Primitive Archer

Main Discussion Area => Shooting and Hunting => Topic started by: WhistlingBadger on October 25, 2019, 06:31:25 pm

Title: Bare Shaft Tuning: The Saga Continues
Post by: WhistlingBadger on October 25, 2019, 06:31:25 pm
So, here's my first test set with bare shafts.  Weights are written on the shaft.  Cut to 31", 145g points.
(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-gkZMFC-pfJI/XbOD0KAyWqI/AAAAAAAAC6c/AgqZuCxIuFsCpA6As6s1-smRjW4ieHd3QCLcBGAsYHQ/s1600/100_0217.JPG)

Despite the weird camera angle, the 40 is showing slightly heavy, the 35 quite a bit light.  Clay Hayes says to cut your shafts long, go with the one that's slightly light, and shorten it.  So, that's what I'm trying.

Narrowing it down, with similar results.  Again, pardon the weird camera angle; the little red stump at the bottom is perpendicular for reference:
(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-pV7apbNu9r4/XbODzu7wBAI/AAAAAAAAC6Y/46oZt20-1FM00Q4WRoXalLT-64ZMQkAtgCLcBGAsYHQ/s1600/100_0219.JPG)

Cut the 35 pounder down 1/2 inch.  The purple shaft is perpendicular for reference:

(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-MtfM7Yo2BJY/XbOD3fpRoDI/AAAAAAAAC6k/qvP_F9QkcCkhuQU4wn5bhIlxJDLitF-_wCLcBGAsYHQ/s320/100_0220.JPG)

Took off another quarter inch; off to go shoot it a couple times and see what happens.  Stay tuned...

Thomas
Title: Re: Bare Shaft Tuning: The Saga Continues
Post by: WhistlingBadger on October 25, 2019, 06:34:59 pm
I guess I should add I'm not really worried about groups at this point.  Just trying to find the spine that flies the straightest.  Shooting at 12 yards.
Title: Re: Bare Shaft Tuning: The Saga Continues
Post by: WhistlingBadger on October 25, 2019, 06:45:28 pm
30", looking better:

(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-WzF870MHMQ0/XbOHs25sC-I/AAAAAAAAC7A/y8F3wLiuTjY489XbmRlJ1EX5d4mQDpcgACLcBGAsYHQ/s320/100_0222.JPG)
Title: Re: Bare Shaft Tuning: The Saga Continues
Post by: TimBo on October 25, 2019, 07:42:34 pm
"Stay tuned" indeed...yuk yuk yuk.  Looking good!
Title: Re: Bare Shaft Tuning: The Saga Continues
Post by: burchett.donald on October 26, 2019, 08:09:43 am
Thomas,
             Glad you are doing this, mainly because your a hunter...This will insure you have optimum penetration at close range, having the entire shaft pushing straight behind the head for those close shots...If I see an arrow kick out just the slightest amount it doesn't go in the hunting quiver...Bare shafting magnifies everything for you that you "can't" see even if you "think" your fletched shaft is flying perfect...I also like your idea of the perpendicular purple shaft for reference...
             You probably already know this but shoot each corrected shaft 5-10 times to get a mental picture of what it's doing...Bare shafting will also magnify any poor releases or anchor changes...
                                                                                                                   Don
Title: Re: Bare Shaft Tuning: The Saga Continues
Post by: WhistlingBadger on October 26, 2019, 09:04:55 am
Timbo, I honestly didn't see the pun.  But if I had, I'd have said it anyway.  ha ha ha

Donald--thanks.  That's what I'm thinking.  My arrows fly well enough with fletching, but the early wobbles can't do much for speed or penetration, especially on larger game--elk, moose, maybe even a bear some day.  Plus it's fun fiddling around with them, and it is some of the best work on form I've ever done.  You're right--one tiny wobble in my form and the arrow is all over the place!

