Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: paulc on May 20, 2019, 06:33:14 pm
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..before you brace a bow? And what do you do when the tips move about equal on the tiller board (8" give or take) but is clearly unbalanced when braced? i'll try to get a pic or two tomorrow.
Paul
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Have you floor tillered it?
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The most accurate way to know when to brace a bow is not to go by tip movement but read your tape on your tiller tree just as if it were braced, they read very close to the same braced or long string. For a bow that is 50#@28" I like to brace it when I am reading about 50#@23". Tip movement is meaningless without several other numbers attached to it.
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If you floor tiller your bow before you brace it you can feel if one limb is stronger than the other, they should feel and look the same. You want to get them ballanced out as soon as possible. If you are a little off when you brace it it is easy enough to correct if you left yourself enough weight on the bow to make corrections.
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A bit different for me. Floor tiller well. Long string just to check and see that the limbs are balanced with one another. When they are, get a string on it. If you had 6 inches of tip movement and both limbs are balanced, getting a string on it will let you work from a low brace and inch your way up evenly. The long string can fool you. This is not meant to disagree with Steve as I think more people follow his route. This is just a little different method that I think has some advantages over long string tillering.
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A bit different for me. Floor tiller well. Long string just to check and see that the limbs are balanced with one another. When they are, get a string on it. If you had 6 inches of tip movement and both limbs are balanced, getting a string on it will let you work from a low brace and inch your way up evenly. The long string can fool you. This is not meant to disagree with Steve as I think more people follow his route. This is just a little different method that I think has some advantages over long string tillering.
Bob, the only reason I suggest that is because some people don't know how hard they are pulling or pushing when they get 6" of tip movement. A lot of times they will come in too light. I only suggest that method because it lets them know pretty much exactly where they are at. I think more people follow your method actually I did for the vast majority of my years making bows. I just switched a few years back.
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The tips on a finished bow only move a few inches.
Anyway it is late here. Off to bed.
There are buildalongs on my site as to how I determine when the bow is ready for the short string.
http://traditionalarchery101.com
Jawge
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We came from the same place Steve, and then took 2 different roads. I did it your way for a long time and just kind of evolved into what I do now. No hard rules other than don’t pull past a problem in the tiller. This method just allows me to spot those problems very early on. Both methods work. The guy who taught me this craziness still bends them over his knee. Never uses a tiller tree nor tiller stick. Just eyeballs the bend.
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The most accurate way to know when to brace a bow is not to go by tip movement but read your tape on your tiller tree just as if it were braced, they read very close to the same braced or long string.
Steve, does this method assume that the longstring is hanging down so that it is pulled from what would be brace height in the finished bow?
For a bow that is 50#@28" I like to brace it when I am reading about 50#@23". Tip movement is meaningless without several other numbers attached to it.
I have used tip movement in my tillering of straight limbed bows and am curious what other numbers need to be attached what or designs make a simple tip deflection measurement meaningless for you?
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Willie, it is fairy accurate regardless of where the string is sitting, tight to the bow or hanging down 12". I prefer to use it hanging down a few inches. The weight of the bow is more a product of string angle than it is how far the limbs have moved. I actually do most of my tillering on my lap. I use the long string mostly just to find out how strong my bow is or to check the set as I advance. When I read target weight at 23" or 24" I know I am about 10 or 12# strong and it is time to brace it. I ignore tip movement because it means nothing unless I know how hard I am pulling and where my string is at when I am pulling that hard.
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I’m not using tip movement that far down the road. For me it’s just to let me know if I can get a string on it. The weight will be heavy and of little concern this early on. Once it is braced, tip movement IS meaningless as you mentioned. Proper tiller and draw weight become the focus. Because the string angle is right, for me it’s less likely that I come in under weight.
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For a bow that is 50#@28" I like to brace it when I am reading about 50#@23".
Steve, I think I follow your method now. the 23" in the example, is 23 inches down from wherever your longstring was hanging unpulled, not from somewhere where on the bow itself?
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Right Willie, it doesn't seem to make a lot of difference, maybe a pound or two but not nearly as much as you would expect. It is by far the most accurate method that I have been able to come up with to determine how strong an unbraced bow is. It reads just about the same as it would if it were braced regardless of where the loose string is hanging.
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I approach it much like slimbob does. I have dropped the whole longstring thing from my process. The main difference for me is that I really focus on using my fingers to feel the thickness taper. I do floor tiller but it is more to feel how strong the bow is and judge the relative strength of each limb. My main tool for determining whether the tiller is good enough to brace the bow is feeling the thickness taper. If there is a consistent taper without any obvious thick or thin spots then my first brace is usually pretty darn close to a good tiller.
