Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Primitive Skills => Topic started by: bjrogg on December 26, 2018, 11:25:37 am
-
I've got four deer hides fleshed. They still have hair on. I've got three brains and probably could get more. I'd like to at least do a couple brain tans and maybe some rawhide. I'm probably going to salt them again and leave them spread out leather side up and stacked on top of each other. Unless someone gives me better advice. I'm thinking my next step would be putting them in a lye solution? Then remove hair when it slips? Do I have to scrape epidermis off hair side then after it slips hair? Or is there a better method?
Bjrogg
-
There is no need to salt the hides especially if you'll be working them soon. You will just have to remove the salt later and in winter there is little chance of them rotting. The salt just keeps the rot away in warmer seasons.
-
Ok Pat, I was thinking I'd salt them because I might not get them all worked right away. I guess the next step would be a lye bath then? Should I do them one at a time? I've only made lye bath for muskrat hides to back my mini bow for mini bow challenge at Marshall. That time I used ashes from burning ash wood and water. Ash trees are all long dead now.
Bjrogg
-
I use garden lime when wet slipping, but ashes from the grill will work, too. If you're still grilling that is (=) >:D! Might scrape the hair off all of them at the same time, wash with real Ivory soap, rinse well, then put into plastic bags and freeze the ones you aren't going to work right away. Got to check my hides to see what needs to be done!
Hawkdancer
-
Thanks Jerry.
I found Eds big buck to buckskin tan along. I might try dry scraping to remove hair and epidural layer. Hoping I can get a couple on frames soon. We'll see
Bjrogg
-
BJ, Here are some of my obsevations, First off I use KOH for my bucking solution, You can use wood ashes or lime or red devil lye. I do not like ashes due to you need to remove charcoal (stains) and ashes are not the same strength ease use, I do not like lime as it seems really slippery and also white residue on everything, never tried red devil. You may have KOH ( potassium hydroxide) on the farm, I put 4oz in 10 gal. of water for 2 hides in a 30 gal plastic garbage can. Depending on temp 3 to4 days in (warm 70deg.) and hair will slip or 8 to 9 if your container is in a cool place.
DO NOT just push the hair off an then grain. As a beginner it easy to become lost. :o Grain is the same color as hide and easy to miss, KOH and other buckings SWELL the grain layer so with experience you will be able to see where you have scraped and what you missed, this is why I say leave hair on and scrape. The hair lets you know where you have scraped, Also be very methodical about removing grain, over lap your strokes so as not to miss any grain.
Now for some good news, If you miss some grain it is not the end of the world, grain left on doesn't let brains penetrate as well therefore creating a harder spot to soften. On the other hand grain left on gives your hide a nice camo tie and dye effect :o ::) after smoking.
As for storage I have done a couple different ways. I used to flesh fresh hides salt and drain for 1 day roll up hide and put in a 5 gal.bucket wth lid that seals and store any where. My new system is to flesh, grain, rinse, acidify, membrain then hang on line and let go completely dry, store dry hides in dry area and keep pest out of them ( dogs, mice)
Maybe I should do like Ed and just become a dry scraper. BJ there are lots of ways to do things but this what works for me and is just my .02 cents worth, Have fun and let us know how thinks are going. I only have 2 more to grain out of 13 or so, then on to the fun stuff. Good Luck Bob
-
BJ, in your cold, dry winter climate you could tack the skins up and let them dry(rawhide) until you are ready to work them. I doubt you would have adverse affects to the skins.
-
BJ...Either way you do it dry scrape or wet scrape getting your tools/containers and or frames pre ready is wise.
I skin and freeze leaving a bit of flesh on them.Got a big freezer here.It also helps then to be avoiding any knife slits then too.I get to them then when weather is better.It's easier to flesh in the frame and on a beam with a little flesh left on them.
I salt hides after fleshing then let flint dry that I'm going chemically tan.Bugs can and will eat on the hair side if left long enough out in warm weather though.Rawhide with no hair and sprayed a little with a bug spray even as cheap as OFF or something keeps the bugs off them here.Does'nt hurt any of the tanning process at all either.
I make my dry scrapers out of bastart mill files.Beveled only on one side at around a 45 degree angle.Sharpened razor sharp with a stone.They'll last through a whole dehairing of at least 1 normal deer before any need of touching the edge up any.Any hardened metal will work.I still use a broke off chunk of a cracked disk blade that I preshaped and then heated red hot and dunked in 10W oil as a flesher scraper.It's so sharp it'll take ribbons off wet rawhide off for thinning a hide if I want to.
Do enough of them BJ and you'll get a feel for what you like.As long as your satisfied that's the main thing.Everyone hits little bumps in the road along the way.It's a learning curve to go through.
-
BJ....4 hides is enough for a nice shirt and a bag or two.Depending on size of hides of course.Depends what you want to make with them.Large long hides will make a pants too.The limits are endless for things to make.Have fun!!
-
Thanks everyone. I'm thinking my next step is going to be making some frames and tools. I think I'll try to get some laced in frame and drying. They should keep now that their fleshed especially in this weather. I'm thinking I might be able to do inside a building using dry scrape method and be able to clean up my mess without getting in to much trouble. I was originally thinking I would give them lye bath, remove hair and then clean them and put them on frame. Then I could scrape inside without the hair mess. I can't wait for better weather. I will be to busy with farming then. For hair off raw hide do I have to scrape off epidural layer. I'm thinking not.
Thanks again everyone.
Bjrogg
Ed I got two more yet and a small rawhide already scraped both sides from ksnow. I figured four would probably be enough entertainment for now. I am looking forward to playing around with the finished product. Maybe the wife and I will be styling.
