Primitive Archer

Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: Nasr on August 18, 2019, 09:23:49 am

Title: Tillering mistake pulled it further then expected
Post by: Nasr on August 18, 2019, 09:23:49 am
I am building a white oak flat bow and it’s been a while since I made a bow and as I was marking the draw length on my tillering tree I messed up. Now I have a white oak bow 64” ntn pulling 48 at 30”. I didn’t even realize what I had done until after I left the shop. During the whole tillering process I was telling myself that 28 seems to be longer then I remember lol. Oh well at least now I know how to make a bow pull more then is possible.just fudge the numbers on the tillering tree.
Title: Re: Tillering mistake pulled it further then expected
Post by: Pat B on August 18, 2019, 09:38:04 am
Concentration and patience are your two best bow building tools.
 If you haven't caused too much belly damage(set) you might be able to get the weight up a bit with belly tempering with reflex added and flipping the tips. White oak lends itself well to belly tempering. You might be able to get another 5# or 6#, maybe more.
Title: Re: Tillering mistake pulled it further then expected
Post by: sleek on August 18, 2019, 09:46:08 am
A perfect candidate for piking. The stress load on the bow will not change one bit as you cut an inch off each tip at a time until the draw weight is what you want it to be at 28. This is how I would do it without a question. Unless it has taken much over an inch of set. Then I would heat treat as mentioned, then pike until the draw weight at 28 is what you are looking for.
Title: Re: Tillering mistake pulled it further then expected
Post by: Nasr on August 18, 2019, 10:21:51 am
i was thinking about heat treating and re flexing the tips but piking seems easier. Its taken about an inch and a half of set.
Title: Re: Tillering mistake pulled it further then expected
Post by: SLIMBOB on August 18, 2019, 10:23:33 am
Pat nailed it.  Concentration and Fresh Perspective are your best bow building friends. If they have left the shop, I follow them out the door.  If I push thru without them, Jacked Up almost always shows up.
Title: Re: Tillering mistake pulled it further then expected
Post by: sleek on August 18, 2019, 11:00:36 am
i was thinking about heat treating and re flexing the tips but piking seems easier. Its taken about an inch and a half of set.

Heat treat it first, then see what you got. Afterwards, start piking until you see the set start to increase, and stop there. It's better to have a good shooting low weight bow than a dogfish high weight, unless you need the weight for legal hunting regulations. With a  it of good judgment and a pinch of luck, you will hit 40#@28 with an inch of set.
Title: Re: Tillering mistake pulled it further then expected
Post by: bradsmith2010 on August 18, 2019, 11:49:27 am
Great advice from above,..
Title: Re: Tillering mistake pulled it further then expected
Post by: Nasr on August 18, 2019, 11:56:11 am
i was thinking about heat treating and re flexing the tips but piking seems easier. Its taken about an inch and a half of set.

Heat treat it first, then see what you got. Afterwards, start piking until you see the set start to increase, and stop there. It's better to have a good shooting low weight bow than a dogfish high weight, unless you need the weight for legal hunting regulations. With a  it of good judgment and a pinch of luck, you will hit 40#@28 with an inch of set.

sounds good I will do that. I am ok with 40 pounds i would like 50 plus but that's not gonna happen with this one. I have never been hunting I would love to though its my dream to do that one day I just have 0 knowledge on hunting.
Title: Re: Tillering mistake pulled it further then expected
Post by: bownarra on August 18, 2019, 12:05:47 pm
Piking will increase string angle which leads to lower energy storage. Chasing your tail a bit. Weight won't increase much without excessive length reduction on what is already fairly short.
Heat treat the belly to a good deep brown. Slowly. Recurving will shorten working limb length increasing weight a little and has the benefit of lowering string angle. Making the bow stack less. However I would keep the recurves as short and sharp as possible. Cutting a kerf in the tip along the neutral plane will allow you to bend a sharp recurve. You fill the kerf with a thin strip of wood (don't glue yet!) and then do the steaming. Once dry slip out the thin piece and then glue it in place.
A word of warning though these operations can work if carried out 'just so' but you may well end up chasing your tail trying to make the bow something it wasn't. It's fun trying though :)
Title: Re: Tillering mistake pulled it further then expected
Post by: Jim Davis on August 18, 2019, 12:14:44 pm
Just draw and shoot at 28 inches. You'll  have 44# or so in a bow that  will never break.
Title: Re: Tillering mistake pulled it further then expected
Post by: bradsmith2010 on August 18, 2019, 01:21:35 pm
  DC just had a nice thread,, where recurving did increase performance on a straight tip bow,,Piking can be very effective,, depending on the bow,,if the bow is a little heavy in mass,,,piking can increase weight and cast ,, sometimes not as stated,, its a judgment call,, your experience level will dictate,, keep notes and if it does not work,, try not to make the same mistake again,, (S) shooting through a chrono before and after, will reveal if you chased your tail,,, (-S
   I like the idea of shooting it as is,,,,it will kill a deer,,,
Title: Re: Tillering mistake pulled it further then expected
Post by: sleek on August 18, 2019, 01:41:22 pm
Just draw and shoot at 28 inches. You'll  have 44# or so in a bow that  will never break.

