Primitive Archer

Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: simk on March 03, 2019, 11:57:41 pm

Title: Simon & Martin's BowSwap Build Along (-;
Post by: simk on March 03, 2019, 11:57:41 pm
Hey there,

Me and btw (back-to-wood-Martin) have decided to give each other a personal bow and to document the building process here on a little build along.

As my bows - I dont know why - always end up at my personal comfortable drawing weight of around 40# it will be a challenge for me to end up with martin's 50#. But I will try.

Today I went into my stash to pick up a suitable stave. Lookin' forward see with what Martin will chime in...

Cheers
Title: Re: Simon & Martin's BowSwap Build Along (-;
Post by: bjrogg on March 04, 2019, 12:13:59 am
Should be interesting. (-P  That sure looks like a dandy stave.
Bjrogg
Title: Re: Simon & Martin's BowSwap Build Along (-;
Post by: mullet on March 04, 2019, 12:39:05 am
Looking forward to seeing it.
Title: Re: Simon & Martin's BowSwap Build Along (-;
Post by: jeffp51 on March 04, 2019, 06:13:48 am
sounds like a lot of fun.  Keep posting a ton of pics all along the way
Title: Re: Simon & Martin's BowSwap Build Along (-;
Post by: willie on March 05, 2019, 02:42:10 pm
good looking stave, what kind of tree did it come from?
Title: Re: Simon & Martin's BowSwap Build Along (-;
Post by: backtowood B2W on March 06, 2019, 06:11:13 am
Wow, very nice stave!!!! :D :D
So, I had to go through my dry stash to find something very nice too.
I was looking for something suitable for a D/R design, and found about 3 staves - this is the best of them.
Ash
b2w
Title: Re: Simon & Martin's BowSwap Build Along (-;
Post by: simk on March 10, 2019, 05:48:28 am
Hola Martin!

This looks like a promising stave too...3 or four rings to take down, 8 to get to the really luxurious ring  8)

I today roughed out my stave. Got really hungry and therefore needed some swiss cheese and bacon  ;D

Next step will be taking down some sapwood, it's still .5"

Cheers
Title: Re: Simon & Martin's BowSwap Build Along (-;
Post by: Artus on March 10, 2019, 07:31:45 am
Another excited spectator here!  (-P
Title: Re: Simon & Martin's BowSwap Build Along (-;
Post by: DELTA_WOLF on March 10, 2019, 07:47:41 am
thats some crispy lookn bacon and some dry cheese, was the cheese left out to long and dried up? >:D
Title: Re: Simon & Martin's BowSwap Build Along (-;
Post by: backtowood B2W on March 15, 2019, 12:38:28 am
I wanna see you eating that stuff!!! ;D
Found some time to follow up a bit. Cleaned up the stave and decrowned 2 growth rings. Iīm not sure if there is enough wood for my desired crossection (which will be tapered towards the back) mid limb, and enough wood for a proper handle, when I go for the luxury growth rings 10 rings beneath.
I think I will take one more down, as this worked out quite good so far.
My challenge is going shorter with this one. I already cut it to 63". Desired draw length 28", draw weight around 45#.
Title: Re: Simon & Martin's BowSwap Build Along (-;
Post by: simk on March 21, 2019, 11:51:02 am
Hi

Just curious: That hump will be the grip I think. Will you shorten top limb or will there be a yumi for me  ;D

I have a beginners ring chasing tale:

There was a man who started chasing the seventh ring on his stave to have a decent amount of sap in the working limb. when he reached the other side of the stave there was one ring left. He learned two things: 1. Where the top of his stave is. 2. Yew is growing so slooooow. End.