-
Yes you're correct...the epidermis need not be taken off for rawhide.The rawhide will be thinner though without it.If lymed for hair removal delyming and rinsing is neccessary though.
A fan and around 80 degrees F will be needed to dry them properly to dry scrape hair off.Neck area will be last to get dry enough.Might take up to 2 days to dry good enough too.
Dry scraping will accumulate a lot of hair.When doing it outside I like to do it on days with no wind....Ha Ha.
I have yet to find a purpose for all of that loose hair.....Ha Ha.
Not all people are the same but Robin loves the smell of smoked hides.Gaurantee you the misquitos will not bite....Ha Ha.
Many methods of brain tanning are out there.All with the same end product.You can do combinations too inner twining 2 different methods if you like.
I like to have a good stretch on the rawhide before braining for good penetration.
3 pig brains or pounds should do at least 3 hides.That'll get you started.You can acquire more brains while doing those for the rest of
the hides.A normal deer brain is around 3/4 pound.
-
Thanks Ed. Ive been wanting to make my wife a Pocahontas's type outfit. Maybe if she knows the mosquitoes won't bite she'll wear it.lol. She hates mosquitoes. We're both kinda short and wide so we probably require different size hides than you for pants.lol.
Bjrogg
-
Yes a long inseam is a PITA....Ha Ha.Kinda wish you lived closer.We'd get er done!!!!If you got heat in a shed you're golden!!!
-
I wish we lived closer to Ed.
Bjrogg
-
One frame built and one hide laced. This frame is 6.5x5.5 to outside of two by fours. This was a pretty good sized buck my brother shot with 12 gauge. It's got a couple holes I'll try to fix up later like Ed suggested in his tan along.
Anyone see anything I'm doing wrong? I used plastic baler twine to lace. I probably could have trimmed legs a bit. Lots of work ahead yet. You guys that do 30 a year really have my respect. Heck anyone that does three a year has my respect.
Bjrogg
-
Looks good BJ. I usually soak the hides in a KOH solution to slip the hair and remove the epidermis. Some times the hair slips easy and the epidermis stays on. I try to leave it on for rawhide, but if I hit it in a few spots, I'll take it off the entire hide. Your frame looks good. The corner braces will make stretching the legs easier. To keep from having to wrap around the 2x's, you could drive nails in every 4 inches or so and just go around the nail head. This year, I fleshed the hides over a beam and stretched them in frames to dry. Once the weather warms, I'll buck, scrape and stretch them again. The bucking works better in warmer weather, I've done mine in the basement when its too cold outside. After bucking and dehairing, the hides need to be rinsed. Moving water is best, but a vinegar bath will work also.
Kyle
-
Looking good BJ.
-
BJ, nice big clean hide, nice job framing. Bob
-
Thanks Everyone
I got another frame built and another hide laced on it. My brother even gave me a hand with this one. Must have made it look like to much fun to pass up.
Kyle I might have to try that nail idea. Im thinking roofing nails might work good. think I got a box of them.
the second one isn't as big and I didn't skin it so its got some holes. it sure is a lot lighter.
Bjrogg
-
Good rawhide strip candidate.
-
Ed, are you suggesting I give it a KOH bath? Then remove hair, rinse well restrech, dry and then cut in strips. Or dry scrape hair then just cut into strips.
Bjrogg
-
It doesn't matter to me what way you want to process the rawhide as I've done both ways.I used to use a can of red devil lye for dehairing then on to the fleshing beam after rinsing and delyming.I've heard it's almost impossible to get any more but hav'nt investigated into it lately.They think it's ultra dangerous and can be.Latex gloves are suggested when using that stuff.
Which ever way conforms to be the easiest for you.The reason I suggested it was the size and thickness reasons.Yearlings make very nice thin rawhide but still tough as heck.Rawhide backing strips are handy to have around and good for trade for others too.Rawhide can be used for more things than backing strips and having some available is handy as it will keep well for years and years stored properly.
If obvious holes are present on your small hide right from the get go and you can see more knife slits on there then during the process of stretching making brain tan more holes will arise.Inspecting your hide good before working dry is suggested for that reason.Sewing suspicious knife slits prior to stretching and drying takes care of that.If the knife slit is so thin you can almost see daylight it'll be a hole.
On the contrary if you make brain tan from the small hide that's thinner that's a good one to get the feel of it too as they are easier.Are you confused yet?.....Ha Ha.
It's just a suggestion.You may have alternative reasons for making more brain tan or more hides on the horizon to process for clothing.Mature does and young bucks make excellent clothing and bag material.Larger older bucks make good pants material.When making clothes etc. it's good to match thicknesses' etc.The holes are no problem in that smaller hide and give it some character for clothing.
Summer killed deers' leather is thinner than winter killed too.Just a natural thing that happens.You see that processing fur for the fur trade too.I used to do a lot of hides from a rendering plant that picked up road killed deer.
-
Thanks Ed. I didn't type that out very well. I'm sorry. I wasn't asking which method to use really. I was just asking if you were suggesting that I use one of those methods to make rawhide instead of brain tanning. It's not terribly small. It's just that the first one was pretty good sized, probably almost as big as your big fella buck. It was from a mature 8 point buck one of my old timer friends shot opening day gun season. November 15th. I think since I already have it fleshed and on frame, I'll probably practice dry scraping and maybe brain tanning on it. I should still get some useful material from it.
Bjrogg
PS I'll try get a picture up when I can
-
Going by square footage is a good bench mark comparing hides.
