Primitive Archer

Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: Marc St Louis on September 01, 2019, 07:35:14 am

Title: Heat-treating in the old way?
Post by: Marc St Louis on September 01, 2019, 07:35:14 am
Reading what Shannon said about his ancestors heat-treating their bows just doesn't sit quite right with me.  I thought a bit about it and honestly the idea that natives would spend that much time "improving" a bow when a properly made untreated bow will easily get the job done especially when their hunting skill were such that they could get quite close to the prey just doesn't make sense to me. 

Like many people, I had read about natives liking fire killed wood for making bows before I started my initial experiments on heat-treating in early 2000 but you know, a fire killed tree will not have heat-treated wood, except maybe on the back, since the belly of the bow would have been well protected from the fire.  The only bit of information that suggested to me that dry heat was actually used on bows to set them or induce a different shape was an account about the English using dry heat to rejuvenate Yew bows, still not a positive historical account since they may not have actually heat-treated the wood.  I had heard/read about early people exposing a bow to fire during it's construction but  got the impression, at the time, that it was only to speed dry the wood.  I talked to an old Algonquin, dead now, a number of years ago who had made bows when he was younger, much of his work is in a local museum, and he more or less confirmed that notion.  In addition, there is never a free meal.  A heat-treated bow is under more stress and therefore more likely to be subject to failure especially if the wood being used is not properly selected and/or exposed to certain conditions.  I've had failures, explosive, with a number of different species after being tempered including Osage, not too much fun after spending a fair bit of time working on the bow.  I've also had failures with bows that I was using for hunting that were subjected to repeated cold, as in freezing, for several days, intense cold will dry out wood.  To think that natives, who had only stone tools to make their bows, would take that risk after the intensive work required to make a bow with those stone tools also does not make sense to me.  I do believe they had better things to do.

To clarify one thing.  When I started making heat-treated bows it was not to revive a supposed lost art but because I like fast bows :BB

If anyone has better ideas then please include them here.
Title: Re: Heat-treating in the old way?
Post by: sleek on September 01, 2019, 08:28:25 am
 I do wonder, if its is a possibility that the use of fire was location specific.  Marc, being in Canada as you are, the need for heat on a bow is probably less than the need for it in the humid areas of the east coast about from Virginia and south to Florida. Everywhere else as you say, you get more likely to break a bow than benefit from it. I'd say its probably related more to specific woods as well than related to all... say Hickory and not elm so much. That's again assuming it done at all.

That being said  I have cooked a fresh cut stave, reduced to floor tiller, over a fire while camping. The next day that bow ( persimmon) was a very dried out fast shooter. It wasn't heated to the point of heat treat, just over the heat to the point you held you hand over the fire and it wouldn't burn but hurt real bad after a few seconds.

My dad told me stories of Indians using fire to make bows stronger. That was in the 90s, before the quick spread of information. One must wonder where everyone got the idea that natives did this. Honestly, I dont see natives stock pilling bow wood like we do. Chances are good, they cut a stave, fire cured it, then made the bow. We have never found a stockpile of roughed out bows set aside to cure much less a stave stash. Then of course, if the actually did store staves in ponds to keep bugs off, fire would probably be used to dry out the bow blank over a period of days....

Running the scenarios through my mind from all possible directions, it keeps going to the same spot, fire cured, not fire hardened for the sake of less work in cutting and storing staves, with the possibility of select locations heat treating select woods for humidity protection. But then again... tallow goes a long ways to prevent that problem as well.
Title: Re: Heat-treating in the old way?
Post by: bassman on September 01, 2019, 08:39:18 am
Some tribes had a working bow ,and always one in the works. Their labor free way of heat treat was to hang the bow over the fire, and let the heat, and smoke take care of it.Makes sense to me.
Title: Re: Heat-treating in the old way?
Post by: bassman on September 01, 2019, 08:59:29 am
Some tribes carried 2 bows with them. That makes sense also, since their lives depended on those weapons for food ,and war. Mark, Sleek, if you 2 were natives back  then the way you both have passion for bow making you would have had staves hanging above the fire stuffed under the Buffalo hides, and any were else you could put them.
Title: Re: Heat-treating in the old way?
Post by: DC on September 01, 2019, 09:12:56 am
I think that would depend on their lifestyle. If they were nomads like the plains people I don't think they would want a lot of extra "stuff". People that built permanent settlements would quite likely store a few staves, especially if they had a dedicated bowyer.
Title: Re: Heat-treating in the old way?
Post by: PatM on September 01, 2019, 09:32:47 am
Perhaps but a roughed out plains style bow stave is not much bulkier than a couple of arrow shafts.
Title: Re: Heat-treating in the old way?
Post by: bassman on September 01, 2019, 09:38:24 am
Half dozen 40 inch staves even  if they were plains natives  would have been much less  weight than one of the their tipi poles. Can't help but to think some carried an extra stave or 2 with them. They could have carried them in their quiver or strapped them on their horse. Sorry for getting off subject. They new fire hardening, and used it.
Title: Re: Heat-treating in the old way?
Post by: bjrogg on September 01, 2019, 09:39:04 am
Some tribes carried 2 bows with them. That makes sense also, since their lives depended on those weapons for food ,and war. Mark, Sleek, if you 2 were natives back  then the way you both have passion for bow making you would have had staves hanging above the fire stuffed under the Buffalo hides, and any were else you could put them.

