Primitive Archer

Main Discussion Area => English Warbow => Topic started by: peacefullymadewarbows on February 24, 2019, 09:56:14 pm

Title: ERC and MR almost replica Yew bows
Post by: peacefullymadewarbows on February 24, 2019, 09:56:14 pm
ERC - 105 @ 31" 83" ntn
Yew - 109 @ 31" 72" ntn Both probably settle 2-4 lbs after a couple dozen arrows but that's what the scale said. I'll try to keep the storytelling short as there are already posts about these both. The yew is nearly a Replica of the shortest MR bow found on the ship with two exceptions. It is one inch longer than the original. I did this because I wanted it to make it to y 31" draw. And I didn't reduce the sapwood to 3-5mm thick like the MR bows had. This was because of the pictured second growth boundary. I was fearful this would pop. But it held and left a stunning visual result in the bow. Otherwise, the thickness and width dimensions are exactly to the original bow and the cross-section is a gallion/squashed rectangle. Bit surprised at how elliptical the tiller was from these dimensions. Has almost no hand shock. Probably my new fave to shoot and to look at except maybe the ERC.  ERC was the charm of three tries from the same tree. I arrived at needing a very cirular tiller and plenty of length as expected. The length plus less than 1" string follow lends it for a smooth draw and some zippy arrows. Ok I talked too much. Here's a bunch of pics.
(https://i.imgur.com/s80jd6B.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/aFXnlFs.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/16AI8Fe.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/2V0eejt.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/FzyOfgE.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/ieY2t5X.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/xkTrMlI.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/44JnI04.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/8EFKq6F.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/csEZxyk.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/cZtPPwI.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/rgwXIef.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/myA35A5.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/wvfCn7u.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/wca1kFz.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/eDn5HFa.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/QKnkeEE.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/PqCTtN9.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/NGMBExr.jpg)
Title: Re: ERC and MR almost replica Yew bows
Post by: Del the cat on February 25, 2019, 12:47:06 am
Great looking bows... I'm glad you didn't take my advice and split/glue that second growth boundary. ;D
Del
PS. On that last pics, the horn nocks look to be fitted with the curve in an unconventional direction. Any reason?
Title: Re: ERC and MR almost replica Yew bows
Post by: mullet on February 25, 2019, 05:10:44 am
Very nice bows.

But don't you know that you can't make bows out of ERC? ;D ;)
Title: Re: ERC and MR almost replica Yew bows
Post by: 1442 on February 25, 2019, 06:27:47 am
Yeah nice bows
Mullet, Erc works really good for lighter weight bows like uh 105 and short draws like 31" 😳
Just kidding of course
Great work you did on both of those bows but the Erc is extra fascinating to me
Title: Re: ERC and MR almost replica Yew bows
Post by: peacefullymadewarbows on February 25, 2019, 06:44:28 am
Thanks a lot guys!

Del: Yew are the yew whisperer ;) but I was willing to take a chance. Your advice is always very appreciated. The backwards curve was just something I thought looked kinda cool. Like a subtle twist on the traditional horn nock.

Mullet:  (lol) I was starting to think that after the second try went bang haha.

1442: Yeah ERC is in my rotating top favorite bow woods. It's so pretty and has fascinating properties. Depends on the day I will say its my favorite. I will hopefully be able to make more. Next goal is to get one a little reasonably shorter 80-76"ntn that holds up. 

Thanks again everyone.
Title: Re: ERC and MR almost replica Yew bows
Post by: DC on February 25, 2019, 08:56:25 am
Very nice!
Title: Re: ERC and MR almost replica Yew bows
Post by: WillS on February 26, 2019, 06:47:28 am
Lovely bows!  The ERC is a smasher.

I'm gonna be really annoying now, but there is something worth bearing in mind when making replicas of the MR bows (it's 90% of what my customers request so I've got a love/hate relationship with them!) which you've brought up, regarding the surprisingly elliptical tiller.

