Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Flintknapping => Topic started by: Deerhunter21 on October 16, 2019, 07:06:48 pm
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ok guys, i got a box of rock, made an indirect and am meeting up with a flintknapping guy. Ive been working on a ton of rock and I get like 5 questions an hour of knapping. I feel like im posting too many threads so heres one big one so i dont clutter this page up too much. :KN :KN :-K :-K )P(
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And now the questions,
What type of rock is this? I gotta get more! This rock just taught me to hit the rock HARD but controlled. It works beautiful with percussion and is not prone to snapping or brittle.
When pressure flaking with a pressure flaker do i shoot flakes by pushing into the rock and then snapping
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Is that rainy buttes silicified wood? Nice looking material, best of luck to you.
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Yes! Thats it! Ugh, only git two good flakes and couldnt biface.
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Not sure how thick that piece is but if you set your platforms up correctly you should be able to pressure flake a nice point. The key is platform prep and “lots” of pressure. Meeting up with an experienced knapper makes a huge difference in the long run. Best of luck to you.
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I watched some videos and what im understanding is you do two short flakes to create a ridge and then you uae the ridge to swnd a long flake, am i right?
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So, your flakes won't travel all the way across, beautifully, until you remove those ridges. The energy wave can't travel through the ridgeline. Your strikes are moving directly into the ridge, which is why it stops there and you are left with a step. Bear with me...picture yourself going hiking and imagine as if the piece of stone's surface were the ridgelines you were going hiking up. You wouldn't want to walk up the steepest incline. You would want to walk along the gradual rise of the topography. Does that make sense? ???
Look at your piece of stone starting out primarily from the centerline, first. That is, look at it from a thickness perspective instead of the side profile. Considering both sides, you want to remove the thickest portions first, preparing a platform on the opposite side of what you intend to remove. This is where "centerline" comes to play. Take a sharpie pen and actually draw the centerline around the circumference of the stone. Everything to the right must go right. Everything to the left must go left. You are creating platforms to strike so that you are climbing the ridgeline in the direction of the gradual rise of the topography.
Considering your photo, here is my 2 cents:
Remove the Red 1 portion first in the opposite direction of the showing face with respect to centerline. This must be done to have a clean platform to strike in the direction of 2 and 3 respectively to thin the piece.
Abrade, abrade, abrade. Think about abrading with a great deal of pressure vs. very lightly and what difference that makes.
How tightly you hold the spall with your left hand matters as much as the proper placement of your strike with your right hand. Squeezing it too tightly will dampen the energy shock wave travelling through the stone.
When using percussion...think about "follow through", like with other sports. Follow through your strike.
Hope this helps.
Parnell
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i understand it all except the center line. could you explain it a bit more? So i thought i got what a percussion platform but i don't know after watching some videos. so you can make one kinda like a nipple but a bit more flat and isolate it. I know there's another one but i didn't understand it a lot. i'm worried to hit it with a bopper as i don't want it to snap but, well, its just a rock. i also don't know how to attack the #3 flake. thank you for the picture! it really helps!
oh yeah, i understand the hiking analogy. you need more energy to go up the ridge so if you do a regular flake with not enough energy it will terminate while traveling through or right after and putting too much energy could cause it to snap. so you have to get rid of it to send a good flake.
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I’ll try to put something together for you and post back this evening.
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This book is your best bet at getting a clear understanding. Try to pick it up.
Pictures to explain centerline. The middle of the thickness...I’m working on a sketch to help you.
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Look at these...
Prepare the platform with your pressure flaker, abrader, perhaps light percussion. Study the angle I drew and the concept.
Cris-cross with pressure to remove that first ledge. Abraded lightly at each newly released platform. Apply pressure below the centerline...in loading pressure, then down.
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The more elliptical the cross-section of your preform becomes, the better the flakes will travel across.
Take off the “tallest” ridge line, sequentially.
Abrade, abrade, abrade.
Don’t get stuck using just percussion. Use percussion, pressure, and abrading fluidly when preforming.
Whew! Ok... :o
And, oh yeah, don’t bother getting frustrated. You are going to have to break lots of rock.
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Wow,Steve! Good explanation. You sound like a Teacher.