I know the second I broke my first selfbow, I was heartbroken. I knew right Then and there that as soon as possible I was never going to be without a bow again. Almost immediately I started making two more. Almost like my life depended on it. Theirs did.
Bjrogg
Title: Re: Heat-treating in the old way?
Post by: bjrogg on September 01, 2019, 10:02:28 am
I think that would depend on their lifestyle. If they were nomads like the plains people I don't think they would want a lot of extra "stuff". People that built permanent settlements would quite likely store a few staves, especially if they had a dedicated bowyer.

I'm thinking the same DC.

I'm also thinking that they spent a lot of their time around a fire and just kinda using it's magic to influence on many  things. I'm thinking they constantly were working on tools, hides, weapons and foodstuffs all around their fires. They didn't waste their time watching TV. I think their fires were their wookshops and their schools. Their social center and their place for scientific experimentation. Their spiritual connection. It's pretty natural to experiment with fire. We just naturally want to put things in it. From wood to meat and even stones. I'm sure they would have constantly been drying their possessions around and over the fire. I'm also thinking it would have been used at least for drying their slow water soaked bows. Quite possibly and probably even by accident one to close or left on to long was heat treated. If they felt it was enough of an improvement they may have tried to duplicate it. They may also have thought the spirit and power of the fire was even introduced into their bows.

Bjrogg

Just kinda thinking out loud
Title: Re: Heat-treating in the old way?
Post by: DC on September 01, 2019, 10:28:50 am
It's hard to imagine isn't it. No TV, no books, not a single luxury ;). You'd think they were bored spitless but I guess they always had little chores to do. Fix this, improve that. Make up stories.
Title: Re: Heat-treating in the old way?
Post by: bjrogg on September 01, 2019, 10:34:47 am
It's kinda funny DC. One thing us kids learned really young was to never tell our dad we were boarded. He could always find something for us to do.
Bjrogg
Title: Re: Heat-treating in the old way?
Post by: sleek on September 01, 2019, 10:40:48 am
It's kinda funny DC. One thing us kids learned really young was to never tell our dad we were boarded. He could always find something for us to do.
Bjrogg

It usually involved hard labor...
Title: Re: Heat-treating in the old way?
Post by: DC on September 01, 2019, 10:44:30 am
I've noticed from years of camping that you have to go through a period of boredom before you can really relax.
Title: Re: Heat-treating in the old way?
Post by: bjrogg on September 01, 2019, 10:56:28 am
It's kinda funny DC. One thing us kids learned really young was to never tell our dad we were boarded. He could always find something for us to do.
Bjrogg

It usually involved hard labor...

It ALWAYS  involved hard labor.

Well stated DC. Nothing more relaxing for this old fart than boardum
Bjrogg
Title: Re: Heat-treating in the old way?
Post by: Marc St Louis on September 01, 2019, 11:06:57 am
Some tribes had a working bow ,and always one in the works. Their labor free way of heat treat was to hang the bow over the fire, and let the heat, and smoke take care of it.Makes sense to me.

There is a big difference between heat-curing and heat-tempering, a big difference in the amount of heat needed. The accounts I read is that they would hang a stave, or half finished bow, in their shelter, tipi, longhouse, whatever, but not directly over the fire
Title: Re: Heat-treating in the old way?
Post by: Pat B on September 01, 2019, 11:11:27 am
As modern man it's hard to imagine how primitive man dealt with their day to day situations and we can only imagine. Also, working with stone tools you almost have to be working with green wood. The way I see it is the bow was shaped  green and dries as tillering progressed. Staves were possible greased and placed near the smoke hole or at least the ceiling in their shelters while not being worked on. The combo of grease, creasote from the smoke and the heat cured and dried the wood as it was being built. Also, using stone tools would almost assuredly meant saplings were the wood used and not full sized trees unless parts of a lightning struct tree were used. But these situations were only heat curing methods and not tempering. I don't doubt that some early archers would have tempered their bows but I don't think I've ever seen evidence of it.
Title: Re: Heat-treating in the old way?
Post by: bassman on September 01, 2019, 12:15:29 pm
We were not their ,so we will never know for sure.I would think that over time they may have went from heat curing to heat tempering even if by accident.That being said I have native books that show pics. of plains  bows,  with the natives holding them. One limb sticks out of the top of the bow sock, and shows quite a bit of set in many of the  examples I have seen.Maybe they tempered the wood ,and bent it around a tree to get the shape back, and the bow,s power back.
Title: Re: Heat-treating in the old way?
Post by: JW_Halverson on September 01, 2019, 01:31:40 pm
I have heard numerous sources that stone tools were knapped by dripping boiling water from an eagle feather to pop off flakes. Utter B.S.

Just like a lot of supposedly handed down information about bow building, I think a whole heck of a lot of it is pure crap from people that have never made a bow.  And when someone comes up with yet another claim that their technique is exactly the way it was done way back when, I go to the cupboard for the big salt canister. Until I see an unbroken chain of evidence connecting the past with current times, I have to be skeptical.

Same goes for "revolutionary" breakthroughs making everything else obsolete.  In those cases I go to the feed store to buy a stack of salt blocks.

Combine the two together and I am stepping back, simply because I cannot afford to swing the mortgage payments on a former Soviet salt mine in Siberia.

If these claims by Shannon are as good as the hyperbole describes, I would like to see 5 similar whitewood bows left in the rain for 48 hours and then all shoot fairly close to 200 fps with 10 gpp arrows.
Title: Re: Heat-treating in the old way?
Post by: sleek on September 01, 2019, 01:39:15 pm
I have heard numerous sources that stone tools were knapped by dripping boiling water from an eagle feather to pop off flakes. Utter B.S.

