Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Horn Bows => Topic started by: Mafort on February 08, 2019, 10:02:24 pm
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I saw the sheep horn bows in a few older books I was reading and was wondering if you could use gemsbok horns in the same fashion. Mainly what I mean by that is without a wooden core. Grove, butt splice them and then handle it with another piece of horn and then just sinew the back of it. Could this be done?
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Sure you can use other horns for that application as they are solid and enough thick & wide. That kind of bow could be made from water buffalo horn also. Its just that the originals were made from sheep horns, that's why it is a preferred.
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A big difference between the 2 is the horn thickness. Bighorn sheep have incredibly thick horns. Not sure if gemsbok have the same thickness. I feel like I’ve seen someone post a gemsbok no wood core bow here some years ago.
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Yes I've seen it done with just gemsbok horn but I'm not sure how he acquired thick enough horns. I have bought some gemsbok horns a while back and they only average 1/8th inch thick once they were worked down. Which is not thick enough for horn and sinew only bows. I've heard doll sheep horns work and can be a couple hundred dollars cheaper than big horn sheep horn but dont have enough experience with it to confirm.
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Dall sheep has the thickness but more twist than bighorn. More of the length of the horn has to be cut out to get a straight limb.
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Turns out what I thought were gemsbok horn was actually water buffalo. My buddy gave them to me processed and I was unable to tell the difference. Each horn is like 23.5” long. You guys think this would make a bow that goes with a 28” draw? I really need only 26” draw but I figure if it had 3 layers of deer sinew on the back it should be ok
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My 48" horn bow can pull 36". You should be fine.
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How thick is the horn?
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Bases are about 3/4 of an inch thick
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I lied about that measurement. I’ll have to look it back up and see. I have a buddy sending them to me so I don’t know how long it’ll be before I get the buffalo horn in. My grandpa out in Colorado sent me about 10 leg tendons from an elk and he did a good job carving them from the animal.
My 48" horn bow can pull 36". You should be fine.
This bow if everything pans out correctly should be around that length but it’ll be made of water buffalo horn. Should that be ok? Also as far as glue I don’t have the means to make hide glue like I’d like or sinew glue. I’ve read knox gelatin is a good substitute for it. Do I need to heat the glue like you would with hide glue or can I use some hot water and then sinew back as normal?
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I would not use gelatin for horn wood joint... but for sinew layer it can be used ...
Books with Masters of hornbows recommend ONLY fish/sinew (mix) glue for horn-wood glue joint and PROPER sizing (both parts) with thin solution of fish/sinew glue, at least (!!!) 20 layers of thin hot glue.
GENTLY Heat both parts (wood, horn) with heat gun before each sizing and wait to dry each layer !!!
Whole procedure of sizing took me couple of hours.
Then add additional fish/sinew/hide glue parts into melting pot and make THICK solution.
Then just one very thick layer of HOT fish/sinew/hide glue (I mixed all because run out of home made cat fish glue) and quickly press together and do fixing with rope-tencik or clamps.
After fixing GENTLY heat up all with heat gun and let dry one day ...
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This bow will be built like the sheep horn bows. No wood core. The horn is 23.6” long.
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By "gently" what do you mean? I'm thinking the idea is to remelt the glue so is that like warm to the touch or hot to the touch? Can you give me a better idea? Especially after wrapping it in rope it's going to take a bit of heat to get to the glue joint.
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I should add that the over all length will be about 48” give or take. I have two horns of the same length. A very rare find and one I’m thankful for.
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I just do not want to mess this bow up. Hopefully with any luck I’ll be using it in Colorado.
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gently ..... i mean that be careful and do not destroy (overheat) the glue if you are using heat gun -C-
By "gently" what do you mean? I'm thinking the idea is to remelt the glue so is that like warm to the touch or hot to the touch? Can you give me a better idea? Especially after wrapping it in rope it's going to take a bit of heat to get to the glue joint.
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I would not use gelatin for horn wood joint... but for sinew layer it can be used ...
Books with Masters of hornbows recommend ONLY fish/sinew (mix) glue for horn-wood glue joint and PROPER sizing (both parts) with thin solution of fish/sinew glue, at least (!!!) 20 layers of thin hot glue.
GENTLY Heat both parts (wood, horn) with heat gun before each sizing and wait to dry each layer !!!
Whole procedure of sizing took me couple of hours.
Then add additional fish/sinew/hide glue parts into melting pot and make THICK solution.
Then just one very thick layer of HOT fish/sinew/hide glue (I mixed all because run out of home made cat fish glue) and quickly press together and do fixing with rope-tencik or clamps.
After fixing GENTLY heat up all with heat gun and let dry one day ...
I've made all of my bows with hide glue. Some of those have self made sinew glue on the sinew backing, but they are the worst glue jobs... Making your own glue is not always so easy. We need to remember, horn-wood glueline is the ultimate test for your glue, stresses in sinew backing are nothing close to it. It mostly boils to that its so hard to get the glue stick in to the horn part.