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Weylin, the thread isn't about tilering long string or otherwise it is about how a new person knows when to brace his bow, not too strong and not too weak. A newer person or for that matter anytime I am working on an unfamiliar weight or design needs something objective we can go to. In this case the long string is only referencing checking current weight of the bow.
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Wow...y'all lost me :-) I will read all this a few times and reread my copy of Bent Stick and then check back in.
Paul
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Weylin, the thread isn't about tilering long string or otherwise it is about how a new person knows when to brace his bow, not too strong and not too weak. A newer person or for that matter anytime I am working on an unfamiliar weight or design needs something objective we can go to. In this case the long string is only referencing checking current weight of the bow.
To be fair, it seemed like he was asking about getting the limbs balanced before brace so I thought I'd share how I got to that point. Since I don't use a long string I thought it would help to explain the techniques I use to determine if it's ready to brace. I wasn't trying to knock anyone's method, just adding my own into the mix. Lately I've been putting the bow in my stringer and pulling up as if I'm stringing it, that gives me a sense of whether I can feasibly string it, strengthwise, and I can also take a peak at how it's bending. Functionally it's not much different than tillering with a long string, just a little less hassle.
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So, what I got out of all this...floor tiller(roughing in) until limbs bend a little bit-focus on even bending. Put it on tiller stick and focus on even bending and slowly reduce weight until you hit your target weight. Don't worry about bracing the bow until you are almost at target weight....? Keep brace just high enough to clear arrow fletching...?
What I don't get...how do you know you are approaching your target weight at target draw length without a tight string on the bow?
Thanks, Paul
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The question I would ask is why wait to get a tight string on it? This is assuming it is floor tillered evenly. What is the benefit in waiting?
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I found that if I floor tiller too far, my bows all come in at the draw weight I like to shoot at since it is the strength in my arm that gets the limbs moving in the first place, and, as I shoot at about 35lb, that's not much..... If I am tillering for a higher draw weight then as soon as the bow shows a bit of springiness I get it on the tiller tree to chase the draw weight I need and that avoids me coming in too light.
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I floor tiller until I'm sure both limbs are bending evenly then to a long string equaling tiller to about 8" of "tip movement"(for me). Then I'm ready for low brace. At this point I study the bend and check weight. If everything is even I head for full draw at desired draw weight. If there are problems, which there usually is, now is the time to make corrections while you still have meat to remove. Once braced I check string alignment. If that needs work I set up a caul and add reflex while correcting lateral bends and temper the belly.
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So, what I got out of all this...floor tiller(roughing in) until limbs bend a little bit-focus on even bending. Put it on tiller stick and focus on even bending and slowly reduce weight until you hit your target weight. Don't worry about bracing the bow until you are almost at target weight....? Keep brace just high enough to clear arrow fletching...?
What I don't get...how do you know you are approaching your target weight at target draw length without a tight string on the bow?
Thanks, Paul
I think you're misunderstanding something important. Whether you use a long string or not you still want to get to a short string fairly early in the tillering process. All the methods that people were describing above are ways to determine even bending and getting a feel for the strength of the bow. You need to have the bow strung on a short string to be able to tiller the bow out to full draw. If you wait too long to string the bow on a short string you will have no real accurate way to know what the draw weight is at any given draw length. The long string can't tell you that, it can only give you an approximation of how evenly the limbs are bending in the early tillering process. If you stay on the long string too long when you eventually string the bow on a short string you way already be under weight and you may find that the tiller looks different on the short string and need to make further adjustments which would weaken the bow even further. In short, your goal is to get the limbs balanced and the bend evenly distributed as early as possible so that you can safely string the bow with a short string when the strength of the bow allows. From there you will continue to tiller on the short string until you reach full draw at your intended draw weight.
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Waylon I think the whole point is that you can use a long string to know what your current draw weight is it reads the same as if it were braced almost it's not even that critical how long the long string is it could be hanging down to 8 or 12 in and it'll still read the same at 24 in we're very close anyway
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One of the first things I became aware of when I started teaching bow building was how many of our terms I subjective. To a new bow Builder terms like early on as soon as possible get the get the tips moving 8 in Etc those terms mean nothing to a person that has no experience using the long string it removes all the subjective terms because you could know exactly where you were at all the time it will give you a fairly accurate draw weight anytime you want one. I usually floor tiller about to about 80 or 90 pounds roughly and I start right off from the very beginning pulling up to a full Target weight UPS a 50 pounds. As long as those limbs are too strong I can't hurt those lives even if they're out of balance by pulling them at 50 lb. All I have to do is increase the inches until I get you about 23 in 22 in whatever and then I brace it. A newcomer with no experience at all can do this.