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:o just had an ahah moment there! That really helps and now i really understand! I just got a job so rock is no issue now! Thank you so much! Mullet sums it up all in 2 sentences! Jeeze man! Your way good at helpin!
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Ha! Thanks, Eddie. Yeah, maybe the State of Florida will let me teach Knapping 101? )P(
DH - glad to help. I’ll be watching.
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Quick question. Why when im holding a rocm and i hit one side does the other side pop off? Its so annoying! I can hit one side without the other side popping off!
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Quick question. Why when im holding a rocm and i hit one side does the other side pop off? Its so annoying! I can hit one side without the other side popping off!
Mmm, don't understand. Please clarify that question. rocm? rock? Not sure what you mean about hitting on side but the other pops off...
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hmm ok. So I have a rock. Im holding one side and brace it with my finger where the flake should come off. I hit the place but instead of a flake coming off where i hit it the other side of the rock breaks off and i lose probably 1/10 to 1/2 of my rock. not a flake, but a piece of my rock. the angle of the place where the piece pops off is close to 90 degrees.
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here. normally the piece is square because im trying to zigzag edge, then it breaks off and it happens all over again. I cant get enough power with my pressure flaker to zigzag a pretty thick spall and my indirect is falling apart.
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Ok, I see what you are getting at.
My initial thought is that you are holding your spall too tightly in your left hand, assuming that you are right handed. The energy transfer from your percussion strike is well thought of as 50% from the impact and 50% from its ability to flow through the rock itself.
It is not only the ridgelines, ledges, step-fractures, etc. that keep it from being elliptical in cross section, part of the problem, but also, how you cradle the stone, where you cradle the stone, how much pressure you apply to the stone where you hold it and flinching a bit at impact...all these things will impede the flow of energy through your planned flake.
It seems that the back or broken off side, as shown in red from your drawing, was a choke point for the energy transfer and...el snapo.
Imagine the spall you are working with like holding a baby bird. You ever hear of the Classic Rock band named .38 Special? To quote..."Just hold on loosely, but don't let go, if you cling too tightly, your gonna lose control."
Let the force flow through you, young Jedi. ;D
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Is the issue simply hitting too high up on the platform? I've done that plenty of times and had the rock crack on the opposite side.....P
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Maybe poor support, hit one end an the other pops off from weak support :( Bob
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Maybe poor support, hit one end an the other pops off from weak support :( Bob
I just went out and hit a couple of rocks like I normally do to look at my support. I put no support on the side that pops off but i didn't see it until i actually did it. welp! instead of making small thick flakes im back to making gravel :-K ! i actually see myself improving! i get longer flakes every time if even only a little bit. Its slow progress but it feels quick! im getting excited! every time i fix a mistake im getting closer to making something!
“It's an energy field created by all living things. It surrounds us and penetrates us; it binds the galaxy together.” lets break that binding force off that rock one flake at a time!
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That's the attitude!
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quick question, when i apply pressure into the rock it is very hard for me to snap down to get a long flake. so instead i apply as much pressure into it that i can and slightly tilt the rock downwards until the force pushes the flake into it. it that doesn't work i put slight pressure down but i lose some of the force into it. is this ok or should i change before it becomes a habit?
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I don't pivot the rock so much as pivot the pressure flaker. The thing about the plastic Ishi sticks is they flex. That flex has a lot of snap.
I know you are having a go with indirect percussion. I had post on that previous thread regarding your beat up tool about considering sticking with the basics of an Ishi stick and hand held pressure flaker, to start.
I would recommend this so that you can get the feel of how much pressure should be applied in different situations, with different materials, and with different techniques, etc. There is more to learn than can simply be explained which is why you are going to need to start breaking a lot of rock.
Learn to use your your legs/inside of your thighs-knees as your power source for pressure. Consider how sharpness/bluntness and shape of your tip can influence your work. Have a file handy to sharpen/manipulate the tip frequently as I'm assuming you are using copper.
I recall reading something by, I think, Jackcrafty years back about active vs. passive pressure flaking. Active being being powerful bursts of pressure to pop flakes off, whereas passive loads the pressure gradually then the flakes release on their own when the force is great enough. Also, the idea of loading pressure gradually inward then...sort of twisting your wrist to "peel" flakes as if you were throwing a curveball.
