Primitive Archer

Main Discussion Area => Arrows => Topic started by: Philipp A on February 12, 2019, 09:30:54 pm

Title: Two feather fledged white ash arrow with obsidian point
Post by: Philipp A on February 12, 2019, 09:30:54 pm
Hi all,

Here is my latest venture. I used one of my white ash arrows I have made from scratch and hafted on an obsidian point made by Steve Allely. This time I tried two feather fledging using turkey tail feathers by leaving the tips of the feathers on. I have always wanted to do this because they are beautiful and I always thought it was a shame having to cut the tips off the tail feathers in order to make three feather fledging. It is a bit different from the traditional method for two feather fledging where one bends around the end of the feather first and sinew wraps it onto the arrow and then subsequently sinew wraps the front afterwards.

Let me know what you think of it. I am including both the google photo link for higher resolution of the pictures and more pics and include some of the pics in here with the posting.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/VrmQEcLR8HHvRMZp9

Here are the measurements for the arrow:

Length: tip to throat of nock 29.25"
Spine: 49
Thickness: 5/16”
Weight: 571 grains, including obsidian point @ 95 grains
FOC: 7.8%
Title: Re: Two feather fledged white ash arrow with obsidian point
Post by: Hawkdancer on February 12, 2019, 10:47:39 pm
Nice!  Quite a bit of twist on the fletch!  I'll have to try the tail feathers.  Do you think they would hold up to hunting?
Hawkdancer
Title: Re: Two feather fledged white ash arrow with obsidian point
Post by: JEB on February 13, 2019, 05:25:19 am
I would think that would be a noisy arrow with that fletch. Have you shot it yet?  Did you use the verita dowel maker to make the shafts? If so how did that work?
Title: Re: Two feather fledged white ash arrow with obsidian point
Post by: ohma2 on February 13, 2019, 08:06:47 am
Thats a good lookin arrow but i have to say thats a lot of feather .i havent used tail feather but i think they are softer than wing primary so maybe quiter.
Title: Re: Two feather fledged white ash arrow with obsidian point
Post by: Philipp A on February 13, 2019, 09:45:36 am
Hi all,

thanks for the feedback, I will try to answer all the questions:

1) Ohma2 : I have left on purpose enough width on the feather because as you know you can always cut off more but can't put it back. I will produce another arrow with the same two fledge design but with the difference of mounting a field point so I can comfortably shoot it without having to worry of busting the gorgeous obsidian point made by Steve Allely. I do suspect that with the tips of the tail feathers still intact the arrow should not be too noisy because they are free to move and hopefully will dampen any vortices generated.

2) JEB: as answered above I have not yet shot the arrow and wanted to make an equivalent with a field point first before I shoot it with the obsidian point. I do use the Veritas down maker for making the shafts and it worked really well. The table that listed the adjustments for the sizing of the dowels did for some reason not work for me and I had to make a few adjustments beyond the listed settings until I had the arrow size I was after. I have settled on the 5/16 size. If I can maintain a consistent spine on the arrows I think they will be fast and hard hitting. I had a bit of trouble controlling the speed of the feed through the dowel maker and on a few of them when I tried to slow down the feed it pulled the arrow off the socket supplied for the drill to drive the dowel. I then settled to just let the dowel maker determine the speed of the feed and not try to slow it down and the arrows turned out pretty consistently thereafter. I would be happy from others that are using it for any feedback on how to better control the speed.

I have shot my three feather fledged white ash arrows made with the tool and they performed just as well in comparison to my purchased arrow blanks. I actually achieved a bit more distance and had a nice smooth release without wobble. 

3) Hawkdancer: the twist is exactly the way it is shown in the Encyclopedia of Native American Bows, Arrows & Quivers (Volume 1) written by Steve Allely and Jim Hamm except I don't have as wide a gap to the shaft in the midsection of the fledging. A good example of it is on page 50 where it depicts a Seneca hardwood shaft with hawk tail feathers. On page 92 it also shows similar fledging with a turkey tail feather but in that case there is a wider gap to the shaft from each side of the feather mounted on the shaft. It will be interesting to see what impact that has on the aerodynamic behaviour of the arrow. I have mounted it a bit differently for the reasons listed in my post (I wanted to preserve the tips of the turkey feathers) but the twist is the same.
Title: Re: Two feather fledged white ash arrow with obsidian point
Post by: Philipp A on February 13, 2019, 12:03:36 pm
Hawkdancer: I forgot to answer your question about whether I think the arrow would hold up to hunting. I am pretty confident that it will (other than potential damage to the obsidian point). While the fledging is not spiral wrapped when reviewing literature on what Native American tribes have used, the two fledged solution held only with sinew wrapping in the front and back seemed to be pretty dominant. I acknowledge that my sinew wrap at a single point on the back of the fledging might be a bit more fragile, but I don't think there is a lot of mechanical force or rubbing at that point since it will clear the bow and not rub against it when the arrow passes (see nock position).

