Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: nguidi328 on May 12, 2019, 11:55:24 am
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Hey Guys,
I have a bow I’ve roughed out and floor-tillered, it’s from an eastern hop horn beam stave I cut about 8 years ago. I think it’s going to be a great bow, but I noticed a hatchet nick in the back, about 6-8” from the top limb fade. Based on the depth, I assume it’s through the outermost growth ring.
What should I do? I was thinking fill with epoxy. Or do I need to back it?
Thanks!
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Yer Ok. Fill in with locktite 401 or BSI super thin super glue.
Youll be ok.
Shawn~
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Forget it's there and keep going. If you must do something to make yourself feel better, lightly pack some fine saw dust in there and then soak it in thin super glue till it wont hold any more. Then sand it smooth, or do a wrap around it when you are done tillering.
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By the time you round off the corners it will hardly show. It's right on the edge so it shouldn't be an issue.
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Thanks for the replies. So there’s no concern about this being the source of a break down the road? After putting in all this work, I feel like I need to be overly cautious. Probably will fill with sawdust/glue. Thanks guys!
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How far is it from the nick to the other end of the stave? What I mean is if you remove the nick how much width do you have.
Jawge
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Good idea, but it's a hair over 1-1/4" wide, so I'm pretty strapped for width as it is. I guess I'll just have to fill it.
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I think if it was me, I'd go ahead and round out the edges and then maybe fill it with superglue if I was still concerned
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I'll round it out a bit. How much can one round out the back? 1/4"?
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Yes, that would be too narrow. it is a good spot. Fill it with HHB sawdust set in glue as was suggested. Jawge
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Barely bending thick just out of fades in that area...Do as suggested with super glue and some dust, you'll forget it is there...Iron wood is really tough stuff...It has it's name for a reason...
Don
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I would fill with glue as suggested but wouldn't round off much, rounding will just put it on the edge and I would rather have it where it is than on the edge. JMO. HHB is tough so you should be fine. :)
Pappy
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I'm a little surprised by the answers so far. It looks like the bow is begging to break there on my computer screen. Good luck with it though.
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Thanks, rps3. Sorry. I read top. I missed that it was top limb fade.
I hate things like that on a working limb.
I'd draw knife it it out and leave it thicker in that area as I tillered.
Jawge
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It will probably be ok as the ones with experience suggested,.,is it possible to go down a growth ring to get rid of it,,,just thinking out loud,,,I have never worked with that wood(W
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Looks to me like it’s cracked behind the dent, and the crack runs right off the edge. If that’s an accurate assessment, it will break right there. The dent will make it happen quicker. I know the opinions have varied greatly, but that’s what I see, right or wrong.
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Good eye Slim, I never noticed that. That could make the difference. Maybe a thread or sinew wrap?
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Yep. Super glue, and then wrap it. Fast flight string makes a bullet proof wrap once it is soaked in CA glue. That’s my thoughts.
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You still have to get the bark off without adding to that mistake. I would rawhide back after smoothing the whole back down past that gouge.
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+1 for slimbob
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Well, I appreciate all the input folks, pretty bummed about this.
So the crack I think is a actually a cut, since it does intersect where that hatchet mark was. And much to my surprise, the cut goes deeper than the hatchet nick. I would think it was a crack at that point, but it doesn't run with the grain, leading me to believe its a cut (very straight line across the grain).
In any case, I've sanded down pretty far and it hasn't gone away, most definitely sanded through several growth rings on the back.
So I guess I have to back it? Any preference for sinew or rawhide for HHB? I'm afraid I won't hit my target weight now of 50# but I do have some to spare (floor-tillered) and I suppose the backing would add some poundage.
Since the growth rings are very thin with HHB, I can't tell how far into the center of the back that top growth ring goes. The close-up is the spot sanded to 800 grit with tung oil.
All advice is much appreciated! Thanks!
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all of the suggestions have been good advice,,, so I am not disagreeing at all,, this is just what I would do,,
I like to sinew back so that is always an option for me,,
I would take it down past that cut,Im not saying its necessary), then I would get it strung and calculate what I could get on my weight,,, if it is too light as a self bow,, then I would sinew back,, or finish it out in a lighter weight and move on to the next,,
thats just how I would do it now,,that being said,,
you could rawhide back as is,,
sinew back as is,, or make it as is and hope it holds up,, putting a wrap as suggested seems like a good way to go as well,,
I just made so many bows for other people,, I only put wraps on my own bows and would avoid that when making a bow for someone else,,
those are just my thoughts and only one way to approach it,, (-_)
the guys that have worked with the wood that said make it as is had a good point as well,, :)
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I'm gonna wax philosophical, and this is easier to preach than practice, but it's just a piece of wood until it flings an arrow. Best not to get too attached in case that piece of wood never does fling an arrow, which is a likely outcome with 'em. Having said that, it sucks investing time in these things and losing them. Fortunately yours is not a loss. You just have to do some problem solving. The really good bow makers I know can all tiller pretty well, and sand and finish, but they all have one big thing in common that's more important. They are all problem solvers. If you build enough of these things you'll run head first into every conceivable problem you can think up, Some wont be worth tackling the lost cause, but others, it's just a matter of figuring it out. This one can still be made into that nice bow you want. And it may be even more satisfying in the end knowing you overcame the obstacles that might have beaten many others.
