Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: jhoang719 on April 18, 2019, 05:21:45 pm
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Hi everyone!
I recently got this Osage stave and there are cracks between the growth rings. The person I got the stave from glued the cracks to see if they travelled any further and they didn't. The stave is already shaved down to a single growth ring on the back. Can this stave still make a bow? Do I keep going down growth rings until there aren't cracks? The stave is 60" long, 2.5" wide, and 2" thick. The growth rings are about 1/4" thick.
Cheers, Jonathan
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Another area that had a crack
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I don't see the cracks, having said that, a delam is not good if that's what you got. A crack along the early growth between the rings? That's a delamination. I think moisture gets in between the rings and some decay takes place in the early growth. I have one with that very problem from a few years ago. I filled with CA glue and and it's never been a problem. Better picture is needed to make a good call on it.
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I'm thinking I'd go below the delamination. I'll go with a drying check but delamination I'd try to avoid. I'm guessing Clint will give his advice. It's probably better than mine. It'd help to have the stave in my hand to really evaluate it properly.
Bjrogg
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Split it in half along that delam. If you got enough wood you can use it to build a laminate bow, if not, you didn't loose anything. As it is, it's no good. Check for more, if it has one, it may have more. Looks kinda like a wind check k. Those kill bows.
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Thanks for chiming in guys! These are on the early growth between rings so I guess it is delamination. Still kinda new with terminology and such. The areas between the delamination are filled with super glue. There are a few areas on the stave that have these delaminations.
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I would not trust those cracks in a bow limb. I would remove them if you can.
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I'm thinking like sleek said but hard to know for sure from pictures. If it's all the same ring I'd try to do like sleek said and split it off. Just use a couple big flat screwdrivers and pry off the delamination. Then chase ring on the belly split. I'm guessing it's a wind check to. Hopefully it doesn't go to deep.
Bjrogg
Like Clint said I'd try to get under that delamination.
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Cool. Looks like the worst delamination is two rings down and there is still gonna be a workable stave beyond those rings. i'm gonna try and get under
the delamination and go from there. Thanks for the advice guys. Wish me luck!
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I think delamination is the wrong term to use for such a crack. Those aren't delams. A bow can only DElaminate if its first been laminated, imo. To me they look like regular drying checks.
Staves can get drying checks anywhere. Back, belly, ends, or sides. If they do get drying checks, WHERE they get them depends on other factors like wood type, whether the bark and sapwood was left on, how, how quickly they were dried, width and thickness while it dried, and more. I've seen perfectly good, beautiful staves, left with the bark on and dried too quickly acquire drying checks just like yours, while others from the same log, that instead had the bark, sapwood, and excess width and belly wood removed earlier, and dried more slowly, were perfectly fine.
I wouldn't make a bow with even one of those checks in it. If I can remove all of it, fine, I'll use it. If there are too many or one is in a real bad spot and can't be removed without ruining it for use as bow wood, I'd burn it. If it was one I paid for, I'd get reimbursed.
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Here is my finding; If you use that stave and get below the cracks more will show up and your bow will fail. I have had 100% failure in bows with side checks. I now consign side check wood to the tool handle pile, the wood doesn't have structural integrity.
I sinewed a bow that had a few side check in the handle section that I had worked down past the checks. Surprise, Surprise, the sinew delaminated the wood.
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I think delamination is the wrong term to use for such a crack. Those aren't delams. A bow can only DElaminate if its first been laminated, imo. To me they look like regular drying checks.
Staves can get drying checks anywhere. Back, belly, ends, or sides. If they do get drying checks, WHERE they get them depends on other factors like wood type, whether the bark and sapwood was left on, how, how quickly they were dried, width and thickness while it dried, and more. I've seen perfectly good, beautiful staves, left with the bark on and dried too quickly acquire drying checks just like yours, while others from the same log, that instead had the bark, sapwood, and excess width and belly wood removed earlier, and dried more slowly, were perfectly fine.
I wouldn't make a bow with even one of those checks in it. If I can remove all of it, fine, I'll use it. If there are too many or one is in a real bad spot and can't be removed without ruining it for use as bow wood, I'd burn it. If it was one I paid for, I'd get reimbursed.
I think folks are just using the term lamination to describe a growth ring as a natural lamination laid down by the tree with the early growth representing the glue.
It's not really an inaccurate description.
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Respectfully disagree with Mr. Squirrel, but only in the academic sense. Drying checks are just that, checks or splits in the wood cause by the wood drying and causing uneven forces in the wood which pull it apart along the grain. Shakes are a different animal that are present in the wood before you start the drying process. They used to be called "wind shakes" as it was thought that these were caused by the wind. The research now indicates that they are areas of decay caused by bacteria. The term "delam" simply indicates that what God joined together, the two hardwood rings, is separating along the early wood that binds them together. In the final analysis we agree mostly. These are a bow killer in most cases. Best advice is to get beyond them if possible. Again, I cant see the shakes in the pics, so I offer no prescription on yours. I agree with the consensus that they are bad news.
Edit....I say that I agree that they are bow killers and I do believe they are bad news, but this is only because most everyone that has dealt with them will tell you that. Personally, I have only dealt with one and it is still shooting today.
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If like Eric's pic it's trash. If small say 6" long I have run a single edge razor blade I the crack and filled with thin supper glue and clamped with good success. Arvin
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That looks like a drying check. I've made bows with drying checks that lasted and shot just fine.
Remove it if you can though.
It does not look like it is between the rings which is a different story and unusable.
