Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: DC on April 14, 2019, 10:21:14 am
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Is the choice of the front profile purely aesthetic? I realise each one has its own tillering needs but parallel, leaf shaped, pyramid etc. Does one do different things than the others. Just keep it to straight bows, I realise that recurves like a little width at the end to counter twist.
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Oooooh... don't start me on this one! >:( >:D
http://www.primitivearcher.com/smf/index.php/topic,45989.msg625332.html#msg625332 (http://www.primitivearcher.com/smf/index.php/topic,45989.msg625332.html#msg625332)
Del
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This isn't about tiller, it's just about the shape itself. You can tiller it any way you please. ;D
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This isn't about tiller, it's just about the shape itself. You can tiller it any way you please. ;D
Au contraire ::)
It's all about tiller, but you can have it any shape you like ;D >:D
Del
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IMHO, a pyramid bow should be tillered to bend more where the wood is widest which is the near handle area resulting in a more circular tiller.
Conversely, a stave with parallel limbs should have an elliptical tiller.
All of this is to diminish set.
Jawge
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Agree with jawge. The front profile does matter to me. If I can keep the midlimbs from taking set by keeping them a tad wider, and I can, then it’s worth considering. Once that decision is made you can fret over tiller shape.
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A agree with Del. I've never bought the tiller/front profile matching theory.
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But this question is not about the tiller. ;D ;D It's just about the front profile shape. Is it just cosmetic or is there a reason for choosing pyramid over parallel or vice versa.
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My opinion, yes it matters irrespective of the tiller shape. I did straight pyramids in all my early bows. It worked fine on many, but some took set midlimb especially if I stiffened and recurved the tips. By widening the width of the limb mid limb, it minimized that problem. On my early Hackberry bows set was a real problem. I now carry the width out nearly to the tips, like a Meare Heath type design. That and a better understanding of the benefits of heat tempering....My Hackberry takes no more set than any other woods.....Then we get into the whole "tiller should match the front profile"kerfuffle. Del might swallow his pipe if we get to deep into that topic. (I don't know if Del smokes a pipe, but it sounds so utterly ...British). :)
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i think it might be a consideration,, depending on the type of wood,,
for example, hickhory might like being a little wider ,, than osage,, some profiles giving a higher rate of succes with certain types of wood,,
as seen ,, most woods can make a pretty good bow with a profile not normally used,,,hickory can make a narrow long bow,, but yew might make a better narrow long bow,, etc etc,,etc,,
sometimes I choose a wider profile,, if I am making draw long for the length of wood,, )P(
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Depends how hard you want to work the wood.
Jim Davis will be here shortly to espouse the pyramid as the only necessary bow design. ;)
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Tim Baker as well I believe.
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Pyramid bows are all about obtaining proper tiller: Correct..?? Personally I do not like the looks of Pyramid bows. I never build a bow wider than 1 7/16" - 1 9/16".. As far as twist goes if I cant correct it, the bow hangs on the wall of shame. (--)
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(-P
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Cmon Brad. This was your turn. 🤔
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Just as an admission...I do tend to believe that best practice is to have the tiller shape match the profile, but...I am free to follow the practice, or disregard it entirely. And I do disregard it.....66 inch “Knotty Boy” from a few years ago. Parallel through the middle 2/3’s. Bendy handle. Should have an elliptical (for lack of a better term) tiller shape. With all the knots, I felt it needed the bend equal at the handle to spread the load. So I tillered it circular despite the profile. I believe that was the right call as it remains my favorite bow for all kinds of reasons. We can make them however we feel we need to make them. Hope that tidies things up with Del. 😇
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SLIMBOB,,you are right,, it was totally my turn,, but somehow I think DC tricked me into a pyramid bow discussion,,
and of course all bows are a little pyramid,,cuase they narrow at the tips,, right,, (--)
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Bows? I thought we were discussing architecture.
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I've always made my bows tapered from the fades to the tip(just to distinquish it from Dels). I would call them spear shaped. There is taper all the way down but not even taper. That's just looked right to me. I only started leaving the outers a little wider when I was recurving them. It seemed to make them a little more stable. As for tiller, I have this hazy picture in my brain of what a nice bend is and I just try to make that. It's just somewhere between bending too much in the fades and whip tillered. As long as both sides are the same I'm happy.
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I think the reason that there does not seem to be a consensus in this thread on what the best profile is, is because it doesn't exist. I don't believe that there is one layout that is the best in all situations. For a bow to maximize its potential for its intended purpose, the wood, layout and tiller need to compliment eachother. Sometimes it may mean keeping the bow wider in the inner limbs to avoid taking set when they are under a lot of strain and tapering down to avoid a sluggish bow. For another design, wide inner limbs may not be necessary and a parallel limb will give you a better performing bow. Its all a balance between aesthetics, performance and durability.
And if I'm wrong and there is one profile that is best in all situations, I hope we never prove it, it would get pretty boring seeing everyone make the same thing in different lengths over and over. :)
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whatever you do...
Never make a bow wider than the stave ::)
Del
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??? I'm with Del, haha imaginary width won't do squat >:D Imaginary friends on the other hand. . .