Nothin wrong with thos advice either. The advice I gave was just for you to do and learn what CAN be done, not what NEEDS to be done. chose what you will, but whatever you do decide,  MAKE ANOTHER ONE!
Title: Re: Tillering mistake pulled it further then expected
Post by: kbear on August 18, 2019, 01:43:41 pm
Just draw and shoot at 28 inches. You'll  have 44# or so in a bow that  will never break.

Ahhhhh......... The KISS principle........ Keep It Simple Soyoudon'truinitandhavetothrowitinthebin.

I like your thinking Jim.
Title: Re: Tillering mistake pulled it further then expected
Post by: sleek on August 18, 2019, 01:50:55 pm
Piking will increase string angle which leads to lower energy storage. Chasing your tail a bit. Weight won't increase much without excessive length reduction on what is already fairly short.

I'd have a hard time calling 64 inches fairly short. Maybe if it's for a 32 inch draw length, but not for a 28. I'd wager he can cut off an inch of each limb, and get settled right in at 62 inches pulling about 45@28 and have no more set than he already does, less if he gets lucky with a good heat treat. Energy storage differences isn't something he is going to notice in any negative way, considering he will actually pick up speed with the higher draw weight at 28, and lower tip mass having lost mass during piking.
Title: Re: Tillering mistake pulled it further then expected
Post by: Deerhunter21 on August 18, 2019, 05:23:14 pm
Got a great laugh from kbears commemt! still laughing.  (lol)
Title: Re: Tillering mistake pulled it further then expected
Post by: George Tsoukalas on August 19, 2019, 10:44:06 am
How much set did you get? Jawge
Title: Re: Tillering mistake pulled it further then expected
Post by: paulc on August 19, 2019, 10:53:57 am
Pat nailed it.  Concentration and Fresh Perspective are your best bow building friends. If they have left the shop, I follow them out the door.  If I push thru without them, Jacked Up almost always shows up.

Can I use this if i give you credit?....I seem to like building jacked up stuff just to see how screwy i can make something and still have it function....Paul
Title: Re: Tillering mistake pulled it further then expected
Post by: SLIMBOB on August 19, 2019, 01:06:38 pm
Sure. I’m sure I borrowed it from someone.
Title: Re: Tillering mistake pulled it further then expected
Post by: Deerhunter21 on August 19, 2019, 01:18:13 pm
Pat nailed it.  Concentration and Fresh Perspective are your best bow building friends. If they have left the shop, I follow them out the door.  If I push thru without them, Jacked Up almost always shows up.

I dont leave when i should when flintknapping. lost all of my good flakes to that.
Title: Re: Tillering mistake pulled it further then expected
Post by: Nasr on August 19, 2019, 01:30:55 pm
i got an inch and a half of set i heat treated it gonna give it a couple days before pulling it
Title: Re: Tillering mistake pulled it further then expected
Post by: Nasr on August 20, 2019, 01:21:49 pm
so i just finished retillering the bow and now its pulling 46#@28 but i havent piked it or flipped the tips. but i reduced string follow to 1 inch from 1.5 so that good i guess. Gonna finish it up and seal it if i don't pike the bow first and then post pics. 
Title: Re: Tillering mistake pulled it further then expected
Post by: sleek on August 20, 2019, 02:41:16 pm
so i just finished retillering the bow and now its pulling 46#@28 but i havent piked it or flipped the tips. but i reduced string follow to 1 inch from 1.5 so that good i guess. Gonna finish it up and seal it if i don't pike the bow first and then post pics.

Heck, I'd leave it alone and shoot it as it is. But, if you want to learn about piking and tip flipping,  go for that also. If you flip the tips, piking becomes unneeded often times.
Title: Re: Tillering mistake pulled it further then expected
Post by: George Tsoukalas on August 20, 2019, 04:06:49 pm
1.5" would have been just fine. Jawge