Primitive Archer

Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: DC on March 15, 2019, 10:13:10 am

Title: New project
Post by: DC on March 15, 2019, 10:13:10 am
New project :) :) Badgers comments about the advantages of a short working limb have intrigued me. I'm thinking about a sinewed, deflexed, static, recurved, molle with wide, short and thin working limbs. I'm a little unsure of the extemes. I have a piece of ERC sapwood that Wizardgoat gave me. It's 62"x 2 1/8" x 1". I'm thinking of splicing the statics on to extend it a bit as I'll lose 2 1/2" spicing in the deflex.
What I'm wondering about is the dimensions of the working limb. It will need some handle because there will be a splice. How long to make the limb compared to the levers? How thin is too thin? I'm after 40#@27". Do you think a 16-18" x 2" sinewed working limb would end up too thin? What are the problems with too thin?
Title: Re: New project
Post by: sleek on March 15, 2019, 10:51:47 am
Thin is bad.  The limbs deform on release making energy transfer inefficient.  Thicker is quicker. I have built, and studied quite a bit on short bows and have made some decent ones. To get a thicker limb without increasing draw weight, you need to deflex the fade. I will write a bit about all this soon. I have about 3 typed pages of notes on this very subject that I have taken as I built them.
Title: Re: New project
Post by: Woodely on March 15, 2019, 01:25:54 pm
I have only ever built one wide bow.  I think it was 1 5/8" wide at the fades.  The wood was perfect, I was barely 10 minutes into tillering and exercising it when it blew up on the tiller stick.  Won't build another wide limb bow again, all my laminate bows end up at around 1 7/16" to 1 3/8" wide.
Title: Re: New project
Post by: simk on March 15, 2019, 01:46:55 pm
DC, for comparison, I do my moelles with 13:17 bend/lever ratio. The bending limb is 1 7/8" wide at the fade, is 38 cm long and has maybe 12-15 mm in thickness.
Title: Re: New project
Post by: sleek on March 15, 2019, 01:57:43 pm
I have only ever built one wide bow.  I think it was 1 5/8" wide at the fades.  The wood was perfect, I was barely 10 minutes into tillering and exercising it when it blew up on the tiller stick.  Won't build another wide limb bow again, all my laminate bows end up at around 1 7/16" to 1 3/8" wide.

99 things can cause a bow to blow. To wide aint one.
Title: Re: New project
Post by: PatM on March 15, 2019, 01:59:20 pm
I have only ever built one wide bow.  I think it was 1 5/8" wide at the fades.  The wood was perfect, I was barely 10 minutes into tillering and exercising it when it blew up on the tiller stick.  Won't build another wide limb bow again, all my laminate bows end up at around 1 7/16" to 1 3/8" wide.

 Surely you don't think that was the cause.
Title: Re: New project
Post by: bradsmith2010 on March 15, 2019, 04:49:29 pm
yes,, I like wide limb bows,, if it fits the design,, Badger made a comment a while back ,, that he had made some wide limb bows and surprised at the mass weight being light,, something like that,, I like thin limb bows too,, just what ever works best for the wood and design,, ok I guess I like all bows,, (-S
Title: Re: New project
Post by: Woodely on March 15, 2019, 07:20:51 pm
I have only ever built one wide bow.  I think it was 1 5/8" wide at the fades.  The wood was perfect, I was barely 10 minutes into tillering and exercising it when it blew up on the tiller stick.  Won't build another wide limb bow again, all my laminate bows end up at around 1 7/16" to 1 3/8" wide.

 Surely you don't think that was the cause.

I do as a matter of fact,  it was to thin and not enough overlapping grain .   I think that wide and thin can have a negligible effect on the woods stress limits.
Title: Re: New project
Post by: Badger on March 15, 2019, 07:44:32 pm
  The comments I made about short working areas on the limb can be easily confused. When I can get away with short working areas I dod but in most cases I need most of the limb working to avoid set. I usually leave the last 8 or 10" pretty stiff and I like longer fades like 3" or even a bit more only if I can get away with it and not take too much set. Avoiding set is my #1 priority.
Title: Re: New project
Post by: SLIMBOB on March 15, 2019, 07:45:55 pm
I’m not sure 1 5/8” at the fade qualifies as “wide” in my book. I would call that “not wide”. Somewhat “normal” even. So normal that I would bet most of the bows posted on this site are in fact wider than that. If you had argued that 4 inches wide posed a problem...might have had some takers. Even 3 inches. But at 1 5/8...you’ll have a hard time selling that that width is in anyway, anything other than...common. But I am curious to hear more on the overlapping grain...
Title: Re: New project
Post by: Woodely on March 15, 2019, 08:05:11 pm
  "curious to hear more on the overlapping grain..."     As I mentioned building laminate so its overlapping .    1 5/8"  is not wide  correct,   kind of like saying a 10' home ceiling is high, yes and no.
Title: Re: New project
Post by: sleek on March 15, 2019, 08:08:09 pm
I’m not sure 1 5/8” at the fade qualifies as “wide” in my book. I would call that “not wide”. Somewhat “normal” even. So normal that I would bet most of the bows posted on this site are in fact wider than that. If you had argued that 4 inches wide posed a problem...might have had some takers. Even 3 inches. But at 1 5/8...you’ll have a hard time selling that that width is in anyway, anything other than...common. But I am curious to hear more on the overlapping grain...

Kinda sounds like he had grain run out from back to belly rather than from side to side. Being a laminate, thats easy to do with a board.
Title: Re: New project
Post by: sleek on March 15, 2019, 08:11:19 pm
  "curious to hear more on the overlapping grain..."     As I mentioned building laminate so its overlapping .    1 5/8"  is not wide  correct,   kind of like saying a 10' home ceiling is high, yes and no.

Maybe its not wide for a pine wood bow, or willow, or balsa. By not enough overlappimg grain, do you mean your backing strip was too thin? How thin was it? What woods are you using? How many have you made to base your conclusion on? Do you have any pics so we can better understand you?
Title: Re: New project
Post by: SLIMBOB on March 15, 2019, 08:17:25 pm
Maybe I misread. Didn’t you say that this one time only wide bow was 1 5/8” at the fades?  If not, I apologize. If you did, then you defined that as “wide”. I’m just trying to follow.
Title: Re: New project
Post by: DC on March 15, 2019, 08:21:52 pm
  The comments I made about short working areas on the limb can be easily confused. When I can get away with short working areas I dod but in most cases I need most of the limb working to avoid set. I usually leave the last 8 or 10" pretty stiff and I like longer fades like 3" or even a bit more only if I can get away with it and not take too much set. Avoiding set is my #1 priority.
I agree with you on set being number one. Wouldn't a wider thinner limb be under less stress and take less set?
Title: Re: New project
Post by: sleek on March 15, 2019, 08:25:51 pm
  The comments I made about short working areas on the limb can be easily confused. When I can get away with short working areas I dod but in most cases I need most of the limb working to avoid set. I usually leave the last 8 or 10" pretty stiff and I like longer fades like 3" or even a bit more only if I can get away with it and not take too much set. Avoiding set is my #1 priority.
I agree with you on set being number one. Wouldn't a wider thinner limb be under less stress and take less set?
Yes, but there are diminishing returns in form of mass, and limb deformation on release. Limbs get rubbery as they get thin.
Title: Re: New project
Post by: PatM on March 15, 2019, 09:01:35 pm
I have only ever built one wide bow.  I think it was 1 5/8" wide at the fades.  The wood was perfect, I was barely 10 minutes into tillering and exercising it when it blew up on the tiller stick.  Won't build another wide limb bow again, all my laminate bows end up at around 1 7/16" to 1 3/8" wide.

 Surely you don't think that was the cause.

I do as a matter of fact,  it was to thin and not enough overlapping grain .   I think that wide and thin can have a negligible effect on the woods stress limits.

 You mean the wood was NOT perfect then.   Also negligible means it has virtually no effect.  You must mean negative.
Title: Re: New project
Post by: bradsmith2010 on March 16, 2019, 09:01:43 am
sleek,,,couldn't u just make the limb shorter,,to compensate for mass,,
Title: Re: New project
Post by: DC on March 16, 2019, 09:09:55 am
DC, for comparison, I do my moelles with 13:17 bend/lever ratio. The bending limb is 1 7/8" wide at the fade, is 38 cm long and has maybe 12-15 mm in thickness.
Where did you come up with 13:17 ;D ;D Is it some kind of Fibonacci sequence?
Title: Re: New project
Post by: Woodely on March 16, 2019, 09:16:29 am
  The comments I made about short working areas on the limb can be easily confused. When I can get away with short working areas I dod but in most cases I need most of the limb working to avoid set. I usually leave the last 8 or 10" pretty stiff and I like longer fades like 3" or even a bit more only if I can get away with it and not take too much set. Avoiding set is my #1 priority.

I agree with Badger on that one.

=======================================================
"You mean the wood was NOT perfect then.   Also negligible means it has virtually no effect.  You must mean negative."

Must of got up from the wrong side of the bed that day.  I would have to take that statement back and wipe it out as it does make sense as you pointed out.  At any rate it was long ago when I built such a bow, all I remember is I dont like the looks feel or tillering such a beast and will stick with bows in the 1 7/16" width or there abouts.  I like to have more meat in the thickness department to work with.  :)  When I'm tillering tapering and trapping are the last things I do to get the tiller I'am trying to achieve.
Title: Re: New project
Post by: sleek on March 16, 2019, 09:50:51 am
sleek,,,couldn't u just make the limb shorter,,to compensate for mass,,

Yes, and by natural progression of design, a thin limbed bow WILL be a short bow.
Title: Re: New project
Post by: SLIMBOB on March 16, 2019, 10:06:17 am
So, 1 7/16 wide is ideal. 1 5/8 is a beast. That’s a pretty small difference between the two extremes. That sure doesn’t leave much wiggle room. Are you sure you didn’t just mistate your point?  That would be understandable. I once said on here that back sinew wasn’t used for backing bows. Turns out I didn’t use it for that, but many people did. I was just wrong. No harm in being wrong. Remaining that way, a different story.
Title: Re: New project
Post by: Badger on March 16, 2019, 10:37:03 am
  The comments I made about short working areas on the limb can be easily confused. When I can get away with short working areas I dod but in most cases I need most of the limb working to avoid set. I usually leave the last 8 or 10" pretty stiff and I like longer fades like 3" or even a bit more only if I can get away with it and not take too much set. Avoiding set is my #1 priority.
I agree with you on set being number one. Wouldn't a wider thinner limb be under less stress and take less set?

  Yes, the less working limb I am shooting for the wider I go in the working areas.
Title: Re: New project
Post by: Woodely on March 16, 2019, 12:05:13 pm
So, 1 7/16 wide is ideal. 1 5/8 is a beast. That’s a pretty small difference between the two extremes. That sure doesn’t leave much wiggle room. Are you sure you didn’t just mistate your point?  That would be understandable. I once said on here that back sinew wasn’t used for backing bows. Turns out I didn’t use it for that, but many people did. I was just wrong. No harm in being wrong. Remaining that way, a different story.

Tongues get twisted as do typos,  ok maybe 1 13/16"  is a beast.  At any rate did not know this Forum was so stuck on particulars  and Rocket science wizardry.     ;D
Title: Re: New project
Post by: sleek on March 16, 2019, 12:29:34 pm
So, 1 7/16 wide is ideal. 1 5/8 is a beast. That’s a pretty small difference between the two extremes. That sure doesn’t leave much wiggle room. Are you sure you didn’t just mistate your point?  That would be understandable. I once said on here that back sinew wasn’t used for backing bows. Turns out I didn’t use it for that, but many people did. I was just wrong. No harm in being wrong. Remaining that way, a different story.

Tongues get twisted as do typos,  ok maybe 1 13/16"  is a beast.  At any rate did not know this Forum was so stuck on particulars  and Rocket science wizardry.     ;D

Well yeah, thats just how magic works man...
Title: Re: New project
Post by: bradsmith2010 on March 16, 2019, 12:53:22 pm
rocket science wizadry,,,, I like that,, )P(
Title: Re: New project
Post by: DC on March 16, 2019, 01:06:50 pm
OK the project will continue on but with a change that put's some limits on. I was cleaning up under my bandsaw and found a piece of yew that is 23" long. With a finger joint splice in the handle being 2 1/2" and the 3" "V" for the lever that leaves me about 14" working limb. Pretty short but the Yew was on it's way to the fire pit so I'll save Goats ERC piece for something else. If this breaks, well it will have used up a couple of week of shop time and I won't have to find room for "another bow" ;D ;D Using Simks formula that means about 17" lever, that will be about a 62" bow.
Title: Re: New project
Post by: maitus on March 16, 2019, 01:18:13 pm
Everything about limbs is very well described in Adam Karpowicz book. General rules for hornbow limb dimensions work as well for wooden bows. Suggest to read :).  After reading this book, i got 171 f/s out of elm selfbow with 32 grams arrow.
Title: Re: New project
Post by: DC on March 16, 2019, 06:30:48 pm
I wish I could find a printed copy, not fond of Ipads.

Some pictures of the days work. Cutting the glue up apart and splicing the handle. Picture of my finger joint jig. I cut down on the deflex from my usual 11° to about 9° Had company so I didn't get much done.
Title: Re: New project
Post by: DC on March 17, 2019, 07:43:09 pm
Today I fit the recurves "V" joints and glued on a "power lam" which is just a splice reinforcement. Flattened the belly of the handle and made a cover for the belly side of the splice. Then I glued it all up. I'm thinking I will use a Maple backing rather than sinew. I can get Maple and have a limited amount of sinew. I'll save the sinew for the ERC I was originally going to use for this.
Title: Re: New project
Post by: sleek on March 18, 2019, 06:18:02 am
Thus is looking very interesting. What are your hopes for draw weight and length?
Title: Re: New project
Post by: leonwood on March 18, 2019, 06:36:40 am
That looks pretty good to me! I would use the maple ;D
I did build a few ipé/bamboo deflex/reflex mollies and they where all good shooters. Building a wide elderberry molly with reflexed levers at the moment... Might deflex at the handle just for the fun of it!
Title: Re: New project
Post by: PatM on March 18, 2019, 06:47:51 am
I would use sinew and the Maple.  ;)   We don't see enough tri-lams with sinew as one of the lams.
Title: Re: New project
Post by: leonwood on March 18, 2019, 07:17:26 am
I would use sinew and the Maple.  ;)   We don't see enough tri-lams with sinew as one of the lams.