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I think the reason that there does not seem to be a consensus in this thread on what the best profile is, is because it doesn't exist. I don't believe that there is one layout that is the best in all situations. For a bow to maximize its potential for its intended purpose, the wood, layout and tiller need to compliment eachother. Sometimes it may mean keeping the bow wider in the inner limbs to avoid taking set when they are under a lot of strain and tapering down to avoid a sluggish bow. For another design, wide inner limbs may not be necessary and a parallel limb will give you a better performing bow. Its all a balance between aesthetics, performance and durability.
And if I'm wrong and there is one profile that is best in all situations, I hope we never prove it, it would get pretty boring seeing everyone make the same thing in different lengths over and over. :)
I think you do have worthy contributions airkha. That quote pretty much sums up my feelings. I often times make my front profile using what my piece of wood will give me. Del's bow might be exaggerated but I have a few that start out slightly narrower than I'd prefer and then get a little wider. I have lots that go around knots. I honestly have never made a pyramid bow. I don't know why. Just haven't. Like DC said I have a fuzzy idea what a tiller should look like in my head. Not sure it's the best tiller or if it matches the front profile. It has changed over the years. It seems to work for me.
Bjrogg
PS variety is the spice of life. It's what keeps this so interesting.
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I think the reason that there does not seem to be a consensus in this thread on what the best profile is, is because it doesn't exist. I don't believe that there is one layout that is the best in all situations. For a bow to maximize its potential for its intended purpose, the wood, layout and tiller need to compliment eachother. Sometimes it may mean keeping the bow wider in the inner limbs to avoid taking set when they are under a lot of strain and tapering down to avoid a sluggish bow. For another design, wide inner limbs may not be necessary and a parallel limb will give you a better performing bow. Its all a balance between aesthetics, performance and durability.
And if I'm wrong and there is one profile that is best in all situations, I hope we never prove it, it would get pretty boring seeing everyone make the same thing in different lengths over and over. :)
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Sorry don't know what happened there.
Bjrogg
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In the immortal words of “Bear Claw” on Jeremiah Johnson, ”....Seen it right off”.
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the next bowyers bible edition really needs del to write a chapter on the pitfalls of using imaginary wood in a front profile :)
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I like your attitude!
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ok then its settled ,, pyramid is the best,, :)
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I've always made my bows tapered from the fades to the tip(just to distinquish it from Dels). I would call them spear shaped. There is taper all the way down but not even taper. That's just looked right to me. I only started leaving the outers a little wider when I was recurving them. It seemed to make them a little more stable. As for tiller, I have this hazy picture in my brain of what a nice bend is and I just try to make that. It's just somewhere between bending too much in the fades and whip tillered. As long as both sides are the same I'm happy.
a lot of the old discussion about a particular width shape calling for a particular bend (elliptical or circular, etc) presumes you are desiring the limb to have equal strain throughout its length.
of course, we often find reasons to want stiffer (less strained) handle areas or tips, so we should rephrase DC's opening question to the "shape vs bend" for the working part of the limb.
If for instance, one were to build a bow with a very short working limb, then keeping that working area of the limb strained equally becomes more critical, and if the tapering in that area is in thickness, then the bend radius of that working area needs to show a proportional increase as the limb thins.
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I understand that the stave very often determines the type of tiller.
Be that as it may, if you want to make a pyramid bow would you want to tiller it elliptically or would you tiller it to have a more circular tiller? I vote for circular to cut down on set.
To me it makes sense that the near handle, wider wood should bend more giving the bow a more circular tiller.
Sure one can tiller a stave with parallel limbs to have a rounded tiller. Might be a bit shocky (too much wood working) ? Not sure as I've never done it.
Interesting discussion.
Jawge
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I think I know where Dells "celtic" bow design comes from. There were several bronze age bows found on the Lötschenpass in Switzerland with this bow width layout. I wonder why these bows were designed like that. Neolithic bows show narrower bow tips.
lonbow
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Is the choice of the front profile purely aesthetic? I realise each one has its own tillering needs but parallel, leaf shaped, pyramid etc. Does one do different things than the others. Just keep it to straight bows, I realise that recurves like a little width at the end to counter twist.
My bows are more about function than aesthetics but looks also play a part as well.
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Shooting a heavier arrow,,,the larger tips would not effect performance as much...at least that's what the guys said in some discussions lately,,.may be they left them to be more durable?
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So far as I see things, everything we do with these wood bows is done in small measures with the goal of making small gains. Too much of almost any good thing brings with it diminishing returns. Too much reflex, too much deflex, too narrow, too wide, too short, too long. The list goes on. I see lite tips that way. They look more refined and can add a bump in performance. But some of my favorite bows have heavier tips than others. I can’t tell much difference personally. To a point.
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I think the leaf profile should determine the tiller in that it's a d bow in the middle,flaring out to a flat bow and then down to Molly style tip the way I have built a couple out of heat treated elm.the big thing is make the cross section transitions smooth from what I've seen.this design also takes very little set.