Many of the MR bows are awful - badly made, overly rushed and clearly considered back then as a tool made to satisfy an order list, not long-term personal weapons.  I have no idea if this short one is a good one or a bad one (they're pretty distinguishable in person, I'll do some digging and make sure I locate it next time I'm there for you) but if it's a dodgy one the chances are the tiller wasn't important at all.  I've got my own theories on how they were made, but essentially there's a good chance the original bow was never even on a tiller.  Also, loads of the bows have deep, deliberate heat treating marks in consistent areas of the belly - lots in the handle/fade areas, and also about 8" from the tips.  This to me suggests that they were tempered over charcoal to stiffen up the weak areas that would otherwise result in overly elliptical tillers, if not hinges. 

Unless you've got the bow in front of you, there's no way of knowing whether the one you're copying has these or not.  I'd be willing to bet it does, which would mean the original bow wasn't as elliptical as yours.  The nice thing about being able to study the ones you're copying in person is that you can see those heat marks and copy them, or leave slightly more wood there to give a similar strength to the belly.  I've not got WoW to hand, but is the original a galleon section, or more D shaped?  Thats another deciding factor, as the latter would give more compressive resistance midlimb to tips, and you wouldn't know just by the measurements as you only get width and depth from the book (and they're usually slightly out, too!)

That then begs the question - do you go into bowyer mode, and take what is perhaps an overly-elliptical tiller and tweak it slightly to bring it round more (especially on such a short bow) or do you stick with an "exact" replica regardless your instincts as a bowyer, possibly to the detriment of the bow's longevity? 
Title: Re: ERC and MR almost replica Yew bows
Post by: ohma2 on February 26, 2019, 07:53:15 am
Two beautifull bows  and finish .
Title: Re: ERC and MR almost replica Yew bows
Post by: DC on February 26, 2019, 10:22:11 am
Great post Will. I've worked with a lot of great craftsmen in my life and also quite a few that couldn't walk and chew gum at the same time. There's no reason to believe that things were any different a thousand years ago.
Title: Re: ERC and MR almost replica Yew bows
Post by: Hawkdancer on February 26, 2019, 11:23:00 am
The operative term is"almost replicas"!  Very nice bows - out of my draw range, though (SH)!  I think we can function quite well making a sort of bow to specs that meet our individual needs and retain enough of the original design to consider it a replica.  Very good observations and information from all replies!  None of my work will make it to museum/replica grade, they'll be "sort of", or "almost replicas", but I hope, shooters! :BB
Hawkdancer
Title: Re: ERC and MR almost replica Yew bows
Post by: peacefullymadewarbows on February 28, 2019, 10:44:38 am
DC: Thank you very much!

WillS: Thank you! Never annoying haha. I love this kind of discussion. I am simply limited by my inability to handle the original bows. I'd love to of course. So I just tried to sum up the common characteristics of the bows found on the ship. That is of course difficult since they varied widely in shape and construction, which is saying something since they were just one piece of wood!  All of your points are exactly what I am missing. It's interesting and kind of dampening to the spirit of the "Great Warbow" that they probably were just very quickly carved pieces that were braced once and sent out the door but depending on the mastery and passion of the bowyer this probably was the case for a good deal of them. While it's not exact replicating I'd bet ya a Great British Pound that a bow almost exactly like the one I made did exist at some point during the supremacy of the warbow. So, it is speculative but testing with this bow would be more than not valuable at all. I'd love to get access to a field to shoot some distance with it. This will be the best I can do. I may always be the guy in the corner scraping out "Mary Rose Style" warbows haha but in the end it's all in the fun of it for me. But of course I want to make at some point an exact dimensional, cross sectional replica, sap wood thinned replica to add to my rack. But overall most of my bows will probably borrow MR dimensions to start and then I'll tiller them out carefully because like you said I am making a hopefully long term personal bow. Your information is appreciated.

ohma2: Thank you very much. First time using tru oil I had some tiny drips and dribbles on a couple spots of each bow but overall I'm in love with how it lays down and looks in the end.