Just like a lot of supposedly handed down information about bow building, I think a whole heck of a lot of it is pure crap from people that have never made a bow.  And when someone comes up with yet another claim that their technique is exactly the way it was done way back when, I go to the cupboard for the big salt canister. Until I see an unbroken chain of evidence connecting the past with current times, I have to be skeptical.

Same goes for "revolutionary" breakthroughs making everything else obsolete.  In those cases I go to the feed store to buy a stack of salt blocks.

Combine the two together and I am stepping back, simply because I cannot afford to swing the mortgage payments on a former Soviet salt mine in Siberia.

If these claims by Shannon are as good as the hyperbole describes, I would like to see 5 similar whitewood bows left in the rain for 48 hours and then all shoot fairly close to 200 fps with 10 gpp arrows.

I honestly am considering buying a few bows from him just to try out. I mean, honestly, they do look nice... and sweet gum had my interest just because. I'd also get an elm bow from them as it's my favorite bow wood, and of course  an osage bow.
Title: Re: Heat-treating in the old way?
Post by: DC on September 01, 2019, 01:43:54 pm
I think advertising would advance a lot if they would quit using words like, "amazing" "fantastic" etc. I'm with you JW. I hear those words and I'm gone. I've gotten stung a few times at exhibitions and fairs by fast talking salesmen. It only took a half dozen times ;D ;D and I caught on. Still haven't figured out how that guy can weld a beer can but I still have the amazing welding rod.
Title: Re: Heat-treating in the old way?
Post by: sleek on September 01, 2019, 01:47:57 pm
I think advertising would advance a lot if they would quit using words like, "amazing" "fantastic" etc. I'm with you JW. I hear those words and I'm gone. I've gotten stung a few times at exhibitions and fairs by fast talking salesmen. It only took a half dozen times ;D ;D and I caught on. Still haven't figured out how that guy can weld a beer can but I still have the amazing welding rod.

That beer can welder did look amazing.... Dont blame you for getting that one.
Title: Re: Heat-treating in the old way?
Post by: Marc St Louis on September 01, 2019, 02:14:27 pm
So far as I know all the museum pieces have noticeable set in the limbs and no visible evidence of heat-treating.  If it was practiced by even some natives then you would think it would be common practice to heat-treat their bows.  Also by some accounts when an outstanding bow was taken in war, or traded for in peace, then its value and impressiveness was talked about and probably even mimicked by others, don't see any evidence of heat-treated bows there either.
Title: Re: Heat-treating in the old way?
Post by: bradsmith2010 on September 01, 2019, 03:37:47 pm
  I have a book at home forgot the name,, it talks about putting sand between layers of sinew on a bow,, sometimes I just think they make that stuff up,
Ok I hate to admit this,, my best hunting bow I was shooting, something came up I set it on the hood of the truck, strung, I forgot about it, rained all night,, next day there it was,,,I thought I ruined it,,
unstrung it ,, started shooting it the next day was fine,, I dont think I hit 200 fps though,,,
  hunted and stump shot the whole elk season with it,, on the long shots for stumps 130 yards,, it still had great cast, even with my 700 grain arrows,, made that bow with Jim Hamm bout 25 years ago,, ok enough bragging bout my water proof osage,, ;D
Title: Re: Heat-treating in the old way?
Post by: PatM on September 01, 2019, 03:45:43 pm
So far as I know all the museum pieces have noticeable set in the limbs and no visible evidence of heat-treating.  If it was practiced by even some natives then you would think it would be common practice to heat-treat their bows.  Also by some accounts when an outstanding bow was taken in war, or traded for in peace, then its value and impressiveness was talked about and probably even mimicked by others, don't see any evidence of heat-treated bows there either.

   The ones which are mentioned being practically black with age might be hiding it.
 
 The other explanation of course will be because the extant examples are from after the art was lost.  ;)
Title: Re: Heat-treating in the old way?
Post by: JW_Halverson on September 01, 2019, 04:51:11 pm
So far as I know all the museum pieces have noticeable set in the limbs and no visible evidence of heat-treating.  If it was practiced by even some natives then you would think it would be common practice to heat-treat their bows.  Also by some accounts when an outstanding bow was taken in war, or traded for in peace, then its value and impressiveness was talked about and probably even mimicked by others, don't see any evidence of heat-treated bows there either.

   The ones which are mentioned being practically black with age might be hiding it.
 
 The other explanation of course will be because the extant examples are from after the art was lost.  ;)

If the art was lost, claiming Native American heritage as bona fides becomes a false argument. If it was a lost art and there is no evidence of the actual process, again, how do you claim you rediscovered it. Chain of evidence and all that. Nah, this whole thing smacks of a pig in a poke designed to sucker the credulous neophytes.
Title: Re: Heat-treating in the old way?
Post by: PatM on September 01, 2019, 05:08:12 pm
I have heard numerous sources that stone tools were knapped by dripping boiling water from an eagle feather to pop off flakes. Utter B.S.

Just like a lot of supposedly handed down information about bow building, I think a whole heck of a lot of it is pure crap from people that have never made a bow.  And when someone comes up with yet another claim that their technique is exactly the way it was done way back when, I go to the cupboard for the big salt canister. Until I see an unbroken chain of evidence connecting the past with current times, I have to be skeptical.

Same goes for "revolutionary" breakthroughs making everything else obsolete.  In those cases I go to the feed store to buy a stack of salt blocks.

Combine the two together and I am stepping back, simply because I cannot afford to swing the mortgage payments on a former Soviet salt mine in Siberia.

