Primitive Archer

Main Discussion Area => Shooting and Hunting => Topic started by: Woodely on February 25, 2019, 01:46:38 pm

Title: Shooting technique
Post by: Woodely on February 25, 2019, 01:46:38 pm
What is one the most significant shooting conundrums that you have overcome that have vastly improved your accuracy.

For me it was using a deep hook on the string,  before that I was releasing to early and torquing the string.
Title: Re: Shooting technique
Post by: Pat B on February 25, 2019, 05:38:45 pm
For me it was short drawing. I shoot quickly, as soon as I hit anchor I release. When I find I'm short drawing I will hold at full draw for a second or 2. This sets me back on the right path.
Title: Re: Shooting technique
Post by: rebsr52339 on February 25, 2019, 11:00:28 pm
Pat, a friend , Harry Angle an archer, was up Monday and we were discussing that "very same topic". He said something to me that worked all afternoon. "Dick, draw, anchor, release and damn it, the shot is NOT finished till the arrow hits the target." It worked as I was dropping my left hand. Funny how that works.  ;D
Title: Re: Shooting technique
Post by: Pat B on February 26, 2019, 04:15:10 am
Dick, it's the same with pistol and long gun shooting, isn't it? It's all part of the process.
Title: Re: Shooting technique
Post by: DC on February 26, 2019, 05:31:28 am
My accuracy improved a whole bunch a while back and the only thing I can think I did was to change from 3 finger split to 2 finger split. I doesn't seem like a change that would make a big difference but I'll take it. ;D
Title: Re: Shooting technique
Post by: Pat B on February 26, 2019, 07:53:05 am
I've never shot 3 under but generally I'm unaware of my bow and arrow when shooting. My concentration is on where the arrow will go. I guess if someone is aiming down the arrow or using the point as an aiming reference 3 under would help. Also my arrow nocks are loose and 3 under wouldn't work anyway.
Title: Re: Shooting technique
Post by: rebsr52339 on February 26, 2019, 11:18:54 am
Pat, it IS all part of the process. I find if in practice if I talk OUT LOUD to my self, draw, anchor, release, follow thru, it reinforces the flow of info to the brain. Absolutely no different in shooting. After over 400,000 rounds down range in 55 years, practice and matches, it is a process of info to the brain. That to me is the short of it.
Title: Re: Shooting technique
Post by: DC on February 26, 2019, 01:22:58 pm
I don't have a lot of experience but it seems to me that no matter how you shoot, you have to aim in one form or another. Your brain takes info, whether you know it or not and moves the appropriate muscles to the right postion. Ever watch a 3 year old throw a rock? That's when he/she starts learning to shoot.
Title: Re: Shooting technique
Post by: Woodely on February 26, 2019, 05:41:29 pm
"you have to aim in one form or another."  Instinctive is not about aiming at all.  The way I look at it is if you are not using the arrow point, sights or whatever how the heck can you aim in the general sense.  As far as I'm concerned full on aiming requires some sort of fixed point used for aiming ie.  pin sights, the arrow tip etc.

Tennis is a good example, you dont aim at the last second even if you could. Things are happening so fast, you eyes are fixed on the spot where you want the ball to go.  Same as golf even though you are standing parrell to the line of sight its not aiming, you are simply aligning your body to the imaginary line between the tee and the hole.  Having said that if you are not using a fixed point on your gear you are not aiming in the true sense of the word its purely Instinctive.
Title: Re: Shooting technique
Post by: DC on February 26, 2019, 06:56:12 pm
If it was instinctive a 3 year old could shoot 300. I think you are confusing instinctive with habitual. If it was instinct tennis players wouldn't have to practice 18 hours a day. You start with the first rock you throw and train muscles to work together to hit what you aim at. Your brain knows that arrow is there and how to position your muscles so it will hit what you're looking at. Maybe we're saying the same thing.
Title: Re: Shooting technique
Post by: Hawkdancer on February 26, 2019, 08:17:58 pm
Not enough good practice!  Muscle memory, hand eye coordination, and timing - then doing the exact same sequence, draw, release, and follow through every time!  After enough repetitions and years, you can pick up any similar weapon and be pretty close to accurate, and be able to adjust to the target.  I have put 100s of thousands of rounds down range with rifles and pistol, maybe 100k with a bow over 70 years of shooting and still try to use repetitive sequences on every shot.  But everyone has to be familiar with their equipment!
Hawkdancer
Title: Re: Shooting technique
Post by: Woodely on February 27, 2019, 06:07:42 am
I'am not here to argue..!  just making a point but you cannot argue this term because most Archers and the whole archery community Professionals and competition Archers refer to Instinctive as shooting without sights.  Without sights there is no aiming.
How can you call shooting a Gun from the hip Aiming...?  Or please define the term Instinctive, or what is the Definition.  What the Archery experts say its shooting a bow without sights or using a fixed point.

https://www.hunter-ed.com/georgia/studyGuide/Aiming-the-Bow/201011_700016045/
You adjust the aim for different distances by instinct developed with practice... There again I guess a 3 year old could practice with sights but shooting instinctive for a 3 year old would take years of practice. In its pure form,  instinctive shooting is performed just as you'd throw a stone or a ball — by looking at what you want to hit and letting 'er fly.....