Cheers

BtW (by the way): Nice old shaving horse and tools!
Title: Re: Simon & Martin's BowSwap Build Along (-;
Post by: backtowood B2W on March 21, 2019, 10:44:10 pm
Hola!
Yes, the hump will be the grip.
Sorry for the pic, its canted. the upper will be a bit longer but not that much....
did some work yesterday. got it down to the 4thgrowthring. the luxury stuff was to deep and I wouldn't be able to get the desired width and thickness mid limb. Also the grain run didn't help as it was the opposite where more wood is left.
I changed the handle and inverted it as I discovered a nice close to center design.
Thickness is abut 3/4" now and thin enough to keep over the oven. It weighted 1246 grams and lost 10 overnight. I will keep it some days there maybe prepping the limbs for steaming.
Title: Re: Simon & Martin's BowSwap Build Along (-;
Post by: Deerhunter21 on March 22, 2019, 03:55:42 am
looking good!
Title: Re: Simon & Martin's BowSwap Build Along (-;
Post by: simk on March 26, 2019, 10:24:10 am
indeed, looking good martin, like the character on that stick!
mine starts looking bowalike as well. there was a big knot right after the fade => big relief when I found out that it just dissapears at the level of the belly - hopefully. Next will be steaming the recurves. Your turn again! Cheers
Title: Re: Simon & Martin's BowSwap Build Along (-;
Post by: backtowood B2W on March 26, 2019, 11:17:25 am
Cool some progress as well!
But I'm not sure it's gonna be my turn : the stave lost 40 Gramms since the last post, so some more days above the oven - heating season is over soon, hopefully.
Title: Re: Simon & Martin's BowSwap Build Along (-;
Post by: simk on March 26, 2019, 11:26:44 am
i will probably have to sinew it with one layer - that's + 2 weeks for you  ;D
Title: Re: Simon & Martin's BowSwap Build Along (-;
Post by: backtowood B2W on April 06, 2019, 10:02:53 am
As wood moisture isn't so important when doing steam bending, I decided to keep on.
First I narrowed the stave a bit more and made it thin enough to bend. Beside the handle some more deflex and the limbs reflex. Was a bit worried because of the humps close to the tips. Everything worked out fine, no cracks and the humps are pretty smooth now - the outer growth rings which I left at the tips helped to relieve some stress there.
Reflex is 4" inches now.
The Stave weights 881 grams now - will control that a bit for the next step, which will be a proper thickness taper and than a heat treatment.
Any concern? advice? thoughts? ... let me know!
good night!
B2W
Title: Re: Simon & Martin's BowSwap Build Along (-;
Post by: backtowood B2W on April 06, 2019, 10:03:27 am
final outcome
Title: Re: Simon & Martin's BowSwap Build Along (-;
Post by: SLIMBOB on April 06, 2019, 10:34:57 am
Not bad at all!  It's taking shape.
Title: Re: Simon & Martin's BowSwap Build Along (-;
Post by: maitus on April 06, 2019, 10:36:42 am
I like it :)...!
Title: Re: Simon & Martin's BowSwap Build Along (-;
Post by: simk on April 06, 2019, 10:40:19 am
Wow! Ambitous design  ;D
I'm just stuck in a priority interim-project - my doughter want's a bow for her 4th birthday  :BB
Cheers

Edit:
Quote
Any concern? advice? thoughts?
I wasn't really successful with this r/d selfbows. They always lost lots of the reflex and/or collapsed in the r/d transission. Next time I will do it wider there...
Title: Re: Simon & Martin's BowSwap Build Along (-;
Post by: simk on April 19, 2019, 10:15:18 am
trying to catch up a little bit - while still strugglin' with this little mini-kidz-bow! that was a thick bend, 1" square. cheers
Title: Re: Simon & Martin's BowSwap Build Along (-;
Post by: simk on April 27, 2019, 11:26:07 am
Hello Everybody  8)
I just stole some time to proceed a little on this one: Chased a ring - roughed out - and today some tillering.
What da ya think about that tiller? Upper limb is right.
What da ya think about this ring violation on the last picture? Its about 4" before the outer fade on the lower limb. I would like to go without backing the bow? On the third pic you see how the knot after the fade came out. nice strange violet wood...
Next will be bracing it.
Cheers