Hawkdancer: Thank you! I do believe a bow like mine definitely had to exist at some point in the time of the warbow. So it's a replica of some bow out there decayed in the soil haha. But yeah it is mainly a nice personal longbow I will enjoy shooting and that's the heart of all this for me. "Shooters" are what are most important!
Title: Re: ERC and MR almost replica Yew bows
Post by: WillS on February 28, 2019, 12:29:00 pm
Personally, I think what you've made is a really, really nice MR bow.  It's unequivocally an MR bow, because it has retained the MR dimensions, taken from an actual MR bow at the end of the process. 

I'll do my best to locate the original, and record as much as I can regarding the stave itself and any heat treating marks or reflex etc, which should give you a better idea of what the original tiller may have looked like.

Slightly off topic now, but as for sitting in the corner scraping out MR bows, that's me all over as well.  Of course you do get a few people looking down at you saying that making bows exactly to dimensions is a lesser skill, because you're not "making" a bow, but hey.  The danger of forums, FB etc is that often people think you post everything you make, when in reality it's just the stuff you think will be interesting that gets shared.  It gives a twisted impression of what you do - for instance, that heavy honeysuckle bow you made a while ago was absolutely superb and nobody's seen it yet!  I tend to only post actual MR copies or weird experiments, because I don't think people really care that much about seeing another yew bow that looks the same as all the others!
Title: Re: ERC and MR almost replica Yew bows
Post by: Mikkolaht on February 28, 2019, 11:50:53 pm
ERC warbow is so beautiful, love the colours man!
ERC is ''pretty soft wood?'' so I guess with careful tillering you can make a great shooting and over 100+lb  bow like this!
As a beginner I can only dream of making bows like this...

Have a nice day man!
Title: Re: ERC and MR almost replica Yew bows
Post by: peacefullymadewarbows on March 01, 2019, 08:15:43 am
WillS: Thank you very much! And no worries if you can't. I imagine planning a trek to the MR museum and getting the backstage access to be quite the process. This is true Will. We all probably have five times the projects in process per number we post. I know I sure do. :BB I bet a tour of everybody's workspaces from PA would be quite interesting. Thank you for the kind words on that honeysuckle. If I hadn't shipped the thing out the day after I posted in it on instagram I would definitely post it here  :P. I get your point but I'll have you know I never get tired of looking at yew bows haha (lol). Thanks again.