Going to keep shooting and whittling down, shooting and whittling down, until the arrow is perfectly straight, or too short to shoot anymore.  If that happens, I guess I'll order some heavier heads, go to the 40# shaft and start over.
Title: Re: Bare Shaft Tuning: The Saga Continues
Post by: burchett.donald on October 26, 2019, 09:36:37 am
  Keep us posted on your findings Thomas...Your thread will help a lot of folks along the same trail...
                                                                                                                                                   Don
Title: Re: Bare Shaft Tuning: The Saga Continues
Post by: WhistlingBadger on October 26, 2019, 12:44:03 pm
Down to 29 1/2 inches this morning.  I think we have a winner!  Four in a row looked just like this at 12 yards:
(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-6QOzlKlaZvc/XbR_8VPd0vI/AAAAAAAAC7U/61zriIueRGIxKDtb4OdlVZVU8G8gMNqgwCLcBGAsYHQ/s320/100_0223.JPG)

Same arrow at 20 yards.  Bit of a side-wind kicking up--rushing to get this done before the forecasted snow storm this afternoon--but flying without a wobble, as far as I can see.  Red arrow is perpendicular for reference.
(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-kThz3c4ccqs/XbR_8RzwDkI/AAAAAAAAC7Q/4Bas5IwQfj4V7c9DAsFNpybDzE5PY7EbQCLcBGAsYHQ/s320/100_0224.JPG)

(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-I1t2RljNw00/XbSABu8hC0I/AAAAAAAAC7c/6Fy6ErR-5SAJt_Hh4bw1OC0pBrNzaYT7QCLcBGAsYHQ/s320/100_0226.JPG)

(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-cgtjuI4sMDk/XbSAClfg8jI/AAAAAAAAC7g/OxRGUSVI3kwO_7u1TLZiY_32Be4Va6yEACLcBGAsYHQ/s320/100_0227.JPG)
Title: Re: Bare Shaft Tuning: The Saga Continues
Post by: WhistlingBadger on October 26, 2019, 12:47:29 pm
So, I think I can safely say that 35# spine at around 29" is what is going to work best with this bow.  Next step, besides shooting it a few more times once the wind calms down, will be to order a dozen sitka spruce shafts in this spine, tune up one of them to confirm my result and tweak the exact length if necessary, then get down to building arrows!   :NN

35# seems really light for a 60# bow, but the handle really is quite wide, especially with the braided leather wrap.  If they flies straight, I shoots 'em!

Thomas
Title: Re: Bare Shaft Tuning: The Saga Continues
Post by: burchett.donald on October 26, 2019, 04:29:40 pm
     These hand made wood bows are never the same...So many variables come into play, handle width from center, design of bow, shooting style, various tillers and on and on and on will affect arrow deflection.........No AMO standards for my primitive set ups...What you done Thomas was tune your arrow to your personal set up and it looks really good from here...Nice job on thread and pictures are worth a thousand words man, excellent job...
                                                                                                                                                    Don
                                                                                                                 
Title: Re: Bare Shaft Tuning: The Saga Continues
Post by: PEARL DRUMS/PEARLY/PD/DRUMS on October 27, 2019, 07:11:52 am
This answers your questions that popped up a few weeks back. Its a good feeling have a super tuned bow. Id be willing to bet your accuracy improves instantly.
Title: Re: Bare Shaft Tuning: The Saga Continues
Post by: TSA on October 28, 2019, 04:09:01 pm
very well done
i must say i like the idea of the bales.
i have always used a more homogeneous foam material, to ensure that the medium was consistent, and that hard lumps didnt deflect the shaft and produce a false reading.
however with the softer bale medium, there is a greatly reduced chance of breaking, and as Don said, multiple shootings of the same shaft will create a good mental picture of what the shaft is doing..