-
Here's a couple pictures of second hide. Frame is same size. 6.5 x 5.5
Bjrogg
-
Nice pics and hides.Step by step you'll get er done.Good thing now is you can take your time deharing and do it when you have time after it drys.Keep the dogs and cats away!!!Mice can even eat your lace strings too causing slack in your rawhide.It's always cool to see the meat grain on the leather on the flesh side.Scars on the hair side too from previous injuries.I've known people who cut scars out and then sew them up as they are hard and do not take smoke through them.I've always let it be what it is.It's character!!
To know for sure to sew any knife slits it must be dehaired first.It's a thing from here I really can't diagnose properly.I'd have to be handling it myself to know for sure.When dry scrape dehairing around those knife slits it's best to go with the slit not across it.Even with epidermis removal wet scraping go with the slit not across it.Mistakes can happen in a split second....Part of the learning curve.
It's all about the sharpness of your scraper and the right right amount of pressure while dry scrape dehairing.Thinner areas of hide you use less pressure.Thicker areas more pressure is allowed.The epidermis will be thicker where the leather is thicker also.Places like the flanks where it's thinner the epidermis is thinner too.I sometimes will just sand the epidermis off places like the flanks.I like 60 grit for that.Even breaking it up so brain oils can get in there will help.The neck/spine length/and hip areas are your thickest areas.
If it wash boards too much it probably is'nt dry enough yet.Wash boards can be removed going with the line of wash board.Then sanded smooth.No problem.Wash boarding does not occur when wet scraping removal of epidermis.It makes beautiful smooth brain tan on the hair side every time.I always liked to use a fairly dull flesher blade or not exactly super sharp I'd say doing it that way too.You can feel it taking the epidermis off as you stroke.A fair amount of pressure is used dehairing that way so look out for scars and slits.
Knife slits are just the things a person can get letting someone else skin the deer.That's a learning curve I learned long ago too.If a someone wants to give me their hides I'll skin it myself or advise them on not what to do.I always skin my own always and mostly pull it off or as they say fist it off.Getting that extra meat on the carcass really never amounts to much and the extra on the hide makes it easier to flesh.It's fairly hard work roping a hide dry and investing effort into a nice piece of leather is always the best use of time.
The fellas at the rendering plant that skinned deer pulled all the hides off them with an electric wench so only knife work was opening up of the hide on the legs/around the neck and main cut up the belly.They always came to me clean with no knife slits or if any right by the edges and no problem.
-
BJ, second hide looks real good also, I get most of my hides from hunters that skin there own. I wished they would just call me and let me skin there deer :o They are free so I just have take what I get and sort them out and make what I can. Trying to get enough real good hides together to make me a real nice shirt a pr of leggings and possible a pr of pants. I have a 2 hide shirt that I made as my first attempt, I was scared to death to make the first cut on my labor intense hides :o (A) Came out pretty good. I just hate it when I get a real nice hide and it has a slice that is half way thru the thickness, usually rips out just before you are totally soft. I have gotten pretty dang good at sewing holes with a #12 needle and dynma thread, Real job to just thread the needle but will make cuts and holes just disappear. Have fun and take your time. Bob
-
Thanks Ed and Outback. I made a tool from a broken disc blade tonight. Hide is still way to wet yet. Temperature is about 59 degrees in shop. There are ceiling fans and good circulation but it could be awhile before they dry enough yet. I do feel good about them now though knowing they are in good shape for storing now other than animals eating them. Did have to chase the neighbors dog away from one I left outside while taking a break from fleshing. Sure glad I saw him sneak up to that hide. He just barely got it in his mouth when I saw him. I might make another frame or two yet. I've got some reclaimed 2 x4 s. I'd like to hang them from wall so they were more out of the way. That way I could keep animals away to.
Bjrogg
-
Good idea suspending those frames up in the air.No worries then.
I watched a U tube of a Cree way method of using toothed bone fleshers on a moose hide.Pretty cool really.That moose is big.I saw at least 3 people helping her.
-
You want to remember to hang them far enough from the wall for good air circulation.
-
You want to remember to hang them far enough from the wall for good air circulation.
I was thinking that already DC. Thanks though good point.
Bjrogg
-
Well these two are dry enough to dehair now. I made a little progress. Hope to finish dry scraping this one yet this year.
Bjrogg
-
Cool beans BJ....They dried fairly quick did'nt they.Your doing fine and your scraper seems to be getting it done good.Doing the larger hide first heh.You'll be surprised it'll be done soon in no time.One thing...Not all epidermis on every deer is the same color.Most times either gray or pinkish.Do the little trick of light on one side of hide seeing through the hide to pick up any epidermis missed.
PS....If you find a good useful use for that hair...I'd like to know of it....Ha Ha.
-
Thanks Ed. Yup it seemed like just getting a strip started was the hardest part. I almost have this one done now. If I was ten years younger I'd be working on the second one by now.lol. My tool seems to be working pretty good once I get under the hair. I thought about doing the smaller one first, but I was closer to the big one.lol. I'll probably tan it first maybe, or maybe not. My buddy dropped off three more hides this morning and heads. I would like to check with local slaughter house and see if I can get more brains. Lord knows I need em.
Bjrogg
-
Your gonna be a busy fella....Ha Ha.Once you get that hide dehaired good and sanded to your satisfaction and cut out your frame can get freed up for lacing in another hide,or if you have more frames made it does'nt matter.
You should get be getting enough hides to make many things.
-
Yup, I'm just a brute for punishment. I think I'm getting the hang of it. Should get me back in shape again if it doesn't kill me first.lol. I finished the big one except for as you said sanding. That might have to wait till next year. My wife and I met on New Year's Eve so we always have to do something.
Happy New Year everyone. Stay safe and watch out for those who may have over indulged.