Mikkolaht: Thank you! Yes. Two thinigs when making an ERC self bow especially if you are going for a specific draw weight. The tiller needs to be as close to perfect as you can manage so never pull even a half inch past seeing any tiny hinge or stiff in the bend. BUT on the flip side - because it is so soft you need to be careful when working down stiff spots. You only need a cabinet scraper. And even then I've gone a few scrapes too far and a stiff became a hinge. It is soft enough that a cabinet scraper can remove quite a bit of wood per stroke. I am not far from a beginner. I still consider myself very very novice level. And by your show of skill on the boo backed ash you can be making these in no time at all. Thanks again and good day to you!
Title: Re: ERC and MR almost replica Yew bows
Post by: backtowood B2W on March 01, 2019, 10:23:43 pm
Nice bows! The ERC is a looking great
A warbow is definitely on my list too
Title: Re: ERC and MR almost replica Yew bows
Post by: peacefullymadewarbows on March 03, 2019, 06:43:56 pm
Well guys, as a bowyer you must learn not to fall too far in love with one bow... Who am I kidding that cedar is beautiful but, she blew after 20 shots the day after I took these photos  :-[. She made about 130 plus shots just fine (even in colder drier weather) before getting oiled up. You live and learn. I am thankful to have more staves to try with will hopefully come out to a more durable result. Goal of at least 1000 arrows and most of them after I pretty her up I hope. (lol) I won't pretend ERC is the most durable wood BUT variation between staves is huge so hopefully, statistics will help me out eventually. This was a pretty garden variety stave. Just an update for all glad she made it as far as she did. Each attempt goes further than the last. 
Title: Re: ERC and MR almost replica Yew bows
Post by: Mikkolaht on March 09, 2019, 02:20:18 pm
Dang man...
Feels bad to hear that, but you can all ways make new ones  ;)
Title: Re: ERC and MR almost replica Yew bows
Post by: peacefullymadewarbows on March 09, 2019, 04:16:27 pm
Well, look at the new post on the warbow page haha.  (lol)
Title: Re: ERC and MR almost replica Yew bows
Post by: Badger on March 09, 2019, 06:21:48 pm
Very nice work, I like the tiller on that yew bow, makes for a snappy shooter with no handshock. I never fall in love with ERC, I have made maybe 1/2 dozen and they all eventually broke.
Title: Re: ERC and MR almost replica Yew bows
Post by: peacefullymadewarbows on March 09, 2019, 07:51:07 pm
Were they self bows? Can you elucidate as to why a bow that once made it to full draw just fine eventually breaks? Is it that the wood can't take the vibration of the shot? It has me curious because my bow broke when only at 29" on the arrow when it had of course made and shot from full 31" so many times before.
Title: Re: ERC and MR almost replica Yew bows
Post by: Del the cat on March 10, 2019, 03:51:33 am
Presumably bows break for similar reasons that valve springs or suspension springs in a car will break.
The constant cycle of stress  leads to the weakest point giving up eventually. Of course not all springs break, so presumable the weakest point in the ones that break is weaker than that of those that don't break.
The weak point may be anything that concentrates the stress, a pin knot, a buried knot, a nick in the fibres. It may only be relatively weak because of a stiff point either side of it. It could be something several rings down inside the bow that happened to the tree years ago... a passing wizard leaned his staff against tree ;) or a squirrel gnawed the bark .. sorry getting silly now  ::) :-[
OK metal fatigue take somewhat longer but steel springs exhibit the same properties in other respects too. E.G they take a set.
Del
PS... it's a quiet day here ... too wind for the flight shooting I was hoping for  ::) >:(
Title: Re: ERC and MR almost replica Yew bows
Post by: peacefullymadewarbows on March 10, 2019, 07:28:24 am
Interesting. Silly is always good. I bet that squirrel knew it was gonna be a bow in the future and wanted to play the long con on me  (lol). Yeah it is true we can't see the flaws that may be too small or lie totally encased in the bow limb. Suppose that's the chance we all take with making these things. Thank you for your response. It helps me decide what'll truly make a good bow beyond just making it to full draw on the tiller. ... Just shoot slightly into the wind it'll curve back to a straight shot minus a few yards of course ;).
Title: Re: ERC and MR almost replica Yew bows
Post by: meanewood on March 10, 2019, 04:32:49 pm
Last week I had my first broken string (Linen) and was a bit of a shock, but on reflection, it was always going to happen soon.

That's the thing about working with natural materials and taking them to their limits.

It's a bit like life it's self. In medieval times life was hard and people were much more aware of their own mortality than we are nowadays.

Will mentioned the haphazard finish on the 'Mary Rose' bows. That could be a sign of how the bowyers viewed their work, a tool that was disposable and not something to spend needless time 'Tarting Up'!

The thing is, wood is the most amazing thing and when you add the life or death functionability of a hand crafted longbow, they are truly a thing of beauty and we can be forgiven for shedding the odd tear when one passes away.

I try to be as 'traditional' as possible when making these bows and strings but I know I'll never be satisfied with a bow until that pesky last tool mark is sanded out!