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What I don't get...how do you know you are approaching your target weight at target draw length without a tight string on the bow?
Steve, I was addressing this part of his question. He seemed to have misunderstood about when to switch to a short string, thinking that he should tiller out to his target draw length on a long string which is something that I don't think anyone is suggesting.
I think your method is fine, I'm not trying to argue against it. I did early tillering the same way for years with good results.
Waylon I think the whole point is that you can use a long string to know what your current draw weight is it reads the same as if it were braced almost it's not even that critical how long the long string is it could be hanging down to 8 or 12 in and it'll still read the same at 24 in we're very close anyway
Are you saying that if you have a long string that hangs down 12" and you pull the string down to, lets say 50#@20" and then you brace that bow with a short string and pull it to 50# it will draw down to 20"? Maybe I'm misunderstanding you but that doesn't seem right.
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String angle is the determinate as to draw weight. Yes, resistance of the wood bending plays a role, but from 40 lbs to 50 lbs, it’s not much different. If you miss weight, that is where it will happen. You shot for 50, it came in at 40. For whatever reason. The string angle part of the equation can be eliminated from that equation if braced earlier. One less issue to cause a problem. So the question remains, why not get it braced and simplify the process?
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What I don't get...how do you know you are approaching your target weight at target draw length without a tight string on the bow?
Steve, I was addressing this part of his question. He seemed to have misunderstood about when to switch to a short string, thinking that he should tiller out to his target draw length on a long string which is something that I don't think anyone is suggesting.
I think your method is fine, I'm not trying to argue against it. I did early tillering the same way for years with good results.
Waylon I think the whole point is that you can use a long string to know what your current draw weight is it reads the same as if it were braced almost it's not even that critical how long the long string is it could be hanging down to 8 or 12 in and it'll still read the same at 24 in we're very close anyway
Are you saying that if you have a long string that hangs down 12" and you pull the string down to, lets say 50#@20" and then you brace that bow with a short string and pull it to 50# it will draw down to 20"? Maybe I'm misunderstanding you but that doesn't seem right.
yes that's what I'm saying intuitively it doesn't make sense but I've been doing it for several years now it's very easy and very accurate this pain could be anywhere from 2 in to 10 or 12 in and it doesn't make much difference you're still reads very close to what it would read if it were braced
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What I don't get...how do you know you are approaching your target weight at target draw length without a tight string on the bow?
Steve, I was addressing this part of his question. He seemed to have misunderstood about when to switch to a short string, thinking that he should tiller out to his target draw length on a long string which is something that I don't think anyone is suggesting.
I think your method is fine, I'm not trying to argue against it. I did early tillering the same way for years with good results.
Waylon I think the whole point is that you can use a long string to know what your current draw weight is it reads the same as if it were braced almost it's not even that critical how long the long string is it could be hanging down to 8 or 12 in and it'll still read the same at 24 in we're very close anyway
Are you saying that if you have a long string that hangs down 12" and you pull the string down to, lets say 50#@20" and then you brace that bow with a short string and pull it to 50# it will draw down to 20"? Maybe I'm misunderstanding you but that doesn't seem right.
yes that's what I'm saying intuitively it doesn't make sense but I've been doing it for several years now it's very easy and very accurate this pain could be anywhere from 2 in to 10 or 12 in and it doesn't make much difference you're still reads very close to what it would read if it were braced
Huh... wouldn't have guessed that. I will have to try that out for myself.
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Not to question Weylons experience but can anyone else explain/corroborate what he has seen in his bow making? It really makes no logical sense that I can see, of course i dont know what I'm doing.
If it works I guess it works. Paul
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Suffice to say you got 2 options. Work from the long string (which works) or work with a proper length string. Try both methods and make your own judgement.
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I my bow making has way down but I still make at least 50 or 60 archery bows a year I do it on every single one of them it doesn't matter if it's a reflex deflex a recurve a straight bow that works on all of them the same
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Steve,
you seem to prefer a tillering method where you hold off bracing longer than most. Perhaps you could comment as to what the advantage may be for you?
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If you have a modern bow,it maybe helpful to flex it on the floor to give an idea of the proper resistance for a given weight.placing a towel down first may be a good idea also .
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Not to question Weylons experience but can anyone else explain/corroborate what he has seen in his bow making?