If these claims by Shannon are as good as the hyperbole describes, I would like to see 5 similar whitewood bows left in the rain for 48 hours and then all shoot fairly close to 200 fps with 10 gpp arrows.

I honestly am considering buying a few bows from him just to try out. I mean, honestly, they do look nice... and sweet gum had my interest just because. I'd also get an elm bow from them as it's my favorite bow wood, and of course  an osage bow.

   You have between $900 and $1250 to buy bows to try out?
Title: Re: Heat-treating in the old way?
Post by: sleek on September 01, 2019, 05:26:15 pm
I have heard numerous sources that stone tools were knapped by dripping boiling water from an eagle feather to pop off flakes. Utter B.S.

Just like a lot of supposedly handed down information about bow building, I think a whole heck of a lot of it is pure crap from people that have never made a bow.  And when someone comes up with yet another claim that their technique is exactly the way it was done way back when, I go to the cupboard for the big salt canister. Until I see an unbroken chain of evidence connecting the past with current times, I have to be skeptical.

Same goes for "revolutionary" breakthroughs making everything else obsolete.  In those cases I go to the feed store to buy a stack of salt blocks.

Combine the two together and I am stepping back, simply because I cannot afford to swing the mortgage payments on a former Soviet salt mine in Siberia.

If these claims by Shannon are as good as the hyperbole describes, I would like to see 5 similar whitewood bows left in the rain for 48 hours and then all shoot fairly close to 200 fps with 10 gpp arrows.

I honestly am considering buying a few bows from him just to try out. I mean, honestly, they do look nice... and sweet gum had my interest just because. I'd also get an elm bow from them as it's my favorite bow wood, and of course  an osage bow.

   You have between $900 and $1250 to buy bows to try out?

In about 2 months I will
Title: Re: Heat-treating in the old way?
Post by: Deerhunter21 on September 01, 2019, 05:28:47 pm
I have heard numerous sources that stone tools were knapped by dripping boiling water from an eagle feather to pop off flakes. Utter B.S.

Just like a lot of supposedly handed down information about bow building, I think a whole heck of a lot of it is pure crap from people that have never made a bow.  And when someone comes up with yet another claim that their technique is exactly the way it was done way back when, I go to the cupboard for the big salt canister. Until I see an unbroken chain of evidence connecting the past with current times, I have to be skeptical.

Same goes for "revolutionary" breakthroughs making everything else obsolete.  In those cases I go to the feed store to buy a stack of salt blocks.

Combine the two together and I am stepping back, simply because I cannot afford to swing the mortgage payments on a former Soviet salt mine in Siberia.

If these claims by Shannon are as good as the hyperbole describes, I would like to see 5 similar whitewood bows left in the rain for 48 hours and then all shoot fairly close to 200 fps with 10 gpp arrows.

I honestly am considering buying a few bows from him just to try out. I mean, honestly, they do look nice... and sweet gum had my interest just because. I'd also get an elm bow from them as it's my favorite bow wood, and of course  an osage bow.

   You have between $900 and $1250 to buy bows to try out?

In about 2 months I will
:o wow sleek! which one you thinking?
Title: Re: Heat-treating in the old way?
Post by: sleek on September 01, 2019, 05:35:28 pm
I'm thinking about that elm and sweet gum they have for starts. If they have a decent bow  I'd like to learn from it.
Title: Re: Heat-treating in the old way?
Post by: bassman on September 01, 2019, 09:27:04 pm
Boy , this thread has really sparked the interest of some well seasoned bow makers. Trade them a couple of yours for a couple of theirs. That would be fair .They can compare yours, and you can compare theirs. That would be some pretty convincing evidence one way or the other.Just a thought.
Title: Re: Heat-treating in the old way?
Post by: bradsmith2010 on September 01, 2019, 09:41:55 pm
Well Sleek..,,that should be interesting (-P
Title: Re: Heat-treating in the old way?
Post by: bownarra on September 02, 2019, 12:29:25 am
. One limb sticks out of the top of the bow sock, and shows quite a bit of set in many of the  examples I have seen.Maybe they tempered the wood ,and bent it around a tree to get the shape back, and the bow,s power back.
[/quote]

Unlikely as if you do this you will get tension cracks in the belly. Once wood is compressed it really doesn't like being bent backwards around a tree.....
Title: Re: Heat-treating in the old way?
Post by: bownarra on September 02, 2019, 12:43:20 am
Sleek don't waste your money.
I finished another 190 @ 10gpp deflexed recurve out of elm a week or so ago. Send me a thousand dollars and its yours. It has lots of super duper hoodoo from the Ancient Brittons. Just like they used to make them....honest.
Joking aside if anybody can show me a better performing selfbow I'll be very impressed :)

I doubt they have come up with anything 'new'. I'll bet it is just heat treating with a wee bit of something added to make it 'different' ;) I'll still buy the DVD just for the craic as I have enjoyed Thad's other videos.
Title: Re: Heat-treating in the old way?
Post by: bassman on September 02, 2019, 05:33:22 am
Depends on the wood.
Title: Re: Heat-treating in the old way?
Post by: Marc St Louis on September 02, 2019, 08:17:55 am
I'm thinking about that elm and sweet gum they have for starts. If they have a decent bow  I'd like to learn from it.