At some point I do aim but only briefly,  I focus on the target, slowly raise the bow bring it to my anchor point look down the arrow towards the target then focus totally on the target with both eyes or the dominant one.  The last few seconds I'am not using any fixed point on the bow. 
Title: Re: Shooting technique
Post by: DC on February 27, 2019, 06:10:04 am
If it was instinctive a 3 year old could shoot 300. I think you are confusing instinctive with habitual. If it was instinct tennis players wouldn't have to practice 18 hours a day. You start with the first rock you throw and train muscles to work together to hit what you aim at. Your brain knows that arrow is there and how to position your muscles so it will hit what you're looking at. Maybe we're saying the same thing.

Woodley- sorry for this rant. For some reason the name "Instinctive" just sends me off my rails. It's really just semantics and I shouldn't over react. I know what you mean and I should just accept it and bite my tongue. :)
Title: Re: Shooting technique
Post by: Woodely on February 27, 2019, 11:05:52 am
Be it as it may semantics or  whatever.  Its funny others on here that mention Instinctive time and time again wont chime in and just let us argue the point to no avail.   I'am not saying my definition is correct but there has to some validity to it.   I find that online discussion about a subject that differs in opinion never seems to get anywhere.  Its almost like a generation gap.
Enough said from this cowboy.  (A)
Title: Re: Shooting technique
Post by: Pappy on February 28, 2019, 01:56:42 am
Call it what you like and you are right Woodely it is discussed a lot and everyone has their own thoughts on the subject, but what DC said is dead on. Your brain don't know with the first arrow or base ball what to do but over time doing it over and over again it will learn where you need to be pointing to hit what you want.  (-P
 Pappy
Title: Re: Shooting technique
Post by: Woodely on February 28, 2019, 05:44:38 am
Call it what you like and you are right Woodely it is discussed a lot and everyone has their own thoughts on the subject, but what DC said is dead on. Your brain don't know with the first arrow or base ball what to do but over time doing it over and over again it will learn where you need to be pointing to hit what you want.  (-P
 Pappy
Ok,   what Don said was  "you have to aim in one form or another"   "doing it over and over again it will learn where you need to be pointing to hit what you want."   Is pointing another way of saying its aiming.
Title: Re: Shooting technique
Post by: Pat B on February 28, 2019, 06:20:38 am
I guess pointing is the same as aiming. I look where I want my arrow to go. With enough practice the arrows will go where you are looking. The smaller your target is the closer you'll get to that point so instead of looking at the target overall concentrate on one particular spot, another arrow hole, a slight discoloration or whatever and not just the target.
 When shooting a basketball, throwing a baseball or football you don't aim but look where you want the ball to go. Same with instinctive shooting  with archery.
Title: Re: Shooting technique
Post by: DC on February 28, 2019, 10:06:23 am
My complaint is not with how it works. It's the use of the word "instinctive" that bothers me. Humans have very few instincts left and throwing/pointing is not one of them. They are learned. I know it's picky and I don't know why it bothers me. It should be called "unconscious" or "habitual". I'll try and keep my mouth shut about it because it wastes a lot of time for no good purpose. I gave up trying to change the world when I turned 30 and now we have legalised marijuana I care even less ;) ;)
Title: Re: Shooting technique
Post by: Pat B on February 28, 2019, 11:38:15 am
The book I learned to shoot from was G.Fred Asbell's "Instinctive Shooting" so that's why I say I shoot instinctively. Call it what you may but this a universal term for this type of shooting. Just like our primitive archery isn't really primitive archery.  :)
Title: Re: Shooting technique
Post by: Pappy on March 01, 2019, 12:56:14 am
I don't know DC , I have a grand daughter that as soon as she could move her arm would point at what she wanted, she hadn't been around long enough at that time to learn that. ;) This conversation is always fun, always seems to get under the skin of folks that use a point of aim that some
don't. I guess I do aim, :-\  I look at what I want to hit, point my arm at it and over time I learn the trajectory.  :) Eye hand coordination which is if I am not mistaken [correct me if I am wrong] you are born with.  (-P
 Pappy
Title: Re: Shooting technique
Post by: Scyth on March 03, 2019, 07:50:11 am
. . . I shoot with a thumb ring . . .