Agreed, we need more tri-lams! Or... skip the yew altogether and add a horn belly.
(Sorry just fooling around a bit :o)
Title: Re: New project
Post by: Bayou Ben on March 18, 2019, 07:46:51 am
Nice project DC.  So just deflex in the limbs meaning the only reflex is coming form the glued on recurve/levers? 
Title: Re: New project
Post by: DC on March 18, 2019, 09:34:46 am
Sleek- I make all my bows right around 40# so I can shoot them. :D It's 62" TTT at the moment. Not a shorty by any means. I may take an inch off the tips depending on how much reflex I end up with.
Pat and Leon_ it will be a tri-lam but one of the lams will be tung oil ;D ;D I guess that would make it a quad lam.
Ben- I'm planning on gluing a little reflex in when the maple goes on.
Title: Re: New project
Post by: simk on March 18, 2019, 09:48:52 am
Nice project DC and fast progress.

Quote
Where did you come up with 13:17 ;D ;D Is it some kind of Fibonacci sequence?

In fact not so complicated/scientific. Read about moelles in the www and found a discussion on paleo planet where somebody suggested the 13/17 ratio. Seemed reasonable to me for a first try.

Looking forward to see that bow next week  ;D ;D

Cheers
Title: Re: New project
Post by: DC on March 18, 2019, 10:04:37 am
It just makes you wonder, what an oddball set of numbers. There must be some kind of reasoning behind it. Is that actual measurement or is it a ratio? This one will be about 13" working and 14" lever. I've never made a Molle before so I'm on dangerous ground.
Title: Re: New project
Post by: DC on March 18, 2019, 10:13:21 am
Simk-Could you tell me the dimensions of the levers on the Molle you posted the other day. It's mostly the width and thickness I'm interested in. I'm getting a little chicken looking at this ;D ;D
Title: Re: New project
Post by: DC on March 18, 2019, 03:37:01 pm
Before I get ahead of myself I'm wondering if I should beef up the transition from limb to lever like in the picture but both sides? The reason there is no taper there is that the recurves were just a trial I had kicking around and now I'm wondering if that is going to be a weak spot.
Title: Re: New project
Post by: sleek on March 18, 2019, 03:45:56 pm
I think laying a backing over the entire thing will do you fine. How long is that splice?
Title: Re: New project
Post by: DC on March 18, 2019, 04:37:16 pm
3" This means that I can't have a nice short transition from limb to lever but I knew that when I decided to put a splice there and I was a bit chicken to use a shorter splice.
Title: Re: New project
Post by: sleek on March 18, 2019, 04:58:27 pm
3" This means that I can't have a nice short transition from limb to lever but I knew that when I decided to put a splice there and I was a bit chicken to use a shorter splice.

At 3 inches, id probably put an underlay on it as well. And if you want to have a nice transition,  you may consider side lams, one on each side of the splice, going from splice into the recurve. I have done them and they look amazing.
Title: Re: New project
Post by: DC on March 18, 2019, 05:08:57 pm
The side lams sound nice and would beef up the part of the joint I'm concerned with (sideways bend) so I will do that instead of what I posted. I'm not so sure why I would want an underlay though. The joint is in compression and should be good with normal bending. have you ever posted a bow with side lams. How far did you run them past the splice?
Title: Re: New project
Post by: sleek on March 18, 2019, 05:58:46 pm
The underlay and overlay sandwich the splice for more strength, but, im a chicken after a few bad results. I have posted a biw with side lams, give me time to find them.
Title: Re: New project
Post by: DC on March 18, 2019, 06:12:33 pm
Don't put yourself out looking for them. If I want to see them bad enough I'll find them. There's only about 5000 posts ;D ;D
Title: Re: New project
Post by: PatM on March 18, 2019, 06:26:13 pm
The backing would hold that together but side plates are easy to do. An undelray would box it in nicely and cover the exposed belly splice
Title: Re: New project
Post by: sleek on March 18, 2019, 06:34:43 pm
Don't put yourself out looking for them. If I want to see them bad enough I'll find them. There's only about 5000 posts ;D ;D

Oh dear God no. Dont do that to yourself. Going backwards through my posts is a good way to de educate yourself.
Title: Re: New project
Post by: simk on March 19, 2019, 01:08:56 am
Quote
Simk-Could you tell me the dimensions of the levers on the Molle you posted the other day

Hello DC, checked it again:

Grip 90mm
Main bending zone incl 40mm fade: 420mm
Lever incl. fade 320mm
= 17/30 // 13/30
Main bending zone @ the fades 46mm tapering to 36mm @ outer fades
Thickness @fades 14mm, mid limb 12 mm, @outer fades 11mm (incl. about 3mm sinew)
Levers start 24mm thickness, 21mm width, tapering to the tips.

Lower limb is 20mm shorter than top limb but same 17/13 ratio.

I also did this elm selfbow with exact same measurements:
Quote
http://www.primitivearcher.com/smf/index.php/topic,64889.0.html
Limb thicknesses are: 13mm at the inner fades, 12mm midlimb and 12mm before outer fades.

For tillering you should be aware that it will loose positive tiller after shooting in. I therefore just added another 7 gramms of sinew to my lower limb yesterday. My consultant Wolfgang told me that this is normal with this design. Edit: I think it's the sinew streching a bit due to much bigger stress on the lower limb. Maybe for future projects I will do the lower limb same length as the upper...

Always at your service!

Cheers
Title: Re: New project
Post by: DC on March 19, 2019, 10:38:33 am
Thanks Simon :D
Title: Re: New project
Post by: sleek on March 19, 2019, 02:32:22 pm
Here DC, this one has side lams. Im trying to find the other posts about it.

https://www.primitivearcher.com/smf/index.php/topic,61822.msg864750.html#msg864750

They dont go all the way to where your splice is, but, they can be made to.
Title: Re: New project
Post by: PatM on March 19, 2019, 02:43:20 pm
http://www.primitivearcher.com/smf/index.php/topic,61463.15.html
Title: Re: New project
Post by: bradsmith2010 on March 19, 2019, 02:51:32 pm
DC,, I have had the bottom limb shift a bit ,, even when same length,,I think shooting in while you tiller will help,, maybe leave a few pounds till you shoot it a bunch,, so you can adjust,, adding sinew is an option as stated,, I think it just takes sinew longer to settle in , than all wood bow,,
Title: Re: New project
Post by: sleek on March 19, 2019, 02:52:15 pm
Thanks Pat! Boy, i need to talk less and build more. Yeesh. How long did it take you to find that?

DC, the way i did the handle splice with horn side plates is how id reccomend you do your tip side lams. Id even use horn. Wouldnt need much thickness.
Title: Re: New project
Post by: DC on March 19, 2019, 02:56:53 pm
I've already done it. Not as nice as yours but it will stiffen it where I wanted. I don't like trying to blend the two where the dark wood tapers into nothing. Never looks good. I'll call this one a prototype :D I'll take a closer look at yours now that Pat found it
Title: Re: New project
Post by: sleek on March 19, 2019, 02:58:49 pm
Oh my God. I just fell in love. Drop dead elegant. Damn. Much wow.
Title: Re: New project
Post by: bradsmith2010 on March 19, 2019, 02:59:50 pm
that looks great
Title: Re: New project
Post by: DC on March 19, 2019, 03:05:06 pm
Now I'm trying to decide if I should drive into town to get some epoxy. I'm ready to put the backing on and ran out of epoxy.
Title: Re: New project
Post by: sleek on March 19, 2019, 03:06:50 pm
Why is this even a question? Get to it! Im excited to see this build happen!!!
Title: Re: New project
Post by: PatM on March 19, 2019, 03:25:47 pm
Thanks Pat! Boy, i need to talk less and build more. Yeesh. How long did it take you to find that?

DC, the way i did the handle splice with horn side plates is how id reccomend you do your tip side lams. Id even use horn. Wouldnt need much thickness.

 Took 10 seconds with the right advanced search parameters.    "wood sinew horsebow" and your name.
Title: Re: New project
Post by: PatM on March 19, 2019, 03:59:22 pm
I've already done it. Not as nice as yours but it will stiffen it where I wanted. I don't like trying to blend the two where the dark wood tapers into nothing. Never looks good. I'll call this one a prototype :D I'll take a closer look at yours now that Pat found it

Take a look at this x-ray of the Khotan bow.
http://atarn.org/letters/khotan_bow/back_xray2.jpg
Title: Re: New project
Post by: sleek on March 19, 2019, 04:04:30 pm
I've already done it. Not as nice as yours but it will stiffen it where I wanted. I don't like trying to blend the two where the dark wood tapers into nothing. Never looks good. I'll call this one a prototype :D I'll take a closer look at yours now that Pat found it

Take a look at this x-ray of the Khotan bow.
http://atarn.org/letters/khotan_bow/back_xray2.jpg

Well dagum, looks like he nailed it. And dense as that is, its probably horn.
Title: Re: New project
Post by: PatM on March 19, 2019, 05:02:04 pm
Bone actually.
Title: Re: New project
Post by: DC on March 19, 2019, 05:11:35 pm
Impatience won out. I went and bought some. Close to $80 a liter(US quart roughly)Overnight is such a conveient time for epoxy to cure rather than stare at it all day. So, one limb backing on, out starting to cure in the sun. 70° here today thanks to some hot air drifting up from the States. My laser thermometer says the rubber strapping is 97° Life is good(sorry Pappy)
Title: Re: New project
Post by: DC on March 19, 2019, 05:20:28 pm

Take a look at this x-ray of the Khotan bow.
http://atarn.org/letters/khotan_bow/back_xray2.jpg

I'm not sure what I'm looking at. That looks like the grip of a bow. Do you have a link to the write-up, if there is one?
Title: Re: New project
Post by: PatM on March 19, 2019, 05:40:37 pm
It is an x ray of a siyah from the belly side  on a wide limbed narrow tipped ancient bow.     You're not looking at the whole bow.  Just the  pics of each end.  The longer plate is missing on the top left as the bow was a bit fragmented.  Those are multiple horn strips on the belly.

 I was just using it to illustrate how boxing in the splices was a  common technique with wrapping usually backing it up.

 There is a write-up on the bow on the ATARN site.

Here:  http://www.atarn.org/chinese/khotan_bow.htm
Title: Re: New project
Post by: DC on March 19, 2019, 06:09:52 pm
Thanks Pat, that is very interesting, I'll be going back there.
Title: Re: New project
Post by: DC on March 19, 2019, 06:16:05 pm
Does anyone have any suggestions on how to tidy up a joint like this. The dark wood just tapers out to nothing and I can't figure a way to get a nice line.
Title: Re: New project
Post by: sleek on March 19, 2019, 06:35:05 pm
Does anyone have any suggestions on how to tidy up a joint like this. The dark wood just tapers out to nothing and I can't figure a way to get a nice line.

Paint, a string or sinew wrap, stain, some type of snake skin layed down the side, or even better, make a small carving there. Or put a shallow groove down the side, that will eat into the ligjt feathering and make it not as noticable.
Title: Re: New project
Post by: PatM on March 19, 2019, 06:37:15 pm
Tough to clean up a transition like that.  It's likely always  going to retain a bit of a feathered look.    In the future you may want to take the pieces the full length.
Title: Re: New project
Post by: DC on March 19, 2019, 06:47:09 pm
Pat's right, I should have carried them to the end. I don't normally like thread wraps close to the end because they sometimes bridge over the string groove. This may be far enough from the tip to avoid that. If I brought a snakeskin into the house I would spend the rest of my marriage(which wouldn't be long) in the wood shed. ;D
Title: Re: New project
Post by: sleek on March 19, 2019, 07:15:02 pm
Pat's right, I should have carried them to the end. I don't normally like thread wraps close to the end because they sometimes bridge over the string groove. This may be far enough from the tip to avoid that. If I brought a snakeskin into the house I would spend the rest of my marriage(which wouldn't be long) in the wood shed. ;D

A woodshed makes a good bow makin spot, just sayin :)
Title: Re: New project
Post by: bradsmith2010 on March 20, 2019, 07:42:16 am
Paint could even it,,.just a small dark strip,..a diamond shape would look nice too
Title: Re: New project
Post by: Woodely on March 20, 2019, 08:18:21 am
Does anyone have any suggestions on how to tidy up a joint like this. The dark wood just tapers out to nothing and I can't figure a way to get a nice line.
You can make a very slight gentle cut with a razor knife then sand across the limb gently and you will end up with a straight line.

I have some bows like that,  its added character... 8)  ..people know I'am carrying a handmade bow even if it looks 95% like a factory bow.   :)
Title: Re: New project
Post by: DC on March 20, 2019, 08:41:49 am
I think that surface is going to be curved which would mean I'd have to cut a curved rather than straight line with the razor knife. I'm not very good with free handing stuff. I'll give it a shot and see how it goes. It will be tough to get a nice crisp line with sandpaper. Fine paper is the key I'll bet. Thanks
Title: Re: New project
Post by: sleek on March 20, 2019, 08:53:13 am
I think that surface is going to be curved which would mean I'd have to cut a curved rather than straight line with the razor knife. I'm not very good with free handing stuff. I'll give it a shot and see how it goes. It will be tough to get a nice crisp line with sandpaper. Fine paper is the key I'll bet. Thanks

Mask it off with thick tape, then use the edge of tape as a guide to cut your line. Leave the tape in place and lightly sand, remove the tape and burnish the transition to smooth it. Then when you apply your finish, go heavy in that area to allow the finish to fill any remaining step from the transition.
Title: Re: New project
Post by: ohma2 on March 20, 2019, 10:11:53 am
DC ive said it before but you sir are amazing and a fine craftsman ,i love the things you come up with and do :OK
Title: Re: New project
Post by: DC on March 20, 2019, 10:12:49 am
First limb unwrapped. Glue line is good, I'm happy. You can see how much reflex I glued in. It was pretty heavy so I didn't push it.
Title: Re: New project
Post by: DC on March 20, 2019, 10:14:00 am
DC ive said it before but you sir are amazing and a fine craftsman ,i love the things you come up with and do :OK
Ah, shucks, I just get lucky once in a while. Thanks a lot.
Title: Re: New project
Post by: Bayou Ben on March 20, 2019, 10:33:28 am
I have to agree with Steve.  You ask questions but back them up with action.  I love the get it done attitude  :OK
Looking forward to the rest of this build.

I use a scraper to get the lines like I want on glued on riser transitions.  You can get the shape you want with a little patience. 
Title: Re: New project
Post by: sleek on March 20, 2019, 10:57:55 am
When you start to tiller this thing, STAY AWAY FROM THOSE LIMB SLICES! If ypu jave to, wrap them with tape to avoid an accifldent.  Also, dont let the fades bend much. They should bend last, thats where your last 3 inches of draw length come from. The bending should start from the outer limbs slowly working its way in.

Well, that's my advice anyway from having built bows of this shape, but 10 inches shorter.