If not then you're out $1000.  I have better things to do with my money.  If you are that curious then buy the DVD, much cheaper.  I believe your skills as a bowyer are high enough that you don't need any of that.
Title: Re: Heat-treating in the old way?
Post by: sleek on September 02, 2019, 12:09:17 pm
Sleek don't waste your money.
I finished another 190 @ 10gpp deflexed recurve out of elm a week or so ago. Send me a thousand dollars and its yours. It has lots of super duper hoodoo from the Ancient Brittons. Just like they used to make them....honest.
Joking aside if anybody can show me a better performing selfbow I'll be very impressed :)

I doubt they have come up with anything 'new'. I'll bet it is just heat treating with a wee bit of something added to make it 'different' ;) I'll still buy the DVD just for the craic as I have enjoyed Thad's other videos.

I'd like to discuss this bow with you when you have the time
Title: Re: Heat-treating in the old way?
Post by: Bryce on September 02, 2019, 12:09:31 pm
Ive read a LOT of old trapper journals and books. the amount of times native archery tools were talked about was slim. But from what I’ve read, central plains natives did carry around an extra stave or two for either trading or to use themselves. Some groups; like where I live in the PNW had plank houses and permanent settlements where they had specialists. In basket making, art, canoe makers and bowyers. Now that bowyer would have multiple staves in the rafters of his house. But since archery wasn’t the mainstay To acquire food, it was fishing. It wasn’t a very lucrative business lol others where also known and did make bows for themself and also had a handful of staves for trading and what not. not only that but lots of stuff was hanging to dry.
I’ve read about them using coals to shape the wood and whatnot but it wasn’t described as a hardening process or a type of treatment. Other woods and tools made from wood where described as being hardened for certain purposes. Maybe it just wasn’t clear to the author what was going on with the bow building process? Or it just simple wasn’t being treated at all.
Title: Re: Heat-treating in the old way?
Post by: lonbow on September 02, 2019, 02:13:38 pm
I own a book with the title "Belden, the white Chief".
George P. Belden lived among Native Americans in the plains for many years and his experiences and observations were published in 1870.
Belden wrote some observations about the making of bows and arrows. The bow staves and the wood for the arrows were seasoned above the fire in the teepee. After seasoning, the wood for the arrows is very tough and of a yellowish color. Belden also mentioned that a well seasoned and well made bow doesn´t follow the string.

I think that these are properties of a hardened wood. The process seems to be more gentle, but it takes much longer than the modern method. What are your thoughts?

lonbow
Title: Re: Heat-treating in the old way?
Post by: scp on September 02, 2019, 02:44:34 pm
Well dried bows are always better, within reason of course. I don't see anyone making bows out of heat treated lumber usually used for outdoor decking. Definitely lighter than before but probably too brittle for bow making. That's why I am not sure it's a good idea to heat treat the whole bow, instead of just the belly.
Title: Re: Heat-treating in the old way?
Post by: JW_Halverson on September 02, 2019, 03:25:44 pm
For one thing, if the bow blanks hanging in the teepee were heated to a point high enough to change cellular structure, people would be medium rare and ready for the Donner Dinner Party. So, that's not some technique for fire tempering or whatever. That's just pretty much normal curing process.
Title: Re: Heat-treating in the old way?
Post by: bradsmith2010 on September 02, 2019, 03:38:14 pm
Sleek you should by the 190 fps bow,,  :D
Title: Re: Heat-treating in the old way?
Post by: sleek on September 02, 2019, 03:46:18 pm
Sleek you should by the 190 fps bow,,  :D

Lol... you mean "TRADE" for it.. .

I'm waiting on him to reply to me about it. I'd like pics, and stats on it
Title: Re: Heat-treating in the old way?
Post by: bradsmith2010 on September 02, 2019, 03:50:47 pm
I bought a bow from Marc a few years back,, I love it,,,holding a good bow in the hand can be a learning experience,,
Title: Re: Heat-treating in the old way?
Post by: Bryce on September 02, 2019, 03:52:10 pm
Sleek you should by the 190 fps bow,,  :D

Lol... you mean "TRADE" for it.. .

I'm waiting on him to reply to me about it. I'd like pics, and stats on it

Good luck lol
Title: Re: Heat-treating in the old way?
Post by: Marc St Louis on September 02, 2019, 04:35:57 pm
I own a book with the title "Belden, the white Chief".
George P. Belden lived among Native Americans in the plains for many years and his experiences and observations were published in 1870.
Belden wrote some observations about the making of bows and arrows. The bow staves and the wood for the arrows were seasoned above the fire in the teepee. After seasoning, the wood for the arrows is very tough and of a yellowish color. Belden also mentioned that a well seasoned and well made bow doesn´t follow the string.

I think that these are properties of a hardened wood. The process seems to be more gentle, but it takes much longer than the modern method. What are your thoughts?

lonbow

Definitely not heat-treated merely taken on a patina from the smoke
Title: Re: Heat-treating in the old way?
Post by: PatM on September 02, 2019, 05:21:30 pm
It would be interesting to put a thermometer in the apex of a typical tepee  and see what the temp holds at up there.

 I think there night be some enhanced "seasoning"  benefits from that environment  if you believe there's more to curing wood than just drying.
Title: Re: Heat-treating in the old way?
Post by: Marc St Louis on September 02, 2019, 05:52:19 pm
It would be interesting to put a thermometer in the apex of a typical tepee  and see what the temp holds at up there.

 I think there night be some enhanced "seasoning"  benefits from that environment  if you believe there's more to curing wood than just drying.

I would agree with that.  I remember I used to say that heat-treating was also a method of speed seasoning wood
Title: Re: Heat-treating in the old way?
Post by: Bryce on September 02, 2019, 08:05:31 pm
It would be interesting to put a thermometer in the apex of a typical tepee  and see what the temp holds at up there.

