Primitive Archer

Main Discussion Area => Flintknapping => Topic started by: Outbackbob48 on December 01, 2018, 04:14:43 pm

Title: Flutes
Post by: Outbackbob48 on December 01, 2018, 04:14:43 pm
Lets see some of your fluted points and fluting discussion, Here is one that I successfully got a nice flute on each side, One side went 1/2 way and other went just past 1/2 :KN . Had hoped for a little better picture :( Bob
Title: Re: Flutes
Post by: bjrogg on December 01, 2018, 06:22:28 pm
Nice Outback, I'm thinking all mine are in two pieces.lol
Bjrogg
Title: Re: Flutes
Post by: Outbackbob48 on December 01, 2018, 06:28:54 pm
Nice Outback, I'm thinking all mine are in two pieces.lol
Bjrogg
Bj, just like the rest of flinknapping a long learning curve , I got a whole bunch of broken fluting attempts. I did learn that your preform must be almost perfect for nice long flutes. Bob
Title: Re: Flutes
Post by: Trapper Rob on December 01, 2018, 06:54:36 pm
Nice Bob I'm like BJ end up with 2 pieces.
Title: Re: Flutes
Post by: JEB on December 01, 2018, 08:09:48 pm
Good job Bob. Going to try that one day.
Title: Re: Flutes
Post by: Tower on December 03, 2018, 05:33:31 pm
That’s why I make the Plainview point  :KN
Title: Re: Flutes
Post by: Outbackbob48 on December 03, 2018, 06:41:24 pm
Hi Don, nice to see ya on here again.  If you flute those thin points of yours would be a nice long hole thru the middle :o Bob
Title: Re: Flutes
Post by: Hawkdancer on December 03, 2018, 09:25:40 pm
Nice points!  I ain't got that far yet!
Hawkdancer
Title: Re: Flutes
Post by: 1442 on December 03, 2018, 11:34:17 pm
I got introduced to a solberger jig here not too long ago and got addicted to fluting with it for a while.
Was getting good results until I went to a knap in with my new jig and broke five attempts.
Came home and took my time and just relaxed while making this point and took pics of the process.
I had thought about the breaks at the knap in and kinda figgered what I did wrong, and tried to make sure I didn't do any of that.
A piece of raw central texas pedernale flavored rock.
Title: Re: Flutes
Post by: 1442 on December 03, 2018, 11:35:38 pm
I took lots of pics and tried to capture set up details
Title: Re: Flutes
Post by: 1442 on December 03, 2018, 11:42:12 pm
first flute went perfect
The last pic in this post shows the tip profile where I have beveled slightly to the side I'm fluting. I think that's important to define exactly where the flute terminates and helps keep it on that side of the point.
 
