Primitive Archer

Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: paulc on February 17, 2019, 01:00:24 pm

Title: What next?
Post by: paulc on February 17, 2019, 01:00:24 pm
the pics are of the hickory I have posted about in the past-I was finally able to get back to it for a bit this afternoon.  I threw caution to the wind and used the harshest sandpaper I have on hand:-)  And now it is bending on the tree.  Right now it seems to be around 60lbs although I am not 100% sure of the scale...but it is bending and of course I want to come in a bit heavy not a bit light.  I'd like something between 50lb and 60lb when all is done.  So tell me what is next, where should I be removing wood from now?  I know the handle needs a bunch more work shaping but that shouldn't really effect draw weight; I might try sanding the back a tiny bit just to clean it up before putting on a finish.  I thought I might also try to round the tips a bit so they are less clunky. 

Anyway, thoughts and advice would be really appreciated!  Paul C
Title: Re: What next?
Post by: SLIMBOB on February 17, 2019, 01:28:38 pm
Looks to me that you need to get it bending more right out of the fades.
Title: Re: What next?
Post by: Pat B on February 17, 2019, 01:30:23 pm
...and mid limb on the left limb is a bit stiff too.
Title: Re: What next?
Post by: SLIMBOB on February 17, 2019, 01:42:34 pm
Agree with Pat B...Also, the left limb may be a bit stiffer than the right.  Fixing the mid limb on the left might bring them together a little tighter.
Title: Re: What next?
Post by: paulc on February 17, 2019, 01:50:26 pm
THanks!
Title: Re: What next?
Post by: jeffp51 on February 17, 2019, 07:22:09 pm
looks to me like it is time to get a shorter string on it.  With that much bend you should be at low brace I would think, and it looks like you still have a long (untensioned) string on it.
Title: Re: What next?
Post by: bjrogg on February 18, 2019, 12:43:43 am
looks to me like it is time to get a shorter string on it.  With that much bend you should be at low brace I would think, and it looks like you still have a long (untensioned) string on it.

I agree. I'd try getting it braced with shorter string. Looks like your bending to about brace height now. A short string will pull the tips in more.
Bjrogg
Title: Re: What next?
Post by: paulc on February 18, 2019, 02:21:57 am
How do I know how long a string to make? I could put it back on the tree and measure tip to tip...?
Paul
Title: Re: What next?
Post by: SLIMBOB on February 18, 2019, 03:14:07 am
You can put a knot in one end of the string and adjust the length.
Title: Re: What next?
Post by: bjrogg on February 18, 2019, 03:18:17 am
Paul usually for my actual string I put one loop on tip and make string about four maybe five inches short of other tip. I usually error the the long side. You can put twist in string to make it shorter if you need to and it's really hard to come out perfect. If you use fast flight it won't stretch much but B-50 can be frustrating. You make string short enough that you can barely get Bow strung and then it stretches out. This can happen several times till you get the stretch out of it. You may want it a bit long yet anyway but I'd like to see it at a low brace now. Braceing the recurves can be a bit tricky till you get used to it. In all honesty braceing bow is one of the scariest things to me. If done in correctly it can be dangerous for bow and or person braceing it. Make sure you spread out the stresses evenly when braceing. I originally used step through method. I can still string a heavier bow easier with this method but it's very important to do it properly. My buddy broke the first bow I made him because he didn't have his step through leg on handle. It was 1/3 of way down lower limb and he was heartbroken when his beautiful bow made a very ugly noise. Was no fixing that one. I use push pull method now and always show and make each person I give a bow how to string it. They usually struggle at first but then slowly get the hang of it. Most have never strung a bow in their lives before.
Good Luck, I don't mean to scare you. Just trying to give you a little heads up.
Bjrogg
Title: Re: What next?
Post by: George Tsoukalas on February 18, 2019, 03:46:51 am
I agree with slim bob and Pat B. Pretty much. What are the dimensions of the stave non and what is your draw length? Jawge
Title: Re: What next?
Post by: DC on February 18, 2019, 04:59:48 am
I put one of these removable links in my long string. Then I can keep shortening the string until it's about the right length and then make a final string.
Title: Re: What next?
Post by: paulc on February 18, 2019, 01:50:59 pm
Honestly not sure how to measure draw length...the arrows I shoot out of my purchased bow are 31” knock to tip. But I know that’s not draw length...probably 28” draw...maybe 29”. I’m an average 6’1” guy if that helps. The hickory bow is 68” tip to tip, limbs are a heavy 1.5” at the fades tapering to .75” at the tips.  Handle is probably 5” when the fade starts so actual not bending area is more like 8 or 9” total...

