Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: backtowood B2W on January 09, 2019, 12:52:21 am
-
This was a big Tree which has been cracked by a windstorm. It growed at )-w( 1400m SL, where I harvest my maple, beech, and ash.
I always wanted to try the beech too, but the littler ones have a lot of knots and the big ones are just to big )-w(
So i was very happy to find this splint. I just chopped it off the trunk and took it with me. This peace was already debarked, and quit dry - the trunk lay on the ground for about 4 month. So the stain comes from that. The last grow rings are very tight (8 rings per 1/4"). TTT 67".
I couldn't find any about beech for bows, so I wanted to give it a try as it feels dense too.
Roughed it out, - a Sudbury design matched best to the stave. The surface of the splint is still visible in the handle and inner limbs, will have to glue up a peace to the handle.
But before I keep on working on this I will wait what you guys think about...
Simk was already loughing at me and wished me good luck - he says beech is no good bowwood...
b2tw
some pics
-
I haven't tried beech, because I never heard from a beech bow. Beech has short fibers and so I am with simk.
-
Marc has successfully used Beech and I think he likes it a bit more than Ash.
-
I think that beech is an underrated wood. It is hard and heavy and have good elasticity. The people say that it is no good because of short fibers but I think that this can be solved with a backing. If you are going to use it just consider that it is prone to decay and to warp and check while drying. Ahhh, wear a dust mask because its dust can cause naseofarigeous cancer.
Let us know how it goes
-
Hey bttw
Thank you for shaking that dogma...and mistrust my advice 8)
As I already told you I'm really curious about your results - go for it and report!
Cheers
-
sorry simk I really consider your advice :o
thats why I'm asking - to get more infos about that wood.
thank you for helping me out, I think I will continue
maybe some advices about crossection? - I would go for a tapered shape - bellywards like the original Sudbury
i also guess there is a big diffrence between american and european beech
-
If it is fagus sylvatica and it was on the ground for 4 month ... you don't stand a chance.
Fagus sylvatica isn't a bow wood at all, even if it is freshly havested.
But give it a try and report.
-
@backtothewood
of course, there is a diffrence between american an european beech. But there is no diffrence between fagus sylvatica and fagus sylvatica, that is called red beech in Germany. We also have hopbeech and white beech and this sorts of beech can be excellent bow woods - you call them hophornbeam or hornbeam... (Ostrya carpinifolia or Carpinus betulus (european) / carpinus caroliniana is the wood you call ironwood....)
-
Let's not complicate things by bringing in the hornbeams.
Interestingly a few of the American trees with a Eurasian counterpart show marginally greater strength in the Eurasian species. For others the opposite is true.
-
Years ago, I made one of about 40# which failed because I tried leaving the bark on for grins and giggles. The bark pulled away and the bow broke. I don't think it would have broken otherwise.
Do wear a mask when making sawdust.
Jawge
-
not to be misunderstood, beech is for me red beech (fagus sylvatica). And in my opinion that stuff is not good for a bow. May be with a backing??
-
Fagus sylvatica is European Beech and I can't speak to it, though Simson says it's not a good bow wood.
Fagus grandifolia, aka American Beech, on the other hand I can speak to. I consider it one of the better, if not one of the best "white woods." This is the species Marc likes. I have built a number of bows from it and all have taken very little set. It does particularly well with a thorough heat treating.
-
Ok, I see, thank you all for helping me out.
But, decision to keep on working or not, isn't easier.
Andrew, it is definitely red beech. There is another Spezies around called Hainbuche (carpinus betulus)
I think I will make it to a side project, so please be patient about the result.
Any suggestions which crosssection works best for this?
I will have to steam bend and twist first to get a bit more balanced side profile - should work well with steam, thinking about thonet chair which are made of this stuff too
-
you can steambend red beech easy. That depends on the short fibers.
Hainbuche will be the better wood for a bow.