Now that I said all that, what are your plans on how to tiller it?
Title: Re: New project
Post by: DC on March 20, 2019, 11:34:14 am
Scrape away at it until it looks right?? When you say wrap them with tape is that to strengthen them or just to make sure I don't scrape there? I would think that if ain't strong enough to take tillering it ain't going to last anyway.
Plans? I'm going to watch the thickness very closely. This one is 2" wide at the fades. I've never made a bow this wide before. The backing is 1/8" so I figure if I start to get close to 3/8" thick I'll start to side tiller. I guess I'll have to temper that with how close I am to full draw. We'll see. I just said temper. I was going to heat treat the limbs before glueup. Just flat forget. Crap. Oh well the second limb is glued and sitting in the sun. We'll see tomorrow.
Title: Re: New project
Post by: sleek on March 20, 2019, 12:40:10 pm
I wish I had a direct comparison of yew to osage, as a ratio in compression. If i did, i could tell you exactly how wide to make that bow for the draw weight you are shooting for. Have you settled on what your expectations are yet?
Title: Re: New project
Post by: DC on March 20, 2019, 01:23:28 pm
40# I make all my bows 40#
Title: Re: New project
Post by: sleek on March 20, 2019, 01:33:11 pm
Do you have any 40 pound yew bows that are that long?
Title: Re: New project
Post by: sleek on March 20, 2019, 02:51:30 pm
I ask because if you have a yew bow that is at least close to that long, and with an acceptable amount of set, then you can do this to get a darn near perfect idea of how to procede

Measure the yew bows working ( bending ) length
Measure your new bows working length.
Make a ratio of working length between the yew bow and this new bow.
Add 1/4 inch of width to the measurment of width on the yew bow for every inch of set. ( This number is what i use for osage, perhaps yew guys have a better sugestion )
Then, say your bow you are using for measurements has 2 inches of set.
Add 1/4 for every inch of set it took, so, 1/2 inches added.
Now, assume 28 inches of working length on the yew bow, ans 17 on this new one. Thats a ratio of 1.647:1
Now multiply that 1.647 by the width of the yew bow PLUS the adhustment for its set
That andwer is how wide you sould make your new limbs and not be too wide for its draw weight.

This is important because width is what controls the draw weight. Too wide, waisted mass, slower more inefficient bow. Too narrow, set.
Title: Re: New project
Post by: Deerhunter21 on March 20, 2019, 03:17:49 pm
WOW! thats alot for my mind. whoo. I gotta sit down! (W
Title: Re: New project
Post by: DC on March 20, 2019, 04:10:01 pm
Sleek, did you repeat the "add 1/4 for set" or do I do that twice?
Move over Deerhunter I'll be sitting beside you ;D
Title: Re: New project
Post by: sleek on March 20, 2019, 04:21:16 pm
Sleek, did you repeat the "add 1/4 for set" or do I do that twice?
Move over Deerhunter I'll be sitting beside you ;D

I did lots of editing to that post while typing. You only add the 1/4 once. My appologies.
Title: Re: New project
Post by: DC on March 20, 2019, 04:26:49 pm
No problem, just making sure.
Title: Re: New project
Post by: sleek on March 20, 2019, 04:33:51 pm
I want to stress, you may be better off adding 3/8 an inch for every inch of set. Or, ask the yew bow guys for measurments on the bow they have that has taken the least set. Then use that bow as your reference.
Title: Re: New project
Post by: DC on March 20, 2019, 05:04:57 pm
I'll try it with my best bow. It's a boo backed yew that only took about 1/2" of set. It has a 24" working limb and I think this one is going to be 14-15".
Title: Re: New project
Post by: sleek on March 20, 2019, 05:24:46 pm
Lol, my guess for working limb length was in the ballpark at least. So your ratio is 1.71 not the 1.6 something I guessed at earlier.

So, take the width of your bamboo yew bow, add 1/4 ( or 3/8 , your call i dont know yew )  to it, and multiply that by yout 1.71 ratio.

Do that every two inches of the bows working limb, starting at the fades working outward until you hit the stiff part on your new bow.

With the difference in backing material, for the tension side of things, im not certain how well your backing strip matches yews compression abilities. If yew wins out, you may consider rounding the belly to give the back more surface area than the belly. A reverse trap really. How much do you know about your combination of wood there?
Title: Re: New project
Post by: Woodely on March 20, 2019, 05:33:28 pm
I'll try it with my best bow. It's a boo backed yew that only took about 1/2" of set. It has a 24" working limb and I think this one is going to be 14-15".

I try to get at least 25" or more of working limb.  14-15"  thats dangerous Territory for this cowboy. But then again I'm not a master bowyer.    :P
Title: Re: New project
Post by: PatM on March 20, 2019, 05:42:12 pm
 I like to add up the total working limb and use that to calculate the max draw length.
Title: Re: New project
Post by: DC on March 20, 2019, 05:47:48 pm
Going with your system I'm 1/8" narrow but that depends on how accurately I measured the working lengths. It will be close.
Title: Re: New project
Post by: DC on March 20, 2019, 05:49:48 pm
I like to add up the total working limb and use that to calculate the max draw length.
So I have 28" of WL. Does that mean 14" or 28" DL. Or something completely different?
Title: Re: New project
Post by: DC on March 20, 2019, 05:51:00 pm
Also I have about 10° of deflex, that's going to buy me some draw length isn't it?
Title: Re: New project
Post by: sleek on March 20, 2019, 05:56:30 pm
1/8 isnt much, but per my calculations, you have enough wood to make a 37 pounder without set ( hypothetically speaking because again, 1/4 is what I use for osage ).

This should be a good build. Just be very cautios during the tiller. Id use Badgers no set tiller method, make extensive use of a long string, never overdraw past your 40 pounds.. you know, all the rules... i am beyond excited to see this bow come around. Please keep a log and post it of your draw weight and length as you go. Also, pics please.

This design really likes the tips to bend first and fade to bend slightly and last. Its doesnt give much room for error. Take it slow... but hurry up and shoot it ready! Im dyin over here!
Title: Re: New project
Post by: sleek on March 20, 2019, 05:57:53 pm
Also I have about 10° of deflex, that's going to buy me some draw length isn't it?

Yes, it will help lots, but deflex oddly enough, stresses the fades before any other part of the biw making them very susceptible to set early on in the game. Be careful.
Title: Re: New project
Post by: DC on March 20, 2019, 05:58:24 pm
Oh, I have used maple backed yew a few times. I prefer boo backed but that may be mostly aesthetics. I think the effectiveness of a Maple backing depends on the Maple much more than a Boo backing. Put that another way, you can tell if the boo is good by looking at it(most times) where as maple may have more runout in one piece than the next and it won't show that much.
Title: Re: New project
Post by: sleek on March 20, 2019, 05:59:02 pm
I like to add up the total working limb and use that to calculate the max draw length.

How do you calculate based off that?
Title: Re: New project
Post by: DC on March 20, 2019, 06:01:12 pm
Please keep a log and post it of your draw weight and length as you go. Also, pics please.
I'm not sure what the log will show. It will just be 40@10, 40@11 etc. What else do you want? Yup on the pictures.
Title: Re: New project
Post by: sleek on March 20, 2019, 06:02:06 pm
Oh, I have used maple backed yew a few times. I prefer boo backed but that may be mostly aesthetics. I think the effectiveness of a Maple backing depends on the Maple much more than a Boo backing. Put that another way, you can tell if the boo is good by looking at it(most times) where as maple may have more runout in one piece than the next and it won't show that much.

Ok, so it sounds like maple is a decent match for yew, and you are familiar with it. Awesome.

Sorry if i am butting too much into your build here. I love this design, and its killing me im not actually there helping build it. I hope my excitement of this isnt overbearing.
Title: Re: New project
Post by: sleek on March 20, 2019, 06:03:03 pm
Please keep a log and post it of your draw weight and length as you go. Also, pics please.
I'm not sure what the log will show. It will just be 40@10, 40@11 etc. What else do you want? Yup on the pictures.

Are you familiar with Badgers method of no set tillering?
Title: Re: New project
Post by: PatM on March 20, 2019, 06:04:25 pm
I like to add up the total working limb and use that to calculate the max draw length.

How do you calculate based off that?

 I add up the total of the two limbs that actually are bending to any degree and figure that the max draw should approach that, if not equal it.
Title: Re: New project
Post by: DC on March 20, 2019, 06:07:39 pm
Please keep a log and post it of your draw weight and length as you go. Also, pics please.
I'm not sure what the log will show. It will just be 40@10, 40@11 etc. What else do you want? Yup on the pictures.

Are you familiar with Badgers method of no set tillering?
Yup
Title: Re: New project
Post by: DC on March 20, 2019, 06:09:22 pm
Oh, I have used maple backed yew a few times. I prefer boo backed but that may be mostly aesthetics. I think the effectiveness of a Maple backing depends on the Maple much more than a Boo backing. Put that another way, you can tell if the boo is good by looking at it(most times) where as maple may have more runout in one piece than the next and it won't show that much.

Ok, so it sounds like maple is a decent match for yew, and you are familiar with it. Awesome.

Sorry if i am butting too much into your build here. I love this design, and its killing me im not actually there helping build it. I hope my excitement of this isnt overbearing.

I had to go back and reread the last couple of pages. Things were coming in too quick.
Title: Re: New project
Post by: DC on March 20, 2019, 07:02:43 pm
Please keep a log and post it of your draw weight and length as you go. Also, pics please.
I'm not sure what the log will show. It will just be 40@10, 40@11 etc. What else do you want? Yup on the pictures.

Are you familiar with Badgers method of no set tillering?

Is this related to the log. Maybe I'm not so familiar. More info please :D
Title: Re: New project
Post by: sleek on March 20, 2019, 07:06:47 pm
Please keep a log and post it of your draw weight and length as you go. Also, pics please.
I'm not sure what the log will show. It will just be 40@10, 40@11 etc. What else do you want? Yup on the pictures.

Are you familiar with Badgers method of no set tillering?
Yup

Its up to you as it really takes forever, im just looking for a record to compare my builds to, to see how the design holds up on my shorter bows compared to longer ones.

What im asking is this:


Pull the bow to 11 inches. Record weight. Then pull to 12, record weight. Then pull back to 11 AGAIN, re-record its weight, then go to 13. Its a forward 2 back one type of thing, all the way to 40 pounds. Then scrape and start over again at 11 inches.

What this does is shows how the bows energy storage capabilities change as draw length is increased, and exactly where set starts to take place on the draw.  If you were 28 pounds at 11, and 31#@12, then pull back to 11 inches again, and you are NOT at 28 but say 26 now, then set happened right there.

All these FD curves you plot as the bow advances through the tiller process shows alot. It can help design better ones. Like, you see early draw weight drop,  and that stored energy doesnt pick up again until later in the draw, you know that perhaps mkre reflex or longer recurves may help. You can see when the recurves start to open up and the stresses it places on the wood, and many other things. Also, I want to compare this data to my bows as I make them. Id like a comparrison between longer version and my shorter ones, especially of different woods.
Title: Re: New project
Post by: sleek on March 20, 2019, 07:21:56 pm
I like to add up the total working limb and use that to calculate the max draw length.

How do you calculate based off that?

 I add up the total of the two limbs that actually are bending to any degree and figure that the max draw should approach that, if not equal it.

So you ONLY account for working length, not over all, not even levers?
Title: Re: New project
Post by: PatM on March 20, 2019, 07:42:14 pm
That's right since those are the only parts actually under true stress.
Title: Re: New project
Post by: DC on March 20, 2019, 07:46:11 pm
Quote
Its up to you as it really takes forever, im just looking for a record to compare my builds to, to see how the design holds up on my shorter bows compared to longer ones.

What im asking is this:


Pull the bow to 11 inches. Record weight. Then pull to 12, record weight. Then pull back to 11 AGAIN, re-record its weight, then go to 13. Its a forward 2 back one type of thing, all the way to 40 pounds. Then scrape and start over again at 11 inches.


I'm confused. When do I start this? What if I get 40# at 11". I can't go over 40#, that's my target weight. Sorry, I'm missing something here.
Title: Re: New project
Post by: DC on March 20, 2019, 08:13:12 pm
I'm rereading a bunch of no set tillering posts. In one Badger said,". Say you just braced the bow, check your weight at say 18", now excercise at 19", check weight at 18, excersice at 20" check weight at 18, excercise at 21" check weight at 18". Do this all the way to target weight at about 24'. "

Do you remove any wood during this?
Title: Re: New project
Post by: sleek on March 21, 2019, 03:48:44 am
I'm rereading a bunch of no set tillering posts. In one Badger said,". Say you just braced the bow, check your weight at say 18", now excercise at 19", check weight at 18, excersice at 20" check weight at 18, excercise at 21" check weight at 18". Do this all the way to target weight at about 24'. "

Do you remove any wood during this?

You remove wood like you normally would, when you see a tiller problem, or you hit your draw weight and need more scrapes to pull further, nothing special there. This is all about how to approach your draw weight on the tree, and it ONLY works on a bow that has just had wood freshly removed and the limbs have not been flexed yet. All flexing 100% must happen on the scale.
Title: Re: New project
Post by: sleek on March 21, 2019, 04:04:45 am
That's right since those are the only parts actually under true stress.

So, a bow for you that has 24 inches working limb that is 58 inches long, you will pull it the same draw length as a bow that has 24 inches working limb and is 66 inches long?  You dont account for the string angle at the tips, and radius of bend at the working section of the bow? Is this just to keep things simple and safe?
Title: Re: New project
Post by: PatM on March 21, 2019, 04:59:52 am
That's right since those are the only parts actually under true stress.

So, a bow for you that has 24 inches working limb that is 58 inches long, you will pull it the same draw length as a bow that has 24 inches working limb and is 66 inches long?  You dont account for the string angle at the tips, and radius of bend at the working section of the bow? Is this just to keep things simple and safe?

  Yes, with adjustments to width of the working limb to compensate.
Title: Re: New project
Post by: sleek on March 21, 2019, 06:13:42 am
That's right since those are the only parts actually under true stress.

So, a bow for you that has 24 inches working limb that is 58 inches long, you will pull it the same draw length as a bow that has 24 inches working limb and is 66 inches long?  You dont account for the string angle at the tips, and radius of bend at the working section of the bow? Is this just to keep things simple and safe?

  Yes, with adjustments to width of the working limb to compensate.

Obviously that works, but it is being overly cautious. I dont think you are getting everything out of the bows that they have to offer either.  That's fine of course, not nocking it, but a lot more performance can be had doing it this way.
Title: Re: New project
Post by: PatM on March 21, 2019, 06:27:29 am
That's right since those are the only parts actually under true stress.

So, a bow for you that has 24 inches working limb that is 58 inches long, you will pull it the same draw length as a bow that has 24 inches working limb and is 66 inches long?  You dont account for the string angle at the tips, and radius of bend at the working section of the bow? Is this just to keep things simple and safe?

  Yes, with adjustments to width of the working limb to compensate.

Obviously that works, but it is being overly cautious. I dont think you are getting everything out of the bows that they have to offer either.  That's fine of course, not nocking it, but a lot more performance can be had doing it this way.