good job!! :OK :OK
Title: Re: Bare Shaft Tuning: The Saga Continues
Post by: WhistlingBadger on October 28, 2019, 04:34:41 pm
Thanks, TSA and Pearly.  I use bales because I live on a hay pasture, so hay bales are pretty easy to come by.  Despite the fairly soft target, I have broken several shafts throughout this process, but they were shafts that weren't going to work for my bow anyway.  Firewood is firewood, right?
Title: Re: Bare Shaft Tuning: The Saga Continues
Post by: bradsmith2010 on November 06, 2019, 03:13:11 pm
ok so what was the final result,, 35# spine worked the best from your 60# bow,,
you said the handle was a bit wide,, maybe think about adjusting the bow a bit,, as well
maybe the string is lined up better on the the other side,,
also put a piece of tape on the arrow and see if you are pulling to 60#,, I am thinking you should not have to go that low in spine to get good arrow flight,,
if its working for you thats all that matters,, but I am thinking it is indicating a bit of bow tuning is needed as well,,  :)
Title: Re: Bare Shaft Tuning: The Saga Continues
Post by: WhistlingBadger on November 06, 2019, 04:13:53 pm
ok so what was the final result,, 35# spine worked the best from your 60# bow,,
you said the handle was a bit wide,, maybe think about adjusting the bow a bit,, as well
maybe the string is lined up better on the the other side,,
also put a piece of tape on the arrow and see if you are pulling to 60#,, I am thinking you should not have to go that low in spine to get good arrow flight,,
if its working for you thats all that matters,, but I am thinking it is indicating a bit of bow tuning is needed as well,,  :)

Well, I'm waiting for some new sitka spruce shafts so I can build actual arrows, but the 35# POC shaft flies well with no fletching, even out to 20 yards, so that's what I'm going with.  It seems low to me, too, but that's what worked best.  Everything I've read says that shooting off the hand demands a lighter arrow, but that seems a little crazy.  My bowyer (Curt Brisky) said that, in his experience, 60# shafts should fly well out of a 60# bow, but I haven't really found that to be the case.  Maybe it's something about the way I shoot.

What kind of tuning do you have in mind, Brad?  I shoot off the hand, so there's really no shelf to adjust, and I'm not at all up to learning to shoot right handed, so tuning opportunities would seem to be limited.  I really should figure a way to measure my actual draw weight; I suspect it has settled into something less than 60#, but I don't have a way to measure how much.  Let me know what you're thinking I might need to change.

Interestingly, I did find that I was nocking way too high on the string.  I had to move way down before my shafts started hitting level.  This process has given me a whole new appreciation for what good fletching does:  I've been shooting quite well, out to 30 yards, with arrows that don't fly worth poo as bare shafts.  Feathers cover a multitude of sins!