Another thing about the glueing and sizing is, when laying the first layer of hide/sinew/gelatin glue on the horn or wood core, you need to heat up the pieces and use thin glue. This will make the surface suck up more glue into itself, cause with the extra heat glue will stay longer liquid and run down to those fibres. After this heating is not recommended, since it degrades the glue, making it more brittle and we dont want that. After laying out the layers, what ever amount it is (i've used with success 5 to 60 layers in total) you heat up the pieces gently and use really thick glue for the last layer. Please don't use heat gun, you can really fast destroy a lot of work, hot plate or oven in low temp will do. With a lot of work i mean, its best to lay out the layers over some time so the glue hardens between the layers, maybe in 3 hour intervals. Also i allways let the last layer cure for 24 hours.
Finally when gluin the parts together you want to use thick glue, so it will fill all the small cracks and miss match in the core, but also you want to have it not setting until the clamps are fixed on place - this is why we heat up the core and horn, again to keep the glue running. So you will have only two times when you heat up the core and horn. Adam Karpowicz goes to detail in his book about Turkish bows, so if you are interested, you really need that book.
In general you just want decent hot glue in every possible place and it staying in its place. Gelatin/gnox/hide glue will definitely do. If someone wants to go really deep in to hornbows, then maybe a isinglass glue will be a good option but i would prefer to first practice with something else than buying some glue that costs 50-100 euros for 1 bow.
Mafort: All these tips work for a wood-horn-sinew bows or horn-sinew bows. Just go for it!
Now looking back, the guy only asked do you need to have your glue hot and we started to ramble! :D Yes, have the glue hot! Hah.
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I would not use gelatin for horn wood joint... but for sinew layer it can be used ...
Books with Masters of hornbows recommend ONLY fish/sinew (mix) glue for horn-wood glue joint and PROPER sizing (both parts) with thin solution of fish/sinew glue, at least (!!!) 20 layers of thin hot glue.
GENTLY Heat both parts (wood, horn) with heat gun before each sizing and wait to dry each layer !!!
Whole procedure of sizing took me couple of hours.
Then add additional fish/sinew/hide glue parts into melting pot and make THICK solution.
Then just one very thick layer of HOT fish/sinew/hide glue (I mixed all because run out of home made cat fish glue) and quickly press together and do fixing with rope-tencik or clamps.
After fixing GENTLY heat up all with heat gun and let dry one day ...
I've made all of my bows with hide glue. Some of those have self made sinew glue on the sinew backing, but they are the worst glue jobs... Making your own glue is not always so easy. We need to remember, horn-wood glueline is the ultimate test for your glue, stresses in sinew backing are nothing close to it. It mostly boils to that its so hard to get the glue stick in to the horn part.
Another thing about the glueing and sizing is, when laying the first layer of hide/sinew/gelatin glue on the horn or wood core, you need to heat up the pieces and use thin glue. This will make the surface suck up more glue into itself, cause with the extra heat glue will stay longer liquid and run down to those fibres. After this heating is not recommended, since it degrades the glue, making it more brittle and we dont want that. After laying out the layers, what ever amount it is (i've used with success 5 to 60 layers in total) you heat up the pieces gently and use really thick glue for the last layer. Please don't use heat gun, you can really fast destroy a lot of work, hot plate or oven in low temp will do. With a lot of work i mean, its best to lay out the layers over some time so the glue hardens between the layers, maybe in 3 hour intervals. Also i allways let the last layer cure for 24 hours.
Finally when gluin the parts together you want to use thick glue, so it will fill all the small cracks and miss match in the core, but also you want to have it not setting until the clamps are fixed on place - this is why we heat up the core and horn, again to keep the glue running. So you will have only two times when you heat up the core and horn. Adam Karpowicz goes to detail in his book about Turkish bows, so if you are interested, you really need that book.
In general you just want decent hot glue in every possible place and it staying in its place. Gelatin/gnox/hide glue will definitely do. If someone wants to go really deep in to hornbows, then maybe a isinglass glue will be a good option but i would prefer to first practice with something else than buying some glue that costs 50-100 euros for 1 bow.
Mafort: All these tips work for a wood-horn-sinew bows or horn-sinew bows. Just go for it!
Now looking back, the guy only asked do you need to have your glue hot and we started to ramble! :D Yes, have the glue hot! Hah.
Don’t ever apologize. I want as much information as possible and you all rambling on about all this is giving me all this new info I gotta have more lol. That’s how I know the archery bug is sticking to me. I want everything you all can share and then some. If there’s a process that makes it easier or that makes it nicer please share it. I’ll never turn down info or say it’s wrong unless it’s some outrageous claim. You guys are really helping me out so keep it comin.
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How thick should that horn be? Because right now its reduced to .25”
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Well good, no prob.
Horn should be thicker i guess. I use .25" horn for my hornbows with wood core.
But at least you can get a light weight bow.
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I figure if my sinew backing with make up about half of the finished bows thickness I should end up pretty close to hunting weight
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I also kinda want to know how get it straighter. I’ve boiled it for 10 minutes and then tied between two boards but I don’t know if that did it