Moving forward get left limb mid limb bending more and get both limbs working more in the fades...? Have I got that right?

Thanks, Paul
Title: Re: What next?
Post by: SLIMBOB on February 19, 2019, 03:31:02 am
From the pic, yes.  Loosen it up a bit left mid limb.  Get both working right out of the handle more.  Get both limbs even at brace, or very close.  You can measure from the belly to the string at intervals and check both sides to see that they are close.  Ex:  measure just out of the fades left and right.  Mid limb.  Etc.  One caution.  That pic is a 2 dimensional representation from only one side.  If there are inconsistencies in the limb, like some prop twist as an example, it could tell a completely different story from another angle.  Fixing it based on one side view only will make the other worse in these cases.  Make sure the profile is close to the same from both sides.  Otherwise you will fix one problem only to worsen another.
Title: Re: What next?
Post by: paulc on February 19, 2019, 04:21:05 am
Definitely a bit of wonk in the stave so I will be sure to check it from both sides.

THANKS!  Paul
Title: Re: What next?
Post by: jeffp51 on February 19, 2019, 08:46:23 am
How do I know how long a string to make? I could put it back on the tree and measure tip to tip...?
Paul

Learn how to tie a bowyer's knot  (timber hitch).  Then you can adjust one end as you tiller.  once you get to full brace, measure the length and then make a nice string for the actual bow
Title: Re: What next?
Post by: paulc on March 09, 2019, 09:44:06 am
I'm finally able to get back this.  I've done a bunch more sanding, really really struggled to brace bow and it was way out of balance. And string was too short. i think I see a stiff portion in right limb, fade to about mid-limb..

Anyone agree? Other issues?

Thanks, Paul
Title: Re: What next?
Post by: Woodely on March 09, 2019, 09:46:41 am
"i think I see a stiff portion in right limb, fade to about mid-limb.."    Its kind of flat in that area.
Title: Re: What next?
Post by: paulc on March 09, 2019, 11:37:29 am
Today's stopping point. I can just barely draw the bow so hopefully that means it's at least 65lbs...so room for more work to be done. Tell me what you see.

Thanks, Paul
Title: Re: What next?
Post by: SLIMBOB on March 09, 2019, 12:17:07 pm
Appears to me you have something out of wack. Take a ruler and measure from belly to string just outside of the fade. Do the same at the exact spot on the other limb. The two measurements should be close. Within an eight inch or so. Move out 2 inches and take another measurement. Both Limbs at the same spot along the limb. Again, it should be close. I don’t think yours will be. One limb appears to start bending earlier than the other. If I’m wrong just disregard, but if I’m right, you’ll need to fix that.  To do that I would take a 4 inch straight edge and run it along the belly while drawn, and note the gap. It should show little or no gap at the fade and then open up a bit as you move down the limb, closing back up as you reach your recurves. Any stuff spots will be flat with little daylight. Now compare what you just saw to the other limb. They should be very close to mirroring one another. Scrape the flat spots until your gap is even on one limb. Again measure the string just as before and see if that gets it closer.
Edit. You don’t need to draw one this far if there is a problem. Ease up and take your measurements. Once you have fixed it then you can draw it further.
Title: Re: What next?
Post by: paulc on March 09, 2019, 12:38:15 pm
I can def see some oddness in the pics...I could “improve” the tiller by adjusting where the handle was sitting on the rest.  How does everyone deal w wonky shaped handles? Do you get the handle close before going to tiller tree.
Title: Re: What next?
Post by: SLIMBOB on March 09, 2019, 12:42:11 pm
Me, yes. I want it to set in the cradle evenly so I get a true reading on it. I want the string drawn where I will be drawing it with my fingers. Same spot.
Title: Really need HELP!!
Post by: paulc on March 24, 2019, 06:17:18 am
Here is where I ended work on this bow yesterday...I did like y'all said and measured the distance from string to bow belly while braced.  And the limb that appears to be bending the most is the one that needs more material taken off the belly to get the numbers to more closely line up.  Granted they are not off too much, maybe 3/8" an inch at the worst part but...Anyway near as I can tell the limb that bends the most is the one that is seems to need more material taken off so that the distance comes more into line with the stiff limb.  So I don't know what to do next.  And of course I ended the work day with discovering a splinter on the back of the bow.  I am guessing saturate it with super glue?  Maybe followed by a sanding?  Or skip the sanding?  Bury it under some sinew?