 You must be misunderstanding.  I am bending the working limb more than anyone recommends.
Title: Re: New project
Post by: sleek on March 21, 2019, 06:31:50 am
That's right since those are the only parts actually under true stress.

So, a bow for you that has 24 inches working limb that is 58 inches long, you will pull it the same draw length as a bow that has 24 inches working limb and is 66 inches long?  You dont account for the string angle at the tips, and radius of bend at the working section of the bow? Is this just to keep things simple and safe?

  Yes, with adjustments to width of the working limb to compensate.

Obviously that works, but it is being overly cautious. I dont think you are getting everything out of the bows that they have to offer either.  That's fine of course, not nocking it, but a lot more performance can be had doing it this way.

 You must be misunderstanding.  I am bending the working limb more than anyone recommends.

I was mis understanding. So, you would say his 14 inches of working limb allows a 28 inch draw?
Title: Re: New project
Post by: PatM on March 21, 2019, 06:52:06 am
  Yes, that would be my theoretical limit give or take a little.
Title: Re: New project
Post by: sleek on March 21, 2019, 07:05:23 am
Gotcha. I do think its odd you dont factor in over all bow length, as that changes your string angle at the tips, and as a direct result, how much you are actually bending the bow. I do like how you have gone against the standard method of half a bows length though. I hope to see thay mantra disappear.
Title: Re: New project
Post by: Bayou Ben on March 21, 2019, 07:10:59 am
I'm rereading a bunch of no set tillering posts. In one Badger said,". Say you just braced the bow, check your weight at say 18", now excercise at 19", check weight at 18, excersice at 20" check weight at 18, excercise at 21" check weight at 18". Do this all the way to target weight at about 24'. "

Do you remove any wood during this?
In this sequence he isn't removing wood.  When he goes back to baseline draw, 18", the weight hasn't changed so he can now go one 1 inch further. 
When you go back to baseline and the weight has changed, then you need to do something (or accept set).  Reduce weight by removing wood evenly, or find where the limb could work more.  I normally like to gain an 1" or so after a wood removal session or when I go out 3 or 4 inches and my base line weight hasn't changed.  So I would set my base to 19" now and start over again. 
Title: Re: New project
Post by: PatM on March 21, 2019, 08:41:09 am
Gotcha. I do think its odd you dont factor in over all bow length, as that changes your string angle at the tips, and as a direct result, how much you are actually bending the bow. I do like how you have gone against the standard method of half a bows length though. I hope to see thay mantra disappear.

 That's just because I'm only using it as a broad gauge and not  looking much beyond that.    I make a bow longer so that I can get a long draw so it probably corresponds pretty well either way.
  I am also talking about bows similar to the one on this thread where the bending section is quite defined. Recurves and stiff tips.
Title: Re: New project
Post by: Woodely on March 21, 2019, 08:43:19 am
I guess you guys are in your own league here on this build.
Is this some sort of new Mathematical approach for tillering and bow building. Calculating weight, draw length, 13:17 bend/lever ratio and limb length according to some past experiments.  Is this better than tillering for Dummies. At the end of the day is the bow indestrucable built this way.
Title: Re: New project
Post by: sleek on March 21, 2019, 08:48:33 am
I guess you guys are in your own league here on this build.
Is this some sort of new Mathematical approach for tillering and bow building. Calculating weight, draw length, 13:17 bend/lever ratio and limb length according to some past experiments.  Is this better than tillering for Dummies. At the end of the day is the bow indestrucable built this way.

No, not indestructable in the least. As matter if fact, this builds it as close to the point of self destruction as possible, without crossing the line.  High performance is on the edge of limits. This method takes you there but carefully monitored wood conditions so damage doesnt sneak up on you, you stare at it the entire time. Its an extreme sport building this way.
Title: Re: New project
Post by: DC on March 21, 2019, 09:20:36 am
I guess you guys are in your own league here on this build.
Is this some sort of new Mathematical approach for tillering and bow building. Calculating weight, draw length, 13:17 bend/lever ratio and limb length according to some past experiments.  Is this better than tillering for Dummies. At the end of the day is the bow indestrucable built this way.

It's just a way of checking how you are doing for set. You go back and forth on the tree to try and catch any set as soon as it starts. Before you can actually see it. No math there. I'll go as far a grade school arithmetic but not math. My mind just glazes over when I see brackets and stuff. I still think the 13:17 is funny. It's so close to 3 to 4 but maybe the prime numbers made it look cool. Draw length according to working limb rather than total limb makes sense but I have to think about that some more. No rocket science, just shade tree engineering for those of us that just "have to know how things work". Does it make a better bow? Marginally. Won't kill a deer any deader. You might win more beer using these methods ;D
Title: Re: New project
Post by: DC on March 21, 2019, 09:23:16 am
Sleek, I'll try and keep track as best as I can. I still haven't quite figured how I'm going to write this all down in an understandable way but we'll see. I'll be out there shortly.
Title: Re: New project
Post by: DC on March 21, 2019, 12:05:05 pm
OK I've got it all trimmed up and temp nocks on. One limb took the glued in reflex a tad better so I'll make it the bottom limb for now. I put it on the tiller with a long string that hangs about 7"and pulled it to 9". Got 36# exercised a 10" about 20 times, back to 9", got 36# again. 10" was actually 47# so I went too heavy. Pic is 9"
Title: Re: New project
Post by: Bayou Ben on March 21, 2019, 12:17:49 pm
Well you know you didn't hurt anything; the weight didn't drop at all. 
11 lb gain from 9 to 10"  (A).  I guess you know you have good early draw weight.
 
Title: Re: New project
Post by: sleek on March 21, 2019, 12:23:44 pm
Oh boy the fun starts! Listen, i want to stress, keep an eye on those fades.  No movement in the inner limb until the last few inches of draw. Also, before going ANY further, trace the outline of the bow as it sits on something. This gives a base line to hold it to so you can see exactly where set is happening.  I trace the back, belly is fine though.
Title: Re: New project
Post by: sleek on March 21, 2019, 12:26:17 pm
By inner limbs, i mean, 6 inches of inner limn should be left alone until maybe 5 inches of draw away, then the inner most hould barely move in the last 3 of draw.
Title: Re: New project
Post by: DC on March 21, 2019, 12:32:49 pm
At least for now. When I remove wood do I exercise it before I set the new benchmark? I have traced it and have 4.25" reflex.
Title: Re: New project
Post by: sleek on March 21, 2019, 12:36:01 pm
At least for now. When I remove wood do I exercise it before I set the new benchmark? I have traced it and have 4.25" reflex.

I always exercise,  but do it on the scale on the tree the first pull, and again after exersizing to get the results of it.
Title: Re: New project
Post by: sleek on March 21, 2019, 12:38:47 pm
Now that you have traced it, every say, few inches of draw length gained, lay it on the outline and trace it with a different color, or look close. You will see where set starts and stay from that area.
Title: Re: New project
Post by: Bayou Ben on March 21, 2019, 12:39:12 pm
At least for now. When I remove wood do I exercise it before I set the new benchmark? I have traced it and have 4.25" reflex.
I do but not on the scale.  I expect there to be some "break in" when new wood is exposed. 
Title: Re: New project
Post by: Bayou Ben on March 21, 2019, 12:42:27 pm
Now that you have traced it, every say, few inches of draw length gained, lay it on the outline and trace it with a different color, or look close. You will see where set starts and stay from that area.

I haven't been doing this, but I will start.  Simple but effective way to tell exactly where set is happening.
Title: Re: New project
Post by: DC on March 21, 2019, 12:44:04 pm
At least for now. When I remove wood do I exercise it before I set the new benchmark? I have traced it and have 4.25" reflex.
I do but not on the scale.  I expect there to be some "break in" when new wood is exposed. 
If I'm just walking back from the vice and pull it to nine inches say I get 35#. If I change my benchmark to that and then exercise isn't the weight going to go down to reflect the wood removal? Shouldn't I put it on the tree and exercise it first and then pull to 9" and then change my benchmark and got through the +1 and back thing.
Title: Re: New project
Post by: DC on March 21, 2019, 12:45:45 pm
At least for now. When I remove wood do I exercise it before I set the new benchmark? I have traced it and have 4.25" reflex.
I do but not on the scale.  I expect there to be some "break in" when new wood is exposed.
Why not on the scale? Or do you mean don't record the results of this exercise?
Title: Re: New project
Post by: Bayou Ben on March 21, 2019, 12:48:26 pm
 
[/quote]Shouldn't I put it on the tree and exercise it first and then pull to 9" and then change my benchmark and got through the +1 and back thing.
[/quote]

That's exactly what I do. 
Title: Re: New project
Post by: Bayou Ben on March 21, 2019, 12:52:59 pm

[/quote]
Why not on the scale? Or do you mean don't record the results of this exercise?
[/quote]

I don't record this information.  I don't know what it would tell me.  I expect there to be some break in of new wood, so yeah it will probably drop some from pull 1 to pull 20 when it's new wood.  What would you do differently if it dropped some?   You want to start your new benchmark when the wood has stabilized.  At least that's how I see it.
Title: Re: New project
Post by: DC on March 21, 2019, 01:10:12 pm
Thanks Ben I've taken about 5-10# of it(measured at 10") I've gained 5/8" of reflex as the Perry kicks in. How does the increase in reflex affect these numbers. It still hasn't taken any set. Lunch time :D
Title: Re: New project
Post by: Bayou Ben on March 21, 2019, 01:21:22 pm
I can guess but I don't have much experience with this as mine are normally closer to final dimensions, so I get only minimal increase in reflex. 

I should start doing it this way though.  You can perfect your tiller early on when the wood is nice and strong before much set starts.
 
Title: Re: New project
Post by: sleek on March 21, 2019, 02:53:22 pm
I am not certain what you mean by break in.. to me, if its not the same on the 100th pull as the first, then its set.
Title: Re: New project
Post by: Bayou Ben on March 21, 2019, 03:28:26 pm
I am not certain what you mean by break in.. to me, if its not the same on the 100th pull as the first, then its set.

I agree with that.  A small amount of "break in" just sounds better than set.  :)

A question for you since I don't monitor when I exercise the bow after wood removal.  Do you often find the bow drops in weight?   
I'm thinking it will drop a small amount, but you need to exercise it, so it's unavoidable set.
 
   
Title: Re: New project
Post by: sleek on March 21, 2019, 03:48:32 pm
I am not certain what you mean by break in.. to me, if its not the same on the 100th pull as the first, then its set.

I agree with that.  A small amount of "break in" just sounds better than set.  :)

A question for you since I don't monitor when I exercise the bow after wood removal.  Do you often find the bow drops in weight?   
I'm thinking it will drop a small amount, but you need to exercise it, so it's unavoidable set.
 
 
I have seen it drop a pound between inch draw marks. Its doesnt happen every time, but it does happen and that is set showing on the scale.

Example: pull to 40#@19 exercise it, then pull the 19 again and its now 40#@19.5 or 20 inches.
Title: Re: New project
Post by: Bayou Ben on March 21, 2019, 04:01:48 pm
That seems like a lot.  Usually a 1/4 -1/2 lb difference and I'm stopping and removing wood.  And that's usually 3 or so inches past my benchmark. 
Just thinking that I'm monitoring it close enough that it wouldn't drop a lb just by exercising it after wood removal.  I was thinking 1/10 a lb. 
I'll start to monitor it and see where I'm at.
 
Title: Re: New project
Post by: sleek on March 21, 2019, 04:04:16 pm
My scale isnt calibrated beyond a half a pound, so its with a margin of error.
Title: Re: New project
Post by: DC on March 21, 2019, 04:30:39 pm
I'm out to 40#@16" on the long string. Still no set. I must be doing this wrong ;D Reflex is still climbing. It's 5" now. Limbs are about .400 thick, .125 of that is backing. I've written out a bunch of numbers but they don't say much other than the benchmark is the same on the way down as is was on the way up. I'm seriously thinking of bracing it now but to do that I have to thin out the tips a bit. They are still .7" thick so there is a bunch to come off. Do you think I should brace it?
Title: Re: New project
Post by: sleek on March 21, 2019, 04:38:01 pm
Dude, that is looking outstanding! I am wrecked with anticipation of this being completed. I wouldnt brace it yet, at least, not full brace. I believe you should get to 40#@20 before bracing, or at least, get the limbs bent far enough back that the tips are at brace height at 40#.
Title: Re: New project
Post by: DC on March 21, 2019, 04:53:28 pm
The chalk line across the board is brace height so I'm only 1 1/2" away.
Title: Re: New project
Post by: bradsmith2010 on March 21, 2019, 05:35:00 pm
I think u should string it,..it will stabilise a bit,,,so u can tell where you are at,,,I think the bows with reflex,,,don't reveal as much on long string
Title: Re: New project
Post by: sleek on March 21, 2019, 05:40:38 pm
With this bow being built so close to all the max tollerneces, id just keep scraping away on the long string until its at the brace height. No need to really cut corners here.
Title: Re: New project
Post by: DC on March 21, 2019, 05:45:07 pm
I think I'm glad I braced it. It was trying to hinge at the outer end of the working limb on the left and the right limb was stiff. I think I caught the hinge but I'm thinking the right limb is a bit stiff. I've still got a few inches of draw left. Here's  brace (a touch low yet) and 24" draw. Still no "set" but the reflex is back to the original 4.25". It fits almost exactly on the original tracing. I suppose I gained 3/4" of reflex and then lost it again. That could be called set.
Oh I haven't chosen a top or bottom yet so maybe I'll just make the stiff one the bottom limb.
Title: Re: New project
Post by: sleek on March 21, 2019, 06:03:38 pm
The right limb is a bit stiffer, but it also has the best tiller profile.  The left is coming around into the fade already, its too soon. At 24 is where you should start that. But, once the right limb is walked around to match the left, you may fimd yourself right on point. Even out the right limb with the left, and post a pic please.

Further inspection, i believe the right limb also is bending more in the inmer limb than needed, try a few scrapes on the mid and outter, focusing on the outter.
Title: Re: New project
Post by: sleek on March 21, 2019, 06:09:59 pm
Also, once the right limb has come around to match the left, if you have any distance left to gain, and i expect you will, id work the outter limb to mid limb on them until you have gained one more inch of draw. I dont feel they are bending quite enough.
Title: Re: New project
Post by: sleek on March 21, 2019, 06:12:47 pm
Further inspection, i believe the right limb also is bending more in the inmer limb than needed, try a few scrapes on the mid and outter, focusing on the outter. You actually have a bit of a flat spot on the outter right.
Title: Re: New project
Post by: sleek on March 21, 2019, 06:58:35 pm
...
Title: Re: New project
Post by: sleek on March 21, 2019, 06:59:38 pm
He is either tillering, or trying to figure a way to politely tell me to shut up....