-
it's mentioned as 8/10 on this site...
https://www.licorneargent.be/les-arcs/facture-experience/quel-bois/
-
Merci Ileroy for the link. Nice site. Yours?
bttw: according to this site your beech is slightly better in compression AND tension than black elder. Surprise surprise. Go for it and report please! Maybe remove the outer ring that has been exposed the weather.
cheers
-
it's mentioned as 8/10 on this site...
https://www.licorneargent.be/les-arcs/facture-experience/quel-bois/
.... and one of the "jury" hasn't build a bow of red beech...
-
AndrewS, it's in fact those numbers that i found interesting:
sambucus nigra
résistance a la flexion: 106N/mm2
resistance a la compression: 55N/mm2
fagus sylvatica
résistance a la flexion: 107N/mm2
résistance a la compression: 58Nmm2
It's also one of the most common trees at my place -maybe one should give it a try (-S
Cheers
-
Merci Ileroy for the link. Nice site. Yours?
no, not mine unfortunately, but I did have the pleasure of meeting them in person to have a look at their bows during one of their "campements" a few years back.
actually user "Dark Factor" is one of them
-
@simk
but the average values of tensile strength and compression strength do not say anything about the suitability as bow wood.
yew for example has a tensile strength of 104 N/mm2 and a compression strength of 55 N/mm2...
black locust: TS 140 N/mm2, CS 70 N/mm2
and both have long fibers....
red beech is also one of the most common woods in Germany and I like it for building furniture , for flooring or for heating my home 8)
-
Yup, that's a nice site, just I don't speak French....
What does 8 / 10 mean?
Removing the outer ring would be difficult, it's about 0,3 mm thick.
A backing ist the faster way I guess.
Anyway it would be a pity to remove or hide the natural stain of the back.
So my way would be to try a trapping towards the belly
B2TW
-
The points are a rating scale ...how the guys of the side assess the quality of the wood.
-
I have made a couple bows from what ever beech grows in Western Pa. Paul Comstock liked Beech as a bow wood. I have no idea what species he used. He said to make it wide, and long. Mine are 2 inches off the fades to three quarter of an inch at the tips.They are 64 inches long at 35 to 40 lbs.Both took better than 2 inches of set, but are fun to shoot. No backing on either bow.With more heat ,longer, and wider I would have had less.Yellow Birch is supposed to be some of the best Birch to make a bow.I just used what I had that grew local.
-
Sorry guys ,I thought we were talking about Birch . My mistake. No harm , no foul.
-
There are a lot of trees in the birch family that are top for bows:
Haselnut, hornbeam (carpinus caroliniana) for example.
-
Thank you Andrew, seems you know a lot about trees, wood and so on.
Hainbuche carpinus betulus belongs also to the birch family... I'm a bit confused now, thought beech is beech. :)
But anyway, I will give it a try, the stave lost still some moisture but it should be okay now...
-
Look at the details.
The trees are itimized in
Order: Fagales Fagales Fagales
Family: Fagaceae Betulaceae Betulaceae
Subfamily: Fagoideae Coryloideae
Genus: Fagus (beech) Betula (birch) Carpinus (hornbeam)
Species: Fagus sylvatica (red beech) Betula alleghaniensis (yellow birch) Carpinus betulus (european hornb./
Hainbuche)
Haselnut= Corylus avellana (species), order:Fagales, family:Betulaceae, subfamily:Coryloidae, genus:Corylus
-
Sometimes paying to much attention to the trees genealogy can lead you astray. Take the maples for instance. There are about 128 species some are good bow wood and some are crap. Birch and beech are a full step back in the family tree. Really the only way to tell if it's bow wood is to make a bow out of it.
-
the genealogy says nothing about the the quality as bow wood!
But you can see, that the common name like maple, birch, beech says nothing about the special tree.
-
Hi!
Short:
You can make a bow out of it but I would say its not worth it!
Long:
I had it above my oven because it still lost a lot of weight. Wasn’t that dry as I thought. The stave also twisted some more and gained reflexed to 1“.
