the idea :)
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Cut to scene at Towton.
"Hell's teeth Jim I'm running short of arrows!"
"Pick some of those up and use them!"
"Damn you Jim, I'm not going to shoot filthy Lancastrian arrows!"
(Jim sighs and rolls his eyes)
Lol
When it comes to splitting, those knots will getcha every time. You have to pick your battles carefully and saw out the sections where the grain is pretty well linear straight. I suspect both woods would split easier and cleaner when good and dry, too.
Good luck and post some photos of your work while you are at it.
I will give it a go again this weekend, there is an old Doug fir stump that might work perfect to wedge split the side out of.... Maybe... I'll snap some photos to post.
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I dare you to photodocument it and share. I double dog dare you!
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@Will Sherman
First time I hear about using alder, do you have some pictures of your alder arrows, how does it behave in contrast with aspen and poplar?
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I will give it a go again this weekend, there is an old Doug fir stump that might work perfect to wedge split the side out of.... Maybe... I'll snap some photos to post.
Doug Fir stumps usually flare quite a bit. You might have a tough time splitting a straight piece.
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@Will Sherman
First time I hear about using alder, do you have some pictures of your alder arrows, how does it behave in contrast with aspen and poplar?
Alder was likely a very popular shaft material as it behaves just like any other good shaft material - light and strong. Many of the MR arrows were made of alder (I've forgotten how many) and the ones that I've looked at that were confirmed to be alder are impossible to tell apart from other woods - as you can see from these pics!
These are alder.
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4900/32376126848_bbf1d86b86_b.jpg)
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4892/46248479141_4acfe36e7f_b.jpg)
(https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1937/45524635254_7c9e749b79_b.jpg)
These are willow (again, a brilliant arrow shaft material and also found on the MR)
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4852/32376126898_311296fe73_b.jpg)
(https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1902/44431289760_81123ef4f9_b.jpg)
These are Pop. nigra or Black Poplar which is essentially aspen.
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4826/46197734712_98ac13f0d4_b.jpg)
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4909/45524696844_3752cb106b_b.jpg)
And these are linden or lime.
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4892/46197734692_6054fe1f73_b.jpg)
As you can see, a white arrow shaft is a white arrow shaft! At 1/2" diameter they all behave the same really - you notice differences when you work them, especially when you're splitting the ends with a blade to fit the horn insert as some species have very straight grain and some don't (or simply don't like to follow it!) but unless you're up close you just wouldn't know. Willow is slightly softer, which I assume is why the Mary Rose willow shafts were generally larger than all the others.
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As you can see, a white arrow shaft is a white arrow shaft!
yes, and the alder we have around here, splits fairly nice.
nice pics there Will, I always enjoy viewing your arrows.
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Will,
Nice arrows! Is the green a paint/stain, or some kind of wrap? Thanks,
Hawkdancer
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The green is the fletching glue. It's a mixture of beeswax, hard kidney fat and copper verdigris. The shafts are coated in the mixture, then when it cools the feathers are bound into it using silk and then the mixture is reheated to let it flow over the bindings, securing everything in place.
It's how the majority of the MR arrows were made, as well as the Westminster Abbey arrow and probably 90% of all military arrows dating back as far as the 1100s. Before then the glue was either birch tar or pine pitch, applied in the same way.
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Beeswax and pine pitch, I got, copper verdigris is an unknown to me! Different agents for different colors? Also the silk wrap is worked down through the fletch, or through from the side with a fine needle, looks like about a 1/4" or 6 mm spacing! My precision skills are a bit wonky - it's hard to find left handed needles! (lol) (lol). As soon as I get the Christmas stuff done, I have to make some arrows for my landowner.
Hawkdancer
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Well I will definitely try making some warbow arrows from alder as it is very prevalent here around my house. Great looking arrows btw!
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Copper verdigris is copper sulphate (I think) It's an anti fungal, anti some other stuff. It was a preservative to keep bugs and stuff from the feathers while they waited for a war. :D
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Copper acetate ;)
We're not actually sure why they used it - there's no documentation to suggest it was a preventative against rot/insects but it does work as one. It's my personal belief that it was actually a byproduct of mixing the glue in a copper pot, but who knows. The artwork from the medieval period that does show verdigris on arrows shows a vast range of colour intensity, with some appearing bright green and some being very faint. Certainly the arrows that I've examined show virtually no signs of green colouration, which is why I've developed the mixture seen in my first photo, the yellowish glue. It's an identical match in colour and texture to a number of MR originals and contains only trace amounts of copper.
The wooden cones of the arrows that would have been inside the heads show a similar amount of copper on the analysis reports, and there's no point deliberately putting copper into the fish glue for those, so again it probably came from the glue pot itself.
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Is it easy and inexpensive to make this kind of fletching glue? Maybe the yellowish is more accurate historically, but green looks absolutely amazing but I am not sure does it make finding arrows harder if they land in some bush. :D
Btw, where do you get feathers? Searched on ebay but everything seems too soft and bad in quality. Last month I got wild geese feathers and they were absolutely awful, much shorter than advertised and way too soft. But I got practice working with feathers and gluing them, no matter how unusable arrows were.
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It's easy, but you have to be prepared to adapt as you go because natural ingredients are always different. Once you've done it a few times you know what to look for.
I always use wild goose or swan feathers. There's no point buying them as water birds drop their feathers every season so just pick them up.
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For mine, I aim to be as historically correct as possible so the timber that I'm using will be alder, linden and mainly aspen - not "poplar" as this is now the common name for tulipwood or "yellow poplar" but true aspen or Populus tremula.
Why they used soft woods? Had soft woods some kind of advantage over hard woods (oak, ash, beech, etc.) as war arrow material? Or, was the reason that hard woods were reserved for other purposes?
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I always use wild goose or swan feathers. There's no point buying them as water birds drop their feathers every season so just pick them up.
Yeah, but there are no wild geese here and swans come in groups of 3 maybe at most. ;)