Bjrogg
Here it is ready to sand.
-
Looking good BJ, lots of work but well worth it ones they are all finished. :)
Pappy
-
I hope all that epidermis is off.Normally the whole thing will be an egg shell white color after dehairing.I see a pinkish hew.I could be wrong.Wish I could see it first hand.Most times it's the no.1 reason why first time brain tanners get stiffish hides.I'd make sure it's off though.
Not trying to be picky here,just trying to save you time and effort with success being the main goal.Smoke does'nt go through the leather at all with that on their either and it does'nt acquire a nice smokey color then.
Don't worry about blood staining in the rawhide either if making brain tan.After braining and twisting a few times that'll disappear pretty much.If not completely then after smoking it sure will.
We'll stay home over new years evening.Have a happy relaxed evening into the new year.
-
BJ. lookin good and no extra holes. I bet ya never thought that a deer had that much hair :o Don't forget me if ya find a good use for it. I know that ya got quite workout and would love to tell ya that wet scrape is easier, its not. I have come to brilliant conclusion that most primitive skills are just plain hard work :o :o ;D A friend of mine does a lot of Braintan and he gets $18 to $20 / sg. ft. I keep telling him he's workin to cheap :o When ya get to the smaller hide be careful on the flanks it is real easy to push your tool thru them, Bob
-
Thanks Ed . Don't worry about nit picking. I'm looking for problems and how to fix em before I mess up. If you think I should scrap more I'll try. Maybe I'll see what the smaller one looks like before I brain this one. Im pretty sure I got a lot of it off, but maybe not all?
Thanks Outback. I knew the hair was going to make a pretty big pile. I'm thinking it was less messy dry. I tried to talk my brother into making a sleeping bag with that hair for insulation. He didn't bite.
Sure would be nice to use that by-product for something useful. I'm sure the mice would love it.
Bjrogg
-
BJ, ya might be on to something with the sleeping bag thing, not sure how to get all the ticks, keds and other critters out but can ya see yourself waking up with 4 inches of snow on your bag and just shake it off and get up and go. Nice.
-
The thing about dry scraping is that on old thicker hided animals with thicker epidermis it can come off in layers so to speak.Not just with one stroke.Especially in the neck areas.On younger thinner hided animals many times 1 stroke is all that's needed.This can depend on the sharpness of your scraper too and amount of pressure used.It's that learning curve again!Although we never stop learning the more you do the easier it gets as you get a feel for it.The thinner flanks are done with the scraper as sharp as possible so less pressure is needed.A narrower band taken off can aid in that too.
With the wet scraping it usually always comes off to the leather depth and not in layers although you've got to watch it like Outback said not to leave any thin overlooked strips.Overlapping your strokes prevents that from happening.Those strips do not smoke well either.Overlapping strokes dry scraping helps to eliminate all of the epidermis too.
Dressing and smoking hides like this is simple,and most times simple does not mean easy.I could ramble on and on I guess just because I like the outcome of the process so much and I guess a connection and respect for and with the people who did it 100's of years ago and the simple fact that it still produces top notch double tough leather.All it really is,is softened smoked rawhide in reality with no chemicals in it to be breaking down the natural toughness,and everyone has heard the saying tough as rawhide before to confirm that.
The hair I believe would make an excellent buffer from the cold ground camping out in a primitive situation.Hair on deer hides served that purpose too.In the past at froze foot rendezvous's I slept on willow rod mats on the frozen ground which did the trick along with buffalo robes laid down.
There are some amazing brain tanners out there,but you'll find that's all done basically the same with some variations but with the same thing in mind.The bigger hides require more effort but the rewards are bigger too.In my time era of making them per sq. ft. the price on them has almost doubled.From $10.00/sq.ft. back in the early 1980's to $20.00/sq.ft. nowadays just for deer hides.Thicker hides like elk/moose/buffalo will get a higher premium price yet.Which they should.They are a lot of work.
I'm satisfied nowadays to just supply myself with a little extra to swap with others about as my bread and butter for living does not depend on selling brain tanned hides.Doing your own hides from animals you shot with primitive equipment is enough of a very satisfying feeling for me.
-
Thanks Outback and Ed. I did a lot more scraping and sanding on the big hide today. I think it's looking and feeling real good. I sure hope so anyway. I also scraped the smaller hide. I did push tool through thin stuff on flanks twice. I think I'm ready to brain them next. One of my buddies stopped over tonight. He is retired now but working at a taxidermist when he feels like it. He said he could get me some brains. Hoping to get these hide tanned soon.
Bjrogg
-
I haven't had time to do anything since New Year's Day. I think the big one is good. Might do a little more on little one.
Here's some pictures
Bjrogg
-
BJ, you're at a nice stage where they will keep, actually probably get better everyday as mucus evaporates so brain will absorb better.
-
Looking good BJ, you have inspired me to get some out and get started, I have 5 or 6 in rawhide that just need tanning and 20 or so in the freezer, just been waiting on cool dry weather we usually get in the winter, so far this winter that hasn't happened. ??? I work mostly outside under my shed so wet damp weather sure makes it tough to stretch and get them dry after braining with weather like we have been having, also makes it tough to get the hides in the rack to dry enough to dry scrape. If they aren't really dry and tight it make dry scraping really hard to do a good job. :)
Pappy
-
BJ, ya might be on to something with the sleeping bag thing, not sure how to get all the ticks, keds and other critters out but can ya see yourself waking up with 4 inches of snow on your bag and just shake it off and get up and go. Nice.