Thomas
Title: Re: Bare Shaft Tuning: The Saga Continues
Post by: Knoll on November 06, 2019, 08:06:49 pm
Congrats, sir!
I agree re straw bales being good idea to reduce risk of breaking shafts that are wayyyy off spine-wise.
A small point . . . fletchings will add bit of dynamic stiffness to the completed arrow. So it's not bad idea to have the bare shafts indicating bit weak.
Good luck when ya get out there huntin' with them!
Title: Re: Bare Shaft Tuning: The Saga Continues
Post by: bradsmith2010 on November 07, 2019, 12:57:24 pm
WB,, I didnt mean to shoot right handed,, just maybe flip the bow over and see if it shoots better on the other side,, the way your handle is made may not allow that,, just a thought,,when I make a bow ,, I shoot it off both sides to see which way I get the best arrow flight,, if you are not drawing the bow to 60#,, then it would call for a weaker spine arrow,,
in my experience,, a 60# bow will shoot a 60# spine arrow depending on how long the draw is and how long the arrow is,, usually the persons release has alot to do with how the arrow flies,, its not all the arrow and the bow,, its not that simple,,,as your release gets better,, you will see you can shoot a wider range of spine from your bows,,
if I made a bow that was pulling 60# and needed to shoot 35# spince arrows,, I would be double checking the string alignment,, and brace height,, first,, it would indicate something might need adjustment,,not just the arrow,, as you stated,, it may be your release ,,, I am just going from my experience and it may not apply to what you are experiencing,, best to you and your shooting,, :)
Title: Re: Bare Shaft Tuning: The Saga Continues
Post by: WhistlingBadger on November 07, 2019, 02:37:12 pm
Yeah, it's hard to tell, isn't it?  So many variables.  I don't have a coach/teacher/mentor to watch me shoot and make suggestions, just books, vids, the net, and what I've figured out for myself through trial and error (that last category is mighty slim).  I'll be curious to see how the 35# arrows fly fletched.  I'm guessing they won't drastically improve my shooting, but might remove or reduce one variable from the equation.  We shall see!
Thomas
Title: Re: Bare Shaft Tuning: The Saga Continues
Post by: bradsmith2010 on November 07, 2019, 05:12:50 pm
what is your brace height, and can you show a pic of your handle
Title: Re: Bare Shaft Tuning: The Saga Continues
Post by: artcher1 on November 09, 2019, 06:39:29 am
A 35# arrow 29" long using the standard 125gr point is actually 30#. To me that's pretty scary shooting out of a 60 pound bow. Throw in a wide handle and the arrow reacts even lighter. Going with 35# sitka shafts leaves you with only a couple options. And that is to shorten the shaft or use lighter points. By ordering heavier spines you have the option of leaving your arrows longer, use heavier points and rear taper the shafts.  Right now you have one cedar arrow that likes your bow, but there's no guarantee that the sika will. I've never had to go lighter than 10# up to a 2" wide handle. I think you may have a string alignment or other problems....Art
Title: Re: Bare Shaft Tuning: The Saga Continues
Post by: WhistlingBadger on November 09, 2019, 08:06:42 am
OK.  How would I know if I have string alignment problems?  Also, my brace height is 5 1/2".
Title: Re: Bare Shaft Tuning: The Saga Continues
Post by: artcher1 on November 09, 2019, 08:39:47 am
A couple things come to mind. First you sight down the bow from tip to tip and see if the string cuts center of handle. Or nock an arrow and see where it makes contact on each side the riser. If both contact points are the same then you may have some limb twisting going on when the bow is drawn....Art
Title: Re: Bare Shaft Tuning: The Saga Continues
Post by: WhistlingBadger on November 09, 2019, 08:42:33 am
Or nock an arrow and see where it makes contact on each side the riser. If both contact points are the same then you may have some limb twisting going on when the bow is drawn....Art

Could you elaborate on that, Art?  Not sure I'm following you.