I will know more once I have made another arrow with the same fledge design but with a field point I can then put to the test verses traditionally three feather fledged arrows.

Stay tuned, I will let you know once I have made the additional arrow and have the results....
Title: Re: Two feather fledged white ash arrow with obsidian point
Post by: Brotherhood Bows on February 13, 2019, 12:37:37 pm
Hey Phillip!

What a beautiful set of arrows you have there, any plans to do heavy duty 1/2" Warbow arrows in that gorgeous colouring and fletching style? I would love to see a set for some bigger draw weights.

-Ben
Title: Re: Two feather fledged white ash arrow with obsidian point
Post by: Pat B on February 13, 2019, 01:33:41 pm
Cherokee 2 fletch is one of my favorites. Nice looking arrows.  :OK
Title: Re: Two feather fledged white ash arrow with obsidian point
Post by: Philipp A on February 13, 2019, 01:47:45 pm
Thanks Ben, with my Veritas dowel maker I can vary the size of the arrow it makes. Other than white ash I have beautiful straight yellow birch logs and also HHB logs. I expect it will be somewhat difficult to get HHB arrows made with the dowel maker but I will nevertheless also give it a try. Due to the weight and strength of HHB (and the other hardwoods) I am not sure whether I would want to go to 1/2" for war bow arrows since this would have the effect of dramatically reducing my FOC percentage (the weight of the wood significantly reduces the impact of the obsidian point to assist in FOC). I think if I go to 11/32" for arrow size it would sufficiently increase the spine number for the higher draw weight of a war bow. I think I would have to add at least a 125 grains point to get to an acceptable FOC percentage

What draw weight do you have on your war bow?
Title: Re: Two feather fledged white ash arrow with obsidian point
Post by: Philipp A on February 13, 2019, 01:57:18 pm
Thanks Pat!

I have a question for you if you have made a bunch of two fletched arrows. How does the flight compare to the three feather fletched arrows? Does the gap to the shaft have any impact on the performance?

I love the looks of it but still need to make a field tipped version of it to test the performance (I am protective of my Steve Allely obsidian points....the only way I would sacrifice one is to put a deer in my freezer   :D )

To be honest what prompted me to try it is the beauty of the turkey tail feather with the tip intact and browsing through the Encyclopedia of Native American Bows, Arrows & Quivers....I think it will take me a lifetime to try out all the arrows and bows depicted in the book!
Title: Re: Two feather fledged white ash arrow with obsidian point
Post by: Pat B on February 13, 2019, 04:10:33 pm
You can make 2 fletch fly as well as any other fletching style. One way to get the quill to lay flatter(well, 2 ways) is first to hydrate the feathers which will soften the quill, tie them to the shaft and when it dries it will hold it's shape. The other way is to lay the feathers with the outside of the feather against the shaft, opposite to the way you have them. The colors aren't quite as vibrant but it is a trade off. You can play with the shape of the fletching also to "fine tune" it to your liking and help reduce noise. The last few I've made I shape the fletching with my feather burner to a specific shape which in similar to my 3 fletch shape.
Title: Re: Two feather fledged white ash arrow with obsidian point
Post by: Philipp A on February 13, 2019, 04:16:12 pm
Thanks Pat great advice! Can you post some pictures of the ones you made so I have an idea how they look?
Title: Re: Two feather fledged white ash arrow with obsidian point
Post by: mullet on February 13, 2019, 07:03:26 pm
That is a very nice arrow. I've made them with the tight twist you did with this one and they are very noisy unless you trim the fletching very short. Now I just make the traditional look, must be a reason they stuck to that style when eating depended on a good shot.
Title: Re: Two feather fledged white ash arrow with obsidian point
Post by: Philipp A on February 13, 2019, 07:52:23 pm
Thanks mullet, your feedback is much appreciated! So I properly understand your comment, did you make your arrows with the air gap between the arrow and the feather or just less of a twist?
Title: Re: Two feather fledged white ash arrow with obsidian point
Post by: TSA on February 14, 2019, 08:39:47 am
beautiful arrows and craftsmanship  :OK
like Pat, i too love the two fletch. they are a great arrow- that uses fletching that otherwise might not get used.
great pointers by Pat there- i am going to try hydrating the fletches and applying them "inside out" next time.
Title: Re: Two feather fledged white ash arrow with obsidian point
Post by: Philipp A on February 15, 2019, 09:42:04 pm
Thanks Wayne and thanks for all your advice on how to split the logs all the way to how to use my Veritas dowel maker, it is much appreciated!