Most of the little critters will migrate looking for a new place to live. A dusting of lindane powder, borax, mothballs, or similar would probably get the rest. Could also store the hair in a big cedar box until ready to use(but NOT momma's heirloom cedar chest!). Maybe smoking the hair would also work. Hides look good, BJ!
Hawkdancer
-
That's nice to know Outback. It might be awhile before I can get time to finish them up now.
Pappy, it's nice feeling to have inspired you. You certainly have inspired me.
Jerry, my dad was watching me dehair the second hide. He was joking around saying what are you going to do with all that hair. Your aren't going to waist it are you. I told him I was going to make a sleeping bag and use it for insulation and give it to him for Christmas. He thought that was funny, but said no thanks.
Bjrogg
-
There is quite a following and experience using soy lecithin BJ instead of brains.The granulated kind in a health food dept of a large grocery chain store like Hy Vee.2 large spoonfulls in a quart of tap water[not hot].Then left to set for 12 hours to dizzolve.Then 3 quarts more of very warm[not hot] water added with a shot of olive oil.Then the normal stretching/roping process is done like with using brains.They all say with great results.I can't vouch for it but pretty sure it's good stuff producing the same softness as using brains.
Not sure about whether is stays soft in real cold weather like brains will do though.I think it's still just about the same.
-
Thanks Ed. I do have some brains. I'd like to try them first but might go soy lecithin for some if I run out of brains. I haven't been able to talk my wife into letting me borrow her blender. I even told her I'd keep it and she could buy a new one. She doesn't want a new one, she likes her old one. She looked at Goodwill but nothing. I might have to buy a new one but Christmas has my wallet empty.
I did cut the two hides out of the frames and laced two more. I also got three more hides fleshed. I'm sure they'd be ready to dry scrap tomorrow. I've been busy trying to get dead ash trees ready for firewood processor. Sorting out some for lumber. Sure wish I'd of done it six years ago. It would have made much better firewood and lumber then.
Bjrogg
-
At rendezvous demonstrations of brain tanning I used to just mush and squeeze brains between my hands in pail after cooking them and letting them cool.Immersed hide then.Worked just as well.5 hides will do a lot of projects.
That old beetle has been hard on your ash.At least you got something out of it.I see ash here yet but many red elm are dead.
-
Thanks again Ed, I'm not afraid to give em a squeeze. I really do want to get back at em. Maybe I can get some time this weekend. Ground is frozen now and no snow so working in woods is going pretty good right now.
Bjrogg
-
Cool.Striking the iron while it's hot so to speak or getting things done when conditions allow it.I'll do a couple of hides when it gets warmer.Have ideas of making another pants and shirt here myself.Doing 2 maybe 3 a week is plenty for me nowadays.I got more tanned coon hides to make pouches from too.Want to donate at least one at Mo Jam.
A cheap blender to emulsify brains from a thrift store does'nt cost too much.I use mine for everything else too after rinsing it.Robin does'nt mind....lol.
-
Ed, have you ever had blood poisoning from cuts on hands and bacteria from brains or possible bucking solution? I have had it twice , first time was sewing lots of big holes and going faster than I knew how. Trying to get them sewed up before hide dried out to much. Real small puncture from a #12 needle and then neglecting to make it bleed immediately. Second time was not as bad had a cut on a finger that got a little infected but I got after this one early. I think this could also be one negative of wet scraping. Dirty hides mixed with warm water and KOH and allowed to set for 3 or 4 days sounds like bacteria to me, Maybe there is enough lye in there to keep bacteria at a minims. Seems that I got infection both times at brain stage, I now make sure and heat brains real well before using. A friend of mine that does and enormous amount of hides cooks his brains and then dehydrates and uses them as a dry powder. Sure doesn't effect his hides they are really nice. Finished 2 hides up this week, one came out real nice and the second one is boardy in spots :( May smoke and do again. Bob
-
That's good to know Outback. I did have a few little cuts on my fingers. Seems I always have always cuts on my fingers. I did put peroxide on them last night. I brained my big hide yesterday. I tried wringing it a several times. It was really slippery and hard to hold ends. It seemed to absorb most of the solution. I left it in fridge and brains overnight. Hoping to work at it some more today.
Bjrogg
-
BJ, are you making a donut and using a 3 ft. or so pole to twist up donut good and tight, I have actually ripped some hides that had holes from twisting to tite :( I like to soak hide in warm brains so I don't refridge while soaking( overnite bacteria) :o Make sure and cover in warmer weather, lots of bugs seem to like warm brains also. Bob
-
Not sure I understand the doughnut part Outback. I heated the brains to boiling and let simmer for several minutes. Then I brushed on dry hide both sides. When brains were cooled down enough to hold my hand in but still very warm I put in hide in brains. I removed hide and put middle section around fixed object. I wrap ends around stick and hold while I put second stick in center and twisted it. I had trouble holding ends on first stick. I left brains on hide. Maybe I should have kinda squeezed brains out first? Hide was very slippery.
Bjrogg
-
Outback I just watched a YouTube video. I think I understand the doughnut now.
Bjrogg
-
Bob...I've hav'nt had that type infection happen to me from braining hides with small cuts on my hands and my hands always have nicks on them from skinning/making bows or working around here.I cook my brains till gray.I did once get that infection from running a nail through my foot long ago.Those are serious situations that can need doctors attention.
Robins' son just got it on his hand from a cut.He's a roofer.He let it go too long.Had to stay in hospital 4 days intervenious antibiotic to get on top of it.Doctor cut it open to clean it out too.It's not too uncommon to happen.Punctures or cuts that don't bleed out well are susceptible.I keep hydrogen peroxide handy too.