Thanks for the help and advice, guys.  I'll get this figured out.
Title: Re: Bare Shaft Tuning: The Saga Continues
Post by: artcher1 on November 09, 2019, 08:56:48 am
OK, nock an arrow, place it against the riser (assuming your bow has a straight handle without a cut-in shelf) on the right side and mark where it makes contact. Now flip the arrow around to the left side of the riser and mark where it makes contact. If the string is well centered, both contact marks on the left and right sides of the riser will appear in the same position. If not, the contact marks will appear off-set form each other......Art   
Title: Re: Bare Shaft Tuning: The Saga Continues
Post by: bradsmith2010 on November 09, 2019, 09:21:12 am
Art,,.could u explain a different way,,I don't quite get it...
WB,,..sorry if u already said this,,,but how far are u drawing the bow,,,put a mark or tape on the arrow..,.draw the bow like shooting,,,not just pulling it back...sometimes when we shoot the draw will be different,.,if your handle is a bit square you may be twisting the handle a bit as u shoot...causing the arrow to respond to that,,,hold bow with loose grip,..try 6 inch brace
Title: Re: Bare Shaft Tuning: The Saga Continues
Post by: artcher1 on November 09, 2019, 09:47:30 am
I'll try Brad. Let's say you're using a straight handled bow, no cut-in shelf. And you're right-handed. Take and nock and arrow like you're going to shoot. Note where it makes contact against the window/riser and mark that spot. Then swing the arrow (still nocked, and duck) to the other side of the handle and note where it makes contact. If string alignment is good, and the handle is cut in square to the bow, then both marks will contact the same on either side of the handle. If not, string alignment is off....Art
Title: Re: Bare Shaft Tuning: The Saga Continues
Post by: bradsmith2010 on November 09, 2019, 10:11:03 am
Ok I get it,..thank u for explaining,.so if string alignment favors the arrow side of the bow arrow clearance would be ok,,..if string alignment favors the other side of the bow,,,it could cause spine or arrow tuning issues,,.
Title: Re: Bare Shaft Tuning: The Saga Continues
Post by: artcher1 on November 09, 2019, 10:18:35 am
👍
Title: Re: Bare Shaft Tuning: The Saga Continues
Post by: WhistlingBadger on November 09, 2019, 03:11:16 pm
Bingo, the string is out of alignment with the handle.  Photos in a while...
Title: Re: Bare Shaft Tuning: The Saga Continues
Post by: WhistlingBadger on November 09, 2019, 06:38:36 pm
I got to go out in the hills today, and did some hiking and shooting.  Since no suicidal rabbits were presenting themselves, I did some thinking about string alignment.  When I hold my bow so the handle looks lined up, the string looks like this:
(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-h-iK7AAm1VA/XcdX8OsloDI/AAAAAAAAC9U/X31EU13YMcEXi5Qc2xKN50TBcpbC0adXwCLcBGAsYHQ/s320/100_0242.JPG)

Here it is unstrung.  I don't know how I didn't notice this before.
(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-A4VRMjJhSFE/XcdX8MyI-QI/AAAAAAAAC9Y/NbWgB7C1LyQGrVoFgGk8ZFSM8UQzZC_JACLcBGAsYHQ/s320/100_0246.JPG)

So, when I got home, I tried shooting the bow upside down with a couple unfletched arrows left over from my test kit.  The 58# shaft took a right turn at 10 yards:  Still too stiff (I'm left-handed, remember).  Dang.   I had a 40# shaft that seemed to fly pretty well at 10 yards, but somewhere between 10 and 20 yards it took such a drastic left turn it completely missed the 20 yard bales.  So, too weak, but taking a few yards to show it.  I'll have to whip up a 45, 50, and 55 and see how they do.

So, is this misaligned string going to cause flight problems, break my bow, contribute to global warming, or otherwise make a nuisance of itself, or is it just something I can deal with?
Title: Re: Bare Shaft Tuning: The Saga Continues
Post by: bradsmith2010 on November 09, 2019, 09:26:28 pm
I think try shooting it upside down with correct arrow,,.and loose grip,,.see how it does,,,,then take it from there,,.that should prevent global warming,..worse case is u send the bow to someone to align it,,,but it won't break,..try shooting it a bit first.,,I have bows I can shoot either limb up...
    Also your armguard may be hitting the string too hard ..,interfering with arrow flight,,,try something thinner,..and see how it shoots,,,a thick shirt,.that could be part of the spine issue
Title: Re: Bare Shaft Tuning: The Saga Continues
Post by: artcher1 on November 10, 2019, 04:20:23 am
What Brad said!

I'm going to be honest with you here. I think you should ditch this idea of bare shaft tuning. You need a well built bow, perfect form and a super release to achieve an accurate reading of your bare shaft. Throw in the fact that every wood/cane shaft is totally different unlike aluminum and carbon shafts. Not only that, the wider your bow handle, the harder it is to match up bow and arrow.
If your draw length is less than 28", order shafts the same weight as your bow. Now you have the option of either leaving your arrows longer than 28", or using a heavier tip weight and sanding to reduce spine. Generally 5# to !0# lighter then bow will get you started. Any issues after that are bow and operator induced....Art
Title: Re: Bare Shaft Tuning: The Saga Continues
Post by: WhistlingBadger on November 10, 2019, 08:00:22 am
Well...I appreciate the honesty. It is kind of confusing.  It's the trouble with attempting to educate oneself about a complex skill: One gets mixed messages.  A lot of writers, here on the forum and elsewhere, say that some form of tuning is absolutely essential.  Others say, as Art just said, that it isn't really worth bothering with.  A few have even implied that it might be a bad thing.  I suspect all of you are correct, in some sense, but there are different approaches and different ways of looking at it.  It was the same when I started getting serious about finding an aiming method.  I am taking it all in, digesting all the different information, and trying to find what works for me.