Sinew is a big investment time wise, but it will fix it I believe. PatM says rawhide, another good idea. A thread wrap and CA glue is another option. Good luck and and just have fun with it.
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I've made quite a few bows of eastern hhb and have broken more of those in tension than any other wood. You could say it is because I am not a good bowyer, but no other wood has given me the fits this wood has. With that in mind, I would definitely take steps to minimize the risk of breakage if I was going to invest alot of time into a stave. A backing of some sort is what I would shoot for at this point. Good luck and keep us posted.
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I've never even seen a piece of HHB so take this with some salt. PatM mentioned that you still have bark to remove. Is the darker stuff in the pictures bark? If so once you get that off this spot might not look so bad. I can't see the whole limb so I don't really know how much you've removed but it doesn't look that bad to me.
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That is the inner bark. One thing to keep in mind is that HHB is often riddled with something like sawfly larva tracks which can leave grown over lines, squiggles and fossilized larvae that failed to exit. That's likely the cause of most tension failures in this wood.
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at this point ,, please do something so we dont go crazy trying to fix it,, :BB
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Haha, Ok!
So I’m going to back it. Before I do, how should I go about smoothing down the back? The first growth ring is very amorphous and has lots of ridges and troughs. I guess I need to cut through that down to where the smoother rings are, to get close to having just a few violated rings?
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Just reduce it to a smooth shallow arc that matches the general profile. With rawhide it won't make any difference if you go through all the rings as long as you follow the general grain profile.
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Ok, after lots of reading and planning, I’m about to sinew back it. But, I really wanted to add tip overlays, and have already violated the rings at the tips in sanding down a shallow angle for overlays, and already epoxied one overlay on.
Now I’m thinking I should have sinewed, then ground the tips and epoxied the overlays.
So, should I continue, and sinew wrap the ends up to and even a little past/over the overlays, or should I remove the one overlay, sinew back, then sand off the sinew so there’s a clean junction between the overlay and sinew?
Mostly worried about leaving violated rings between the overlays and sinew backing.
Do you always have to wrap the sinew at the ends, and does that wrap stay or is it just for curing purposes?
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A little violation at the non-working tip shouldn't be a problem. If you are just backing for safety sake rawhide, silk or linen will fix that. You'll have a longer wait time for sinew to cure than with the other backings I mentioned.
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No need to stress about sinew lifting at the tips, simply feather it out over the last 6 inches or so. Once dry you can sand the transition smooth. No need for any wraps where it feathers out either.
If it is your first sinew job don't be scared to reflex it well by reverse bracing it before applying sinew about 3 - 4 inches. Apply a layer of sinew let it gel then reflex a little further. Letting the glue gel then increasing reflex will ensure it doesn't lift. Without added reflex sinew will make your bow slower than it could be :)
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Well, thanks for the advice everyone. I finished it up a couple months ago, put about 300 arrows through it so far.
Took about 1-3/4" of set - I didn't put reflex in it before applying sinew, and I only put one layer on it - both of which I regret after seeing how much set it took.
I recently read that you should tiller from the tips in - something I'll be doing from now on. I think that was a factor in the set, as well as tillering in humid conditions, and the narrow profile.
Overall though, pretty happy the way it turned out. Pulls about 45# at 27". Tips are a bit stiff but I didn't want to compromise weight anymore.
Pretty much the first legit bow I've made, so pretty stoked!
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Nice - there's nothing like that first shooter!
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Looking good. HHB is a good candidate for heat treating if you are willing to try to fight that set. I don’t think 1.75” is that bad of set.
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congrats,,.enjoy
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Let the good times roll.
Bjrogg
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Congrats on the 1st bow! Looks good.
Mike
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I know this is an old post but if the set bothers ya you can soak off the sinew in a horse trough (like I did) and then heat treat the bow after waiting for a few days to allow it to lose some more moisture content and then re back the entire bow with the same sinew you soaked off. Did it to a maple and Osage bow and they are both with their new owners. However set also helps accuracy to a certain degree. Anyways I’m glad you got that bow shooting. It looks scare fast!