Title: Re: New project
Post by: DC on March 21, 2019, 07:02:36 pm
He is either tillering, or trying to figure a way to politely tell me to shut up....

Actually I was making and eating supper ;D ;D 
I did this. I couldn't rotate the picture in fine enough increments. You can see the tips don't quite line up. But it shows that I'm pretty close. I had to work the fade of the left to catch up with the hingey spot. After looking at the picture do you still agree with your last post. I'm going to look at it for a bit.
Title: Re: New project
Post by: DC on March 21, 2019, 07:07:39 pm
I think I'll go take a scrape or two off the right outer.
Title: Re: New project
Post by: sleek on March 21, 2019, 07:15:01 pm
I think outter 3rd on the  right is a bit stiff still, and you should do no more than maybe 10 scrapes off it. Then remeasure weight, and check tiller.
Title: Re: New project
Post by: DC on March 21, 2019, 07:20:31 pm
Six scrapes and it's now 40#@ 27". When the limb is that thin things happen fast. I think I should shoot it a bit, I'll have to make a string. That will stop me from fiddling with it and fudging it up
Title: Re: New project
Post by: sleek on March 21, 2019, 07:20:38 pm
Also, take it off the tree, leave it braced, place the back of the handle against a straight edge, i use a wall, and measure the distance of the tips to the wall or whatever edge. You want them to be within half an inch.

Another trick I learned from Lebhuntfish on here, is to mease on the string every 6 inches, starting at the tips. Measure from the string to the belly. Comparing that distance between left and right limb will tell you what limb is bending more and where.  You can go every inch on the string if you really want to compare.

Also, i leave it braced,  trace the outline, then flip the bow on that outline to compare again.
Title: Re: New project
Post by: sleek on March 21, 2019, 07:22:13 pm
Six scrapes and it's now 40#@ 27". When the limb is that thin things happen fast. I think I should shoot it a bit, I'll have to make a string. That will stop me from fiddling with it and fudging it up

Hows your set, and unbraced profile on the original outline ypu drew?
Title: Re: New project
Post by: sleek on March 21, 2019, 07:23:43 pm
Left limb immer 3rd would like 4 scrapes.
Title: Re: New project
Post by: DC on March 21, 2019, 07:35:41 pm
Left limb immer 3rd would like 4 scrapes.
The back of the handle is peaked because of the deflex so that won't work. I will measure every 6" though and trace it.
Title: Re: New project
Post by: DC on March 21, 2019, 07:39:13 pm
Left limb immer 3rd would like 4 scrapes.
Yeah I think so. The tracing indicates that. I tried measuring and wouldn't you know it the toggle on my adjustable string is right where I want to measure. I'm going to stop for the night and make a string. I'll carry on tomorrow. Thanks for all the advice.
Title: Re: New project
Post by: sleek on March 21, 2019, 07:41:32 pm
Man, thanks for building this and letting me be a part of it. Its coming around beautifully.  Im hitting the sack nkw, i should have an hour ago but this build has me excited. Id like to know, hows it line up against the original outline you drew?
Title: Re: New project
Post by: sleek on March 21, 2019, 07:44:20 pm
You should unbrace it, and trace its outline immediately,  then check it against that in the morning. On a self bow you want the profile to not have changed, with this glued in Perry reflex, im not certain what to expect, but id be happy to see it not gain reflex over night, and if any is gained, no more than the amout you mentioned earlier when first tillering.
Title: Re: New project
Post by: DC on March 21, 2019, 07:48:20 pm
I unbraced before I saw this post. I compared it with the original tracing and it's taken an inch of set. It's real set because I can see it coming back. Reflex was 3" when I unbraced it and 3 1/4" within a couple of minutes. We'll see in the morning. It's the chrono that's going to tell the tale anyway.
Title: Re: New project
Post by: sleek on March 21, 2019, 07:53:54 pm
I unbraced before I saw this post. I compared it with the original tracing and it's taken an inch of set. It's real set because I can see it coming back. Reflex was 3" when I unbraced it and 3 1/4" within a couple of minutes. We'll see in the morning. It's the chrono that's going to tell the tale anyway.

One inch isnt terrible. No set tillering should have thrown warnings signs in advance but oh well. Id be interested to see a before and after pic of the outline, traced on top of eachother.

Id be willing to bet if you had stopped at 37 pounds,  or had the extra width the ratio indicated,  you would be looking at a lit less set. Where is the set at?
Title: Re: New project
Post by: lebhuntfish on March 21, 2019, 08:00:32 pm
That's starting to look like a bow! I can't wait to to see the numbers on that one.

Patrick
Title: Re: New project
Post by: DC on March 21, 2019, 08:22:13 pm
Where is the set at?
I can't tell. The whole working limb looks like it's just bent a little more than before.
Title: Re: New project
Post by: sleek on March 22, 2019, 05:05:38 am
Where is the set at?
I can't tell. The whole working limb looks like it's just bent a little more than before.

Thats what you want, set to be evenly distributed across the bow.  Having gained an inch of set, id be considering not pullimg it that extra inch,  or dropping weight to the calculated 37 pounds before going back any further. Too bad you cant toast your limbs. This is the point id say to do it.

It would be great if you checked its outline against its original outline now that it has rested all night. Id be good to see how much it has bent back from that inch of set. I hope not much.

Is your scale callibrated? I notice that it shows a touch over 42 pounds at 27 inches there. Is it 2 pounds off? That could explain the set, being a touch too narrow for target weight and being overdrawn on poundage. Even a little bit can make a big difference.
Title: Re: New project
Post by: Bayou Ben on March 22, 2019, 07:41:47 am
You're the man DC! That is looking awesome.  I'd say that's pretty darn good considering the aggressive design.  It should be a screamer. 
But I'm with sleek, you should have noticed the set creeping in with no set tillering.  It shows up on the scale before it shows up as set. 
Title: Re: New project
Post by: sleek on March 22, 2019, 08:02:08 am
Oh thank God, DC is online... I have been checking for updates for the last 2 hours...

Lol, Goodmorning buddy!
Title: Re: New project
Post by: sleek on March 22, 2019, 08:11:26 am
I really think i need a bow builders anonymous to help with my addiction. It doesnt help that its a slow day at work.
Title: Re: New project
Post by: Woodely on March 22, 2019, 08:19:43 am
Is it to flat in the area shown..?   I guess its supposed to be like that............would make sense if ya want a limb working area of 12-14".... correct.    ???
Title: Re: New project
Post by: DC on March 22, 2019, 08:21:01 am
OK I'm up. Got my coffee. Sleek, it came back about 3/4" overnight. I'm just measuring the reflex for this. Put the tips against the wall and measure from the wall to the back of the handle. It's 3 3/4" now. I can be happy with 27" draw. I think my draw is about 26.5". I'm wondering if I can sneak a little more working length out of both fades, handle and lever. I'll post a couple of pictures in a bit. I think the scales are good. The ruler on the tree is right to the back of the handle.
Ben- I'm actually not sure if I'm doing the no-set right. I do this-
Fresh from wood removal. On the tree, exercise about 10 times, pull to the benchmark, record the weight, pull to upper weight, exercise 10 times, back to brace height, pull to benchmark and record the weight. Does that sound right?

For some reason I'm having my doubts that this is going to be a good one. Early draw seems heavy though. New string is made, I'll have to narrow/thin the tips to get the loops on. Then I have to decide top limb so I can narrow the arrow pass. Then I can chrono it. First I have to sort out the last little bit of tiller.
Title: Re: New project
Post by: DC on March 22, 2019, 08:24:53 am
Woodley- That's the splice where the dark wood is so I want it stiff there. I had steamed in a little bend from there to where the recurve starts but that appears to be gone in that picture. I'll check that out, thanks, good eye.
Title: Re: New project
Post by: Badger on March 22, 2019, 08:29:50 am
  Bow builds like this are what bow making is all about for me. very intense, you actually go to battle with the set. Good job so far. The only thing I do different is I check my benchmark on the first pull, do about 10 pulls and then check it again. If I am getting a pound or two difference I don't get too excited but don't like it either. hard to avoid.
Title: Re: New project
Post by: DC on March 22, 2019, 08:32:18 am
  The only thing I do different is I check my benchmark on the first pull, do about 10 pulls and then check it again.
If you have just removed wood doesn't the weight drop from that throw off your numbers?
Title: Re: New project
Post by: Badger on March 22, 2019, 08:53:02 am
  Of course, every wood removal you have to reset benchmark. It takes my several pulls to get down to the benchmark after a wood removal.
Title: Re: New project
Post by: DC on March 22, 2019, 09:02:42 am
OK some pictures. Do you think I can sneak some more working limb out of these. Would you remove wood back into the point of the "V" joint. I can lose a pound or two. If I had more working limb would it minimize set even though it's already happened?
Title: Re: New project
Post by: sleek on March 22, 2019, 09:06:32 am
Id look into your fades. Draw a line where the splice stops on your handle. I need to see that. Your fades are very long i feel and id bet you can eat into them for more limb length. Now is the time to do it too.. yes, you can head off more set by doing this.
Title: Re: New project
Post by: sleek on March 22, 2019, 09:08:59 am
From the 3 to 6 inch mark on the pic of your handle, thats stiff, eat into that to get more limb. That would give you an extra 6 inches total. Use that to get your last bit of draw. It will be perfect, and not give you any more set.
.
Title: Re: New project
Post by: PatM on March 22, 2019, 09:10:04 am
You can almost certainly get a little more bend in the fades and outer fades approaching your v splice.    You don't need much.
Title: Re: New project
Post by: DC on March 22, 2019, 09:10:19 am
The splice ends at the 1" mark on the tape. It's only 2.25" long.
Title: Re: New project
Post by: sleek on March 22, 2019, 09:12:03 am
Even if you can only get the 6 inch to the 4 inch working that would be good. Id leave your tips alone. Though later you may narrow those shoulders a bit to loose some mass.
Title: Re: New project
Post by: DC on March 22, 2019, 09:13:40 am
From the 3 to 6 inch mark on the pic of your handle, thats stiff, eat into that to get more limb. That would give you an extra 6 inches total. Use that to get your last bit of draw. It will be perfect, and not give you any more set.

Even if you can only get the 6 inch to the 4 inch working that would be good. Id leave your tips alone. Though kater you may narrow those shoiukders a bit to loose some mass.
I was steering clear of the fades(like you said) but I guess now is the time. It actually shows better in the picture.
Title: Re: New project
Post by: DC on March 22, 2019, 09:15:49 am
Even if you can only get the 6 inch to the 4 inch working that would be good. Id leave your tips alone. Though later you may narrow those shoulders a bit to loose some mass.
I'll be doing quite a bit of skinnying on the whole lever area, from the splice out. I'll glue some splints on the back so I can monitor the bend. But that's later.
Title: Re: New project
Post by: sleek on March 22, 2019, 09:16:56 am
From the 3 to 6 inch mark on the pic of your handle, thats stiff, eat into that to get more limb. That would give you an extra 6 inches total. Use that to get your last bit of draw. It will be perfect, and not give you any more set.

Even if you can only get the 6 inch to the 4 inch working that would be good. Id leave your tips alone. Though kater you may narrow those shoiukders a bit to loose some mass.
I was steering clear of the fades(like you said) but I guess now is the time. It actually shows better in the picture.

Fades are where your last 3 inches should come from. And sometimes its hard to control, thats why i was expressing such strong words of caution.

This bow is coming together almost perfectly. Im so excited, and impressed with your skill and control. Doing a hellova job.
Title: Re: New project
Post by: bradsmith2010 on March 22, 2019, 09:20:09 am
Can u leave draw where it's at...
Title: Re: New project
Post by: bradsmith2010 on March 22, 2019, 09:22:01 am
Can u shoot it through chrono....before extending draw,..ok I'm reading on phone,,,sorry if I missed something,,,if u are to full draw,,,and need more limb,,,,reduce the draw and shoot it,,.maybe u are done,..u have lots of bows....if it shoots good at 26,.,call it good,..
Title: Re: New project
Post by: DC on March 22, 2019, 09:49:05 am
Brad- I can't shoot it through the chrono machine with the grip so wide. I need to cut at least some arrow pass and I can't do that until I decide on top limb, which hangs on the tiller. Sort of a "catch 22"
Title: Re: New project
Post by: DC on March 22, 2019, 10:04:56 am
I have to fix a bit of string alignment before I do anything else. Lower lim needs to twist about 1/8". It will be a while until it cools.
Title: Re: New project
Post by: sleek on March 22, 2019, 10:15:11 am
Where on the limb did you heat to get your alignment?
Title: Re: New project
Post by: DC on March 22, 2019, 10:30:20 am
Right at the base of the recurve just out from where the dark overlay ends
Title: Re: New project
Post by: sleek on March 22, 2019, 10:39:02 am
Right at the base of the recurve just out from where the dark overlay ends

Ok. Curious, how thick are the limbs now?  Is there a possibility with some hot steam you coukd try to put a heat treat on the limbs belly and not mess your epoxy up?
Title: Re: New project
Post by: DC on March 22, 2019, 11:02:43 am
I'd rather not steam it, I think I'd risk more than I could gain. I just strung it and the alignment is better. Could use a bit more but it's good for now. Put it on the tree and it was 20#@15", pulled it to 26" which is 40# this morning, exercised a bit and back to 20#@15". I worked a tiny bit on the fades and since I've got a couple of inches to work with I think I'll try a bit more.
Title: Re: New project
Post by: sleek on March 22, 2019, 11:32:50 am
Your last post on page 12 said you have 3/4 inch set. Man, that aint bad. Especially seeing as your scale said 42 pounds at 27, so, i bet if you keep it at 40, and get it back to 27 working the fades only and you wont see any more set.

Whats your draw weight at each inch of draw so far? Id like to see you make a force draw chart please.
Title: Re: New project
Post by: DC on March 22, 2019, 11:56:32 am
After a bit of work on the fades and rounded the edges 40#@28"
Title: Re: New project
Post by: sleek on March 22, 2019, 12:00:47 pm
OUTSTANDING!
Title: Re: New project
Post by: sleek on March 22, 2019, 12:15:54 pm
Hows the set? Would you mind doing anF/D chart for us please?

Im studying the tiller, I see where you have worked the fades pretty well, looks like you have an extra 2 inches on each fade working. Can you lay the just unbraced bow over your outline, trace it, and take a pic so we can see how the shape changed?
By the looks of it, the right limb is ever so slightly stronger. Is that your target for lower limb? 

Im excited to see how it shoots once you have it all trimmed out. You have done an amazing job working this bow. Its probably the best example of a tiller I have ever seen, and you did everything perfectly, without having to compensate for any mess ups. Honestly,  this bow has been a completely amazing build and should be used to teach all new guys how things are done.