Will this process turn me into Byron Ferguson?  *snort* Not likely.  Is this process totally necessary?  Probably not.  My "wrong" arrows usually fly well enough, and when they don't, it's operator error.  So, why am I still pursuing this?  It is largely just a fun thing to do.  I am learning a huge amount about the mechanics of how my bow works, polishing out some remaining inconsistencies in my shooting form, having lots of "oh, wow, why did that just happen?" moments.

That can't be a bad thing. 

My form and release have actually gotten quite good, if I may say so--that's an area where I've grown hugely in the past year.  (And Brad, I hardly ever hit my arm guard anymore, thankfully--even with a guard, this bow can whack me pretty good!)  In the early stages of working on form, learning about gap aiming, and gaining consistency, I noticed that my arrows were frequently grouping to the right.  I have since settled into a sort of split-vision/instinctive style of aiming, and I've just learned to compensate.  So I can shoot fairly accurately, even though my arrows are wobbling right a bit.  I believe that by getting my arrow spines more attuned to my bow, I will greatly reduce that variable.  Again, I have to think that's a good thing.

Mental focus/confidence is the huge issue to me when I shoot. By getting my tuning as close as possible, I remove one variable, one thing to wonder about.  With one less reason to miss, I can continue to buckle down and work on form, "aiming" (or whatever term you prefer to use), and the rest.  When I do miss, I don't have to wonder if the problem is my arrows, so I can focus on the real issues.  That definitely seems like a good thing.

If nothing else, at least now I know why that ridiculously light-spined arrow was the one flying well.  With the string about an inch to the left of the handle, the arrow was for all practical purposes having to clear a 2 1/2" handle!  That's a whole lot of paradox.

So, that's what I'm thinking.  If I am astray on any or all of the above, please enlighten me.  Or just humor me, nod and smile, and let me get it out of my system, even if you think it's all a bit pointless.   ;D  In the meantime, I'm going to go ahead and make up 45#, 50#, and 55# bare arrows and see what they do.  Why not?  I think one of them is going to be the lucky number.

Title: Re: Bare Shaft Tuning: The Saga Continues
Post by: bradsmith2010 on November 10, 2019, 09:50:27 am
Sounds like a plan.,Byron is a good friend of mine,..I hunted and shot with him quite a bit back in the day,,shot my first longbow kill,,on hunt with him,,,with bow he made me,,.his suggestions about how to shoot are with me today,.I never saw him do much bare shafting,,,he may have,,.he shot aluminum,,.he was fanatical about tuning bow and tiller..,..there is lots of info,.,and misinformation,..when the arrow hits the bulls eye,,,.its a mute point,.,
       I think the knowledge gained from bare shafting is great,..but to keep things simple,,,,once your alignment is better,,,,arrow spine and tuning will be much easier,..and u will be closer to shooting like Byron

also I want to add,, I am just guessing but I think you are pulling about 50 ish,, if the bow was made 60# at 28,,, you would be drawing about 25 or 26,, just guessing but putting a piece of tape at 25 inches as suggested and see where you are at when you shoot would take some of the guess work out ,,, or validate what the arrows are telling you,,,and I still think the 6 inch brace would be ok,, since you may not be drawing the bow to a full 28,, it would help make the bow a bit more forgiving with out putting undue strain,,