All these things come into play. Again, there really is simply no substitute for one on one in person time with a mentor and...BREAKING A LOT OF ROCK!!!
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Hey so, lets say i'm at a landscape store, i see lots of rocks. how can i pick out which ones will possibly be knappable? I dont think they would let me break the rock too!
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Look for the rock in Parnell photo's. Who by the way gave outstanding instruction and I would love to sit in a knapping group with him. I can really use some percussion help.
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yeah, parnell gave some dang good instructions! Thanks Parnell!
Thankyou Jeb!
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Thanks or the compliment, guys. I'm always glad to be a help.
JEB, where are you at in the country?
DH - I don't have much of an answer for your question other than to be "discreet" about testing a piece of two and then just trying to cherry pick the pieces which would work. I really recommend getting a few bucks together and ordering some Georgetown to learn on.
It's what I really cut my teeth on. It's uniform and easy to work but isn't too glassy. You can see your successes and mistakes properly.
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with the money i got for my birthday, if i use it all, I can get 20# of Georgetown tab from Neolithics. Its called Raw Rock so i dont know but ill get some. I also dont know how to spall so... I could get my flintknapping buddy to do it for me and try to teach me... but I can go through 20# in a heartbeat. Ill go slow and carefully then and make sure to set my platforms up. :KN ;D
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Great advice from Steve. I totally understand the rock delima you have Russell. I and I'm sure most everyone made a lot of gravel. Then I tried making my gravel into anything I could. Eventually I made my gravel into something. I still have so much to learn. I do wish I had someone close by to knap with. The thing about this is even when you know what your supposed to do which sometimes I don't. You still have to execute it exactly right. The stone isn't very forgiving.
Bjrogg
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Yeah, nebraska has no rock at all :'( . only rock to be seen is a six hour drive away up in niobrarra, and that stuffs pretty rare too. I had the pleasure of working some Tallahata and that was amazing. its weird to work for sure but once you get used to it... Its sooooooo nice!
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So Georgetown is basically "good to go" when you get it. You don't need to heat treat and go through all that as it already works like heat treated rock. IMO it's the ideal rock, except it only comes in one color!
I think you'll find that there will be many workable spalls and flakes to really spike your learning curve with. I'd argue, more so than with any other rock when beginning.
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So Georgetown is basically "good to go" when you get it. You don't need to heat treat and go through all that as it already works like heat treated rock. IMO it's the ideal rock, except it only comes in one color!
I think you'll find that there will be many workable spalls and flakes to really spike your learning curve with. I'd argue, more so than with any other rock when beginning.
I know I'd really like to try it.
Bjrogg
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another question, whats the difference between a bopper and hammerstone? i like a hammerstone for early reduction and bopper for fine reduction.
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another question, whats the difference between a bopper and hammerstone? i like a hammerstone for early reduction and bopper for fine reduction.
As far as I know. One is copper and one is a stone. They both come in different shapes and sizes. Hammer stones can be harder or softer stone to.
Bjrogg
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let me give you an idea of what your gravel pile may look like once you get started. The dark gray rock is Georgetown and it's easy to spall.
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Eddie, better order some rock looks like your running a little low ;D Bob
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Ha! Gotta love it! How many years worth is that Eddie?
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Since 2004 Steve. I told the wife I was going to start Flat Rate boxing choice flakes and offer up for trades to get the pile lower.
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I had to sweep up my pile but it was like 6" by 2'. I love knapping...
Hey eddie, about the flat rate boxing... >:D >:D >:D
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Since 2004 Steve. I told the wife I was going to start Flat Rate boxing choice flakes and offer up for trades to get the pile lower.
Please let me know if you do :D
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Since 2004 Steve. I told the wife I was going to start Flat Rate boxing choice flakes and offer up for trades to get the pile lower.
Please let me know if you do :D
Me too. That looks like more than just a gravel pile.
Bjrogg
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Since 2004 Steve. I told the wife I was going to start Flat Rate boxing choice flakes and offer up for trades to get the pile lower.
Please let me know if you do :D
Me too. That looks like more than just a gravel pile.
Bjrogg
Me too!!
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The floor of the Twin Oaks knapping pit is 6" to 8" deep in "gravel". Lots of good stuff just laying around. Will be a lots more in May.