Bow is pulling about 55lbs.  Which is plenty heavy for me but I am also tempted to heat treat the belly just for the experience...

HELP!!!!  :-)  Paul
Title: Re: What next?
Post by: Woodely on March 24, 2019, 06:28:13 am
That right limb does not look right.  Seems like its hinging in the fade and not bending much mid limb.   A far as arrows go I always make mine 30" for my 28" draw.  I like to have 2" in front of the handle for aiming
Title: Re: What next?
Post by: DC on March 24, 2019, 06:32:28 am
I'm looking at the two FD pictures. I just did some rough measuring off my screen and in the top one you don't have the hook centered and in the bottom one you do. That will make a difference in the way it looks. What is the difference you are pointing out in the two pictures?
Title: Re: What next?
Post by: SLIMBOB on March 24, 2019, 06:47:39 am
More than that going on. My first question is about how level it is in the cradle.  It appears as though it's not.  Looks to me as though it's running down hill from left to right.  I would want it level in order to get a true reading on the tiller.  Getting it level will change things up a bit.  From there you can better make a determination what needs to be done.
Cross posted with DC but I think we are seeing the same thing.
Title: Re: What next?
Post by: Woodely on March 24, 2019, 08:30:25 am
Go into the house where you have a large mirror and do the mirror draw.  Those mid limbs are not bending much, maybe its to late now.
Title: Re: What next?
Post by: paulc on March 24, 2019, 10:55:13 am
Dealing w th splinter should come before correcting the tiller?  Paul
Title: Re: What next?
Post by: scp on March 25, 2019, 06:23:39 am
Dealing w th splinter should come before correcting the tiller?  Paul
Definitely. I am not even sure the bow will survive at all. I would stop bending it so much before I balance the limbs and make sure that they are bending evenly. Make the "tillering gizmo" and use it a lot. Don't forget the long even strokes with scrapers or sand papers.
Title: Not giving up yet
Post by: paulc on March 29, 2019, 02:45:48 am
I got back to this last night...I checked the cradle and it is level.  I measured the handle and the left side is perhaps an 1/8" thicker than right side.  But there is also a proud spot on handle due to a knot that travels through the handle.  Either way the bow is shimmed in this photo so that the handle appears level.  I measured the vertical lines-string to bow belly on the left and the right.  First line from handle on left the bow is within a 1/4" of right side, maybe 3/16ths.  So I think I need to work fade to somewhere around that first line-or a bit beyond that first line right? That would bring the measurements at first line on left and right more in balance.  Is it likely that will allow the rest of the left limb to drop more and more closely match the right limb?  I don't have much wood to remove in this area but I guess it could have a big impact out to where the tip falls?  The tips are out of balance over an inch.

Should the right limb have been worked more in the mid-limb and tip so that the fade area was working less?