Jawge
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I call them wind shakes. My understanding is it is cause when heavy winds twist trees causing this kind of "delamination" or crack.
Drying checks occur on the ends and along the surface of a ring, not along the side.
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Drying checks occur when the outside dries and shrinks faster than the inside, causing it to check/split on the outside as it shrinks. Those cracks, run 90° to the rings. Any other crack isn't from frying, it's from other stresses, such as torsional, or impact.
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back in the day, when osage was hard for me to get,, I would try anthing ,, just to see what would happnen,, made several bows with side checks,, that were ok,, but keep in mind, the bows was over built,, not stressing the wood to the max,, those do look bad,, if I tried it I would have no expection of success,,, but might be interesting to see if it worked at all,,
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I really don't have much experience with the wind checking or whatever we call it. It's a little hard to tell from pictures but if I'm seeing it right on my phone. Does it seem like all the early wood rings are very thin with thick late growth rings? Just wondering if that could be a reason for it. Could it be it growing conditions. Short spring and winter? Longer summer. Maybe coupled with a specific location? Exposed to wind. Don't mind me. I'm just thinking out loud. Almost like talking to myself.
Bjrogg
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This bow had multiple shakes along one edge. I was able to narrow down past all but this one. Ditto Arvin, I took and cleaned out any loose material with a razor. It was only about 1/8 inch deep by now as I had trimmed most of it away. I filled with CA glue and did not clamp it. Next day I filled it again, and then once again until it would take no more. This one may be the exception to the rule but never a problem.
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BJ, Like sleek said it is from torsion forces from wind. The reason it affects the early ring is because the early ring is corky and has less body.
Slimbob, can you narrow the stave to eliminate the shakes? I would have also filled with super glue but tried to narrow the stave to eliminate the visible shake.
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Just to clarify, I think those photos (on the original post) are of the side of the stave, yes? I think some of you are looking at them as if they are showing the back, but I think they are all sides...and so definitely between the rings.
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Got a pretty nice stave, deep enough for a nice belly split. Real close inspection after it set for a while in the basement revealed some serious wind shake. Sign. I did get the belly split, super sweet stave, but the upper half was able to yield a couple of slats fine for some kid's bows. First time that has happened to me, Just the breaks, no pun intended.
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Yeah I get the wind shake thing, but that's not always the reason for side checks. Some of you guys' explanations don't jive with my experience. For instance, a friend and I each took half of the stave's home from a tree we cut. ALL of his got numerous drying checks on the sides. NONE of mine got so much as a single check. The only difference was how we cared for them once we took them home. He was new at this, and I knew of how and where he planned to store them, with forced air from a wood burner blowing in the room and warned him, but... all ruined. I wasn't surprised when I saw them. Dang shame. They were beauts. I still have a few of mine left that didn't get 'shook' :OK
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I see no reason why a stave can't separate on the growth rings from just drying stresses. It's already a weak spot. At least in very ring porous woods.
Think of how easily you can often split a piggyback stave.
I'm actually a bit surprised that Osage, Ash and Locust don't just crumble apart along those rings through the years through repeated flexing.
If there was a glue that cured to an early wood type consistency we would expect that.
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some people have access to more wood,, so they can be a bit more discriminating on what they will use,,
so I dont fault anyone for trying a marginal piece of wood,, with realistic expectations,, I have been there and get it totally,, here is a pic with a long bow with side checks,, not saying its the best ,, but sometimes its worth the investment in time,, and will improve your skill level even if that bow is a failure,,
I still have this bow,, its about 25 years old,, I just cant pull it anymore,, (W
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Very cool!
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I split a lot of osage and very rarely have any issues with side checks. I cut a small dark red osage tree that was super hard and dense. Every stave developed side cracks after it dried. I've been able to remove them and made great bows from that wood.
I've noticed if I drawknife the side flat on a fresh cut stave it will often crack as it dries. If I seal it with glue they don't crack. These are just my observations from handling a lot of osage.
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thats great advice to put glue on the sides,, :BB
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ive Had end checks happen before I could get the log into the truck literally minutes after it was felled. Drying checks along the back have been more than common. I made a bow a few years ago from a beautiful darkish stave I got out of Oklahoma. I got a belly split off of it and put it in my shop while I worked on the back split. Not a check one on the back split. Several months later I tackled the belly split and chased a ring on the back. It checked on me before I reached the end of the stave. Bad enough that I couldn’t use it. Very odd that the upper part was perfectly fine. The few that had cracks along the sides all had been exposed to the weather to some degree I think. Wind shakes (Delams) have been a rarity for me.
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Wow Brad, talk about a picture being worth a thousand words. Reminds me of why these forums are so awesome. Knowledge and experience in abundance.
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The picture I posted is just the tip of the iceberg. The bow has similar cracks on both limbs, both sides almost full length. I filled the cracks with urac and clamped but the sinew pulled them apart again as it cured. This is just a bad piece of wood, weak stuff that the sinew could pull apart.
It seems like I tried 3 bows out of different side checked wood staves from different trees, 2 blew, the third is in the picture.
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Yes Timbo these are on the sides of the stave.
After reading through the replies I'm torn between getting past the voids or filling it with CA glue. Osage staves are kinda hard to come by where I live (California)
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getting past them would be the best,,,,
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I would do both, fill the checks with superglue let it set and then try to work past them. My thinking is the superglue will seep to places you might not be able easily see when you try to work past them.
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Very true, Eric. Excellent advice.