Title: Re: Flutes
Post by: 1442 on December 03, 2018, 11:51:23 pm
second flute stopped a little short but I'm real happy with it.
the thing about these points is that you can chip the tip back to the short flute and make it look like they both went all the way.
When they do both go all the way out the tip like the first flute on this one did it makes an awesome tip profile that feathers out to almost nothing with the ridges down each edge feathering down too looks just deadly efficient for poking large thick skinned critters.
Title: Re: Flutes
Post by: Outbackbob48 on December 04, 2018, 06:59:28 am
1442, thanks for the great pics  of your fluting . I have a couple of quick questions. I also am using a Solberg jig to flute. Do you always place your point that deep into arms, I always place my point even with the top of arms as in more support? Second my jig doesn't seem to have the pressure flaker as parell to point as yours , it has noticeable angle to the side of the flute, often wondered if this will cause shorter flutes? Nice pics of profile of as I said perfect preforms no dips tip to base and nice straight median ridge, Thanks again for the great pics. Bob
Title: Re: Flutes
Post by: 1442 on December 04, 2018, 11:36:11 pm
I don't always set my point so deep in the arms but these arms are made of hardwood and are really rigid and I'm not liking them as much as the first set of arms I had built out of thin pine so in an effort to compensate  im setting it deeper until I rebuild my arms back like they was.
I've had several points fail right at the bottom of these arms I think due to most of the support being right there and the energy from the flute will spread out and go to the support instead of towards the tip.
I think if most of the support is near the platform then the energy gets past that as the flake detachment spreads out to maximum width and depth then travels down the point towards where the tip is supported.
From what I can tell the angle of applied force to the axis of the point definitely effects flute length and will cause the platform to fail prematurely if the bit is pulling outwards too much as the pressure is building on the platform.
measuring from the bit to the platform face then from the bit to the tip contact point I like the tip to be 1/4" more max. less on shorter points. I'm experimenting with less pull out measurement on the second flute because it has a habit of releasing before im ready and not going as far as the first flute. I think pull angle more parelell with the point would allow more pressure to build before release and direct it more toward the tip after release
I am mostly setting up heavy ground platforms and I like to be able to build up enough pressure that I think something is fixin to bend or break then lightly tap the bit to initiate the flute. This way I get plenty energy into the flute and it don't seem to matter if its too much energy like it does if the flute releases without enough energy to go as far as was hoped for.
I got some more pics of platforms and preforms and flutes on my phone if I can figure out how to post them I will and add some more thoughts I have too.

Title: Re: Flutes
Post by: bjrogg on December 05, 2018, 05:18:25 am
Interesting
Title: Re: Flutes
Post by: Hawkdancer on December 05, 2018, 10:47:19 am
How about posting a pic of how that jig actually works?  I am not visualizing the pressure points at all!
Nice work!
Hawkdancer
Title: Re: Flutes
Post by: JW_Halverson on December 05, 2018, 12:39:17 pm
Zero experience at fluting and almost none at all with knapping after the summer of 1989 when I was playing around with it. Mostly commenting so that this will pop whenever someone comments further.

That is an incredible flute, running the length of the stone!  It makes me wonder what the ratio of the loss of mass to the loss of strength/durability would be, seeing as how it retains the two rigid ridges just inside of the cutting edges.  And also what the comparison would be in penetration before and after fluting.  I am sure there are certain advantages in function, even though just plain old bragging rights for sheer cool factor and prettiness and difficulty of execution had to have a little of the spotlight.
Title: Re: Flutes
Post by: Outbackbob48 on December 05, 2018, 01:17:17 pm
1442, thanks again . You have  answered and cleared up a couple issues that I have had with my own fluting. When you say you tap your bit are you actually taping your bit or just pushing outwards with your other hand upon the release of the platform?
Title: Re: Flutes
Post by: 1442 on December 07, 2018, 01:14:59 am
I'm actually tapping it with a hammerstone about the size of a base ball or a 1" bopper.
When the flutes release before I get max pressure built that I want to put on it,  they always turn out narrow and short.

I think some of the advantages of a long fluted point would be a thinner haft and the profile of the tip area with the channel of the flute scar is just built for penetration. The Cumberland people who where making these long fluted points where hunting mastodon, so they where having to poke through some really thick hide and meat.
Then later in time the shorten thinner Folsom points with full length flutes evolved to hunt bison.

Hawkdancer, I'll get a pic of a diagram of a solberger jig and post it. There are other types of fluting jigs too.

Here's some pics of a few more fluted points
This first one is made from raw landscape gravel and shows a good edge view of the tip profile when the flutes go all the way to the tip
 
Title: Re: Flutes
Post by: 1442 on December 07, 2018, 01:18:27 am
This will be just a few random pics of fluted poits
Title: Re: Flutes
Post by: 1442 on December 07, 2018, 01:19:50 am
cont.