My process is very similar to what Weylin described, I've never measured or kept track of tip movement. I spend a lot of time using my fingers to feel the thickness going down the limbs and scraping wood to get it as even as possible. My fingers are much better than my eyes at identifying small variations. As I'm going I'll check the relative weight of the limbs either putting weight against a limb on the floor (usually the grass) or pulling the limbs with the handle braced across my knee to make sure they are even. When I'm happy with where I'm at there, I can go ahead and brace the bow, and I'll usually only have some minor scraping to get the limbs even at brace and I'll use my fingers to look for weak/stiff areas. I started out using the long string a lot when I was tillering, this process just kind of developed over time and seems to work for me. Your results may vary.
I don't think I would recommend doing what I do as a way to start out, and I can't imagine being able to teach someone how to do it through forum posts.
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Learning to eyeball your floor tiller may take some time,but it's a skill worth learning .touch,feel and visual aids will go a long way!trust your instincts.
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Steve,
you seem to prefer a tillering method where you hold off bracing longer than most. Perhaps you could comment as to what the advantage may be for you?
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Steve,
you seem to prefer a tillering method where you hold off bracing longer than most. Perhaps you could comment as to what the advantage may be for you?
the simple answer is I don't think my method does hold off longer than most I think I just know exactly where I'm at would I String it I like to string it about 12 lb heavy. Using this method of knowing where you're at which we should always know anyway I can build any weight bow I want you're not have any concern about coming and underweight the first time
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I my bow making has way down but I still make at least 50 or 60 archery bows a year I do it on every single one of them it doesn't matter if it's a reflex deflex a recurve a straight bow that works on all of them the same
"50 or 60 archery bows a year" what ya do with all those bows.
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Not to question Weylons experience but can anyone else explain/corroborate what he has seen in his bow making? It really makes no logical sense that I can see, of course i dont know what I'm doing.
If it works I guess it works. Paul
I don't mind being questioned at all, I question myself all the time. ;D It can be hard as a beginner having a bunch of different ideas thrown at you all at once. That's one of the cool things about this craft, there's more than one way to skin a cat. All of these variations that people are describing are just different ways to get the bow braced with a good tiller and still be above final draw weight so you have some wiggle room to perfect your tiller. It's hard to convey all the detail in a forum post. If you're interested in learning more about how I do it I have some in depth videos on my you tube channel. I can't post links here but you can search for Swiftwood Bows on youtube and you will find it. I'm also happy to try and explain it here. What part wasn't making sense to you?
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Hey All, so I have read through again for about the 4th or 5th time...and I think I actually am doing things like both Slimbob and Weylin who I think are working in a fairly similar fashion. I think now it is Badger's comments about measuring draw weight/length with the long string that threw me. I overlooked his point about starting the measurement for draw length/weight from where the string hangs-not the back or belly of the bow... It never occurred to me that I might be able to take a measurement from anywhere but the bow. And it never occurred to me (on the single bow I have made :-) to worry about draw weight until late in the game. I was just focused on getting an even bend and not breaking the bow. I started checking draw weight fairly late in the process. Which is why I was asking about tip movement cause I couldn't of anything else I could measure to know if it was safe to brace or not...
Thanks so much y'all. Super helpful to me! I hope to have time this weekend to work on the current hickory stave that is 75% done. I'll be sure to post pics and more questions.
Peace, Paul C
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I never said start the measurement from where the string hangs I said read the measurement just as if it were brace no different
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It is so easy I think it is confusing people you're not measuring drawer late sooner than usual or later than usual or gracing the boat sooner or later than usual you just have more accurate control over when you brace the bow all you have to remember is that the boys will read just about the same brace tour unbraced a short short string or a long short screen it doesn't make much difference if you break him and all that you read them just where you want to read them it's the same you don't allow for anything you don't allow for how long the string is you just read the weight at 24 or 23 or 28 what is braced you're launching it doesn't make a lot of difference if you want to brace the bowl when your target weight at 20 in embrace it and 20 in
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I think your autocorrect got the better of you on that last post, Steve. ;D
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I laughed out loud....Not at the tillering advice, obviously...
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If either of you want to translate what he said... :-)
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I don't have my glasses and I can't read what I'm writing
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That explains why you “grace the boat” as part of your process. 🙃
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I never said start the measurement from where the string hangs I said read the measurement just as if it were brace no different
now I am confused
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Hey All, so I have read through again for about the 4th or 5th time...and I think I actually am doing things like both Slimbob and Weylin who I think are working in a fairly similar fashion. I think now it is Badger's comments about measuring draw weight/length with the long string that threw me. I overlooked his point about starting the measurement for draw length/weight from where the string hangs-not the back or belly of the bow... It never occurred to me that I might be able to take a measurement from anywhere but the bow. And it never occurred to me (on the single bow I have made :-) to worry about draw weight until late in the game. I was just focused on getting an even bend and not breaking the bow. I started checking draw weight fairly late in the process. Which is why I was asking about tip movement cause I couldn't of anything else I could measure to know if it was safe to brace or not...