First I reflexed and untwisted the worst in the outers and ended up with almost 3“.
Considering your thoughts I decided to back it. I used a very thin Nylon and carpenter glue and was able to stretch and wrap on the limbs the same time. I will never do cloth backings without my wife - 4 hands are very helpful doing this job!!!
Bracing it first time - almost all of the reflex pulled out like I have not seen on a bow before.
Normally I heat treat my reflexe but I was unsure how this wood will take it and also I wanted to make it somehow comparable with my maple Sudbury.
I made it the same length and was looking for draw weight around 45#,too.
Around 20-22“ the lower limb became quiet thin mid limb, because it leaves the handle more reflexed, and the upper a bit deflexed (there is a little knot). Therefor I made some corrections with dry heat.
At 45#@27“ i started shooting it in - worked a bit on string alignment by narrowing the tips and some more strokes on the upper. Not much was to do anymore and I consider this tillering job as one of my best so far.
I didn´t glue up the handle with another piece of wood and left the visible crack surface. Instead I wrapped a push up with cane.
The stain is blu-black ink and was some kind of experiment too.
I´m not so sure about the colors, it´s definitely different to my other bows.
How do you like my new logo ?
I think I have about 500 arrows through it increasing drawlenght slowly to 28“.
The Tiller haven’t change but now I get 43#@28“!
Stringfollow went up to 1 1/2“ which returns in a few hours!
This bow draws soo smooth - I just don’t know if this is maybe too smooth and a sign for hysteresis?
Heavy arrows (my dogwood shafts) are leaving the bow a way better than light ones. The handshock disappears also with that, but there is - hard to describe - a somehow sluggish feeling!?!
So i´m very happy, I found this stave and didn’t split a big tree into staves.
I will not make anymore bows with this wood.
It shoots nice but considering giving my best tillering job on a twisted one, I’m somehow disappointed by its performance.
Specs.
bh.: 5 3/4“
ntn : 65"
Max. W.: 1 11/16“
W. Tips: 3/8“
Symmetric
Crosssection: tapered towards the belly, Tips rectangular
What do you think? I know a twisted bow is hard to judge especially with fades leaving the handle in a different angle.
Thank you for your replies - I appreciate it!
B2W
-
more
-
more
-
I have tried beech with no really success, got lot of set and marginal performance. In my eyes no bowwood, maybe your high elevation is better - good luck!
As Andrew said try "Hainbuche" carpinus betulus - good stuff!
-
I agree simson, as long as there is some ash around I will just burn this kind of wood. (=)
-
B2W, Your craftsmanship is excellent.
-
Congrats to your nice bow.
Also, you have found the answer to your question ;)
-
Well I Like it!
-
Just had another look at your bow. Beautiful work, you should get your hands on osage!
-
beauty - timeless elegance. glad you tried. sure one always learn a lot by trying the impossible (-;
also like that stick for holding the bow - will copy that.
cheers
-
Thank you guys for the replies!
Simson did you recognize that somehow too smooth draw with red beech?
I was looking around my place but here I just didn't find Hainbuche - only as Hedge and big ones in parks. Hopefully I will get my Hands on OO soon! Or yew or elm or Cornus mas or ....
Honestly, I thought I won't make a bow from OO or wood I've to pay for, unless I can tiller a bow with recognizable, holding up reflex from a white wood. I think I reached this goal with the bow before this one....thank you for the compliment, this means a lot to me as I'm with sleek when it comes to your bows
Thank you simk, I was curios if maybe the higher sea level and rough winters makes the wood stronger...
-
Osage is one of the easiest wood species to make a bow of (at least I think so), so don't hesitate - you have the skills to do for sure.
In switzerland should be high elevation yew in premium quality also.
-
This is great looking bow! Your work is awesome. It looks like it was well worth experimenting with, although the wood may be sub par. I really like you finish.