After roping enough hides the backside of knuckles will get callused from gripping the leather roping.A band aid is needed sometimes so I don't get any blood on my nice white brain tan....lol.
BJ...A bigger hide like you got there I'd twist and wring it a good 7 to 8 times for sure.Yearling hides usually only take a few wringings.Wring it from length wise and them crosswise.Alternate.Get as much moisture out as possible.Pull it apart stretching it to it's natural shape[really stretching it too/I use the rope for this] I pay close attention to really stretching spine areas/neck/and hip areas before redipping into warm brain slurry.When reemulsivying hide into warm brain slurry squeeze and pull on hide.When you can see small air bubbles coming through hide as you squeeze it's brained good enough.
I let my nose tell me when a brain slurry is no good to use any more.If used your hide may come out soft but will not smell very good.
-
I did figure out how to make a doughnut. That method worked nicely. Hide wrung multiple times. I rotated the doughnut multiple times re brained. I think hide looks really good. I'm going to sew holes now.
Bjrogg
Was hard to get pictures as my hands were pretty slippery, but here's one.
-
Ed your a welth of knowledge. Love your posts. :OK
-
BJ, you got your donut thing goin on now. I put a loop of bailer twine on my pole and slide it over your twister stick so I can walk away and let it drip. Ed I worked construction my whole life and always had cuts on my hands and never had any bad infections but have had 2 since I started braintanning. Maybe my tolerance changed since I got old :o :o Might not of had brains hot enough also, We have CWD now in Penna. , not my area but still need to be vigilant :( I think my hides become a little boardy from trying to get away with to few of braining and wringing. Ed how did you make your hide bag for smoking. I have tried glue and sewing and lately have been using a staple gun, All 3 methods seem to take forever, any tips. Bob
-
I got the holes sewed up and did some stretching and breaking hide. I even got my wife and son to do a little tugging and we all pulled in different directions. Won't get it done tonight but it's coming along nicely. Here's the holes I sewed
Bjrogg
-
Bob....I par boil brains a good 10 minutes till they are gray.Then into the blender to emulsify.Other than that I can't explain reason for infection your getting.There's all kinds of different variations of infections out there.Most are normal I'd say but if left to go septic they are bad news.You might need to wear rubber gloves.
One thing I acquired back in the 80's & 90's rendezvousing after sewing many outfits/hats/bags and you name it by hand or the quick stitch double stitch tool was to get myself a good sewing machine.Still got that quick stitcher though as it is handy to have yet.Used to sew the hides to smoke into a tube by hand for a while and tried the glueing method too but did'nt care for it.Stapling may work but I like my tube sealed tight forcing smoke through the leather.I've got a table top with it's own oil pan singer sweat shop machine that'll sew 7 layers of canvas if need be.Saves me much time.Used to have a singer surging machine too but sold it.Made dozens of fur hats with that machine.I have a Viking zig zag table top low industrial level machine I'll let go of now too.
I sew my brain tanned hide into a tube and attach a skirt to the bottom of hide.Fits over a 1/3 piece of a steel 30 gallon barrel that most times is about the exact same circumference as the bottom of hide tube.Simple tri pod set up over it to hold hide up.My method varying on intensity of the smoke takes around 1 hour on each side.I like my hides darker than most.Always smoke flesh side to skin darker than outside or hair side.I smoke 1 hide at a time.I see them smoking 2,3.or even 4 at a time which is hard to get them all the same color that way unless suspended in a teepee or smoke shed.I check on mine while smoking to match other hides I have.The hotter and more coals used will produce a darker color quicker.A person does'nt want it so hot that you can't leave your hand in there.Too much heat and leather don't get along too well anyway.I like to do it in a calm area with no wind.The wind shaking the tube while smoking will make smoking job streaky also.
If holes are'nt sewn prior to smoking the hole area will be much darker than surrounding leather.Stuffing a piece of tissue or toilet paper in hole will stop that and it'll be same color as surrounding leather.
PS....The same thing happens when leaky holes from hand sewing into tube are on the edge.Some people don't mind the variation in degree of shades while smoking hides.If dark enough a good soaking in water and reroping when almost dry will even things out color wise too.
-
BJ....If hide is'nt dry put it in a plastic bag/twist it shut and keep it cool while not working it.
-
Thanks for the help Outback and Ed. I'm going to put it in a bag now and get ready for bed. I tackle it another time.
Bjrogg
Would sure like a sewing machine and knowledge of how to use it Ed
-
Thanks Ed.
-
Dang Bob, I figured as tough as your old hands were nothing could infect you. ;) All jokes aside I do like Ed and boil mine, never really had a problem and I do put them in the fridge when I am done if I plan on doing another and just add to it. BJ here is a picture of my set up to ring out the hide, maybe give you an idea. I just drape the hide over it head to tail [no picture of that] and then throw the long end over, the roll up one side and then the other over top of that to make a donut so to speak. I will try and get a picture of how it looks rolled up before you ring it if you want.
Pappy
-
I think I did it the same Pappy. I like you wooden pole though. I use steel pipe and hide wanted to slip and slide around. I figured it out though.
Bjrogg
-
Pappy ya got the old part right :o Since I retired hands seem to be getting softer all the time :( Been twisting up a handrill fire about every other day to try and keep some tuffiness in them, Also knapping keeps them nice and pretty and soft ::) ::) Pappy you getting shorter or that's a big deer hide. ;D Bob
-
Good pics Pappy.This is what's this site is all about.
-
;D ;D ;D It is a big hide Bob. ;)
Pappy
-
You need not beat yourself up too bad if it does'nt come out as soft as you would like first few times.I can't remember how many I had to retry or rebrain back then before consistent success happened.