Title: Re: Simon & Martin's BowSwap Build Along (-;
Post by: backtowood B2W on April 29, 2019, 10:38:57 am
Hi simk!
Cannot help you as Iīm not a yew expert, but I like the color!
Have you heat treated the levers? - they look so burnished to me.
Couldn't make some progress on yours, so many other things to do right now...
Title: Re: Simon & Martin's BowSwap Build Along (-;
Post by: simk on April 29, 2019, 10:31:08 pm
Hey b2w - never hurry and take ya time! Yes I heat treated the levers to fixate the bend; they are quite thick so aggressive treating was indicated. The charcoal will fall away with final shaping anyway and the back was not affected.
The ring violation is now covered under a thick layer of sinew - 50 gramms to be exact.
My main concern still is the area of the prior knot after the fade; i have only limited confidence in that nice violet wood. Hope for the best.
It was already that knot that left a weak spot after removing and limited the draw weight to 27# @ 20" in the pretillering stage. If everything works out fine without further issues and surprises I will maybe still achieve the desired draw weight. I will try to do the final tillering slowly and careful. It takes two weaks to dry now! Cheers 
Title: Re: Simon & Martin's BowSwap Build Along (-;
Post by: simk on April 29, 2019, 10:33:57 pm
few more
Title: Re: Simon & Martin's BowSwap Build Along (-;
Post by: backtowood B2W on April 30, 2019, 08:12:58 pm
Ha, I made just the same face as your beloved one. Holy moly the sinew gained some reflex!
Title: Re: Simon & Martin's BowSwap Build Along (-;
Post by: Deerhunter21 on May 01, 2019, 07:07:20 am
Reminds me of a really reflexed horn bow!
Title: Re: Simon & Martin's BowSwap Build Along (-;
Post by: DELTA_WOLF on May 01, 2019, 05:03:52 pm
looks like it will do plenty fast
Title: Re: Simon & Martin's BowSwap Build Along (-;
Post by: simk on May 06, 2019, 02:11:11 am
Hi Folks
The sinewing break allowed me to finish this little project in time - my sweety just got 4 years old and ordered a bow - a blue one!
Ok, tried my best in painting the bow - never done this before and also never felt the calling to do so - did my own colour of natural pigments - not so easy getting that lines clear.
Also first time doing arrows myself.
Anyway: It's very difficult to tiller such a little bow - hinged it twice with my little delta sander - got luck with fixing it again with heat.
Sealed with boat-lack as it's probably somtimes stored outside in the rain.
Girl happy - mission accomplished
Title: Re: Simon & Martin's BowSwap Build Along (-;
Post by: simk on May 06, 2019, 02:12:07 am
clean release  8)
Title: Re: Simon & Martin's BowSwap Build Along (-;
Post by: MattZA on May 07, 2019, 08:37:34 pm
What a cool little bow!

The adult ones are looking pretty darn good too.
Title: Re: Simon & Martin's BowSwap Build Along (-;
Post by: simk on May 10, 2019, 10:55:14 am
Hello Again & thank you Matt  (-S

Today I mounted overlays. Don't know how you fit them on the stave but I have a special little procedure. Requires only a dirty finger...

cheer
Title: Re: Simon & Martin's BowSwap Build Along (-;
Post by: simk on May 10, 2019, 10:24:10 pm
OK - time to get a little nervous: Iniatial bend after sinewing...shows ok bend and draw force of around 33# on the tips => estimeted draw weight on 28" draw = 60#...that's fine. First excersise and correction measures established.
To be continued...
Cheers
Title: Re: Simon & Martin's BowSwap Build Along (-;
Post by: Deerhunter21 on May 11, 2019, 07:01:47 am
I dont understand how rubbing the lead helps.
Title: Re: Simon & Martin's BowSwap Build Along (-;
Post by: simk on May 11, 2019, 09:01:21 am
I dont understand how rubbing the lead helps.