 I think there night be some enhanced "seasoning"  benefits from that environment  if you believe there's more to curing wood than just drying.

I would agree with that.  I remember I used to say that heat-treating was also a method of speed seasoning wood

Agreed there is definite merit in proper seasoning/curing of staves. The cold are in the winter and the hot air in summer moving in and out of the wood I believe tempers it.. Making a difference between cured wood and dry wood.
Title: Re: Heat-treating in the old way?
Post by: Badger on September 02, 2019, 08:21:45 pm
Some bows will continue to creep up in weight and get faster as the years go by, if you are using the bow all the time you may not notice but if the bow is mostly sitting it becomes more apparent.
Title: Re: Heat-treating in the old way?
Post by: PatM on September 02, 2019, 09:16:37 pm
It would be interesting to put a thermometer in the apex of a typical tepee  and see what the temp holds at up there.

 I think there night be some enhanced "seasoning"  benefits from that environment  if you believe there's more to curing wood than just drying.

I would agree with that.  I remember I used to say that heat-treating was also a method of speed seasoning wood

Agreed there is definite merit in proper seasoning/curing of staves. The cold are in the winter and the hot air in summer moving in and out of the wood I believe tempers it.. Making a difference between cured wood and dry wood.
   
   Apparently the fluctuation if moisture and temp really does make a difference over time.   It is readily apparent when you work both types of wood.

 Try whittling an old hickory Axe handle or even re-working  an old bow.
Title: Re: Heat-treating in the old way?
Post by: Bryce on September 02, 2019, 10:11:16 pm
It would be interesting to put a thermometer in the apex of a typical tepee  and see what the temp holds at up there.

 I think there night be some enhanced "seasoning"  benefits from that environment  if you believe there's more to curing wood than just drying.

I would agree with that.  I remember I used to say that heat-treating was also a method of speed seasoning wood

Agreed there is definite merit in proper seasoning/curing of staves. The cold are in the winter and the hot air in summer moving in and out of the wood I believe tempers it.. Making a difference between cured wood and dry wood.
   
   Apparently the fluctuation if moisture and temp really does make a difference over time.   It is readily apparent when you work both types of wood.

 Try whittling an old hickory Axe handle or even re-working  an old bow.

Exactly. Even when you bounce em in the shop floor the sound it makes along with the bounce compared to just a ‘dry’ stave is totally different
Title: Re: Heat-treating in the old way?
Post by: Badger on September 02, 2019, 10:21:54 pm
  This is one of the reasons I have become interested in a slow prolonged heating process over days. I would be curious if anything changed.
Title: Re: Heat-treating in the old way?
Post by: Santanasaur on September 02, 2019, 11:45:00 pm
Has anyone tried speeding up the seasonal fluctuations to happen over days rather than months? If humidity or temperature fluctuations really are contributing to seasoning then maybe that effect can be sped up to a faster cycle.
Title: Re: Heat-treating in the old way?
Post by: sleek on September 02, 2019, 11:57:55 pm
This is done to artificially age aluminum to harden it for aircraft use. Makes sense to me that wood can be similarly affected.   
Title: Re: Heat-treating in the old way?
Post by: Bryce on September 03, 2019, 12:20:58 am
Has anyone tried speeding up the seasonal fluctuations to happen over days rather than months? If humidity or temperature fluctuations really are contributing to seasoning then maybe that effect can be sped up to a faster cycle.

I’m talking years man. I usually don’t pick up a stave to use for a bow unless it’s over 6 years cured.
I even rotate my staves 180 degrees every 6 months to insure even air flow over the whole thing.
Title: Re: Heat-treating in the old way?
Post by: Santanasaur on September 03, 2019, 01:41:13 am
I gotcha Bryce, I’m not saying it’s better to do it fast...just faster. Just like there’s quick drying  maybe there’s quick curing too. Hopefully I’ll be in less of a rush when i haven’t been building bows for less than half as long as you’re drying staves.
Title: Re: Heat-treating in the old way?
Post by: Santanasaur on September 03, 2019, 01:45:40 am
I also think it’s worth it to separate the variables of seasonal fluctuation and aging. how are they both contributing to curing? is a stave brought to ideal humidity and held exactly there for years worse than one that has gone through some fluctuation? maybe by speeding up the seasons we could get  an idea what each does
Title: Re: Heat-treating in the old way?
Post by: lonbow on September 03, 2019, 02:19:42 am
Speeding up the seasoning... that sounds really interesting. I wonder if the smoke does a contribution there. Im not sure if the smoke can reach the inner cells of the bow stave.
I wouldnt underestimate the temperaturs some meters above a fire. I think that the temperaturs might sometimes reach 390°f. Bit I dont know that of course. My only concern there is that the back of the bow gets brittle.
Title: Re: Heat-treating in the old way?
Post by: sleek on September 03, 2019, 08:27:08 am
Well, heat and cold trigger the tree to turn sap into heart wood. Maybe this is a chemical reaction that is temperature sensitive and still happens to a degree even after the tree is dead?
Title: Re: Heat-treating in the old way?
Post by: Santanasaur on September 03, 2019, 08:55:08 am
That really gets me wondering, sleek. Anyone know a name or keyword so we can find out more about that process? I haven’t found anything in my limited googling. I guess it makes sense that if we want to harden wood we should start looking into all the ways trees do it.
Title: Re: Heat-treating in the old way?
Post by: paulsemp on September 03, 2019, 09:11:26 am
I have cut some dead standing Osage where the bark was still somewhat on. There was no sapwood. All hardwood all the way up to the bark. There may be something to whats being said. I never thought about why that happened but it truly confused me when I saw it
Title: Re: Heat-treating in the old way?
Post by: sleek on September 03, 2019, 09:18:43 am
I have cut some dead standing Osage where the bark was still somewhat on. There was no sapwood. All hardwood all the way up to the bark. There may be something to whats being said. I never thought about why that happened but it truly confused me when I saw it