Thanks so much y'all. Super helpful to me! I hope to have time this weekend to work on the current hickory stave that is 75% done. I'll be sure to post pics and more questions.
Peace, Paul C
Weylin's bows are some of the most impressive you will see anywhere. I am lucky to be mentioned in the same sentence with him. I'm simply a journeyman who enjoys the process, has been at it a long time and keeps working at improving on things as I go. Yes our approach is similar to one another. From what you describe above, your approach to tillering is also similar. I don't put mine on the scale till it's farther down the road either. I don't need to. It's heavy when it is first braced, so I am no where near wondering about it. Once it is braced and well balanced, I check it on the scale. Depending on how far I have pulled it on the tiller stick, I still won't pull it to full weight. I just extrapolate from the numbers where it will be at full draw. Like you I am concerned with an even bend inch by inch. I will say again that Steve's way is perfectly acceptable in tillering one to fair-the-well. As you do enough of these, it seems to me most folks will find what works for them for a while, and then little by little add and subtract various things overtime.
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I never said start the measurement from where the string hangs I said read the measurement just as if it were brace no different
now I am confused
Willie I think it might be confusing you because it is too simple I make no distinction between a brace bow and a bow with a long string because they will read about the same whether they're Brasher on the long string the original question was how much tip movement should he have when he braces the bow. My answer was ignore Kip movement and go by how strong the bow is I like a bow about 10 or 15 pounds heavier than Target weight when I brace it. That means did I will pull it down to about 2 2 to 24 in at Target weight to a person with no experience or a person dealing with a bow weight that is unfamiliar it gives him a solid number he can work with an easy way to monitor that I have a lot of experience and I still use that method
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It is so easy I think it is confusing people you're not measuring drawer late sooner than usual or later than usual or gracing the boat sooner or later than usual you just have more accurate control over when you brace the bow all you have to remember is that the boys will read just about the same brace tour unbraced a short short string or a long short screen it doesn't make much difference if you break him and all that you read them just where you want to read them it's the same you don't allow for anything you don't allow for how long the string is you just read the weight at 24 or 23 or 28 what is braced you're launching it doesn't make a lot of difference if you want to brace the bowl when your target weight at 20 in embrace it and 20 in
Here's what I think Steve was trying to say. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
"It is so easy I think it is confusing people. You're not measuring draw weight sooner than usual or later than usual, or bracing the bow sooner or later than usual. You just have more accurate control over when you brace the bow. All you have to remember is that the bow will read just about the same braced or unbraced, a short short string or a long short string. (I couldn't figure out this next sentence) It doesn't make much difference if you break him and all that you read them just where you want to read them. It's the same. You don't allow for anything. You don't allow for how long the string is, you just read the weight at 24 or 23 or 28 with it braced or long string. It doesn't make a lot of difference. If you want to brace the bow when your target weight at 20 in then brace it and 20 in"
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All this made my day....so damn funny. Paul
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I make no distinction between a brace bow and a bow with a long string because they will read about the same whether they're Brasher on the long string the original question was how much tip movement should he have when he braces the bow. My answer was ignore Kip movement and go by how strong the bow is I like a bow about 10 or 15 pounds heavier than Target weight when I brace it. That means did I will pull it down to about 2 2 to 24 in at Target weight to a person with no experience or a person dealing with a bow weight that is unfamiliar it gives him a solid number he can work with an easy way to monitor that I have a lot of experience and I still use that method
so I have to admit that I have had a hard time with this effect that badger has described on a few different occasions, so........
I put a bow on the tiller tree with a longstring and made some pulls.
all measurements were from the arrow nock point on the string to the back of the bow handle. it is a simple elb type working handle bow, and the last I checked, the bow draws 45# @27" with a 6" brace when normally strung
I started out with a longstring at 19" and pulled it 9 more inches until the bow drew 28", the tips needless to say did not move a whole lot but it took 35# to make 28". shortening the longstring gave results as follows...
17" droop longstring = 37#
15' = 39#
13" = 41#
11" = 43#
9" = 44#
6" = 45#
3"= 46#
the results were a bit rough as when the longstring got real short, as what one would call tight to the bow, or 0", it of course got a bit droopy after the pull. (3') I should also add that I started all pulls by adding 2# to my knockpoint before making the measurement for droop.
Thanks for your patience with all this, Steve. it's useful to know that the longstring ,at any reasonable droop, is such a close estimator.