If you do so the exact outlines of the overlay will appear as negative image on the paper... :OK
Title: Re: Simon & Martin's BowSwap Build Along (-;
Post by: Rākau (NZnuka) on May 11, 2019, 06:58:55 pm
Hi Simon, what are you doing with those clamps in the second picture there?
Title: Re: Simon & Martin's BowSwap Build Along (-;
Post by: backtowood B2W on May 11, 2019, 10:17:41 pm
Finally I could squeeze out some time for this bow!
I brought down the limbs to a reasonable thickness, slightly bending it over the chest.
Then tempering of the belly.
Here I also made some little corrections.  Little more in a flat spot in the upper and a little less in the lower.
So now I have about 3" reflex.
After a bit of resting and rehydration I made the Back Taper and the nocks.
Bended it a bit over the chest - not far from bracing but I will bring it down a bit more before.
Title: Re: Simon & Martin's BowSwap Build Along (-;
Post by: backtowood B2W on May 11, 2019, 10:22:05 pm
Here is a pic from the back with the string tracking Iīm looking for.
What do you think? is this a way to go?
Title: Re: Simon & Martin's BowSwap Build Along (-;
Post by: globalmark on May 12, 2019, 12:42:06 am
Both Beautiful looking Bows Guys - Nice post - double build along in one - seems like a dance off with Bows hahah

backtowood B2W - in your tool picture on 1st Page - there is a beautiful stool in Background - did you make that ?? hand tools - looks like the old fashion tractor seat type style made from a Log - (being a cabinet maker , made few chairs and can appreciate the shape in that one )

Sink - Is that a sort of Mongolian Horse bow type style made out of 1 piece ?? interesting what's that style called ? (i just made a horse bow with Glass - i know dont mention glass here , but its mostly wood bow)
i like that idea of all one piece ??
Mark
Title: Re: Simon & Martin's BowSwap Build Along (-;
Post by: simk on May 12, 2019, 11:45:31 am
Hi Simon, what are you doing with those clamps in the second picture there?

Exercising sinew. Try to soften and stretch the sinew in stiffer spots - instead and before more wood removal. I now only scraped a little inner top limb  and and then clamped again for 10 min. There is an effect on the tiller, isn't there? At least the reflex is gone  ;D

Mark: Not a specific design, I call it overmotivated molle   
Title: Re: Simon & Martin's BowSwap Build Along (-;
Post by: backtowood B2W on May 13, 2019, 10:31:35 am
Globalmark: the stool is still roughed out, just made the sitting surface. I made 3 bows, a riser (you will see soon), and this stool out of this huge wild cherry tree. I burnt the rest :NN.
some progress:
braced it today! 25#@13" Lost 1" of reflex and it follows the string 0.5" hopefully I'm not too short with this one - quite some character.
The outcome of the handle makes the lower looking stiff, but it feels good balanced.
I also used donīs method for string alignment with the wire hooked on the string over the handle.

Concerns? Thoughts? Comments? You know Iīm still a beginner, so please feel free to criticize !! Thank YOU!
Title: Re: Simon & Martin's BowSwap Build Along (-;
Post by: backtowood B2W on May 13, 2019, 10:32:53 am
String alignment and stool  ???
Title: Re: Simon & Martin's BowSwap Build Along (-;
Post by: globalmark on May 13, 2019, 01:09:59 pm
Nice bows both starting to look good and stool also - keep pics coming of both STOOL and bows haha
Mark
Title: Re: Simon & Martin's BowSwap Build Along (-;
Post by: simk on May 15, 2019, 09:33:00 am
Hey Martin - super clean profile on a stave with plenty character. Everything looks great. The only spot which I think is difficult to judge is the deflex after the fade top limb. If I were you I^d go on with evenly scraping from the fades till after midlimbs...and leave the reflexed part. But that's just a bloody beginners consulting  ;D

I got mine on a solid 25" draw now - feels like 45# - to achieve a safe 28" draw for Martin some small corrections need to be done. Any good advice for final tillering warmly welcome. Failure is not an option with this one  (--)

Thanx in advance
Title: Re: Simon & Martin's BowSwap Build Along (-;
Post by: M2A on May 15, 2019, 04:55:50 pm
Nice progress on your bows guys. Been a fun read so far. Looking forward to the rest.  (-P
Mike 
Title: Re: Simon & Martin's BowSwap Build Along (-;
Post by: backtowood B2W on May 16, 2019, 08:22:55 am
Looking good Simon! A Pic in front of some better background would help me a lot, also if its rotated.
Couldn't make too much on your bow, too much distraction lately! but I got done a little  ???
I worked on the inners as you suggested and raised draw length slowly.
Around 17 I had to give the lower outer a bit more bend because the upper outer started to get set.
The bow measures 31,5#@18",  bh: 4", m:542g
Title: Re: Simon & Martin's BowSwap Build Along (-;
Post by: DC on May 16, 2019, 08:34:38 am
B2W do you have a slick way of outlining the bow like that or do you just use the mouse and a steady hand?
Title: Re: Simon & Martin's BowSwap Build Along (-;
Post by: MattZA on May 16, 2019, 08:53:52 am
Both bows are looking excellent, chaps!