I have experienced the same with tornado downed trees. I cant say if it happened before or after the storm, but they had been dead awhile. If anyone knows of any dead standing osage, check it for sapwood please.
Title: Re: Heat-treating in the old way?
Post by: Marc St Louis on September 03, 2019, 12:04:53 pm
A long standing member here (Glenn Doane from VA) sent me a couple billets from a dead standing Osage, this is quite a few years ago.  It was lower density wood but was it ever elastic.
Title: Re: Heat-treating in the old way?
Post by: sleek on September 03, 2019, 12:17:49 pm
So it was low density and very elastic? Did it have sapwood, or was it already chased down?
Title: Re: Heat-treating in the old way?
Post by: Strichev on September 03, 2019, 12:29:43 pm
I've read that sapwood doesn't differ from heartwood when it comes to primary components of cell wall (cellulose, hemicellulose, lignin, glucomannan, xylan). Cellulose microfibril angle also doesn't change. The observed difference in properties is therefore attributed to extractives deposited during the transition from sapwood to heartwood. Primarily polyphenols and flavonoids. These compounds are thought to interact with the cell wall and change its properties.

A dead tree shouldn't produce/deposit these compounds, sapwood should remain in place after it's dead. Unless sapwood transitions to heartwood in its entirety shortly before the tree dies (or during cell death!) we should be able to see it.

Now, any method introducing similar compounds during heat-treatment should stand to reason if the properties of heartwood are indeed due to extractives. Maelming and similar techniques might be effective. I wonder if those " revolutionary™, moisture proof fire dancer™" bows don't use something similar.
Title: Re: Heat-treating in the old way?
Post by: PatM on September 03, 2019, 12:57:17 pm
 The changes are due to extractives.  I wouldn't be at all surprised if extractives can still diffuse out into the sapwood in a standing dead tree.  The pathways for them to move is not closed after death.

 Often trees which die standing seem to have more heartwood anyway, presumably as a reaction to whatever ailed them and made them die.

  It's worth noting that phenols are important in the manufacture of plastic substances like Epoxy and phenolic resins.   Seems quite likely that natural phenols in woods like Osage naturally form a more plastic like compound in cell walls over time in curing wood.
Title: Re: Heat-treating in the old way?
Post by: Marc St Louis on September 03, 2019, 12:59:57 pm
There was no sapwood in what I got, don't remember if I had to chase a ring
Title: Re: Heat-treating in the old way?
Post by: Deerhunter21 on September 03, 2019, 08:55:21 pm
did the sapwood rot away? i know the heartwood wont, the sapwood will.
Title: Re: Heat-treating in the old way?
Post by: Strichev on September 04, 2019, 03:08:52 am
did the sapwood rot away? i know the heartwood wont, the sapwood will.

Guys have found trees with bark still on but no sapwood. If the sapwood rotted away so would have the bark.
Title: Re: Heat-treating in the old way?
Post by: Ringeck85 on September 05, 2019, 03:07:34 pm
Guys I just want to say that I've found this thread discussion fascinating. 

I doubt there is any textual information directly referring to native Americans heat treating their bows in the earliest colonial explorations/conquests of the Americas, but I have a few translated works handy (from Spanish/Portuguese) of the Narvaez (1527ish?) and De Soto expeditions (1539-42?), and they had all sorts of interesting things to say about native archery (while some accounts were probably at least a little exaggerated). A common theme in these accounts was that the European explorers/would-be conquerors were apparently very impressed by their skill and strength (this is in the S.E., called "La Florida" overall by the Spanish, and pre-1600s).  And this was all before the 1545 sinking of the Mary Rose, so some of them would have been aware of English archers somewhat. 

I'll give that another look through and let you know if I find anything.  (Otherwise I'll post some notes on what I've found/some of my theories in another thread since this is a barely related tangent)
Title: Re: Heat-treating in the old way?
Post by: willie on September 06, 2019, 04:20:17 pm




Guys I just want to say that I've found this thread discussion fascinating. 

I agree.

Marc,

the discussion about aging and drying is becoming intertwined once more.

Just curious what your present thinking is about what is happening when a bowyer heat treats your way.

is there more happening to the wood than what would happen if the same stave was aged well?

or dried for an extended amount of time?

thanks 
Title: Re: Heat-treating in the old way?
Post by: Marc St Louis on September 06, 2019, 04:33:11 pm


Guys I just want to say that I've found this thread discussion fascinating. 

I agree.

Marc,

the discussion about aging and drying is becoming intertwined once more.

Just curious what your present thinking is about what is happening when a bowyer heat treats your way.

is there more happening to the wood than what would happen if the same stave was aged well?

or dried for an extended amount of time?

thanks

Well for one thing.  The high heat used for heat-treating will caramelize sugars in the wood and caramelized sugar is more resistant to water that dried sugar, what you would get from seasoned wood
Title: Re: Heat-treating in the old way?
Post by: PatM on September 06, 2019, 04:41:53 pm
Lignin in wood is a complex subject and its synthesis isn't even understood at this point.