Now you said this was a prototype,  for your next one, if you can, add more width, based off how much set you have here. We can come up with a more accurate ratio now that you have built one, and with your tillering skills, id bet you can get 1/4 inch set.  Hows this set amount compare to the amount of set on the bow you referenced for the ratio? Also, next go, dont forget to heat treat your limbs before glue up :D
Title: Re: New project
Post by: DC on March 22, 2019, 12:19:23 pm
Which way is up? I'll do a FD chart in a bit.
Title: Re: New project
Post by: sleek on March 22, 2019, 12:19:54 pm
The more I stare at it, i think the right limb would bennefit on the inner 3rd with a scrape or two, but, you are at target weight already, and its very close.
Title: Re: New project
Post by: sleek on March 22, 2019, 12:21:19 pm
Which way is up? I'll do a FD chart in a bit.

It looks best on the top image
Title: Re: New project
Post by: Bayou Ben on March 22, 2019, 12:27:13 pm
Hard to believe you got that tiller from such a short amount working limb.  I'm impressed and inspired. 
The crazy part is that the limbs don't even look to be stressed all that much.
And to think you've been spitting out bows like this and you haven't been doing no set tillering.   (A) (A) (A)
Title: Re: New project
Post by: sleek on March 22, 2019, 12:29:08 pm
Hard to believe you got that tiller from such a short amount working limb.  I'm impressed and inspired. 
The crazy part is that the limbs don't even look to be stressed all that much.
And to think you've been spitting out bows like this and you haven't been doing no set tillering.   (A) (A) (A)

His level of craftsmanship, tool control, and a solid eye for tiller are on a master level. Man knows exactly what he is doing.
Title: Re: New project
Post by: DC on March 22, 2019, 12:30:06 pm
Here's another like the top picture with a little less heel in the grip. Hands are sore and the grip is squareish so I think I could get a better grip on things ;D
Title: Re: New project
Post by: sleek on March 22, 2019, 12:30:22 pm
Badger, whats your opinion on this, or are you waiting quietly for the fd chart and chrono numbers to come out?
Title: Re: New project
Post by: sleek on March 22, 2019, 12:34:43 pm
Here's another like the top picture with a little less heel in the grip. Hands are sore and the grip is squareish so I think I could get a better grip on things ;D

I like it. The lower is just a touch stiff, and thats the best limb to be stiff. You may try to adjust your grip to angle the lower limb toward you just a touch. The way you carve the handle can make that happen though. 
Title: Re: New project
Post by: DC on March 22, 2019, 12:36:27 pm
OK I'll smooth out the handle, rasp in an arrow pass, FD chart and then Chrono. I'm going to leave the tips until after the first chrono. I think Badger is expecting it to deteriorate quickly. I'm thinking the same unless the deflex is taking off more strain than I think.
Title: Re: New project
Post by: Bayou Ben on March 22, 2019, 12:43:00 pm
I'm assuming thinning the levers will be more important than normal to the chrono results considering their length and the % of mass that they carry in this bow.
Title: Re: New project
Post by: Badger on March 22, 2019, 01:04:04 pm
   As much as you worked it I don't think it will deteriorate much at all. An ideal flight bow reaches full draw the very first time on the scales before the shooting takes place. In the case of an unlimited weight class bow I might tiller it 4 or 5" short of full draw and the first full draw it ever hits will be on the shooting line.
Title: Re: New project
Post by: PatM on March 22, 2019, 01:11:51 pm
Here's an old thread on Paleoplanet where we were discussing the idea you have going here.  The idea being to sneak up on this theoretical design.  Sorry it's full of math and graphs.
  https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/paleoplanet69529/a-quick-study-of-the-stiff-limbed-hickman-thought--t16901.html
 
Title: Re: New project
Post by: bradsmith2010 on March 22, 2019, 01:54:56 pm
Very nice, )P(
Title: Re: New project
Post by: sleek on March 22, 2019, 02:44:53 pm
Oh gosh... hows it shoot! Im dyin over here. Feel like a new dad pacing the waiting room waiting on the news.
Title: Re: New project
Post by: DC on March 22, 2019, 03:06:19 pm
FDC measurements
5" brace 0
6----     3.9
7---      6.8
8----     9.1
9----     11.1
10--      12.4
11--      14.1
12--      15.5
13--      17.5
14--      19.1
15--      20.2
16--      21.9
17--      23.4
18--      24.9
19--      26.3
20--      27.8
21--      29.4
22--      31
23--      32.5
24--      34.1
25--      35.7
26--      37
27-- popped a splinter

Now I have to babysit my grandson. It was a very small splinter. I've Ca'd it. Just the wood between two growth rings about 1/16" wide. Little cloud of dust. Crap.
Title: Re: New project
Post by: DC on March 22, 2019, 03:09:05 pm
I meant to post this an hour ago. I pushed the button but it never went.
Title: Re: New project
Post by: DC on March 22, 2019, 03:17:21 pm
Middle of the bottom working limb. Starts at the pencil mark and goes left about an inch. I'm reasonably confident that the CA will hold it. But I've never dealt with tiny splinters before.
Title: Re: New project
Post by: sleek on March 22, 2019, 03:19:37 pm
Id wrap it tight with sewing thread, the length of the splinter, then soak that in liquid ca glue. That usually does the trick.
Title: Re: New project
Post by: DC on March 22, 2019, 03:22:37 pm
What are the chances of the CA holding it. I don't really like bandaids :D. I guess a wrap on both limbs might be alright.
Title: Re: New project
Post by: DC on March 22, 2019, 03:28:08 pm
Here's an old thread on Paleoplanet where we were discussing the idea you have going here.  The idea being to sneak up on this theoretical design.  Sorry it's full of math and graphs.
  https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/paleoplanet69529/a-quick-study-of-the-stiff-limbed-hickman-thought--t16901.html
Thanks Pat, that looks like a good read.
Title: Re: New project
Post by: bradsmith2010 on March 22, 2019, 03:29:52 pm
I think I said 26 :D,,,ok just kidding,,
I think wrapping it might be a good idea,, but I am always over worried,,
if you dont wrap it and it blows,, the wrap would have looked pretty,,
if you wrap it and it holds you will always think you didnt need it,, nobody said it was gonna be easy,,, :)
Title: Re: New project
Post by: Woodely on March 22, 2019, 03:32:17 pm
Lots of work, looks really nice, but I'm afraid of the design been over built, say a tad stiff here and there.  Does not surprise me that it lifted a splinter.  Now go shoot it 2-300 times and leave it braced for about 6 hours.
What ya going to wrap it with.?
Title: Re: New project
Post by: sleek on March 22, 2019, 04:15:45 pm
Reading your FD chart, and knowing that 28 is 40#, guessing that 27 is 38.5 because you dont have a reading there, this bow has a stored energy of 44.1 foot pounds. Thats over 100% energy storage. You very may well have a record breaking bow there for flight shoot. Either way, that bow will be fast. Very few people make a bow that stores close to 100 percent, much less over it.

Do your best to fix that,  and dont be surprised to find insane chrono numbers at 10 grains per pound,  like, 190s to 200s.
Title: Re: New project
Post by: bradsmith2010 on March 22, 2019, 04:17:24 pm
Sleek, is there a simple way to explain to me about the storage,, Im not good at math,, )P(
Title: Re: New project
Post by: DC on March 22, 2019, 04:19:34 pm
Id wrap it tight with sewing thread, the length of the splinter, then soak that in liquid ca glue. That usually does the trick.

I wrapped it. I still wanted to chrono it and see how it shoots. It shot a 400 gr arrow 161fps @ 26" draw. Not a speed demon. I'll start picking away at the levers to see how much weight I can get rid of. I'm suspecting a possible bad backing. Well not necessarily bad, just the weak point. I'm always suspicious of my Maple backing. There was some concern that the grain was a little off.

I just read your post Sleek. Hopefully the tips a really heavy
Title: Re: New project
Post by: PatM on March 22, 2019, 04:21:05 pm
This was why I recommended  adding the sinew. ;)
   
Title: Re: New project
Post by: sleek on March 22, 2019, 04:30:03 pm
Sleek, is there a simple way to explain to me about the storage,, Im not good at math,, )P(

Add all the weights up at each inch, divide by 12. That number is stored energy in foot pounds. You want it as close to your final draw weight as possible, or more than.
Title: Re: New project
Post by: sleek on March 22, 2019, 04:38:21 pm
Id wrap it tight with sewing thread, the length of the splinter, then soak that in liquid ca glue. That usually does the trick.

I wrapped it. I still wanted to chrono it and see how it shoots. It shot a 400 gr arrow 161fps @ 26" draw. Not a speed demon. I'll start picking away at the levers to see how much weight I can get rid of. I'm suspecting a possible bad backing. Well not necessarily bad, just the weak point. I'm always suspicious of my Maple backing. There was some concern that the grain was a little off.

I just read your post Sleek. Hopefully the tips a really heavy

400 grains at 26 is hobbling the bow. First because the bow doesnt pull 40@26, rather 38.5, so you are asking it to shoot an arrow over 10gpp. Second, you are under drawing the powerstroke by 2 inches. That bow should be much faster than you are pushing it. Easily 170s. As for the mass, man, i hope you have lots you can remove. I dont know otherwise why ut wouldnt be faster.
Title: Re: New project
Post by: sleek on March 22, 2019, 04:40:33 pm
Badger,  any ideas?
Title: Re: New project
Post by: PatM on March 22, 2019, 04:46:05 pm
Mass reduction of the extremities and a lighter arrow.  This would be considered a good dry fire design.
Title: Re: New project
Post by: sleek on March 22, 2019, 04:50:16 pm
Mass reduction of the extremities and a lighter arrow.  This would be considered a good dry fire design.

How light? Like, 200 grains?
Title: Re: New project
Post by: sleek on March 22, 2019, 04:52:29 pm
Lots of work, looks really nice, but I'm afraid of the design been over built, say a tad stiff here and there.  Does not surprise me that it lifted a splinter.  Now go shoot it 2-300 times and leave it braced for about 6 hours.
What ya going to wrap it with.?

How is this bow overbuit, and where are the stiff spots here and there that you see?
Title: Re: New project
Post by: DC on March 22, 2019, 05:01:26 pm
As soon as the grandson leaves I'll get to stripping weight.
PatM- as long as it doesn't explode the door to sinew is still open. If it shows some promise I could go there. Or make a few design changes with sinew in mind. I could strip the maple off and heat treat the Yew. Just as long as it stays in one piece. Or start a similar one. I've got a few more years in me ;D
Title: Re: New project
Post by: sleek on March 22, 2019, 05:07:45 pm
As soon as the grandson leaves I'll get to stripping weight.
PatM- as long as it doesn't explode the door to sinew is still open. If it shows some promise I could go there. Or make a few design changes with sinew in mind. I could strip the maple off and heat treat the Yew. Just as long as it stays in one piece. Or start a similar one. I've got a few more years in me ;D

Id just make another.... after this one has been tinkered with to the point of success or destruction. Either way.
Title: Re: New project
Post by: DC on March 22, 2019, 05:11:22 pm
Lots of work, looks really nice, but I'm afraid of the design been over built, say a tad stiff here and there.  Does not surprise me that it lifted a splinter.  Now go shoot it 2-300 times and leave it braced for about 6 hours.
What ya going to wrap it with.?
I wrapped it with some upholstery thread I had. It's very strong.
Title: Re: New project
Post by: DC on March 22, 2019, 05:17:57 pm

400 grains at 26 is hobbling the bow. First because the bow doesnt pull 40@26, rather 38.5, so you are asking it to shoot an arrow over 10gpp. Second, you are under drawing the powerstroke by 2 inches. That bow should be much faster than you are pushing it. Easily 170s. As for the mass, man, i hope you have lots you can remove. I dont know otherwise why ut wouldnt be faster.
I'm still a little gun shy. I'll work my way back up to 28" ;D ;D
Title: Re: New project
Post by: sleek on March 22, 2019, 05:28:57 pm

400 grains at 26 is hobbling the bow. First because the bow doesnt pull 40@26, rather 38.5, so you are asking it to shoot an arrow over 10gpp. Second, you are under drawing the powerstroke by 2 inches. That bow should be much faster than you are pushing it. Easily 170s. As for the mass, man, i hope you have lots you can remove. I dont know otherwise why ut wouldnt be faster.
I'm still a little gun shy. I'll work my way back up to 28" ;D ;D
Dont blame ya. Wear safety glasses and a heavy coat.
Title: Re: New project
Post by: sleek on March 22, 2019, 05:29:58 pm
Lots of work, looks really nice, but I'm afraid of the design been over built, say a tad stiff here and there.  Does not surprise me that it lifted a splinter.  Now go shoot it 2-300 times and leave it braced for about 6 hours.
What ya going to wrap it with.?
I wrapped it with some upholstery thread I had. It's very strong.

Hey now that looks quite nice!
Title: Re: New project
Post by: bradsmith2010 on March 22, 2019, 05:35:25 pm
if the bow was starting to take set,, the 26,, should shoot pretty fast,,26 is a good power stroke, I know the bow was pulled to 28,, but not that much,,
I would test it again at the 26 with tip reduction,, ( dont you like it how everybody tells you what they would do ;D) it wont hurt to see,, then if you not getting the speed, and think the limbs are not stressed enough to perform,, take it on out,,
sometimes taking the power stroke on out,, off sets it self with the set it gonna take,, but you never know unless you try,, Im preaching to the choir,,  but I just thought since it was taking some set,, you might be as far as you need to go,, and the splinter was talking to you,, but Im superstitous :NN
  eithter way you gonna learn something for the next one,, I think its a success already, ,anything you do now is icing on the cake,,  :)
that makes me really worred when Sleek is cautious,, (--)
Title: Re: New project
Post by: sleek on March 22, 2019, 06:09:24 pm
[/qoute)
sometimes taking the power stroke on out,, off sets it self with the set it gonna take
[/quote]


This is very true, but this bow was designed from the start to handle this draw length. If it fails, the wood is to blame on this one.

[/quote] That makes me really worred when Sleek is cautious,, [/quote]

Seems im making quite the name for myself. Lol, I laughed so hard at that my eyes watered. Thanks for that. No, Im just suggesting basic safety over a bow that has a back problem, with a wood im not familiar with at all. Thats all.
Title: Re: New project
Post by: DC on March 22, 2019, 06:15:24 pm
I'm going to stick with 26 for a bit. I've taken 222 grains off the width of the tips. Now I'm going to start on the depth. I've hot glued a bamboo skewer on to the back as an indicator. It will tell be how much the tip is bending. I'm going to try for 1/8" or something and see how that goes.
Title: Re: New project
Post by: sleek on March 22, 2019, 06:17:07 pm
DC, you said a puff of dust came off that splinter when it popped? I never heard of that, but i think the backing may be the problem not the design. Perhaps a rawhide is in order to keep would be splinters down. Also, as the splinter was on the very edge, did you have your corners rounded well beforehand?
Title: Re: New project
Post by: sleek on March 22, 2019, 06:19:10 pm
I'm going to stick with 26 for a bit. I've taken 222 grains off the width of the tips. Now I'm going to start on the depth. I've hot glued a bamboo skewer on to the back as an indicator. It will tell be how much the tip is bending. I'm going to try for 1/8" or something and see how that goes.