Simon, once I get to the last few inches of draw I shoot it up to the final length. So, assuming the tiller is good at 25", I'll shoot maybe 30 shots at 25", then check the tiller. If it starts to lose it's shape I'll shave it where necessary. If it keeps it's shape I'll shoot another 30-40 at 25" and then check again. If it's still good, I'll give it a 15 minute rest and then start the process again at 26", and so on.

I let set be the deciding factor in my final draw length. So for example, if I'm aiming for 29" of draw, but I notice set increasing exponentially from 27", I'll leave it at that length. If it's reaching 29" without taking any set I'll normally narrow the outer tips to slowly approach that "trade off" point.

Of course, I have absolutely no idea what I'm doing, so that could all be complete nonsense  ;D
Title: Re: Simon & Martin's BowSwap Build Along (-;
Post by: backtowood B2W on May 16, 2019, 09:04:05 am
DC: First i crop the pics, leaving more or less same space left and right the tips. Than I reduce resolution and image sice. Doing that with apple preview.

Going camping to LEGO Land with the family for 3 days! So no progress this weekend!
Gonna take my Ishi sticks with me. )P(
Title: Re: Simon & Martin's BowSwap Build Along (-;
Post by: DC on May 16, 2019, 01:12:42 pm
I'm talking about the black outline along the limb.
Title: Re: Simon & Martin's BowSwap Build Along (-;
Post by: backtowood B2W on May 16, 2019, 08:35:53 pm
DC: i donīt do that with the computer. I set up a strong light on a tripod - Adjusting it in the hight allows me to make a thinner or thicker shadow of the Bow on the background. Photo taken right above the light source aligned with the centre of the bow of course.
I like to do this especially with character staves - its a bit like squeezing your eyes to get a fuzzy vision.
Title: Re: Simon & Martin's BowSwap Build Along (-;
Post by: DC on May 17, 2019, 05:33:59 am
DC: i donīt do that with the computer. I set up a strong light on a tripod - Adjusting it in the hight allows me to make a thinner or thicker shadow of the Bow on the background. Photo taken right above the light source aligned with the centre of the bow of course.
I like to do this especially with character staves - its a bit like squeezing your eyes to get a fuzzy vision.
I like the result, a nice crisp line. I was hoping to do that to my full draw pictures but it would be kind of tough to set up outside with a timer and running back and forth. Thanks
Title: Re: Simon & Martin's BowSwap Build Along (-;
Post by: backtowood B2W on June 01, 2019, 01:53:39 am
I came underweight!!! >:(
What did I do?
Hi all!
As I recognized that it gets more and more set, I decided to temper the belly again, also I brought it back to 3" reflex - measured from the handle.
Kept on tillering - reducing the width in the outers and a bit working fades.
But again it started getting set....
So it draws 33# at 25"now - tiller looks ok now - shot some arrows. Not bad for 33#. Tips are still very clumsy so there may some more fps.
But anyway its underweight is no option, so I have 2 possibilities to carry on.
1st: Putting on a combed Flax fiber backing, where I don't have successful results. (I always used carpenter glue, I think hide glue will be the trick)
2nd:Start a new bow: I just straightened and balanced the shape of a PLP shoot. It have some slight d/r shape as well, 63"ntn, 1" wide.
what do YOU think??
The pic unbraced shows actually the string follow and reverse, ...sorry didīt pay to much attention resizing and name it
Title: Re: Simon & Martin's BowSwap Build Along (-;
Post by: simk on June 01, 2019, 04:04:26 am
looks nice - i still could send you some yew laminates  >:D
Edit: Do you have set in the fades too or only in the reflexed area? imho you should get a little mor bend out midlimbs? it's more the upstate but not DC style  8)