I have today finished my second white ash arrow with the twin fledge design, but this time instead of the obsidian point I have added a 125 grain 5/16" field point. As soon as I had it finished, I took it out to the barn and shot the twin fledge arrow and compared its flight and noise to my 3 fledge standard arrow. The result was very encouraging!

The twin fledged arrow was noticeably quieter than the 3 fledge arrow and I am suspecting that having the tip of the turkey tail feather intact and allowing it to move for the last 1.5 inches might have the effect of shedding vortices and dampening the noise. I had to turn my hay round bale to the side since I had to dig out my 2 fledge arrow out of the bale because it buried itself all the way to the nock. My 3 fledge design did not penetrate as far. Shooting at the round bale from the side with the netting the twin fledge white ash arrow still penetrated the bale approximately 4" deeper than the 3 fledged arrow. This could be partially also due to the smaller diameter of the arrow but it definitely was hitting harder than my other arrow.

My 3 fledge arrow I compared the twin fledge to is ~ 1.25 inch longer (29.25" throat of nock to tip), is 11/32 Douglas Fir with a spine of 52# and weighing 509 grain with a 125 grain field point

The new twin fledge arrow is 28" throat of nock to tip, 5/16" with a spine of 51# and weighing in at 571 grain (125 grain field point)

I am definitely happy with this white ash two fledge turkey tail feather design. Everything on it except for the paint, the sinew and field tip is "homegrown" out of my bush. In addition I am now able to get substantially more fledging out of the turkeys my son and his friends shoot in my bush, I call that a win win  :D
Title: Re: Two feather fledged white ash arrow with obsidian point
Post by: TSA on February 16, 2019, 12:46:54 am
you are most welcome Phillip :OK
i have been inspired by your style of two fletch. i think i will be trying that the next time i get a minute to fletch up some new shafts.
up until now i have only done the "south eastern two fletch"

please keep me posted as you work your way through your " book of projects" :BB
Title: Re: Two feather fledged white ash arrow with obsidian point
Post by: DC on February 16, 2019, 10:13:14 am
Those are beautiful arrows! Great job! :D :D
Title: Re: Two feather fledged white ash arrow with obsidian point
Post by: Hawkdancer on February 16, 2019, 11:50:08 am
Pat,
Do you hydrate the feathers by just wetting the quill to soften it, or is it more of a soaking?

Phillip,
Can't wait to see the whole set!  I plan to use the 2 fletch on the set I am making for my land owner who lets me cut/gather from her place.  I like the loose tip idea!  Hope I saved the tail feathers from our fall birds!
Hawkdancer
Title: Re: Two feather fledged white ash arrow with obsidian point
Post by: DC on February 16, 2019, 12:24:38 pm
You can straighten feathers with an iron if that would help. Just use the tip of the iron on the "cotton" setting. Don't know what would happen if they got wet after straightening them though. Just do a Google search on "straightening feathers".
Title: Re: Two feather fledged white ash arrow with obsidian point
Post by: Brotherhood Bows on February 21, 2019, 10:56:11 am
Your knowledge of fletching and arrows is awesome! I have yet to really get stuck into fletching, FOC and grain. I shoot with an albeit wonky 120lbs @32",  78" yew warbow. It was my first try at making one so getting used to heavier arrows has been a good learning curve.

Seeing your magnificent 2 fletch and obsidian head made me dream of shooting beaut arrows to match the frankly frightful power of this new bow.

Keep up the amazing work!
Title: Re: Two feather fledged white ash arrow with obsidian point
Post by: Philipp A on February 21, 2019, 01:07:54 pm
Thanks Ben for your feedback! I certainly would not want to call myself an expert, I just like studying things once I get involved in something and love tinkering. I like for the resulting work to be both functional and nice to look at. Making the arrows has proven to be as much or even more fun than making bows for myself, especially once I was able to make the arrows from trees harvested in my own bush.

The one thing I should mention is that I still plan to sinew wrap below the nock in order to prevent splitting of the arrow. I think this will be especially important when shooting a powerful bow like the one you have made. I have seen a lot of native hardwood arrows depicted in literature that are not sinew wrapped at the nock, but they were mostly made from split hickory and I was informed by Carson Brown that hickory is much less susceptible to splitting, so I definitely want to take him up on his advice to still sinew wrap them at the nock.

Quite frankly, while I realize it is as much technique as pure strength, all I can handle is about a 75# bow, so I admire you for being able to handle a 120# bow!

Have you measured the speed of your arrows shot with your war bow? What thickness arrow do you shoot with it now and how long are your arrows you are using? It looks like you have long arms at a draw length of 32", so you would need an exceptionally high spine weight for your arrows. What spine are you using?

Thanks for your interest,

Phil