That is bloody brilliant. 222 grains is damn near an arrows worth  of weight removed. That will help lots!
Title: Re: New project
Post by: DC on March 22, 2019, 07:10:48 pm
DC, you said a puff of dust came off that splinter when it popped? I never heard of that, but i think the backing may be the problem not the design. Perhaps a rawhide is in order to keep would be splinters down. Also, as the splinter was on the very edge, did you have your corners rounded well beforehand?
It popped quite loud. I think it just shook off some sanding dust. I've had bigger splinters make less noise. I'm afraid the weight of the rawhide would counter all I'm doing unless I had goat or something. But I don't have any rawhide. Yes the corners were nicely rounded. The splinter was about 1/4" from the edge. I just tried my bend tester and the ends bend 1/4" just bracing the bow. Then they bend more. I'm going to move the glued part out toward the tips.
Title: Re: New project
Post by: sleek on March 22, 2019, 07:25:40 pm
DC, you said a puff of dust came off that splinter when it popped? I never heard of that, but i think the backing may be the problem not the design. Perhaps a rawhide is in order to keep would be splinters down. Also, as the splinter was on the very edge, did you have your corners rounded well beforehand?
It popped quite loud. I think it just shook off some sanding dust. I've had bigger splinters make less noise. I'm afraid the weight of the rawhide would counter all I'm doing unless I had goat or something. But I don't have any rawhide. Yes the corners were nicely rounded. The splinter was about 1/4" from the edge. I just tried my bend tester and the ends bend 1/4" just bracing the bow. Then they bend more. I'm going to move the glued part out toward the tips.

Do a quick check on the scale to see if you lost any draw weight from tip reduction.  They may have been bending the enture time... or not.
Also, check tiller after that splinter, it may have changed.
Title: Re: New project
Post by: bradsmith2010 on March 22, 2019, 07:41:27 pm
Thin goat,,.or deer,,.I have shot through chrono with no reduction in performance,..I was shooting by hand,,.so not as exact as your machine,...
Title: Re: New project
Post by: DC on March 22, 2019, 08:03:01 pm
I took 370 grains off the bow from lever splices out. Used the same 400 gr arrow and 26" draw. Gained 2 fps, up to 163. So I tried a 300 gr arrow, same 26" and got 185. I can take more weight off tomorrow but I've been through this before, you have to take an awful lot off the tips to make any dif.
Title: Re: New project
Post by: bradsmith2010 on March 22, 2019, 09:00:53 pm
Well 370 grain arrow should be 170,,,175...?
Title: Re: New project
Post by: DC on March 22, 2019, 10:07:04 pm
What I'm comparing it with is my daily shooter. Probably got 1500-200 shots. At 26" a 400 grain arrow is 175fps. a 300 gr arrow is 192fps. at 28" the 400 is 190fps and the 300 is 210fps The new bow is 26",400gr,163fps. 10 fps slower. Oh that's not quite a dismal as I was thinking. That's cheered me up a bit. I'll see what happens tomorrow. I can actually get some more working limb to make 28 in safer. Maybe, just maybe ;D
Title: Re: New project
Post by: maitus on March 23, 2019, 12:28:42 am
Why not to sinew back this bow :)?
Title: Re: New project
Post by: sleek on March 23, 2019, 06:57:27 am
What I'm comparing it with is my daily shooter. Probably got 1500-200 shots. At 26" a 400 grain arrow is 175fps. a 300 gr arrow is 192fps. at 28" the 400 is 190fps and the 300 is 210fps The new bow is 26",400gr,163fps. 10 fps slower. Oh that's not quite a dismal as I was thinking. That's cheered me up a bit. I'll see what happens tomorrow. I can actually get some more working limb to make 28 in safer. Maybe, just maybe ;D

Id love to see this bow, have a link to it? Is this the bow you used as a reference for this new bow?
Title: Re: New project
Post by: DC on March 23, 2019, 07:55:10 am
I think you've seen it. Since I posted it the tiller changed a bit and I had to turn it upside down, changed the arrow pass and put a new handle on it. I used the brain tan that BowEd sent me. Where is he???
https://www.primitivearcher.com/smf/index.php/topic,64730.0.html
Title: Re: New project
Post by: DC on March 23, 2019, 08:24:48 am
  Of course, every wood removal you have to reset benchmark. It takes my several pulls to get down to the benchmark after a wood removal.

I'm still not sure I'm doing the tillering right. Is there a minimum distance between the benchmark and how for you pull it to exercise. I was only going an inch or two. Maybe if I had gone more the set might have shown up?
Title: Re: New project
Post by: DC on March 23, 2019, 08:39:40 am
Why not to sinew back this bow :)?

I'm seriously considering it. I'm trying to decide whether to grind off the Maple and just have a sinew backed Yew that may be too light unless I pile on the sinew. Or I could leave the Maple on and risk having to tiller off all the Yew. I could grind the Maple off the working limb and leave it on the levers and just sinew the WL. I've only done one sinewed bow so all these options are very confusing. I think I want to play with it as is for a bit. I have to keep reminding myself that except for the backing all this wood was headed for the fire pit so al I've lost is time and I've got lots of that. Up until I run out, of course ;D ;D
Title: Re: New project
Post by: PatM on March 23, 2019, 08:45:23 am
I would reduce the maple a bit hopefully eliminating the sliver and then sinew.  You should be able to end up right where you planned with a bit more built in safety.
Title: Re: New project
Post by: DC on March 23, 2019, 08:48:26 am
I don't think the sliver is more than 1/32" deep. Would you leave the Maple full thickness on the leavers and just sinew the working limb?
Title: Re: New project
Post by: Woodely on March 23, 2019, 09:00:48 am
Lots of work, looks really nice, but I'm afraid of the design been over built, say a tad stiff here and there.  Does not surprise me that it lifted a splinter.  Now go shoot it 2-300 times and leave it braced for about 6 hours.
What ya going to wrap it with.?

How is this bow overbuit, and where are the stiff spots here and there that you see?

Differences of opinion, what I see is what I see If I could physically hold it and draw it maybe opinion would be different  and not everything you read, see or hear online is what it is.  I have learned that after been online for over 18 years.  (lol)
Title: Re: New project
Post by: PatM on March 23, 2019, 09:12:38 am
I don't think the sliver is more than 1/32" deep. Would you leave the Maple full thickness on the leavers and just sinew the working limb?
   
   Yes.  With a gradual step up in thickness through the v splice area.
Title: Re: New project
Post by: sleek on March 23, 2019, 09:14:28 am
I don't think the sliver is more than 1/32" deep. Would you leave the Maple full thickness on the leavers and just sinew the working limb?

Good luck with all that, i onow nothing about sinew. Id just loke to see you chrono at 28 with a 400 grain arrow before hand.
Title: Re: New project
Post by: bradsmith2010 on March 23, 2019, 09:18:38 am
First try a thin layer of Sinew that will allow u to go to 28
If that is no good,,,then put more and induce reflex,,u will gain weight and have to tiller
If that's no good,,,then grind off maple,.,Sinew back and induce reflex...one of those should work,..
If ur backing holds up as is,,,this bow is working,,,
If u pull it to 28,,.it will be close to 175
     Keep in mind ,..if u Sinew...u can draw it further if need be,,.I have never put Sinew over a backing,..but seems like it would work...and I am thinking,,,.putting on the Sinew before shooting it in would give best speed,,,but am spitballing
Title: Re: New project
Post by: DC on March 23, 2019, 09:22:33 am
Ya know, if these things would give you warning before they broke this would be a whole lot easier. I too, would like to try that Sleek. I'm just a little chicken. In my weight loss efforts I thinned out the slpice area a bit. That kinda moved the point of the "V" further out by 1/2" or so. If I tiller into that area it will lighten it more and give me a bit more WL. I'm just heading out to the garage now, I'll give it a look.
Title: Re: New project
Post by: bradsmith2010 on March 23, 2019, 09:25:16 am
 (-P
Title: Re: New project
Post by: sleek on March 23, 2019, 09:32:17 am
Ya know, if these things would give you warning before they broke this would be a whole lot easier. I too, would like to try that Sleek. I'm just a little chicken. In my weight loss efforts I thinned out the slpice area a bit. That kinda moved the point of the "V" further out by 1/2" or so. If I tiller into that area it will lighten it more and give me a bit more WL. I'm just heading out to the garage now, I'll give it a look.

Sounds like a plan. Its always easy to watch a guinnie pig, not easy to be one. Sometimes, i get frustrated and say f**** it, its either gonna be a damn bow or its gonna break, either way somethings gonna happen and its gonna happen now.
Title: Re: New project
Post by: DC on March 23, 2019, 09:33:13 am
(-P
Can you imagine how long and drawn out this will be if I sinew. You'll need two bags ;D ;D
Title: Re: New project
Post by: sleek on March 23, 2019, 09:34:34 am
(-P
Can you imagine how long and drawn out this will be if I sinew. You'll need two bags ;D ;D
After a hibernation period.
Title: Re: New project
Post by: DC on March 23, 2019, 09:36:01 am
Ya know, if these things would give you warning before they broke this would be a whole lot easier. I too, would like to try that Sleek. I'm just a little chicken. In my weight loss efforts I thinned out the slpice area a bit. That kinda moved the point of the "V" further out by 1/2" or so. If I tiller into that area it will lighten it more and give me a bit more WL. I'm just heading out to the garage now, I'll give it a look.

Sounds like a plan. Its always easy to watch a guinnie pig, not easy to be one. Sometimes, i get frustrated and say f**** it, its either gonna be a damn bow or its gonna break, either way somethings gonna happen and its gonna happen now.
Now that I'm thinking about sinew it makes it tougher because the bow has to be in one piece to sinew.
Title: Re: New project
Post by: sleek on March 23, 2019, 09:52:01 am
Have fun :) IDK what to say about sinew. Im not a sinew guy.
Title: Re: New project
Post by: DC on March 23, 2019, 10:07:35 am
After a little work on the splice area it's 38#@28". 10gpp was 183fps, 8gpp was 198fps.
Title: Re: New project
Post by: sleek on March 23, 2019, 10:17:25 am
After a little work on the splice area it's 38#@28". 10gpp was 183fps, 8gpp was 198fps.

Hell yeah! Thats the stuff im talkin bout right there!
Title: Re: New project
Post by: bradsmith2010 on March 23, 2019, 10:17:32 am
congrats on that one,, really nice work,, getting it to shoot so nice,,good save,, I think Sleek was right about how much energy the bow was storing,, and you let it out in a good way,, :OK
Picasso said sometimes the difference between a failure and a masterpiece is only  a few brush strokes,, :BB
Title: Re: New project
Post by: sleek on March 23, 2019, 10:18:29 am
I knew 37 was the best draw weight for that im so tickled i could laugh out loud right now!!!!!
Title: Re: New project
Post by: DC on March 23, 2019, 10:21:08 am
I think I'l go out and shoot it. I haven't done that yet. ;D
Title: Re: New project
Post by: sleek on March 23, 2019, 10:24:18 am
I think I'l go out and shoot it. I haven't done that yet. ;D

Wear safety glasses. And maybe consider a small sinew patch on the trouble area later. Just for peace of mind.
Title: Re: New project
Post by: PatM on March 23, 2019, 10:24:48 am
We know energy storage means little unless you're getting it back on the release, but if you know the energy storage is very high then there is almost always a way of tweaking things to extract the most of it.
Title: Re: New project
Post by: DC on March 23, 2019, 10:31:15 am
Keep in mind that these numbers were gotten on a shooting machine. I thoroughly believe that they are accurate but they will be higher than you are used to seeing unless you have an excellent release.
Title: Re: New project
Post by: DC on March 23, 2019, 10:55:56 am
I raised the BH about an inch for fletching clearance and shot 30 arrows. No serving yet so I stopped at that. Came in and put it on the tree and got 40#@28". BH gives another 2#??. Took about 1/2" of set, I'm checking to see how much returns. I've got so many lines on my sheet of paper it's hard to tell. Anyway, shoots as nice as any bow I've made. I like it. May just leave it alone. Tart it up bit. Yeah.
Title: Re: New project
Post by: sleek on March 23, 2019, 11:01:35 am
I raised the BH about an inch for fletching clearance and shot 30 arrows. No serving yet so I stopped at that. Came in and put it on the tree and got 40#@28". BH gives another 2#??. Took about 1/2" of set, I'm checking to see how much returns. I've got so many lines on my sheet of paper it's hard to tell. Anyway, shoots as nice as any bow I've made. I like it. May just leave it alone. Tart it up bit. Yeah.
Yes, brace height increases draw weight a touch, as you preload the limbs a bit more, thats my understanding anyway.  1/2 inch set is really darn good. Next go at it, make it 1/8 to 1/4 wider to take no set. A second option is, build an extra half inch of deflex in to match the amount of set this one took. That will also be a zero set bow.
Title: Re: New project
Post by: sleek on March 23, 2019, 11:08:52 am
Any more tiller work you do, may take a look at the inner third of the lower limb. Its a mite stiff.
Title: Re: New project
Post by: sleek on March 23, 2019, 11:09:59 am
Can we get another full draw?
Title: Re: New project
Post by: bradsmith2010 on March 23, 2019, 11:24:49 am
Back in the day, and this has been disputed,, Tim Baker wrote that the lower brace height would shoot harder, and that even with the increased draw weight with higher brace,, you would loose some fps,,
 :NN
Title: Re: New project
Post by: sleek on March 23, 2019, 11:42:40 am
Back in the day, and this has been disputed,, Tim Baker wrote that the lower brace height would shoot harder, and that even with the increased draw weight with higher brace,, you would loose some fps,,
 :NN

And I agree. You loose power stroke, gain set, but its only gping to affect a few fps.
Title: Re: New project
Post by: DC on March 23, 2019, 12:17:41 pm
I think I tried this on one of my bows. Raised and lowered the BH by an inch. It didn't make a measurable difference. That's if I can trust my memory ;D So many of these things work in theory but if there's a plus and minus(like draw weight versus power stroke) you need to know actual data (like how much does one help and how much does the other hurt) or you don't know what the result will be. There's a few things that are only positive, like tip weight. At least as far as I know. The lighter it is the better it is. Until it breaks.
Title: Re: New project
Post by: sleek on March 23, 2019, 12:17:52 pm
Of course,  those losses mean nothing if the bow just shoots better at a higher brace.
Title: Re: New project
Post by: willie on March 23, 2019, 12:45:32 pm
Quote
but I've been through this before, you have to take an awful lot off the tips to make any dif.