I had a similar bow which I heat the set away again and again...
Title: Re: Simon & Martin's BowSwap Build Along (-;
Post by: Deerhunter21 on June 01, 2019, 04:38:25 pm
Oh no! Did it break!
Title: Re: Simon & Martin's BowSwap Build Along (-;
Post by: backtowood B2W on June 01, 2019, 10:06:42 pm
@SIMK: So you suggest  to glue on some yew on the belly. Like Simon said - you like it the hard way...
I compared the profile with the traced profile from the beginning. Looks like most of the set happened mid limbs in the lower limb, The upper took set right after the hump behind the fade. I measured reflex this morning: 1"
I hope the r/d experts will chime in and give some advice.
I think tempering the belly again and back it with a thin layer of combed flax will gain some draw weight.
Title: Re: Simon & Martin's BowSwap Build Along (-;
Post by: txdm on June 02, 2019, 02:47:48 am
In theory, adding tension strength to the back could make the set worse. Sinew seems to be the only backing that can be the exception to that.

I added 3 layers of feed bag paper backing with TBIII to a bow that had set. I used a full-length strip of wood to clamp the backing under pressure while it dried in a reflex shape. The bow's draw weight increased by 3 lbs, but the set came right back after some shooting.

If I get the chance some day, I will try using a belly lam to cure set if I'm determined to keep that particular bow instead of starting over. Maybe paper just to see what happens.
Title: Re: Simon & Martin's BowSwap Build Along (-;
Post by: simk on July 05, 2019, 10:34:35 am
we have summertime and I did little work on the trade bow...prior to last wood removal on the tips it was chronoed with 172fps  :OK

home straight  :BB

Title: Re: Simon & Martin's BowSwap Build Along (-;
Post by: simk on July 05, 2019, 10:36:23 am
still wonder what martin's brewing  8)
Title: Re: Simon & Martin's BowSwap Build Along (-;
Post by: simk on July 05, 2019, 10:37:58 am
...
Title: Re: Simon & Martin's BowSwap Build Along (-;
Post by: backtowood B2W on July 06, 2019, 06:07:26 pm
Looking really good!
Now I have just to do my part.
I didn't work on the ash anymore... I guess I will heat treat once more and put on a flaxbacking.
Meanwhile I was brewing and experimenting on several bows.
A 3 piece take down which very different growth ring thickness. One limb is the belly split with just 2 rings.
A short maple recurve with silk backing, HLD .... it is a 3 piece now as well  (--).
And a r/d blood plum which I shot in a bit yesterday.
Next will be a spliced r/d black locust with poor growth rings, I wanna try to reflex the limbs with dry heat.
Title: Re: Simon & Martin's BowSwap Build Along (-;
Post by: backtowood B2W on August 11, 2019, 11:16:29 pm
Simk and me wanted to swap the bows personally, so Simon and family came around for some days. We had a nice time, and shoot a bunch of arrows. Simon liked the plum stick and kept it ( The Ash R/D I didn't work on further, I guess this will become a nice lady bow one day).
I was very sad he took the molle with him again too.... :'( Simk will let you know....)

As it isn't a real build along any more I will post the Plum Stick in an extra thread.
Thanks for watching
B2W
Title: Re: Simon & Martin's BowSwap Build Along (-;
Post by: simk on August 12, 2019, 11:47:10 pm
So yes, we did a spontaneous visit at Martin's place; we met very nice people there and had a very good time. Very cool when the internet becomes real  ;D Apart of the fact that my trade bow broke on day 4 everything was perfect.
Finally with mixed feelings I took a nice b2w-bow with me and promised to start a new one for Martin when I get the time in autumn. So it was a classical "with a smile in one eye and a tear in the other"-event.   
 
Title: Re: Simon & Martin's BowSwap Build Along (-;
Post by: backtowood B2W on August 13, 2019, 10:53:55 am
Oh, I had a good time there in the parkour.
No worrys, Simon, take your time, good things need it!