 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lignin
Title: Re: Heat-treating in the old way?
Post by: meanewood on September 06, 2019, 06:04:46 pm
A while back, I made a 85lb longbow from a Yew sapling that had a diameter of 36mm at the middle of the stave.
 
All that was required to reduce and tiller the bow 400mm -500mm from the center was to flatten the belly.

This still left a sapwood belly apart from the upper and lower section of the limbs where the heartwood core emerged.

I was wary of heating this sapwood belly but some string alignment was needed so I went ahead.

The surprising thing is the yew sapwood became so hard, I could not stamp my 'mark' at the arrow pass.

So not only could yew sapwood hold up to belly compression but when heated it became harder than other yew heartwood I've heat treated in the past!

Has anyone else had this experience with yew sapwood?
Title: Re: Heat-treating in the old way?
Post by: Bryce on September 06, 2019, 09:22:03 pm
I gotcha Bryce, I’m not saying it’s better to do it fast...just faster. Just like there’s quick drying  maybe there’s quick curing too. Hopefully I’ll be in less of a rush when i haven’t been building bows for less than half as long as you’re drying staves.

I hear yah man.   I’ve been looking and experimenting, but I’m only a young buck and have only been at it 10 years, may sound like a long time but it’s nothing compared to some on this board.
But the more I try the more I think wood especially woods like yew with great sap content are like a well made wine. Just needs time.
Title: Re: Heat-treating in the old way?
Post by: PatM on September 06, 2019, 09:25:42 pm
You can find old literature on quick curing by "washing the sap out"   and an equal amount claiming that's the best part and time is needed to bring out the best.

   Cut more wood than you can use and eventually you end up with stuff that's ten years old and you find out the truth.
Title: Re: Heat-treating in the old way?
Post by: Halfbow on September 11, 2019, 06:20:44 am
Well, can confirm. I was in the woods yesterday and just happened to find some sapwood-less osage.

(https://i.imgur.com/gPr4tLM.jpg)

I didn't cut this, I found it like this. The tree was still attached to the ground, looking very old and gnarled and on its last legs, but it wasn't quite dead yet. Not sure what to make of it.

I doubt there is any textual information directly referring to native Americans heat treating their bows in the earliest colonial explorations/conquests of the Americas, but I have a few translated works handy (from Spanish/Portuguese) of the Narvaez (1527ish?) and De Soto expeditions (1539-42?), and they had all sorts of interesting things to say about native archery (while some accounts were probably at least a little exaggerated). A common theme in these accounts was that the European explorers/would-be conquerors were apparently very impressed by their skill and strength (this is in the S.E., called "La Florida" overall by the Spanish, and pre-1600s).  And this was all before the 1545 sinking of the Mary Rose, so some of them would have been aware of English archers somewhat. 

I'll give that another look through and let you know if I find anything.  (Otherwise I'll post some notes on what I've found/some of my theories in another thread since this is a barely related tangent)

Please do post, I'm really interested.
Title: Re: Heat-treating in the old way?
Post by: wstanley on September 13, 2019, 12:12:58 pm
COOL TOPIC!! In regards to nomads/or sedentary tribes stashing staves:

I agree they probably all had two bows each. In regards to the staves, I also believe they would have had several stashed away. You don't have to carry it with you (plains tribe or not), and perhaps its a better to stash away in a safe dry place; benefits of this: don't have to carry it around, wont loose it, wont get stolen, someone else you trust can get it, you can think of all the other possibilities. For nomadic people you were usually moving in a circular pattern, or at least staying within a region. So riding your horse to the rock outcrop where your bows are stashed, after breaking your last bow, would be quite efficient and effective.

I doubt few tribesman didn't have several backups of already made bows, and staves.

A comparison to this can be made by a biface cache that was found where I live. Cant say where due to legalities (I'm an archaeologist). Its was a cache of over 100 obsidian biface blanks - pre forms, also called trading blanks. These people were constantly on the move -Western Mono from the foothills, valley floor, and to the mountains. The cache was in a random spot you would have never guessed to look in a million years. Uncovered by large machinery. My point is they didn't carry all these tools with them, they would be stashed about at camps and other secretive places or places of power.

I'm new on here by the way. And really enjoying the topics!

Title: Re: Heat-treating in the old way?
Post by: sleek on September 13, 2019, 12:48:45 pm
COOL TOPIC!! In regards to nomads/or sedentary tribes stashing staves:

I agree they probably all had two bows each. In regards to the staves, I also believe they would have had several stashed away. You don't have to carry it with you (plains tribe or not), and perhaps its a better to stash away in a safe dry place; benefits of this: don't have to carry it around, wont loose it, wont get stolen, someone else you trust can get it, you can think of all the other possibilities. For nomadic people you were usually moving in a circular pattern, or at least staying within a region. So riding your horse to the rock outcrop where your bows are stashed, after breaking your last bow, would be quite efficient and effective.

I doubt few tribesman didn't have several backups of already made bows, and staves.

A comparison to this can be made by a biface cache that was found where I live. Cant say where due to legalities (I'm an archaeologist). Its was a cache of over 100 obsidian biface blanks - pre forms, also called trading blanks. These people were constantly on the move -Western Mono from the foothills, valley floor, and to the mountains. The cache was in a random spot you would have never guessed to look in a million years. Uncovered by large machinery. My point is they didn't carry all these tools with them, they would be stashed about at camps and other secretive places or places of power.

I'm new on here by the way. And really enjoying the topics!

WELCOME! And thanks for the informative post!