Title: Re: Flutes
Post by: 1442 on December 07, 2018, 01:21:08 am
one more edge view
Title: Re: Flutes
Post by: bjrogg on December 07, 2018, 04:31:58 am
Glad to see you back here 1442. Awesome
Bjrogg
Title: Re: Flutes
Post by: Bone pile on December 07, 2018, 06:21:28 am
Very nice ,thanks Bob for bring this up. I see yet another project in my future. I'm building a brick oven now but hopefully making some flint knives soon.
Bone pile
Title: Re: Flutes
Post by: Zuma on December 10, 2018, 09:31:40 pm
No jig flutes
Title: Re: Flutes
Post by: Hawkdancer on December 10, 2018, 10:23:13 pm
Nice work, Zuma, and 1442,  inspiration to the rest of us!
Hawkdancer
Title: Re: Flutes
Post by: 1442 on December 10, 2018, 11:32:35 pm
nice flutes zuma
I always had heck trying to flute points prior to using the jig but I know now I was not setting up the platforms properly at all.
Thanks Hawkdancer,
I been gonna make a drawing of how the jig works to apply pressure for you and to show a couple more details that I cant explain without a picture.
got a few things I need to do for Christmas first though.
Title: Re: Flutes
Post by: 1442 on December 18, 2018, 10:41:54 pm
I made another point with uneven flutes.
I goofed up the platform on the first flute and it didn't go very far so I thought I could make a short flute to match on the second one but I set up my normal platform and put less pressure on it but the flute went way longer than I wanted it to.
I took some pics as I went and started out with a Georgetown slab about 5/16" thick.
Title: Re: Flutes
Post by: 1442 on December 18, 2018, 10:44:18 pm
cont.
Title: Re: Flutes
Post by: 1442 on December 18, 2018, 10:47:59 pm
cont.
Title: Re: Flutes
Post by: 1442 on December 18, 2018, 10:49:53 pm
cont.
Title: Re: Flutes
Post by: 1442 on December 29, 2018, 10:11:31 pm
I fluted a gravel point today and measured the thickness of the channel flakes and stuff just to see how much of the preform a flute actually removes. The two flutes together removed about half the original thickness on this one.
The channel was a bit thicker near where the flutes terminated at .152" and  thinner near the initiation.
The numbers don't add up just right due to the ripples along the flute and my calipers contacting on the crest of them

Thicknesses:
preform           .280"
#1 flute flake   .078
#2 flute flake   .072
flute channel    .146
Title: Re: Flutes
Post by: Chippintuff on January 09, 2019, 07:31:00 pm
Terry, it looks like your W/T ratio on the preform is about 4/1 when you set up to flute. Is that about right? I did a little fluting with a Solberger a few years ago and then got away from it. The last few flutes I did were done with indirect percussion, but even that has been a while now.

I see that your fluting nipple is further to the flute side than mine were, and the angle of the bit is much closer to parallel with the point than mine were. Of course indirect percussion involves a whole different set of angles.

I love the flaking on your Georgetown preform development. That is also some of the prettiest Georgetown I have ever seen.

WA
Title: Re: Flutes
Post by: Chippintuff on January 09, 2019, 07:34:40 pm
As for fluting small points, Tony Soares is a pro of pros, and he does it with a little jig of his design. I have never used one of them, but his points sure indicate that the Soares jig is good.

WA
Title: Re: Flutes
Post by: 1442 on January 09, 2019, 10:55:27 pm
I think the w/t ratio of the preform was a bit flatter, like 4.5 to 1 but I didn't think to include a width messurement.
I've seen the Sores jig online and you're right he does awesome work with it.
A ladder type jig with the pressure lever contacting the platform is something I'd like to try on short flutes like a folsom or San Patrice.
A jig with a fixed length bit like a solberger bit and support rails like a ladder jig with a wedge system to adjust for point length real quick and easy seems like it would be the bomb. specialy with an atomatic preform feeder mechanism to deliver perfectly positioned preforms to where all ya got to do is pull the lever and catch the fluted points as they fall out the bottom. ::)
Title: Re: Flutes
Post by: bassman on January 22, 2019, 05:48:32 am
Amazing looking flutes.