Thanks for your help!  P
Title: Re: What next?
Post by: DC on March 29, 2019, 03:14:50 am
Just fiddling around with Gimp. Second picture I just levelled it out. That shows the stiff fade area a lot better. First picture is a flipped overlay so you can compare limbs. Looks to me all that has to be done is get the left fade area bending more.
PS I accidentally flipped the picture. :-[ :-[ It should be good now. I've got more to learn about Gimp
Title: Re: What next?
Post by: SLIMBOB on March 29, 2019, 03:33:21 am
To the last question....maybe yes.  Can you post an unbraced profile pic..  In the bigger picture, you want...or I should say I want, the limb to work right out of the fade on most.  Longer bows with parallel inner limbs being the exception.  I think you want this one working right out of the fades.  Ballance appears to be the issue here to me.  Get the left inner limb loosened up a bit.  That will ease up some bend on the right.  Then see what you have.  It looks more level now than before in the cradle.  I want to see that the profile unbraced is straight, I believe it is.  If so, left inner first.  Just a little.  As it bends more, the right will bend less.  Then the right midlimb.  I will say again, the straight edge here is your friend and will make quick work of where your issues are.
Edit...just looked at the picture of it on the table, so straight profile.  That would confirm the above advice for me.
Title: Re: What next?
Post by: TimBo on March 29, 2019, 08:23:00 am
Hey DC, did you maybe reverse that first photo?  I think you have the original left limb on the right. 
Title: Re: What next?
Post by: DC on March 29, 2019, 08:57:52 am
I guess I did :-[ :-[ I'll fix it.
Fixed. I hope that doesn't just confuse things more. Sorry about that.
Title: Re: What next?
Post by: bjrogg on March 29, 2019, 09:14:26 am
Paul I agree with DC. The last picture you posted, the first couple inches out of fade on left limb aren't moving. Go carefully until they are moving like the right. As for the lifted splinter, I've never used hickory, but have heard it pretty forgiving in tension. I'd probably be nervous with any of the woods I've used but nobody else seems very concerned about this one. Where is it? My guess would be right limb where it's bending the most coming out of fade. Getting a little more bend just past that spot might help take some tension off it. I'd agree with slimbob that mid limb right limb could be slightly stiff.
Bjrogg
Title: I feel like I am chasing my tail.....
Post by: paulc on April 06, 2019, 11:56:49 am
So I got back to this hickory bow today and for a while I super excited cause I was "fixing it"  Now I am not so sure-it is better I think but the numbers when the bow is drawn do not line up.  They are right on the money closest to the handle, guess that is obvious but they get out of wack as I go out the limbs.  Now the bow is pulling perhaps 50lbs and I don't feel like I am getting the numbers closer.  I've been using the tillering gizmo and my sqaure/straight edge and it has helped A LOT but maybe I should stop?  The bend I think is pretty consistent out of the handles and stays okay until that last 4-6" where it begins to flatten out before the bend in the tips.  I decided I probably wanted the limb to stop working at I approached the tips?  I did the tillering gizmo until the pencil no longer touched except that last 6" or so then I moved the pencil up so it was closer to the belly-at the handle/fades area- then took more wood off where the pencil touched the limbs. 

Also a pic of the back-not sure if you can see the wave in it but it is NOT even from tip to tip.  It is the natural back directly under the bark so it is not consistent.  Maybe that is throwing my efforts off?

Anyway, do I keep going or call it done?  It throws an arrow real nicely so I am pretty happy on that score.

Thoughts?

And if you can post a pic of the cradle on you tree-I am currently using debitage from my knapping to level this particular bow even though the cradle is level...I think a better cradle would help my efforts.

Thanks so much for the help!  Already dreaming of my other hickory bow that is about 1/2 done...