the following video has been (more than) useful

https://youtu.be/ckCRXwDThxI


regards

Scyth







Title: Re: Shooting technique
Post by: bradsmith2010 on March 08, 2019, 11:09:02 am
one of the things that helped me the most, was shooting like I shoot best and not trying to change that to shoot "better"...I am bout 6 foot,,, and at some times I tried my best to develope a longer draw,, well I can do it,, but its just not comfortable for me,, I made alot of bows for people with long draws and test shoot them pretty well,, but when I just accepted that I like to shoot 24 25 inch draw,, I had more fun,,,
  I started making bows that were effecient at that draw so I dont have any performance issues,, I have a high anchor so I see right down the arrow,, if you saw me shoot you might think I am snap shooting,, I have a shot process,, I just dont pause,, that works better for me so I dont second guess the shot,, once I draw I am commited,,
ok I can hold if you insist, but I dont like it,, and dont shoot that well like that,, I have killed deer holding till they come to a clearing, but that is not the normal for me,, so I think accepting my shooting style as ok, and going with it, have been what helped me most,,and making bows that fit that style,, hmmm bout the same length as Ishi,,
Title: Re: Shooting technique
Post by: DC on March 08, 2019, 01:15:35 pm
I find that if I don't hold a tad I start down the path to target panic/snap shooting. If I'm just shooting for fun, every few shots I hold a little longer, just so I know that I did stop. That seems to stop the long slide downhill. It seems to reinforce that there is a pause there.
Title: Re: Shooting technique
Post by: bradsmith2010 on March 08, 2019, 01:27:27 pm
DC,, I think every one has a little bit different style that works for them,,if you can find that ,, thats the key,, I forgot to mention,, pulling through the shot for me,, the pausing is what gives me the problem,, so I dont do it,,
I always felt like I needed to pause,, but in the long run,, I just shoot better if I dont,, well,, there is a slight pause as I pull through the shot,, but I dont think of it that way,, :D  I just try not to think,, at this point I have practice for so many years,, I should be able to do it thinking or not,,
most of my practice is at close range,, except on stump shooting,, and I will shoot as far as my bow will shoot,, (-S
just keep doing what is working for you,,thats the best,,
Im not suggesting any one shoot like me,, I am just saying what helped me in my quest for hitting the target,, or deer,, (W

there is a utube video of me, shooting a few arrows with my short turkey bow,, brad shooting wood bow,, will bring it up

also in the video i am shooting no nocking point,,and no shelf
Title: Re: Shooting technique
Post by: StickMark on March 12, 2019, 04:43:00 pm
Brad, I think we shoot the same way.  Interestingly enough, I hesistated/waited for the more perfect shot, and "my buck of the year" turned his head over the vitals, then pranced after the doe. 

Shooting quick is field efficient.
Title: Re: Shooting technique
Post by: Sticks on May 29, 2019, 06:24:05 am
I look at the target and my minds eye sees where the arrow will fly to get there then I raise the bow come to anchor and let it fly.Some times I hit something.
Title: Re: Shooting technique
Post by: Woodely on June 06, 2019, 05:13:49 pm
All this stuff about instinctive has got me going.  I have experineced certain things like ESP, déjà vu, some clairvoyant stuff and astral travel (out of body experience). And yes I have seen UFO's though only once.  Maybe pure instinctive is an Alien trait. :)  In our brains there are areas that need discovering further.  :)
Title: Re: Shooting technique
Post by: Hawkdancer on June 06, 2019, 07:57:22 pm
I may not be remembering this properly, but it seems that in my very early shooting years, we would actually stick an "aiming stake in the ground for each distance we would shoot with a given arrow length.  Sooner or later, hand/eye coordination and muscle memory would take over, and we shot by "instinct" - actually by learned action.  After a few years or so of good practice, we learned how to adjust for various ranges with more practice, without stakes.  Good practice is the key! 
Hawkdancer
Title: Re: Shooting technique
Post by: Woodely on June 07, 2019, 10:25:47 am
 "we would shoot with a given arrow length"  I don't get that part I always shoot arrows that are 30" long regardless.  Wouldn't various sizes hinder accuracy.
Title: Re: Shooting technique
Post by: neuse on June 08, 2019, 02:44:53 am
I hold on target to long, probably 8 to 11 seconds.
Title: Re: Shooting technique
Post by: Hawkdancer on June 08, 2019, 07:23:06 am
"we would shoot with a given arrow length"  I don't get that part I always shoot arrows that are 30" long regardless.  Wouldn't various sizes hinder accuracy.
each arrow length would have a different stake depending on the individual shooter, as you gained experience, the difference narrowed, and you adjusted to a different  length almost automatically.  Normally, all your arrows are the same length.  But tain't necessarily so!  Hope this makes sense. 
Hawkdancer
Title: Re: Shooting technique
Post by: Pat B on June 08, 2019, 08:11:03 am
With cane and hardwood shoot arrows it's not always easy to find matching shafts but you can make arrows that shoot close enough to each other that the length doesn't matter, more so with hardwood shoots but with some cane too.
Title: Re: Shooting technique
Post by: Woodely on June 08, 2019, 02:17:20 pm
"we would shoot with a given arrow length"  I don't get that part I always shoot arrows that are 30" long regardless.  Wouldn't various sizes hinder accuracy.
each arrow length would have a different stake depending on the individual shooter, as you gained experience, the difference narrowed, and you adjusted to a different  length almost automatically.  Normally, all your arrows are the same length.  But tain't necessarily so!  Hope this makes sense. 
Hawkdancer

Ok gotcha, but 30" is 30".  :)