PS...I'd say that's an elk hide Pappy has got there.Pappys' got the perfect enviornment to brain tan soften hides.Plus with so many visitors help is'nt too far way either.
BJ...that's a nice job sewing those holes.
-
Nope not an Elk Ed, just a big old Tennessee white tail, about 185 field dressed if I remember right. Some of our deer are long and lanky and some are short and stubby, They say when they stocked them here in the early 60's some came from Texas and others came from WI. and they are totally different in body size. Still shows up today. Here it is when killed. :)
Pappy
-
Pappy, have fun on the neck and hips on that one. Where"s Jesse for them tuff neck ones :o ;D
-
That is a nice sized hide from a very good sized deer.As big as a lot of deer up here.You must me shorter than I remember you then.Could be genetics with the size of these deer.I'm not totally sure myself.I know up north things bulk up weight wise for the upcoming cold more so than down south.Coon as an example also.Larger bodies stay warmer in the extreme cold.
I know since I've been aging deer some by their teeth I see deer or bucks too that you'd think were'nt that old according to their antler size but are older,and vica verca too.I'm sure it did'nt matter to the natives way back then.Meat was meat and hide was hide and that's all that really mattered.When you ran out you went and got more.
-
I am 5 7 Ed. Ya Bob the hips and neck are tough on all of them for me, I try and thin them a bit. Jesse is missed for sure, he could pull and stretch on one all day. :)
Pappy
-
That explains a lot of the size difference besides it being wet or brained and stretched length wise.
-
Hide is coming along nicely. It isn't completely as soft as flannel but pretty close. I'm pleased. I think I can get it a little better yet. Next step smoking. I may put that off awhile yet. Don't have anything setup and I'm thinking that'll be a outside job. Might be summer project. I'll probably try to get some more to this stage yet.
Bjrogg
PS wife likes it a lot better now.
-
Pretty good first try I'd say.You should be happy.People usually come away from the process when they see the results.....Ha Ha.I've smoked in the winter many times.Cold has no effect on the process.
-
Thanks Ed. It's my first deer hide tan and first brain tan. I've skinned, scraped and put up lots of other critters. Even tanned a few so I know how much work is involved. It was much easier than the bear I did last year. I did learn lots doing the bear that would help on the next one. I also learned a lot brain tanning this deer hide. I know it will help for next one. I all honesty it went better than I expected and I'm thrilled to have used just the brains. Didn't have to buy a thing. The hide is so soft and I think I can get it a little better yet.
Thanks for all the help guys.
Bjrogg
-
That looks good BJ , nice job. I have 1 ready to smoke also and 2 wrapped in the freezer that need stretching and drying, just to wet here. Raining now and calling for 2 more inches over the weekend with snow on the back side so it will be a few day before I get back on them. Good news is they will hold in the freezer . ;)
Pappy
-
Good work BJ. :OK
I'm following the thread with great interest
Never tanned a single critter but it's on the list
-
Nice work BJ. I tried brain tanning in high school, with very limited information. You may have inspired me to give it another go. Or I'll just send all my rawhide over to you. Can't wait to see what you make from it.
Kyle
-
Thanks Pappy. I'm thinking I might try getting more of my hides to hair off rawhide. I have one more there already to brain. Two more dry on stretchers fleshed and ready to remove hair. Three more fleshed and waiting to go on frames. Isn't going to leave me a lot of spare time for knapping and building bows. It is possible to do some multi tasking while tanning. I did get my "presentation pole" done while doing this one. I'll have to hang more stuff on it and get some pictures of it with a nice background. Going to use it to display my stuff when people ask me to do presentations. It turned out pretty nice .
Thanks GlisGlis. I've played around with hides for along time. I've always enjoyed them. I just started tanning them about three or four years ago. I'd still like to learn more about making stuff from them.
Kyle. I'm betting if you tried the brain tanning again you'd probably have more success. It actually went much better than I imagined and I love the end product. It's still a little stiff around neck but I'm still working on it and I think I'll get it. I'm thinking a smaller one will be much easier. If you try it again don't be afraid to ask questions. I told Susie I was going to make a dress for her. She doesn't think so but she really does like how soft it is
Bjrogg
-
I got another hide scraped last night. This was a doe someone gave me. She was taken last day of late doe season. I'm not sure if it's the way I Sharpened my scrapper or because she was harvested so late in winter, but this hide was way different than the first two I did. Maybe a combination of both. Her hair was incredibly thick. Making it really hard to see what I was doing at times. Her hide seemed to have spots I had trouble with my tool catching and cutting through with no warning. It did have that crunchy sound like chasing a Osage ring. I scraped spots that gave me more trouble softening first hide more aggressively. Got most hair to come off attached to epidermis layer.
Bjrogg
-
Yep that is how it is supposed to come off, I can usually tell if I am not getting it all by all the loose hair going everywhere. If you are doing it right and seems you are it is a mess but not near as big a mess as it is if you are just shaving the hair. Also when you tan it, it will feel like a day old beard if you don't get all the epidermis off with it. You need to do like I did BJ just build more racks. ;) :) :) :) and yes it does take away from other project time for sure, especially if you have more than one going at a time. :)
Pappy
-
Thanks Pappy. After braining and breaking my first hide I could see that a bit more scrapping in the beginning would save a lot of time breaking hide. at least that's what I'm hoping. My first one turn out nice, but I think I could have scrapped a bit more.
bjrogg
-
Bj, finally caught a little sun and got up to about 25 today, thought I might smoke a couple today, Sure didn't seem to warm out. I smoked these 2 with some dead ash punk mixed with Aspen punk. I'm really liking the Aspen, nice color and don't seem to smell smokey for ever like some other woods that I have tried. Here's a pic of my setup and a couple airing out. Bob
-
Thanks Outback. I'm afraid I really got sidetracked with putting my ash lumber on my man cave. I e still got a few things I need to finish up on it but it might not all get done this winter. It did turn out really nice though and I'm very glad I sawed up that dead ash.