Don, I havent tried to plot your results as reported, but do you think the limb lightening has more of an effect on the lighter arrows?

Title: Re: New project
Post by: sleek on March 23, 2019, 12:55:32 pm
Quote
but I've been through this before, you have to take an awful lot off the tips to make any dif.

Don, I havent tried to plot your results as reported, but do you think the limb lightening has more of an effect on the lighter arrows?

Id guess it does, as the bow nears dry fire speed, the tip mass comes more into play than otherwise.
Title: Re: New project
Post by: PatM on March 23, 2019, 01:00:55 pm
Here's a sinewed  bow with no horn showing similar structure with short bending limbs and long relatively static outer portions.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vxCqekHiAaM
Title: Re: New project
Post by: DC on March 23, 2019, 01:26:14 pm
Quote
but I've been through this before, you have to take an awful lot off the tips to make any dif.

Don, I havent tried to plot your results as reported, but do you think the limb lightening has more of an effect on the lighter arrows?

I'm going to have to go with"I don't know". It's something I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around. I think the physics says the lighter it is the faster it can accelerate. I know there is a reason that "AA"Fuelers don't weigh 2 tons. Taking weight off the tips is taking weight off that is halfway(roughly) to the arrow divided by two tips. Dunno :D
Title: Re: New project
Post by: maitus on March 23, 2019, 01:37:31 pm
After a little work on the splice area it's 38#@28". 10gpp was 183fps, 8gpp was 198fps.

Srry, but its hard to believe  :D. Its 17kg and 198 fps? Its about 40 fps faster than the same draw weight plastic longbow. My fastest bow has been sinew backed junniper and 230 fps. But it was 30kg draw :D. If Your crono is not out of order, then congratulation  :D ! I would never be able to make such a efective bow.
 I have a junniper/bamboo/sinew shorty in work and im very excited what will be the results :).
Title: Re: New project
Post by: sleek on March 23, 2019, 01:47:34 pm
After a little work on the splice area it's 38#@28". 10gpp was 183fps, 8gpp was 198fps.

Srry, but its hard to believe  :D. Its 17kg and 198 fps? Its about 40 fps faster than the same draw weight plastic longbow. My fastest bow has been sinew backed junniper and 230 fps. But it was 30kg draw :D. If Your crono is not out of order, then congratulation  :D ! I would never be able to make such a efective bow.
 I have a junniper/bamboo/sinew shorty in work and im very excited what will be the results :).

Plastic makes a terrible bow. So does glass, it just lasts longer. Natural materials outperform every time when the builder knows what he is doing.

Draw weight has 0 zero, zip, zilch, nada, to do with arrow speed, its all about stored energy, effeciency, and arrow weight. I can assure you, his chrono is in working order.

You could make a bow like that, if you study this thread well. I think it should be stickied for all future refernces on how to build a bow.
Title: Re: New project
Post by: maitus on March 23, 2019, 02:06:12 pm
My last bow, i have made for my son, is elm selfbow 19 kg at 29 inch draw. It makes 170 fps with 32 grams arrow. I think its not very bad either :D...
Title: Re: New project
Post by: DC on March 23, 2019, 02:18:59 pm
My last bow, i have made for my son, is elm selfbow 19 kg at 29 inch draw. It makes 170 fps with 32 grams arrow. I think its not very bad either :D...
32 grams is 493 grains. 19kg is 40# Your arrows in this case are 100 grains heavy for 10 GPP. Make a 25 gram arrow and try it. It sounds like a fast bow Maitus. Also I test with a shooting machine. I gives very consistent results and eliminates human bad releases. I do very poorly shooting through the chrono. The machine is about 10fps faster than I can do. I mentioned this back a few posts.
Title: Re: New project
Post by: maitus on March 23, 2019, 02:38:40 pm
Wow, then i have some hope to make fast bows, thank You :D!
Title: Re: New project
Post by: sleek on March 23, 2019, 06:27:01 pm
Man, this thread was so good, im gonna need to go outside and smoke a cigarette. Nothing like a happy ending. Looking for pics of it all dolled up!
Title: Re: New project
Post by: DC on March 23, 2019, 06:33:54 pm
Got two coats of oil on it, new tips. Just trying to decide what to do for the grip. If anything.
Title: Re: New project
Post by: bradsmith2010 on March 23, 2019, 07:15:24 pm
grip needs to be pretty fancy,, :)
Title: Re: New project
Post by: RandyN on March 23, 2019, 07:45:06 pm
DC, Great job on he bow. Nice save on the splinter. I never considered using thread for a wrap like that. I have learned a bunch reading this post. You are an incredibly talented bowyer.  Randy
Title: Re: New project
Post by: Rākau on March 24, 2019, 12:36:22 am
As a beginer with a few under my belt this was, hands down, the most eye opening post I have read on here (and I've damn near read them all). The patience and the incredible eye for detail that you have DC is incredible, so too was the awesome enthusiasm and advice from Sleek. It really just shows what is meant by the term Master. Should be stickied and put front and center of the how to.
Title: Re: New project
Post by: simson on March 24, 2019, 03:23:16 am
Awesome bow, DC.
This something different - love it. You did great!
Title: Re: New project
Post by: DC on March 24, 2019, 07:30:19 am
Randy-I'm glad you learned something. The thread idea was not mine, it's been around for a long time. I've only been at this 5 years, I've got an awful lot to learn. The guys that have been on here a while are the real bowyers. I just copy them.

NZ- If it hadn't been for Sleek enthusiasm, this thread wouldn't have amounted to much I don't think

Simon- great to see you back on here. Thank you very much. It means a lot coming from a real bowyer

Brad- I'll do my best ;D
Title: Re: New project
Post by: DC on March 24, 2019, 08:01:55 am
Quote
but I've been through this before, you have to take an awful lot off the tips to make any dif.

Don, I havent tried to plot your results as reported, but do you think the limb lightening has more of an effect on the lighter arrows?

Willie, you've probably already seen this but just in case https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/paleoplanet69529/a-quick-study-of-the-stiff-limbed-hickman-thought--t16901-s40.html
Title: Re: New project
Post by: sleek on March 24, 2019, 08:50:59 am
Randy-I'm glad you learned something. The thread idea was not mine, it's been around for a long time. I've only been at this 5 years, I've got an awful lot to learn. The guys that have been on here a while are the real bowyers. I just copy them.

NZ- If it hadn't been for Sleek enthusiasm, this thread wouldn't have amounted to much I don't think

Simon- great to see you back on here. Thank you very much. It means a lot coming from a real bowyer

Brad- I'll do my best ;D

I can be quite an excitable fellow at times. This proved to be worrh every ounce of it too. Love this bow, love the results. The plan came together perfectly. The execution was flawless. The results came out exactly as the formula predicted within a margin of error due to differences in wood density. Im very proud of how all this went. Your success on this is worth being proud of!
Title: Re: New project
Post by: sleek on March 24, 2019, 08:52:18 am
And to think, this was just scraps.
Title: Re: New project
Post by: bradsmith2010 on March 24, 2019, 09:04:08 am
I read the link u posted,..so with a heavier arrow,,,the mass of the tips does not effect arrow speed so much..but with a lighter arrow,..the tip with less mass has a positive effect on arrow speed.
      The heavier the arrow,..the less critical bow tip weight would be?
Title: Re: New project
Post by: willie on March 24, 2019, 09:16:53 am
Thanks for the link Don, I haven't read that in many years, worth re reading.

I quess I was asking if you were building finessing the limbs for flight shooting? you are already a quite light arrow.
Title: Re: New project
Post by: DC on March 24, 2019, 09:38:46 am
Sleek-I'm looking at my staves to see if I have two that are long enough to cut two feet off so I have the "scraps" to do it again I think.

Brad- That's how I'm reading it. It was actually PatM that posted it first. I was just reposting it for Willie

Willie- I really just build for speed. It just happens to be the same stuff as flight shooting. We've only shot flight twice in two years. Finding 300 or more grassy yards is tough to find here. Would like to do more of it though. Speed is just about bows. Flight is about bows and arrows.

Title: Re: New project
Post by: DC on March 24, 2019, 09:48:24 am
I was just looking at the oil on the back of the bow. See the dark bands running across the limb. These are scallops caused by my very slightly out of round drum sander. I normally run them thought the belt sander to smooth them out. Somehow I forgot or maybe glued the lam on upside down. Do you think this may have contributed to lifting the splinter?
Title: Re: New project
Post by: sleek on March 24, 2019, 09:59:34 am
If you do make another, keep in mind the two options, use the formula, and base it off this bow you just built, or copy this bow exactly, and put enough deflex in the new one to match the just unbraced profile this one has. That will compensate for set either way you go.

I like your finger splice jig. Mind doing a thread on that?

The backing glued upside down may very well be the cause of that splinter. Not a smooth surrface, wood will pop.
Title: Re: New project
Post by: DC on March 24, 2019, 10:07:15 am
The jig only kind of works. It's very close but I still have to do an hour or so of fitting and fettleing (as Del says). If I ever get it so it's more bulletproof I'll do something.
Title: Re: New project
Post by: bradsmith2010 on March 24, 2019, 10:10:23 am
DC,, I dont think the scallops are helping,,  :NN
might have contributed to the splinter,, hard to tell,, glad its holding up now,,
Title: Re: New project
Post by: DC on March 24, 2019, 10:32:05 am
You guys are going to have to wait a bit for the finished article. I just took a look a Simon's new bow and broke out the 100 grit again ;D ;D
Title: Re: New project
Post by: sleek on March 24, 2019, 10:39:36 am
Haha.... yeah, careful, ypu can change the tiller like that.
Title: Re: New project
Post by: PatM on March 24, 2019, 10:41:12 am
Definitely the ripples in the back are dangerous.  That's really not much different from cutting through the grain.
Title: Re: New project
Post by: sleek on March 24, 2019, 10:43:12 am
Id take the repair wrap off to do all my finish sanding, otherwise you may develop a step at the wrap and cause a stress riser to form there.

Get her dolled up, and id bet ole patches may become your favorite bow for awhile.
Title: Re: New project
Post by: DC on March 24, 2019, 12:25:34 pm
I was going to do that because I had some difficulty with the wraps. I wound them on with great care so that each thread was laying right beside its neighbour. They were nice and smooth. When I put the CA on(as little as I could) the threads seemed to jump up. In the picture the sanding dust accents it. They were laying right side by each until the glue hit. Maybe I should use wood glue or something that I could wipe down?? Don't know why the wood is so much darker on one side of the wrap. It isn't in real life.
Title: Re: New project
Post by: sleek on March 24, 2019, 12:34:29 pm
Honestly, id give hide glue a try as it shrinks while it dries, it would pull any gaps closer, as well as permeate the string and crack. Then your finish over the glue will waterproof it.
Title: Re: New project
Post by: PatM on March 24, 2019, 01:59:27 pm
Epoxy is also better.  I would use silk buttonhole thread so you don't have to worry about each strand lying exactly next to the other.

 Actually I would still sinew instead to be honest. ;)
Title: Re: New project
Post by: Woodely on March 24, 2019, 02:23:04 pm
Dont know what some of you guys gat against TB.  I have used TB on wrap repairs like that and it holds quite well, if it lets go then it tells me there is obviously to much stress in that area.  Band-aids are what they are.   Or do what Sleek says "give hide glue a try"

I have seen lots of manufactured old bows de-laminate and I dont think they were using water based glues.
Title: Re: New project
Post by: willie on March 24, 2019, 02:43:30 pm
I guess the speed is all the bow sees...

very nice project. bet you already have some more ideas to try next.

have you inputted your specs into any design programs or made photos to overlay, as a reference for the next try?
Title: Re: New project
Post by: sleek on March 24, 2019, 02:45:15 pm
Dont know what some of you guys gat against TB.  I have used TB on wrap repairs like that and it holds quite well, if it lets go then it tells me there is obviously to much stress in that area.  Band-aids are what they are.   Or do what Sleek says "give hide glue a try"

I have seen lots of manufactured old bows de-laminate and I dont think they were using water based glues.

I use it all the time. He wants something that will finish better.
Title: Re: New project
Post by: DC on March 24, 2019, 04:25:40 pm
I like epoxy but it goes on a little thick. I would have to practice a bit with it. I'm thinking the hide glue is removable. If it goes on a bit lumpy I can just wipe it with a damp cloth and get back to looking like fresh thread. That's my plan anyhow.
Title: Re: New project
Post by: bradsmith2010 on March 24, 2019, 04:28:23 pm
Is string serving too thick?
Title: Re: New project
Post by: PatM on March 24, 2019, 05:12:12 pm
I like epoxy but it goes on a little thick. I would have to practice a bit with it. I'm thinking the hide glue is removable. If it goes on a bit lumpy I can just wipe it with a damp cloth and get back to looking like fresh thread. That's my plan anyhow.

 Warm WEST 105 with a drop of lacquer thinner.  Tape off the binding and paint it on with a watercolor paintbrush.
Title: Re: New project
Post by: DC on March 24, 2019, 05:29:02 pm
I think serving string would work, I used upholstery thread. The hide glue worked good so far. While I was rewrapping it I discovered why it worked so poorly last time. I thought the way I was wrapping was bulletproof but I was actually overlapping a couple of wraps. That was making the lumps. I couldn't feel them until I got the glue on. This time I examined it with a 10x magnifying glass and I could see the laps and undo them. I could have used CA just fine. Expert bowyer my butt ;D ;D
Title: Re: New project
Post by: ohma2 on March 25, 2019, 10:01:57 am
Upholstery thread has worked well for me soaked with thin super gllue.
Looking forward to seeing it .
Title: Re: New project
Post by: DC on March 25, 2019, 10:28:28 am
It's nice and dry now and looks like there is no glue on it, just the look I wanted. I'll oil it as soon as the garage is warmer.
Title: Re: New project
Post by: simson on March 25, 2019, 11:04:02 am
Looks like the ca glue did react with some other stuff. Do have ammonia on the wood? Or is the thread soaked in some chemicals?
Title: Re: New project
Post by: sleek on March 25, 2019, 11:05:23 am
It's nice and dry now and looks like there is no glue on it, just the look I wanted. I'll oil it as soon as the garage is warmer.

Are you confident in having enough glue on it?
Title: Re: New project
Post by: DC on March 25, 2019, 11:12:29 am
I think so I soaked it and let it gell a bit and wiped it with a damp rag just enough to take any lumps and clumps off. We'll find out.
Title: Re: New project
Post by: sleek on March 25, 2019, 11:40:30 am
You are probably fine then bud.
Title: Re: New project
Post by: sleek on December 29, 2022, 12:05:48 pm
Hey DC, resurrecting this old thread to ask if you ever finished up this bow? Also wondering if you had any interest in trying for making another thats faster?