Paul
Title: Re: What next?
Post by: DC on April 06, 2019, 12:31:06 pm
Left limb is the bottom? Can you get someone to take a full draw picture? I think the left limb is still a tad stiff right at the fade but If it looks good in a FD picture I'd call it good. You've fretted over this too long ;D
Title: Re: What next?
Post by: SLIMBOB on April 06, 2019, 12:42:30 pm
That looks a lot better.  Sometimes you just gotta say I'm done.  If you don't, you end up with a 35 lb bow trying to perfect it.  The left looks like it starts bending later than the right, but if you like it, you make the call.  It looks way better than before.  Im working on one right now, just about finished with it, that will never be perfect looking.  The limbs leave the handle at different angles and it throws everything a little off.  I called it good and that's it.  It's mine and I like it like it is.
Title: Re: What next?
Post by: scp on April 07, 2019, 07:05:39 am
I have never seen a perfectly straight tree so far. It sure looks perfect enough for me, so long as the back splinter is holding at 50 pound full draw. I would finish the back or even back it with something light like linen as soon as possible.
Title: Re: What next?
Post by: paulc on April 28, 2019, 12:35:44 pm
So here my hickory bow after about 150-200 shots thru it.  Still staying together, shoot well if I do my part.  Not a rocket launcher but it will kill.  So I think i can move forward with trying to finish it.  First pic is of the splinter on the back, shiny stuff is of course the super glue I used on it.  Do I dare sand off the glue before I finish it?  I want to use a couple coats of BLO to finish the bow.

And the string is laying funny on one end.  See the two pics...I just cut the shoulder a bit deeper to get the string to lay on the shoulder better?

A pic of the sting lay just because...made picking top limb pretty easy.

I am thinking I want to in-law a piece of local cedar as an arrow pass-just a little accent color I guess and it sounds interesting in my head.  How bad an idea is it to be cutting grain at the handle?  This isn't a bendy handle bow (not that I really know why I can say that) but if it is bendy handle I didn't mean for it to be bendy handle. How deep could I do the inlaw?  1/4" too much?  Should I do something like 1/8" deep?

Thanks as always!  Paul
Title: Re: What next?
Post by: TimBo on April 28, 2019, 02:24:10 pm
I would make the string grooves a bit deeper and the loops smaller.
Title: Re: What next?
Post by: bjrogg on April 28, 2019, 04:13:41 pm
I like it Paul. It looks much better now and if you like how it shoots I'd probably leave it alone as far as tillering goes. Would be nice to see a hand held full draw. They often look different than on the tree.
 
I'd cut the notches deeper or put on a overlay. Maybe even narrow em up just a tad but I'd for sure try to get string loops smaller.
 
You did really good. Can't wait to see your next one.
Bjrogg
Title: Re: What next?
Post by: paulc on April 28, 2019, 05:36:35 pm
Thanks for everyone's help w this. I have another hickory already partway and I've a hackberry stave next in line.

Paul
Title: Re: What next?-FINISHED!!?
Post by: paulc on May 16, 2019, 02:04:04 pm
So I think I can call this bow officially finished and a bow!  It is just shy of 70" in a straight line; pulls right at 50lbs at 28".  I won't list everything I know is wrong with it...It is my first actual bow and it throws arrows like it is supposed to.  I did find cracks in the back when I took the air compressor to it this morning-I filled those with CA and sanded once dried.  I will just keep an eye on them...simple wood stain finished underneath several coats of BLO.

Any feedback would be welcome.  Paul C
Title: Re: What next?
Post by: paulc on May 16, 2019, 02:05:15 pm
more pics
Title: Re: What next?
Post by: paulc on May 16, 2019, 02:06:55 pm
Last pics- I tried to be all artsy like some of y'all but I just don't have that gene...
Title: Re: What next?
Post by: SLIMBOB on May 16, 2019, 03:10:58 pm
Good job Paul. Now you can start another and parlay what you learned into the new one.
Title: Re: What next?
Post by: Parnell on May 17, 2019, 08:31:08 am
Way to go, Paul.  Congratulations.  What will you try next?
Title: Re: What next?
Post by: paulc on May 18, 2019, 09:26:46 am
I've another hickory stave w about 8" of tip movement, but it didn't bend evenly the 1 time i tried to string it...I'll get pics up next time I can work on it. I've also got hackberry to Denmark and some crepe myrtle to play w.

Paul