I did finally get all the hides I had fleshed at least on stretchers now. I've got three brained, one dehaired and three more drying on frames. I've got a taxidermist buddy that has a very old sewing machine used for sewing leather. I'm thinking when I get them all brained I'm going to talk to him about sewing them for smoking. I've had a lot going on this winter and it's flying by. I've still got a bear hide and my two selfbow buck hides I'd like to tan. Also two red fox and a coon. I'm hoping to do the fox, coon and maybe bear next week, well start em then anyway. I'll probably just Chemical tan them. It still takes a stretch of time I need to dedicate to them. The two selfbow hides I kinda got something different I've been thinking of doing. Have to see if I can find the time for all my projects.
Really appreciate the pictures of your setup.
Bjrogg
-
BJ,
You can actually use a stapler to make a tube for smoking the hide, not primitive but it works and leaves much smaller holes! Got that idea from Ken Wee, a Native American friend. He also said to have a long smoke tube to cool the smoke before it gets to the hide, 15-20 feet. A very slight draft will keep the smoke moving, but close the damper if adding more fuel. Punk is good! I am not expert at tanning, just passing on what Ken told me!
Hawkdancer
-
Bj, an old sewing machine would be good. I hand sewed this last one and it took forever :( I have tried glueing them and also stapling, each had it's draw backs. Sewing worked the best and held up well when turning hide inside out to do other side, glue was frail for turning , staples work pretty good but take sometime to remove and if you miss one it will cut ya >:( making the bags is my least favorite part of the whole process, but turning it inside out and seeing the nice smokey colored soft leather makes it all seem worthwhile. I know what your saying about to many projects going on. Spring is real close and I'm still not even close to finishing up my winter stuff. Your man cave looked great with the ash, good save. Bob
That big empty space in wood shed needs replaced before next winter (=) . I wonder what's going to happen when I get old, only 70 now. (A). Yikes Bob
-
Looks good Bob, like your set up, I have a stove just like that, may give it a try, sure would make it easier when I need to add wood or punk, Mine
is a cut in half 55 gallon drum and you have to lift one side to add wood and have to be very careful not to dislodge the pipe. I also had sew mine and it is kind of a pain but as you sad well worth it. Sounds like you have been busy BJ, by the way anyone heard from Ed, haven't seen him around lately, hope all is good with him. :)
Pappy
-
I've been wondering about Ed to Pappy. Sure hope he's doing well.
Bjrogg
-
I've done these brain tan hides about every way possible. Wet scrape, dry scrape, lye to slip the hair, no lye, flesh on a beam, flesh on a frame, smoke each hide individual or many together in a smoke box, yadda yadda. Many ways will work, and the consistency of the finished product changes a bit with each method. Personally, flesh them on a frame, scrape them on a frame, no lye. Pappy nailed it. When done right the epidermis and hair shave off in little ribbons instead of loose hair flying everywhere. We built a big box, about 6 foot tall and 6 foot wide. Maybe double that deep and we started smoking dozens of hides at one time, without fear of any getting lit up. Yours look really good! nice work.
ps. Sadly ours here in Texas are rarely if ever that big. Barb wire scars galore.
-
WhaAaat?, you mean everything ain't bigger in Texas?! >:D (lol) (lol)! Couldn't resist! I'm used to mule deer, does average about 120# or more, haven't scored a buck for a long time! Still trying to decide how to finish the hide Jacie scored in the fall season. I do remember many years ago, a young lad took a whitetail buck that weighed over 200# in Missouri with a bow! His dad's farm, figured that buck had been eating their corn all summer, they should have him for Thanksgiving dinner! State record if I remember correctly!
Hawkdancer
-
I have never figured out how to do a bunch of hides at once, I thought about building a smoke house but was told by the guy who taught me that you want to force the smoke through the hide and didn't figure a smoke house would do that. I have stitched 2 together and done 2 at a time before that worked pretty well. He said you weren't just looking for color but force the smoke through the hide to preserve and water proof to some extent . :)
Pappy
-
Our Hill Country deer are just small. South Texas and farther north, a bit bigger.
Pappy, we simply tried the smoke house just to see. We started small and went bigger later. The hides get a more thorough smoking when you do the little tipi method. But we would have a bunch of little fires scattered about and it was a lot of work just to keep them going properly and prevent a flare up that burned the hides. The smoke house works very well. You gotta smoke them longer, but you have one fire with a dozen hides, so no biggie.
-
Bob, I love the color of those hides. :OK
-
I'm sorry I got so sidetracked on this project. I put ash boards I sawed from my dead ash trees on my Man Cave walls which I've been wanting to do for a long time. Turned out beautiful. I was just gonna get back to this project when a family emergency popped up. Now it's to close to planting season to tackle. I did get 3 hides brained and softened. 1 dehaired rawhide. 3 more dry on frames and ready to dehair. I'm kinda interested in the multiple smoke method slimbob. I know a guy with a really nice smokehouse that said I should use it. I was always thinking the smoke had to go through the hide to.
Thanks for all the information everyone. I learned a lot from this project.
Bjrogg
PS sure miss Ed. Hope he's ok
-
I've been missing his input too.
-
Ya I sent him a PM , but no response, hope all is well.
Pappy
-
You are quite the craftsman Brogg. Good on you.