Title: Re: ERC and MR almost replica Yew bows
Post by: Sidewinder on March 12, 2019, 04:43:37 pm
Sorry to hear about the bow breaking. I commented on your other post before I read this one. It was really beautiful and thats the allure of ERC so I think backing it is the way to go.
 One thing I noticed with ERC when I have cut ERC brush etc... is when you break a branch it will break easliy on tension side but the compression side is fairly stubborn. At least on green stuff so that tells me all I needed to know.
That ERC backed bow that won BOM last month  was a stunner and looks like a real shooter but it was backed. I used to try and prove conventional wisdom wrong until it kept hitten me up side the head. Now I have decided to try and not make the same mistakes others have that have proven to be foundational but build on the established wisdom and build on it from there.  Just my thoughts on the subject. Keep on keeping on buddy. Like jawge says " If your not breakin your not makin"
Title: Re: ERC and MR almost replica Yew bows
Post by: peacefullymadewarbows on March 13, 2019, 07:31:45 pm
meanewood- You should write a book like right now. But for real I could not have said it better myself. Historically these things are just tools but wood is such a unique material among nature. It's so beautiful to carve into and then bend that you can't help but feel attached the creation. I think especially the dynamic nature is what makes them seem almost alive which is what is so addicting about them. I commend you for trying to solve the riddle of the durable linen string. I'd like to build and outfit one of my bows someday with one but I'm still just trying to master bending the wood. Good luck to you.

sidewinder- I just posted on your last response haha. And thank you it's what has me addicted to the species at the moment how beautiful it is to look at plus how fast the wood is. That is  interesting I heard it was from the tension side that it was stronger but either way you're supporting what I've read elsewhere that branch wood is far stronger than trunk wood. My dream stave would be a ring dense stave from a horizontal grown branch. But maybe the compression side is stronger because it lays down more lignin to hold the pushing force. I will note that when I next harvest thank you. Like I said before I do want to try a backed one once I have a stave straight enough to lumber. Probably with elm but maybe with thin hickory. And you might be right. I may be in my rebellious bowyer phase and will learn through six more snapped ERC self war bows that a long lasting one can't be made. The new one is at 77 shots right now so let's let the data roll in. The fun is in the breaking!... it's not but I like this challenge right now and I'll go until it floors me or until I've got one figured out I suppose. Thank you for your information and time.
Title: Re: ERC and MR almost replica Yew bows
Post by: TimothyR on September 06, 2019, 03:54:16 pm
Gorgeous bows.
Title: Re: ERC and MR almost replica Yew bows
Post by: peacefullymadewarbows on September 22, 2019, 08:24:32 pm
Thank you Timothy!
Title: Re: ERC and MR almost replica Yew bows
Post by: bradsmith2010 on November 07, 2019, 09:15:54 am
Nice bows.,,congrats....could you make the cedar longer in hopes it would last longer? Or do u think it would hurt performance?
Title: Re: ERC and MR almost replica Yew bows
Post by: Badger on November 07, 2019, 09:37:19 am
    I am curious what the mass weight on those bows are. My mass calculator would call for the erc bow to be about 30 oz but I suspect that that might be too light.
   On the yew bow it calls for about 33 oz because of the elyptical tiller but I always deduct some when yew is used.
Title: Re: ERC and MR almost replica Yew bows
Post by: peacefullymadewarbows on November 07, 2019, 02:38:20 pm
Hey guys. I think I had that specific ERC measured out to 32oz. Steve, but that was a while ago before it broke so don't take it as gospel.

Hi brad. I actually have 2 more surviving ERC bows both 101lbs @ 31" that have survived 200 plus arrows that are actually shorter. One is 77 inches ntn and 29.1 oz and the other is 80 inches ntn and 30.8 oz. So I think you get lucky with some staves that will hold up and others are the stereotypically brittle in tension.
Title: Re: ERC and MR almost replica Yew bows
Post by: peacefullymadewarbows on November 08, 2019, 12:24:57 pm
Almost forgot Steve. The yew bow is only 24.7 oz. Just measured it now.