:KN (=) :-K :OK
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The floor of the Twin Oaks knapping pit is 6" to 8" deep in "gravel". Lots of good stuff just laying around. Will be a lots more in May.
:KN (=) :-K :OK
are you able to grab a box and just fill up????
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DH - It's an interesting question. I think out of manners just loading up a box or rocks feels like taking something that doesn't belong to you. But, periodically the pit has to be cleaned out and loads of useful stuff goes to a dump pile, where it can be picked through. When people are sitting there knapping... the stuff on the ground is fair game when its been sitting there and the person who left it isn't claiming it.
It's kinda funny you ask that question, I've never really stopped to consider the etiquette behind the debris.
If you were to go to Mullet's place or mine, just grabbing something would be wrong, of course. But, at Twin Oaks it is a club and it belongs to them and Pappy. It seems the best thing to do would be to speak with Pap. Hospitality and generosity are valued highly with those folks. That's my 2 cents.
Do you intend to go to The Classic next spring? Or, another event?
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Steve I'd have to agree. If I'm remembering correctly Pappy's crew cleaned out the pit last year before the classic. Probably a bunch of stuff there somewhere that would help a beginner knapper. I would ask Pappy about it.
The first year I was at Marshall Primitive Archery Meet. They had a couple buckets of "free stuff ". Marshall doesn't seem to draw a huge crowd of knappers. They did draw a lot of people who would like to learn how to though. The free stuff was mostly flakes and stuff that someone else had trouble with and gave up on. I got a few pieces and made some pretty decent points from it. Made some of it into smaller gravel and learned a lot. The free stuff went really fast. As free stuff usually does. I think it was a nice way to clean up someone's pit. Might work good for the Classic
Bjrogg
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I have finals during Marshalls and my dads going on a trip but the Classic I can go to if my parents will allow. I just don't want to get someone mad, but also if they're just leaving it there...
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I'll wait till after the Holidays are over then I'll load some boxes up. When the pit at Twin Oaks get shoveled out I think it gets dumped in the creek. A lot of times someone in the club will leave spalls or partial worked pieces in the pit till they have time to work on them. So it would be best to ask first before taking any flakes.
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I found a source for rock. My friend has land that was a limestone quarry. One of Nebraskas only flintknappable rock is there
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Russell,
Did you get to work with the chert I sent? There is a lot more in that rock pile! I haven't gotten to it yet.
Hawk dancer
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Yes Ive worked with the rock that you sent me. I'm going to send a couple to a guy to heat treat them and see how that affects them. Unheat treated it hurts my knee and wrist like a ........... But it flakes really good! just gotta hit it hard :KN :KN!
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Thanks for the warning! I'll cook it a bit before I start working it!
Hawkdancer
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ttt for the other thread
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Been a while but im still knapping! My boppers toast tho. I'm embarrassed to even post a pic oh all the things I did to try to keep it alive and not need to make a new one... screws... nails.... glue... wedges....
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Russel, google Flint Knapping Tools. (you know what.) ;) Mark has some reasonable priced tools for sale.
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I ordered 3 boppers from Mark not long ago. You will have to bite the bullet and order some or make your own which can be a pain. I have done it and like I wrote, I then ordered 3 from Mark.
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Russel, google Flint Knapping Tools. (you know what.) ;) Mark has some reasonable priced tools for sale.
um im kina confused, i dont know "what", (lol). and i know alot of Marks.... maybe its just because its just because its late but i dunno ??? ??? :) :) ;D ;D
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Sent you a PM
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ohh! thankyou!! ;D
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Funny story! I have only a little easy flaking rock left so I’ve been breaking my wrist on some horrible Texas stuff that completely destroys my hammerstones and my already destroyed bopper. Then.... I find some obsidian spalls hiding in the corner! Seems to me like I got pretty good aim from needing to hit that hard stuff perfectly and I can now hit my rock, not hard per se, but very fast and I now am Now seeing a lot of growth in the stage that I get my rock to! Thank goodness for obsidian!
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Pics
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That’s cool. Your flake scars look like they are traveling pretty well. Good to see that thickness picture and your center-line. Keep it going!
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hahaha! i can finally thin stuff down!! Its amazing!!!!!
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Looks like your starting to get the hang of I Russell.
Bjrogg
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To answer Parnell's question from last December. I am in Michigan. Way south and way west of BJRogg.
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Not sure how thick that piece is but if you read this post about phentermine OTC (https://thefecaltransplantfoundation.org/phentermine-over-the-counter/) or also called phentermine over the counter set your platforms up correctly you should be able to pressure flake a nice point. The key is platform prep and “lots” of pressure. Meeting up with an experienced knapper makes a huge difference in the long run. Best of luck to you.
We are a group of highly skilled flintknappers that specialize in replicating stone tools and creating lithic art. Our unique hand-made items are intended to be care all of them ?
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Not sure how thick that piece is but if you set your platforms up correctly you should be able to pressure flake a nice point. The key is platform prep and “lots” of pressure. Meeting up with an experienced knapper makes a huge difference in the long run. Best of luck to you.
We are a group of highly skilled flintknappers that specialize in replicating stone tools and creating lithic art. Our unique hand-made items are intended to be care all of them ?
I dont understand fully what you said at the end.... "to be care all of them"
but also Dlewis, i got it down!! its a lot more platform set up than pressure but thats because your really need a platform to handle all the pressure! also, understanding the way the cone works and how the flake will terminate helped me a ton more. turns out i was getting the angle wrong lol!!
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Not sure how thick that piece is but if you read this post about phentermine OTC (https://thefecaltransplantfoundation.org/phentermine-over-the-counter/) or also called phentermine over the counter set your platforms up correctly you should be able to pressure flake a nice point. The key is platform prep and “lots” of pressure. Meeting up with an experienced knapper makes a huge difference in the long run. Best of luck to you.
We are a group of highly skilled flintknappers that specialize in replicating stone tools and creating lithic art. Our unique hand-made items are intended to be care all of them ?
Large Triple Flow Obsidian Cody Knife Flint Knapping Black Powder Lithic Art
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Friends of yours, Russell? ;D
These last posts look off. I’m not following these last new guy posts. What are you talking about BrianHare?
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Friends of yours, Russel? ;D
No... I’m pretty confused too....
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I’d hit the report to moderator, Russell. Something is weird about that...
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Russell, let me know if it gets weirder.
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I clicked on those quotes and I was notified I could not access the source. Who registered this guy? Could his account be hacked? Is obsidian sold 'over the counter'?
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He's been a member since Nov. 2020 but these are his first posts. Like I said, if it gets weirder, let me know. I don't come here often.
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Go to my "Jack Crafty" channel on youtube and do a search of my videos with keywords. If you dont know how to do that, just do a youtube search like "Jack Crafty flintknapping platforms" or "Jack Crafty flintknapping spall" or "Jack Crafty heat treating" etc., etc. I have over 800 videos. ;D
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A moderator report brought me to this thread. I was tempted to delete the weird post by the new guy but I posted a reminder about my channel instead.
Glad to see that you are progressing well, Deerhunter.
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Jack, I already watch a ton of your videos and I have to say you do a good job on them! Thanks for making them as they have helped me learn a lot! I recommend your videos to anyone that is interested about knapping hahaha.
Anyway, thanks!
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Sounds good. I'm glad you're asking questions and posting photos in this forum.
Which reminds me, if anyone is having trouble posting photos (which seems to be a big obstacle and a reason for not posting) you can email the photos to me at jackcrafty2@gmail.com and I'll post them for you if I can.
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Thought I’d bring this back up so I don’t clutter the flintknapping page.
I just fluted my first point! Only on one side but i did it! One step closer to replicating that point that I bought!
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I lost most of it because I messed up the flute 2 times I think. I’m proud of this one!
Here is the point that I’m looking to replicate. It’s an artifact cast of a Folsom point.
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Nice Russell.
That’s a very worthy goal. I have enjoyed watching your progress.
Bjrogg
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Thanks BJ! I sure hope I can do it!
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Here’s some fluting preforms I made to flute with my friend! If anyone has any tips for fluting please do share!
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Some Georgetown should be coming in tomorrow so I should be posting a lot in the next 2 weeks!
I do have a question about selling points
1. Where do If I’m interested in selling some nice points?
2. How do you guys determine the value of your points?
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That turned out really well. Great work!
Sorry I missed you…was traveling.
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Thanks Parnell!!! ;D
its all good man! i get it!